Math question

[Peter Bogdanoff]

Hi,

I’m seriously math deficient.

In my application’s preferences I have a slider that the user can set a value 
from +5 down to -5, where 0 is the default and the user can then modify that. 

The result is currently linear but I’m thinking that I want finer control 
around the zero midpoint but coarser results at either end of the control. So 
I’m needing a non-linear scale of some sort.

This is the current script. tData is a number 5 to -5. 60 was an arbitrary 
number chosen to provide similar results on the two platforms (a span of 600, 
which is the timescale of an audio file—I can vary the speed of time events by 
1 second):

function calcBlockOffsetGlobal tData
if the machine contains "x86" then
  put -300 into defaultSetting # Windows default   
   else
  put 80 into defaultSetting # Mac default   
   end if
   put defaultSetting + (60 * tData) into tOffset
   return tOffset
end calcBlockOffsetGlobal


How would one modify this to return tOffset as a smaller change when tData is 
near zero, and the opposite when tData is near the maximum?

Peter Bogdanoff
UCLA

ps. I saw a t-shirt yesterday that said “Well, another day passed and I didn't 
use Algebra."
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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Jim Byrnes]

On 02/25/2016 09:50 PM, Kay C Lan wrote:

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Jim Byrnes  wrote:

That worked, thank you very much.




And just in case you are wondering how it got that way, as you didn't type

any commands. My guess is that this property can be set within the Property
Inspector - typically accessed via the Object menu via, Object Inspector,
Card Inspector or Stack Inspector. You probably had this open when giving
the stack, label field and radio buttons names or other properties (labels,
size, default font etc). In the case of a stack the 'Can't Modify' property
is a checkbox towards the bottom of the Property Inspector. You probably
accidentally clicked on it - clicking on the words, not just the checkbox
will activate/deactivate each checkbox.



I think you are right.  I was looking around trying to get the look I 
wanted and probably hit something by mistake.


Regards,  Jim



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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Kay C Lan]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Jim Byrnes  wrote:

That worked, thank you very much.
>>
>
> And just in case you are wondering how it got that way, as you didn't type
any commands. My guess is that this property can be set within the Property
Inspector - typically accessed via the Object menu via, Object Inspector,
Card Inspector or Stack Inspector. You probably had this open when giving
the stack, label field and radio buttons names or other properties (labels,
size, default font etc). In the case of a stack the 'Can't Modify' property
is a checkbox towards the bottom of the Property Inspector. You probably
accidentally clicked on it - clicking on the words, not just the checkbox
will activate/deactivate each checkbox.
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Re: updating progress to user during long handler

[Kay C Lan]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 9:56 AM, jameshale  wrote:

>
> So from all this I can see that the messages are being passed, the screen
> is
> simply not updating.
>

Which of course is why everyone else responded as they did; it happens.

Now test some 'descending' wait after the text has been placed in the field:

wait 1 sec
wait 1 tick
wait 1 millisec

See if you can come to a compromise that allows the screen to refresh
without slowing the code.
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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Byrnes wrote:
> That worked, thank you very much.  I must say this is a friendly,
> helpful group.

This group is awesome!

Many years ago when I was first getting my head wrapped around how this 
engine works, back then it was called MetaCard and Kevin's company was 
just getting started.  I was having one heckuva time trying to 
understand how custom property sets worked, and to be honest I was far 
less patient than you. :)  It took Kevin and Scott Raney (original 
inventor of the engine) a few very patient emails to help me work 
through my issue, and eventually I slowed down, digested what they'd 
written, experimented some more, and it all sunk in.


Just been paying it forward ever since

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: updating progress to user during long handler

[jameshale]

Hi Kay,
Actually never thought of that (doh!)
Beeps in the updateme handler fire. - so the handler is getting the message
Breakpoints in updateme as well as following "send" in main routine show the
text appearing in the SPLASH stack.

So, the messages are being sent.
The updateme handler is being run (BEEP was sounded)
The field will update, WHEN a breakpoint is hit.
The field does not update (except for a flash just at the very end of the
main handler) when no breakpoints are present.

placing the update message in the message box (put "blah blah blah") opens
the message box but does NOT update it.

So from all this I can see that the messages are being passed, the screen is
simply not updating.



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Re: DataGrid

[stephen barncard]

Never mind, this all covered elsewhere. Brain fart ground zero.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:43 PM, stephen barncard <
stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com> wrote:

> Is there a function that 'simplify' or 'stupify' the text to look right in
> LC? Or do I have to search and replace 'certain' ones to fix the problem.
> Sorry if this has been covered a multitude of times... I have to re-import
> the text back into Filemaker at some point so it has to work round-trip.
>
> thanks
>
> sqb
>



Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Jim Byrnes]

On 02/25/2016 07:25 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jim Byrnes wrote:

 > On 02/25/2016 06:35 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >> Try this in the Message Box (replacing "YourStack" with your stack's
 >> name of course):
 >>
 >>put the mode of stack "YourStack" && the style of stack "YourStack"
 >>
 >
 > This results in: 2 toplevel

Hunch confirmed:  if you look up mode in the Dictionary you'll see the
mode is an integer that refers to the current state of the stack.

Stack modes can be made persistent with the style property, but you can
also temporarily change the mode of a stack without changing the
persistent style property by using the style name as a command, e.g.:

   palette "some stack"

...will open it as a palette, but if its style is toplevel then using:

   open stack "some stack"

...will open it in its style, toplevel.

There is one other way to affect mode, specific to mode 2:  that one's
cantModify, which can be affected by setting the stack's cantModify
property.

So if you run this in the Message Box you should be good to go:

   set the cantmodify of stack "YourStack" to false

Then save it, or you'll be back in this spot again next time you open it.



That worked, thank you very much.  I must say this is a friendly, 
helpful group.


Regards,  Jim


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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Byrnes wrote:

> On 02/25/2016 06:35 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> Try this in the Message Box (replacing "YourStack" with your stack's
>> name of course):
>>
>>put the mode of stack "YourStack" && the style of stack "YourStack"
>>
>
> This results in: 2 toplevel

Hunch confirmed:  if you look up mode in the Dictionary you'll see the 
mode is an integer that refers to the current state of the stack.


Stack modes can be made persistent with the style property, but you can 
also temporarily change the mode of a stack without changing the 
persistent style property by using the style name as a command, e.g.:


  palette "some stack"

...will open it as a palette, but if its style is toplevel then using:

  open stack "some stack"

...will open it in its style, toplevel.

There is one other way to affect mode, specific to mode 2:  that one's 
cantModify, which can be affected by setting the stack's cantModify 
property.


So if you run this in the Message Box you should be good to go:

  set the cantmodify of stack "YourStack" to false

Then save it, or you'll be back in this spot again next time you open it.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Jim Byrnes]

On 02/25/2016 06:35 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jim Byrnes wrote:

 > On 02/25/2016 04:50 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
 >> Try this in the Message Box:
 >>
 >>put the name of this stack && the mode of this stack
 >>
 >
 > Doing that results in:  stack "revMenubar" 2


This is my bad. I just realized after selecting the message box I did 
not select my stack before running your command,

 if I do the result is: stack "Passwords" 2


Hmmm...if your stack was toplevel then revMenubar wouldn't be "this
stack", suggesting that your stack's style property was changed.

Try this in the Message Box (replacing "YourStack" with your stack's
name of course):

   put the mode of stack "YourStack" && the style of stack "YourStack"



This results in: 2 toplevel




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DataGrid

[Trevor DeVore]

On Thursday, February 25, 2016, Terence Heaford > wrote:

>
> > On 25 Feb 2016, at 14:30, Trevor DeVore 
> wrote:
> >
> > I don't think this is the case. Widgets provide (or at least will
> provide)
> > an excellent platform for building out a custom control like a Widget.
>
> I am not sure precisely how Livecode builder works in comparison to the
> live code script engine but
>
> I assume they both compile to byte code.
>

 While how the code compiles is interesting, the more interesting part to
me is how widgets are rendered. A widget has an OnPaint event where you
specify what should be drawn in the widgets rectangle. You draw lines,
text, etc. using LCB drawing code. You only draw exactly what you
need. This is much more efficient than the engine rendering a lot of field
objects nested within multiple groups.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
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Re: DataGrid

[stephen barncard]

Ah, one more thing...I'm sure we've been here before on this forum but I've
been away from LC for a while.

The 'unicode crapola' issue seems to show up in text files imported from
Filemaker. These text files look fine in Textmate, but I always see this
distortion when imported into a livecode field. I see this in my own stack
creations and modTableField as well.

I think the major problem is the 'fancier' versions of the Quote characters
and the apostrophe, although there might be other characters.
I guess I have to "filter" the input.

Is there a function that 'simplify' or 'stupify' the text to look right in
LC? Or do I have to search and replace 'certain' ones to fix the problem.
Sorry if this has been covered a multitude of times... I have to re-import
the text back into Filemaker at some point so it has to work round-trip.

thanks

sqb


On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:06 PM, stephen barncard <
stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com> wrote:

> I'm exporting data out of Filemaker because I'm doing a tape archive and
> need to do things like a multiple non-contiguous search of all records from
> a dialog box and FM won't do that. I also need to clean up some Unicode
> crapola that didn't get translated.
>



Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: DataGrid

[BNig]

Hi Stephen,


Stephen Barncard-4 wrote
> Thanks guys.
> 
> Both Scott Rossi's solution and Bernd's were really well done.
> 
> In the end I chose modTableField which does everything I want... (and was
> about to go through the pain of creating...)
> This thing is FAST and really well designed. Thank you Bernd! Scott's has
> a
> beautiful UI but Bernd's will require few changes by me.

I am glad you like modTableField but of course Scott's UI is, well, a Scott
Rossi UI® :)
If you want to mod modTableField's UI feel free to contact me off list if
anything does not work the way you want. (modTableField can be finicky about
margins etc.)
Also there are some pretty advanced custom sorting options in modTableField
which might not be obvious at first glance, again feel free to ask.

Kind regards
Bernd



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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Byrnes wrote:

> On 02/25/2016 04:50 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> Try this in the Message Box:
>>
>>put the name of this stack && the mode of this stack
>>
>
> Doing that results in:  stack "revMenubar" 2

Hmmm...if your stack was toplevel then revMenubar wouldn't be "this 
stack", suggesting that your stack's style property was changed.


Try this in the Message Box (replacing "YourStack" with your stack's 
name of course):


  put the mode of stack "YourStack" && the style of stack "YourStack"


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: DataGrid

[Trevor DeVore]

On Thursday, February 25, 2016, Terence Heaford 
wrote:

>
> > On 25 Feb 2016, at 14:30, Trevor DeVore  > wrote:
> >
> > The number of rows shouldn't affect the scrolling speed. The DataGrid
> > doesn't create any more rows based on the amount of data. It only
> generates
> > enough controls to view the visible rows (+ a handful of others). The
> > number of columns can affect the scrolling as more controls have to be
> > created based on the number of columns.
>
>
> The number of visible rows on screen does affect the performance of the
> DataGrid.
>

Yes, I was referring to overall rows. Obviously anything visible on screen
affects performance.

I don't think the DataGrid will ever scroll as smoothly as something in
Cocoa. I think a widget based one could eventually. I could be wrong
though.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Jim Byrnes]

On 02/25/2016 04:50 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jim Byrnes wrote:

Here ctrl-tab toggles the tool palette. I tried a number of modifier
keys + another key combinations with no effect.  To me it looks like I
am stuck in run mode.  I can drag a control off of the palette and drop
it on the stack, but it just disappears.


Hmm...I wonder if somehow the cantModify of the stack became set, or
perhaps the stack's mode isn't toplevel.

Try this in the Message Box:

   put the name of this stack && the mode of this stack



Doing that results in:  stack "revMenubar" 2

Regards,  Jim


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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Mark Wieder]

On 02/25/2016 02:42 PM, Jim Byrnes wrote:


The other environments I have used had a control that was essentially a
box with a border around it. At the left end of the top border you could
embed a label in the border itself. You could then drop other controls
inside the box. It just called attention to certain controls.

I didn't see anything like that in Livecode and was experimenting to see
if I could create the effect.


Good. That's what I thought you were trying to accomplish.
With LiveCode that's done with a group. Try this:

create a new stack
drop a label field onto the stack
drop a couple of radio buttons onto the stack

now shift-click or drag the cursor to select them
from the Object menu select "Group Selected"
 (or just press control-G)

you'll probably want to fiddle with the visual aspects of the group:
double-click or right-click on one of the controls
 to bring up the property inspector
check 'showBorder'
enter a label for the group
check the unfortunately-named 'showName'

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Scott Rossi]

Two qualifications: I haven't followed this thread closely, and I haven't
played a great deal with the HTML5 build.  That said, does an HTML5
standalone have the ability to interact with the HTML of the surrounding
page?

If yes, it would seem to be relatively straightforward to do what most
HTML apps do, which is displaying video content in an iFrame, or embedded
video on the same page.  Perhaps this is even how player support will
eventually by provided by the LiveCode guys.  But if you need a solution
now, maybe this route is an option.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design




On 2/6/16, 7:57 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami"

wrote:

> 
>Are players expected to work in HTML5? I created a really simple stack
>with a button to fetch a remobe URL to an MP3 file, set the filename of a
>player on the card to that URL and start playing.
>
>really simpleŠ works on desktop like a charm.
>
>Fails in HTML5 standalone made with LC 8dp14
>
>I already bug reported this, but thought to ask here.
>
>streaming remote audio/video will be mission critical for us.
>
>BR



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Re: DataGrid

[zryip theSlug]

For experimenting datagrid things, you can also have a look to our
datagrid helper plugin:
http://www.aslugontheroad.com/ourproducts/2-what-is-dgh

A new version fully compatible with LC 8 will be available soon.


Best Regards,

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Scott Rossi  wrote:
> For those with simple needs, you might try:
> http://tactilemedia.com/blog/2015/11/07/table-lab/
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
>
>
>
> On 2/25/16, 9:13 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin"
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.com> wrote:
>
>>stephen barncard wrote:
>>
>>> ...back to a tabbed scrolling field
>>
>>No harm in that.  The DG was written to support both list and form row
>>types only because at the time the LC field object didn't allow
>>independent column alignment, needed for financial apps and others where
>>text may be left-aligned while numbers need to be right-aligned.
>>
>>Now that we have the tabAlign property we can use LC's native field
>>object for a wide range of cases we used to have to use the DG for.
>>
>>--
>>  Richard Gaskin
>>  Fourth World Systems
>>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>  
>>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
>
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-- 
Zryip TheSlug
http://www.aslugontheroad.com

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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Byrnes wrote:

Here ctrl-tab toggles the tool palette. I tried a number of modifier
keys + another key combinations with no effect.  To me it looks like I
am stuck in run mode.  I can drag a control off of the palette and drop
it on the stack, but it just disappears.


Hmm...I wonder if somehow the cantModify of the stack became set, or 
perhaps the stack's mode isn't toplevel.


Try this in the Message Box:

  put the name of this stack && the mode of this stack

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Jim Byrnes]

On 02/25/2016 03:53 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 02/25/2016 12:44 PM, Jim Byrnes wrote:

On 02/25/2016 11:16 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jim Byrnes wrote:
 > At the point the problem occurred I hadn't written a line of code.
 > I had dropped a label control on the card and expanded it's size.
 > Then I dropped 2 radio buttons inside the boundaries of the of the
 > label. I was renaming them and changing the label text when the
 > problem occurred.


I also can't replicate your problem, but I'm curious about what you were
trying to accomplish here... dropping radio buttons "inside the
boundaries of the label" will place them in front of the label (I'm not
going to get into the religious war of whether they're "above" or
"under" the label in the message path), but they're otherwise not
connected with the label.


When I start to teach myself a new language I usually read the docs, do 
some tutorials and for practice recreate a program I have written in 
other languages. In this case a simple little program to store some info 
in a sqlite db.


The other environments I have used had a control that was essentially a 
box with a border around it. At the left end of the top border you could 
embed a label in the border itself. You could then drop other controls 
inside the box. It just called attention to certain controls.


I didn't see anything like that in Livecode and was experimenting to see 
if I could create the effect.



I do find it buggy that if I follow your procedure and then click on the
label text to select the large-border label, I am then unable to select
the buttons, even though they are in front of the label, without first
clicking somewhere else to deselect the label field. I'll file a bug on
that one.

As far as the cursor changing to a hand, it sounds like you've entered
Browse mode instead of Edit mode. I don't use the tool palette myself,
but I think there may be a control-key sequence that toggles between the
modes, and you may have accidentally triggered that. In PowerTools the
sequence is control-tab, so you might give that a try.



Here ctrl-tab toggles the tool palette. I tried a number of modifier 
keys + another key combinations with no effect.  To me it looks like I 
am stuck in run mode.  I can drag a control off of the palette and drop 
it on the stack, but it just disappears.


Regards, Jim



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Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Paul Dupuis]

On 2/25/2016 4:40 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> Agreed.  Do you know if there's an enhancement request filed for that?

Thank you Richard.

I entered enhancement request #17022
(http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17022) for this.



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Re: Unable to select transparent buttons

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

I did report that... I guessed I missed the confirmation notification from the 
quality center.. it was confirmed... I was checking here to see if anyone else 
had that issue..

Thanks for the tip "shift click"...fantastic... it works..

 I'm deep into developing a new app and trying to stick to LC8  and "face the 
music"  but this was becoming a bit of a challenge... not being able to select 
things...




On February 25, 2016 at 11:44:41 AM, BNig 
(bernd.niggem...@uni-wh.de) wrote:

Hi Brahma,

isn't that the same bug you reported here?

http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17015

When you click on a button that you can not select click on the button with
the shift-key down. This unselects the image and then you can click on the
transparent (or opaque) button and it will be selected.

Kind regards
Bernd
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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Mark Wieder]

Bug report #17021 filed.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Jim Byrnes]

On 02/25/2016 03:14 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jim Byrnes wrote:
 > I just tried to recreate what happened,but could not get it to happen
 > again. So I guess it is not reproducible.
 >
 > I did restore the file from trash and can send it to you if you think
 > that it would be helpful. I just transferred the file to my laptop
 > which is also running Ubuntu 14.04 and it has the same behavior there.

Without a recipe it would be unlikely I could do anything useful with it.

But if you do get a recipe please post the bug report number here and
I'll check the recipe on my system to help triage the report.



Ok, I'll play with it some more to see if I can reproduce it.

Regards,  Jim


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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Mark Wieder]

On 02/25/2016 12:44 PM, Jim Byrnes wrote:

On 02/25/2016 11:16 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jim Byrnes wrote:
 > At the point the problem occurred I hadn't written a line of code.
 > I had dropped a label control on the card and expanded it's size.
 > Then I dropped 2 radio buttons inside the boundaries of the of the
 > label. I was renaming them and changing the label text when the
 > problem occurred.


I also can't replicate your problem, but I'm curious about what you were 
trying to accomplish here... dropping radio buttons "inside the 
boundaries of the label" will place them in front of the label (I'm not 
going to get into the religious war of whether they're "above" or 
"under" the label in the message path), but they're otherwise not 
connected with the label.


I do find it buggy that if I follow your procedure and then click on the 
label text to select the large-border label, I am then unable to select 
the buttons, even though they are in front of the label, without first 
clicking somewhere else to deselect the label field. I'll file a bug on 
that one.


As far as the cursor changing to a hand, it sounds like you've entered 
Browse mode instead of Edit mode. I don't use the tool palette myself, 
but I think there may be a control-key sequence that toggles between the 
modes, and you may have accidentally triggered that. In PowerTools the 
sequence is control-tab, so you might give that a try.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Unable to select transparent buttons

[BNig]

Hi Brahma,

isn't that the same bug you reported here?

http://quality.livecode.com/show_bug.cgi?id=17015

When you click on a button that you can not select click on the button with
the shift-key down. This unselects the image and then you can click on the
transparent (or opaque) button and it will be selected.

Kind regards
Bernd


Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote
> Can anyone else confirm LC8 dp15
> 
> 1) make card
> 
> 2) add background graphic image, leave some area of the card uncovered..
> move the image down a bit...
> 
> 3) place several buttons on top of the imate
> 
> 4) ... set opacity  for all buttons to false
> 
> 5) Now.. try to use the pointer tool to select one of the buttons... the
> image is selected instead. No way to select a button.
> 
> 6) now click on some blank space on the background of the card
> 
> 7)  *then* click on one of the buttons, the button is selected.
> 
> Before reporting this I just want to see if my expectations are off... it
> would seem that if the 7)  is possible (selecting the button) that 5)
> should not happen (selection the image when mousedown on transparent
> button.





--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Unable-to-select-transparent-buttons-tp4701459p4701469.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Richard Gaskin]

Paul Dupuis wrote:

My point was it has been a long and glaring inconsistency in LiveCode
where the dataGrid is the ONLY LiveCode "thing" with no documentation in
LiveCode!


Agreed.  Do you know if there's an enhancement request filed for that?

Anyone in the community with some time to space could probably do a 
copy-and-paste with some markdown at Github to take care of that in an 
hour or two.



If the team gets to it before we do that's good too.  Either way, an 
enhancement request in the DB will help ensure it's not forgotten.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Richard Gaskin]

Matt Maier wrote:
> Thanks for that overview Richard, it helped me!

If you read that post to the end you should get a medal. :)  More 
long-winded than even my user group presentations.  Glad it was useful.



> Given option (b), will the entire livecode engine have to run
> client-side, or will there be a way to let the engine run on a server?

That's a deep question.

An old friend of mine suggested, "The key to programming is finding the 
right dividing lines."


That applies to so much, from factoring code to managing teams, and with 
client-server apps I don't believe there's a single best answer.


Consider three example apps:  calculator, animated greeting card, and 
RSS aggregator.


With the calculator you could go either way, depending on the nature of 
the calculation.  If it's just arithmetic it probably makes the most 
sense to do it all in the client, But I have one medical app where the 
caluclations are based on values in lookup tables that would be 
cumbersome if we had to first download them to the client, so for that 
the client is pretty slim and it just sends the input values to the 
server who does the lookups and the arithmetic on them and sends back 
the answer.


An animated greeting card could conceivably be done on a server using a 
canvas object on the client side with web sockets or other method by 
which the canvas gets updated from the server for every frame.  But 
animations are computationally expensive, and if serving a lot of user 
the server would have to maintain quite a high load, and pushing out 
each frame is a lot of ongoing traffic, so for that one I'd put 
everything on the client.


With an RSS aggregator, all the client really wants is a list of news 
stories, but to get those news stories requires some process to download 
them (and hopefully politely, within the update limits specified by the 
publisher in the feed), parse them, sort them, filter out the irrelevant 
ones, rank the rest, and then wrap 'em up in HTML for display.   If the 
client had to do all the work it would put more load on the publishers 
than is truly needed, and require a lot of work making for a slow UI. 
If you had a server-side process that maintained the feeds in question 
then most of the work is done only once, publisher servers aren't 
overtaxed, and the client gets only the final output HTML (or perhaps 
XML or JSON in which the client could do the HTML wrapping itself).


Three simple and fairly common uses cases, but only one of them has 
anything close to a simple answer.  Like so much in life, we just have 
to look at the problem at hand, pick our dividing lines as best we can 
with what we can know at the outside, and be willing to revise as we 
learn more.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Byrnes wrote:
> I just tried to recreate what happened,but could not get it to happen
> again. So I guess it is not reproducible.
>
> I did restore the file from trash and can send it to you if you think
> that it would be helpful. I just transferred the file to my laptop
> which is also running Ubuntu 14.04 and it has the same behavior there.

Without a recipe it would be unlikely I could do anything useful with it.

But if you do get a recipe please post the bug report number here and 
I'll check the recipe on my system to help triage the report.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Richard Gaskin]

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

>  We *can* fulfill our media delivery "vision"  on LC/Mobile and we
> can build a web UI using Rev igniter... so I'll be content to develop
> in that space for now.

A web UI is just text - HTML and CSS.  LiveCode is uncommonly good for 
processing text.  Whether using RevIgniter or any other framework or 
just task-specific code, what gets delivered to the browser is text of a 
sort LiveCode is very good at helping to produce.



>  This is more than you need to know, but part of the "back story"
> and "urgency" here was a hope  to keep LiveCode at the forefront of
> our in house toolbox. Another new young person -- who already went
> thru the Livecode University has switched to learning Python and will
> soon be developing HTML5 on that platform, because  it needs to run
> in a browser/WordPress iFrame.

Python doesn't run in a browser any more than LiveCode does.  An iFrame 
isn't at all Python-specific, it's an HTML tag (though for compatibility 
with iOS browsers he may want to use scrolling DIVs with XMLHttpRequest 
instead; last time I had frame-dependent content iPads didn't render it 
well so per Apple's tech notes I revised it with DIVs loaded via XHR).


Web UIs are just text - HTML and CSS.  Both Python and LiveCode are good 
for processing text, but there's an argument that it's a little easier 
and perhaps even faster in LiveCode.  Whether using Python or LiveCode 
or anything else, what gets delivered to the browser is text.


Python's a fine language.  But so is LiveCode.  Both have similar use 
cases, though given the early state of Python deployment packages for 
mobile I think it's safe to suggest LC is more mature for native mobile 
apps.   And given the integration of GUI elements as native objects in 
LC compared to the traditional approach Python takes in which GUIs are 
an afterthought, I'd say LC has at least a modest edge there too.


But for delivering web UIs, both do well at text processing and that's 
really all that task is as far as the work done on the server.  And 
although I'd love to see more head-to-head benchmarks, what little I've 
seen suggests LC may be slightly more efficient in some areas than 
Python (chunk expressions are truly wonderful).


The one area where Python has an unquestionable advantage is the size 
and engagement of its audience.  Sooo many libraries available for it.


We'll get there too, but in the meantime all work in either language 
means a lot of unique code, and LC is every bit as solid a choice as Python.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Jim Byrnes]

On 02/25/2016 11:16 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jim Byrnes wrote:
 > At the point the problem occurred I hadn't written a line of code.
 > I had dropped a label control on the card and expanded it's size.
 > Then I dropped 2 radio buttons inside the boundaries of the of the
 > label. I was renaming them and changing the label text when the
 > problem occurred.

Sounds like a bug, and if you're able to find a recipe to reproduce that
please do file a bug report.

FWIW I use LC in Ubuntu daily (mostly 14.04, but I have two machines
running Ubuntu 15.10, at least until April when all will be upgraded to
the new LTS), and while I haven't seen this issue myself I'd be happy to
run any tests you can come up with to confirm the behavior so we can
help see it fixed.



Richard,

I just tried to recreate what happened,but could not get it to happen 
again. So I guess it is not reproducible.


I did restore the file from trash and can send it to you if you think 
that it would be helpful. I just transferred the file to my laptop which 
is also running Ubuntu 14.04 and it has the same behavior there.


Regards,  Jim


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Re: Content Property in Inspector for Fields

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

Ok found it:

"styled-text"

No way to expand this as in older inspectors... right?



On February 25, 2016 at 10:29:51 AM, Colin Holgate 
(colinholg...@gmail.com) wrote:

Did you mean the field contents? It’s immediately under the name in the 
inspector.
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Re: Unable to select transparent buttons

[dunbarx]

I know you mentioned LC8 specifically. I just want to say that in 6.7 there is 
no issue selecting a button straightway.


Craig Newman



-Original Message-
From: Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami 
To: How LiveCode 
Sent: Thu, Feb 25, 2016 3:25 pm
Subject: Unable to select transparent buttons

Can anyone else confirm LC8 dp15

1) make card

2) add background graphic image, leave some area of the card uncovered.. move 
the image down a bit...

3) place several buttons on top of the imate

4) ... set opacity  for all buttons to false

5) Now.. try to use the pointer tool to select one of the buttons... the image 
is selected instead. No way to select a button.

6) now click on some blank space on the background of the card

7)  *then* click on one of the buttons, the button is selected.

Before reporting this I just want to see if my expectations are off... it would 
seem that if the 7)  is possible (selecting the button) that 5) should not 
happen (selection the image when mousedown on transparent button.
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Re: Content Property in Inspector for Fields

[Colin Holgate]

Did you mean the field contents? It’s immediately under the name in the 
inspector.


> On Feb 25, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  
> wrote:
> 
> LC8 DP 15
> 
> Can anyone show me where the content field is in the property inspector for a 
> field? I can't find it.
> 


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Content Property in Inspector for Fields

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

LC8 DP 15

Can anyone show me where the content field is in the property inspector for a 
field? I can't find it.


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Unable to select transparent buttons

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

Can anyone else confirm LC8 dp15

1) make card

2) add background graphic image, leave some area of the card uncovered.. move 
the image down a bit...

3) place several buttons on top of the imate

4) ... set opacity  for all buttons to false

5) Now.. try to use the pointer tool to select one of the buttons... the image 
is selected instead. No way to select a button.

6) now click on some blank space on the background of the card

7)  *then* click on one of the buttons, the button is selected.

Before reporting this I just want to see if my expectations are off... it would 
seem that if the 7)  is possible (selecting the button) that 5) should not 
happen (selection the image when mousedown on transparent button.
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Re: beggars be choosers

[Phil Davis]

Hi Mick,

Maybe this will answer your question:
http://downloads.livecode.com/livecode/

As you can see on that page, Community Editions start at 6.0.1.

Is that what you were asking for?

Thanks -
Phil Davis



On 2/25/16 5:05 AM, Mick Collins wrote:

I’m one of those who can’t afford anything more than the community version of 
LC (for reasons of money, testing / experiment time). I’m wondering whether 
there will be a version 6._ or 7._ which will come out before the first 
sanctified version of 8 and when the next version (of 6, 7, and/or 8) is 
expected to come out. Thanks,
-  Mick
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--
Phil Davis


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Re: Hi-Res Images at Natural Size?

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

 
On February 25, 2016 at 8:36:47 AM, Scott Rossi 
(sc...@tactilemedia.com(mailto:sc...@tactilemedia.com)) wrote:
> i.e. In other words, the engine will use as many device pixels as it has  
> to render things (images are scaled from the original source size direct  
> to the screen - and not via the number of logical pixels).  


That's good to know... I was wondering how some of my "super optimized" images 
were still looking good attributing this to something magical in the 
imgMagick/mozjpeg cmds that I am running from inside LC as shell..


/usr/local/Cellar/imagemagick/6.9.1-4/bin/convert "##IMGINPUT##" pnm:- | 
/usr/local/Cellar/mozjpeg/3.1/bin/cjpeg -quality ##QUALITY## > "##IMGOUTPUT##"

when in fact it's just the device that is doing the good work.

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Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

On February 25, 2016 at 9:02:29 AM, Richard Wrote:
> I don't know if any of this rambling post is helpful, but my aim here is
> just to point out the very difficult task being undertaken here. And while
> we can expect Peter's excellent work to continue to make big strides, I
> think it may be helpful to keep expectations in check, since we're
> attempting to bridge two very different worlds. Not all life forms that
> thrive on one planet can survive at all on another.


Agreed. I guess I was being naive in the understanding of the level of changes 
required to encompass media delivery, and I will certainly keep my expectations 
in check... My apologies for banging the drum.

 We *can* fulfill our media delivery "vision"  on LC/Mobile and we can build a 
web UI using Rev igniter... so I'll be content to develop in that space for now.

I hereby officially switch hats  to "infinite patience"

Richard Wrote:

"These  are very different worlds; there is no magic pony. >

> Option a) would allow us to export LC player controls as HTML5 player
> objects, but would require you to write any scripts you need in JavaScript.

That's kind of what I thought could work, even as an interim solution. Our use 
case doesn't really require the full spectrum of native LiveCode player 
parameters. Open, play, pause and stop and dismiss would suffice for 95% of the 
requirements. In my naivete, targeting the innerHTML with a small html5 Video 
tag seemed trivial... obviously I am wrong.

 This is more than you need to know, but part of the "back story" and "urgency" 
here was a hope  to keep LiveCode at the forefront of our in house toolbox. 
Another new young person -- who already went thru the Livecode University has 
switched to learning Python and will soon be developing HTML5 on that platform, 
because  it needs to run in a browser/WordPress iFrame.  Of course I have to 
shake my head at how many hours it will take him to do the smallest 
framework... and the scope of what he will be able to accomplish relative to a 
full LC stack will be highly compromised...even the scope on the spec of that 
project was chopped down by 85%...as "not doable now..."  when the whole 
original spec could have been done in LiveCode in a week(s)... (except for the 
video streaming)

We had to reach out to a HTML5 pro in Belarus, to get a leg up on how to do the 
first one and now we hope to learn how to do it ourselveshaving Python 
skills on the team I suppose will be userful, I would have much preferred he 
focused on LiveCode because I believe it would have been to our greater 
advantageands more "fun" for him in the long run.  But, I can run his modules 
inside the browser widget in our next LC Mobile app... so we are OK for now.  
And it's going to take him s long to get to where he wants to be that 
probably the HTML5 thing in LC will be ready even before he can think about 
module #2...

Officially now wearing the hat of "infinite patience."

BR


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Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Matt Maier]

That was too abstract and hypothetical for me to be sure I followed
correctly.

In the approach the Livecode team is taking now, is it accurate to say that
the html5 standalone bundles up the livecode engine with any app-specific
objects/scripts and pushes the whole thing into the client browser, such
that all of the (supportable) functionality runs client-side?

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Mark Waddingham  wrote:

> I think most modern web apps you see run ui locally (client side) and then
> use an http-based server API to manage the 'cloud' side.
>
> The advantage of this approach is that you end up with a good separation
> between client and server, meaning the client can be implemented on any
> platform (and using the same code - at least when using LiveCode).
>
> I wouldn't, however, rule out some means of defining server side behavior
> alongside the client side behavior and have LiveCode 'do the right thing'.
> However, that is perhaps a bit further down the line... We have a fair bit
> more work to do on the html5 port first!
>
> Mark.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 25 Feb 2016, at 19:02, Matt Maier  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for that overview Richard, it helped me!
> >
> > Given option (b), will the entire livecode engine have to run
> client-side,
> > or will there be a way to let the engine run on a server?
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Richard Gaskin <
> ambassa...@fourthworld.com
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
> >>
> >>> So if we can run Landstat Satellites and entire Universities
> >>> (vienna), I humbly submit that it's time to realize "you did it" when
> >>> it comes to data management...and to put media delivery at the
> >>> forefront of the agenda not at the end of the agenda.
> >>>
> >>> The current generation is all about audio and video. "expect... all
> >>> at once" Many of us have been asking for audio/video improvements
> >>> for well over the past ten years. So it's not as if we are coming out
> >>> of the blue
> >>
> >> We still don't have point-and-click data binding with a built-in MVC
> >> framework.
> >>
> >> But in all fairness those are things the community can do in script,
> >> whereas multimedia playback is very much an engine concern.
> >>
> >> I bring up MVC only to suggest that your priorities may not be mine, and
> >> mine may not be others'.
> >>
> >> As a Linux user I haven't been able to even just play a video at all in
> >> several years, while it's possible (with some codec/format limitations)
> on
> >> Windows and Mac users enjoy support for the latest OS media APIs.
> >>
> >> Since most of my current work is in data-intensive productivity apps
> this
> >> hasn't held me back; I share the story only to point out that priorities
> >> are as broad and varied as this community.
> >>
> >>
> >>> "difficult port" ?? there are any number of media player frameworks
> >>> built on JS... Perhaps I'm very dense, but JS is use for media
> >>> deliver *everywhere*... It's not about a player exactly.. but just to
> >>> be able to stream audio and video.
> >>>
> >>> So back to my question: is there another way to play media using
> >>> other means beside a player?
> >>
> >> Yes: let the browser do it.
> >>
> >> But to do that, you'd need to let the browser do it all.
> >>
> >> There are two very different worlds here:  the desktop, run with OS APIs
> >> on binary structures and machine code; and the web, run with browser
> specs
> >> on textual data and JavaScript.
> >>
> >> These worlds do not collide.  They are fundamentally different, designed
> >> for very different tasks.
> >>
> >> Before LC's HTML initiative, the two worlds were for the most part quite
> >> separate.  No one expects to use XCode to write C++ apps in Cocoa and
> >> somehow run them in a browser.
> >>
> >> What LC is attempting here is a significant departure from a long
> history
> >> in which the two worlds, desktop and web, are very separate from one
> >> another.
> >>
> >> Given that the only execution engine commonly available in browsers is
> >> JavaScript, to migrate applications made in LiveCode into the confines
> of a
> >> web browser requires either of two approaches:
> >>
> >> a) Translate LC-native objects to browser-native HTML/CSS, and LC-native
> >> scripts to JavaScript.
> >>
> >> b) Translate the LC engine to JavaScript so LC-native objects and
> scripts
> >> need no translation.
> >>
> >> Either is a difficult task.
> >>
> >> Option a) makes it relatively easy to get appearances, but for
> >> functionality requires translating every line of LiveCode script into
> >> JavaScript.
> >>
> >> The appearance part isn't that hard:  with a few hours it's possible to
> >> translate native LC objects into their HTML/CSS equivalents rather
> >> satisfyingly, with the result being lean browser-native layouts.
> >>
> >> But the functionality is not so easy. LiveCode and JavaScript are so
> very
> >> different in 

Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Mark Waddingham]

When it comes down to it, there is a direct parallel between wanting to use 
native html5 elements in a LiveCode html5 app and wanting to use native (system 
provided) controls on mobile.

There are still a couple of technical hurdles to overcome to make this possible 
in the html5 port, but for the most part it comes down to having a bridge 
between LCB and JavaScript when running in a browser. You can view the JS APIs 
as no different from system APIs on any other platform and in the same way as 
LCB can bridge (albeit in a very low-level way right now) to C APIs directly, 
the Html5 engine will eventually be able to bridge to JS APIs.

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 25 Feb 2016, at 18:23, Richard Gaskin  wrote:
> 
> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
> 
> >  So if we can run Landstat Satellites and entire Universities
> > (vienna), I humbly submit that it's time to realize "you did it" when
> > it comes to data management...and to put media delivery at the
> > forefront of the agenda not at the end of the agenda.
> >
> > The current generation is all about audio and video. "expect... all
> > at once" Many of us have been asking for audio/video improvements
> > for well over the past ten years. So it's not as if we are coming out
> > of the blue
> 
> We still don't have point-and-click data binding with a built-in MVC 
> framework.
> 
> But in all fairness those are things the community can do in script, whereas 
> multimedia playback is very much an engine concern.
> 
> I bring up MVC only to suggest that your priorities may not be mine, and mine 
> may not be others'.
> 
> As a Linux user I haven't been able to even just play a video at all in 
> several years, while it's possible (with some codec/format limitations) on 
> Windows and Mac users enjoy support for the latest OS media APIs.
> 
> Since most of my current work is in data-intensive productivity apps this 
> hasn't held me back; I share the story only to point out that priorities are 
> as broad and varied as this community.
> 
> 
> > "difficult port" ?? there are any number of media player frameworks
> > built on JS... Perhaps I'm very dense, but JS is use for media
> > deliver *everywhere*... It's not about a player exactly.. but just to
> > be able to stream audio and video.
> >
> > So back to my question: is there another way to play media using
> > other means beside a player?
> 
> Yes: let the browser do it.
> 
> But to do that, you'd need to let the browser do it all.
> 
> There are two very different worlds here:  the desktop, run with OS APIs on 
> binary structures and machine code; and the web, run with browser specs on 
> textual data and JavaScript.
> 
> These worlds do not collide.  They are fundamentally different, designed for 
> very different tasks.
> 
> Before LC's HTML initiative, the two worlds were for the most part quite 
> separate.  No one expects to use XCode to write C++ apps in Cocoa and somehow 
> run them in a browser.
> 
> What LC is attempting here is a significant departure from a long history in 
> which the two worlds, desktop and web, are very separate from one another.
> 
> Given that the only execution engine commonly available in browsers is 
> JavaScript, to migrate applications made in LiveCode into the confines of a 
> web browser requires either of two approaches:
> 
> a) Translate LC-native objects to browser-native HTML/CSS, and LC-native 
> scripts to JavaScript.
> 
> b) Translate the LC engine to JavaScript so LC-native objects and scripts 
> need no translation.
> 
> Either is a difficult task.
> 
> Option a) makes it relatively easy to get appearances, but for functionality 
> requires translating every line of LiveCode script into JavaScript.
> 
> The appearance part isn't that hard:  with a few hours it's possible to 
> translate native LC objects into their HTML/CSS equivalents rather 
> satisfyingly, with the result being lean browser-native layouts.
> 
> But the functionality is not so easy. LiveCode and JavaScript are so very 
> different in their syntax, logic, event and object models, that translation 
> from one to the other is a mind-bendingly difficult task.
> 
> Option b) is where we're headed instead, moving the entire LC engine into the 
> browser by translating roughly three quarters of a million lines of C++ into 
> JavaScript.
> 
> This allows LiveCode scripts and objects to be handled more or less how 
> they're handled in the desktop engine, without needing to translate LiveCode 
> scripts.
> 
> But given that the desktop and the web are such fundamentally different 
> platforms, neither approach can be expected to be a seamless move. These are 
> very different worlds; there is no magic pony.
> 
> Option a) would allow us to export LC player controls as HTML5 player 
> objects, but would require you to write any scripts you need in JavaScript.
> 
> Option b) lets all your LC objects scripts go along for the ride since the LC 
> engine 

Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Mark Waddingham]

I think most modern web apps you see run ui locally (client side) and then use 
an http-based server API to manage the 'cloud' side.

The advantage of this approach is that you end up with a good separation 
between client and server, meaning the client can be implemented on any 
platform (and using the same code - at least when using LiveCode).

I wouldn't, however, rule out some means of defining server side behavior 
alongside the client side behavior and have LiveCode 'do the right thing'. 
However, that is perhaps a bit further down the line... We have a fair bit more 
work to do on the html5 port first!

Mark.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 25 Feb 2016, at 19:02, Matt Maier  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for that overview Richard, it helped me!
> 
> Given option (b), will the entire livecode engine have to run client-side,
> or will there be a way to let the engine run on a server?
> 
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Richard Gaskin > wrote:
> 
>> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
>> 
>>> So if we can run Landstat Satellites and entire Universities
>>> (vienna), I humbly submit that it's time to realize "you did it" when
>>> it comes to data management...and to put media delivery at the
>>> forefront of the agenda not at the end of the agenda.
>>> 
>>> The current generation is all about audio and video. "expect... all
>>> at once" Many of us have been asking for audio/video improvements
>>> for well over the past ten years. So it's not as if we are coming out
>>> of the blue
>> 
>> We still don't have point-and-click data binding with a built-in MVC
>> framework.
>> 
>> But in all fairness those are things the community can do in script,
>> whereas multimedia playback is very much an engine concern.
>> 
>> I bring up MVC only to suggest that your priorities may not be mine, and
>> mine may not be others'.
>> 
>> As a Linux user I haven't been able to even just play a video at all in
>> several years, while it's possible (with some codec/format limitations) on
>> Windows and Mac users enjoy support for the latest OS media APIs.
>> 
>> Since most of my current work is in data-intensive productivity apps this
>> hasn't held me back; I share the story only to point out that priorities
>> are as broad and varied as this community.
>> 
>> 
>>> "difficult port" ?? there are any number of media player frameworks
>>> built on JS... Perhaps I'm very dense, but JS is use for media
>>> deliver *everywhere*... It's not about a player exactly.. but just to
>>> be able to stream audio and video.
>>> 
>>> So back to my question: is there another way to play media using
>>> other means beside a player?
>> 
>> Yes: let the browser do it.
>> 
>> But to do that, you'd need to let the browser do it all.
>> 
>> There are two very different worlds here:  the desktop, run with OS APIs
>> on binary structures and machine code; and the web, run with browser specs
>> on textual data and JavaScript.
>> 
>> These worlds do not collide.  They are fundamentally different, designed
>> for very different tasks.
>> 
>> Before LC's HTML initiative, the two worlds were for the most part quite
>> separate.  No one expects to use XCode to write C++ apps in Cocoa and
>> somehow run them in a browser.
>> 
>> What LC is attempting here is a significant departure from a long history
>> in which the two worlds, desktop and web, are very separate from one
>> another.
>> 
>> Given that the only execution engine commonly available in browsers is
>> JavaScript, to migrate applications made in LiveCode into the confines of a
>> web browser requires either of two approaches:
>> 
>> a) Translate LC-native objects to browser-native HTML/CSS, and LC-native
>> scripts to JavaScript.
>> 
>> b) Translate the LC engine to JavaScript so LC-native objects and scripts
>> need no translation.
>> 
>> Either is a difficult task.
>> 
>> Option a) makes it relatively easy to get appearances, but for
>> functionality requires translating every line of LiveCode script into
>> JavaScript.
>> 
>> The appearance part isn't that hard:  with a few hours it's possible to
>> translate native LC objects into their HTML/CSS equivalents rather
>> satisfyingly, with the result being lean browser-native layouts.
>> 
>> But the functionality is not so easy. LiveCode and JavaScript are so very
>> different in their syntax, logic, event and object models, that translation
>> from one to the other is a mind-bendingly difficult task.
>> 
>> Option b) is where we're headed instead, moving the entire LC engine into
>> the browser by translating roughly three quarters of a million lines of C++
>> into JavaScript.
>> 
>> This allows LiveCode scripts and objects to be handled more or less how
>> they're handled in the desktop engine, without needing to translate
>> LiveCode scripts.
>> 
>> But given that the desktop and the web are such fundamentally different
>> platforms, neither approach can be expected to be a seamless move. These
>> 

Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Matt Maier]

Thanks for that overview Richard, it helped me!

Given option (b), will the entire livecode engine have to run client-side,
or will there be a way to let the engine run on a server?

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
>
> >  So if we can run Landstat Satellites and entire Universities
> > (vienna), I humbly submit that it's time to realize "you did it" when
> > it comes to data management...and to put media delivery at the
> > forefront of the agenda not at the end of the agenda.
> >
> > The current generation is all about audio and video. "expect... all
> > at once" Many of us have been asking for audio/video improvements
> > for well over the past ten years. So it's not as if we are coming out
> > of the blue
>
> We still don't have point-and-click data binding with a built-in MVC
> framework.
>
> But in all fairness those are things the community can do in script,
> whereas multimedia playback is very much an engine concern.
>
> I bring up MVC only to suggest that your priorities may not be mine, and
> mine may not be others'.
>
> As a Linux user I haven't been able to even just play a video at all in
> several years, while it's possible (with some codec/format limitations) on
> Windows and Mac users enjoy support for the latest OS media APIs.
>
> Since most of my current work is in data-intensive productivity apps this
> hasn't held me back; I share the story only to point out that priorities
> are as broad and varied as this community.
>
>
> > "difficult port" ?? there are any number of media player frameworks
> > built on JS... Perhaps I'm very dense, but JS is use for media
> > deliver *everywhere*... It's not about a player exactly.. but just to
> > be able to stream audio and video.
> >
> > So back to my question: is there another way to play media using
> > other means beside a player?
>
> Yes: let the browser do it.
>
> But to do that, you'd need to let the browser do it all.
>
> There are two very different worlds here:  the desktop, run with OS APIs
> on binary structures and machine code; and the web, run with browser specs
> on textual data and JavaScript.
>
> These worlds do not collide.  They are fundamentally different, designed
> for very different tasks.
>
> Before LC's HTML initiative, the two worlds were for the most part quite
> separate.  No one expects to use XCode to write C++ apps in Cocoa and
> somehow run them in a browser.
>
> What LC is attempting here is a significant departure from a long history
> in which the two worlds, desktop and web, are very separate from one
> another.
>
> Given that the only execution engine commonly available in browsers is
> JavaScript, to migrate applications made in LiveCode into the confines of a
> web browser requires either of two approaches:
>
> a) Translate LC-native objects to browser-native HTML/CSS, and LC-native
> scripts to JavaScript.
>
> b) Translate the LC engine to JavaScript so LC-native objects and scripts
> need no translation.
>
> Either is a difficult task.
>
> Option a) makes it relatively easy to get appearances, but for
> functionality requires translating every line of LiveCode script into
> JavaScript.
>
> The appearance part isn't that hard:  with a few hours it's possible to
> translate native LC objects into their HTML/CSS equivalents rather
> satisfyingly, with the result being lean browser-native layouts.
>
> But the functionality is not so easy. LiveCode and JavaScript are so very
> different in their syntax, logic, event and object models, that translation
> from one to the other is a mind-bendingly difficult task.
>
> Option b) is where we're headed instead, moving the entire LC engine into
> the browser by translating roughly three quarters of a million lines of C++
> into JavaScript.
>
> This allows LiveCode scripts and objects to be handled more or less how
> they're handled in the desktop engine, without needing to translate
> LiveCode scripts.
>
> But given that the desktop and the web are such fundamentally different
> platforms, neither approach can be expected to be a seamless move. These
> are very different worlds; there is no magic pony.
>
> Option a) would allow us to export LC player controls as HTML5 player
> objects, but would require you to write any scripts you need in JavaScript.
>
> Option b) lets all your LC objects scripts go along for the ride since the
> LC engine they depend on is now a JavaScript object, but it means you don't
> have access to browser-native objects like HTML5 media support.
>
> If one were inclined to pursue option a), it could be possible to take the
> approach Toolbook and others have, in which functionality targeted for web
> deployment is limited to calls in LC libraries for which matching
> JavaScript libraries are provided.  I first suggested this as a solution
> here in 2003, but no one was interested enough to help see it through.
> Could still be done, though, just 

Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Paul Dupuis]

On 2/25/2016 11:44 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> I did a quick search on Google for "livecode data grid lessons", and
> found this as the first hit:
> 

Richard helps make my earlier point about documentation. Yes, there are
lessons on the LiveCode site and there is a large PDF on the LiveCode
site and I personally have both bookmarked. However, both of which, if
you are in the LiveCode IDE (any version), you must SEARCH for outside
of the LiveCode IDE. Every other LiveCode provided
extension/library/enhancement (revZIP, revXML, etc. etc.) whether
external or library (libURL, etc.) you can access documentation on from
within the LiveCode IDE. It may be an easy search to find the DataGrid
information online (Googling "livecode datagrid" does it), but is is
still a search outside of the IDE.

I was not so much specifically asking about converting the DataGrid to a
Widget. I use the DataGrid as it is just fine and don't particularly
need it converted to a Widget.

My point was it has been a long and glaring inconsistency in LiveCode
where the dataGrid is the ONLY LiveCode "thing" with no documentation in
LiveCode!

There should be at least ONE of the following:

The DataGrid APIs in the Dictionary
A link to the DataGrid PDF documentation in the Help menu
A single dictionary entry for the DataGrid that provides a link to the
lessons and PDF

I would have like to have seen this inconsistency fixed in LC 6.x or 7.x
and the only reason I mentioned version 8dp15 is that version 8 is where
the changes are occurring. I seem to recall seeing some sort of
cummunity effort to improve the dictionary and documentation. I
apologize that I don't remember the details of this effort or how to
submit this to that effort, but that effort should add this to the list
of doc issues to resolve.


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Re: DataGrid

[Scott Rossi]

For those with simple needs, you might try:
http://tactilemedia.com/blog/2015/11/07/table-lab/


Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design




On 2/25/16, 9:13 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Richard Gaskin"
 wrote:

>stephen barncard wrote:
>
>> ...back to a tabbed scrolling field
>
>No harm in that.  The DG was written to support both list and form row
>types only because at the time the LC field object didn't allow
>independent column alignment, needed for financial apps and others where
>text may be left-aligned while numbers need to be right-aligned.
>
>Now that we have the tabAlign property we can use LC's native field
>object for a wide range of cases we used to have to use the DG for.
>
>-- 
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com



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Re: Hi-Res Images at Natural Size?

[Scott Rossi]

Where is this setting Colin?  Not seeing any option in v8.2 simulator, so
is it only in the most recent version?

Thanks & Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design




On 2/25/16, 4:20 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Colin Holgate"
 wrote:

>Small tip on the zooming your desktop image: The zooming feature has an
>option to do smoothing, which I imagine defaults to on. You want to turn
>that off if you are using zooming as a debug technique. With it turned
>off, zoom becomes a very useful way to analyze antialiasing issues.
>
>
>
>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 7:04 AM, Mark Waddingham  wrote:
>> 
>> On my non-Retina iMac, zooming the desktop in, the image is 4x4 solid
>>dark blue - because it is downscaling by a factor of two, each pixel
>>will be an average of 4 pixels - 50% black, 50% blue which is 50% blue
>>(0,0,127 or thereabouts).
>
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Re: Hi-Res Images at Natural Size?

[Mark Waddingham]

I think Colin means the system accessibility zoom feature (which was what I was 
using).

It's on the accessibility tab of the system settings.

Mark

Sent from my iPhone

> On 25 Feb 2016, at 18:23, Scott Rossi  wrote:
> 
> Where is this setting Colin?  Not seeing any option in v8.2 simulator, so
> is it only in the most recent version?
> 
> Thanks & Regards,
> 
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/25/16, 4:20 AM, "use-livecode on behalf of Colin Holgate"
>  colinholg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Small tip on the zooming your desktop image: The zooming feature has an
>> option to do smoothing, which I imagine defaults to on. You want to turn
>> that off if you are using zooming as a debug technique. With it turned
>> off, zoom becomes a very useful way to analyze antialiasing issues.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 7:04 AM, Mark Waddingham  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On my non-Retina iMac, zooming the desktop in, the image is 4x4 solid
>>> dark blue - because it is downscaling by a factor of two, each pixel
>>> will be an average of 4 pixels - 50% black, 50% blue which is 50% blue
>>> (0,0,127 or thereabouts).
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?

[Richard Gaskin]

Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

>  So if we can run Landstat Satellites and entire Universities
> (vienna), I humbly submit that it's time to realize "you did it" when
> it comes to data management...and to put media delivery at the
> forefront of the agenda not at the end of the agenda.
>
> The current generation is all about audio and video. "expect... all
> at once" Many of us have been asking for audio/video improvements
> for well over the past ten years. So it's not as if we are coming out
> of the blue

We still don't have point-and-click data binding with a built-in MVC 
framework.


But in all fairness those are things the community can do in script, 
whereas multimedia playback is very much an engine concern.


I bring up MVC only to suggest that your priorities may not be mine, and 
mine may not be others'.


As a Linux user I haven't been able to even just play a video at all in 
several years, while it's possible (with some codec/format limitations) 
on Windows and Mac users enjoy support for the latest OS media APIs.


Since most of my current work is in data-intensive productivity apps 
this hasn't held me back; I share the story only to point out that 
priorities are as broad and varied as this community.



> "difficult port" ?? there are any number of media player frameworks
> built on JS... Perhaps I'm very dense, but JS is use for media
> deliver *everywhere*... It's not about a player exactly.. but just to
> be able to stream audio and video.
>
> So back to my question: is there another way to play media using
> other means beside a player?

Yes: let the browser do it.

But to do that, you'd need to let the browser do it all.

There are two very different worlds here:  the desktop, run with OS APIs 
on binary structures and machine code; and the web, run with browser 
specs on textual data and JavaScript.


These worlds do not collide.  They are fundamentally different, designed 
for very different tasks.


Before LC's HTML initiative, the two worlds were for the most part quite 
separate.  No one expects to use XCode to write C++ apps in Cocoa and 
somehow run them in a browser.


What LC is attempting here is a significant departure from a long 
history in which the two worlds, desktop and web, are very separate from 
one another.


Given that the only execution engine commonly available in browsers is 
JavaScript, to migrate applications made in LiveCode into the confines 
of a web browser requires either of two approaches:


a) Translate LC-native objects to browser-native HTML/CSS, and LC-native 
scripts to JavaScript.


b) Translate the LC engine to JavaScript so LC-native objects and 
scripts need no translation.


Either is a difficult task.

Option a) makes it relatively easy to get appearances, but for 
functionality requires translating every line of LiveCode script into 
JavaScript.


The appearance part isn't that hard:  with a few hours it's possible to 
translate native LC objects into their HTML/CSS equivalents rather 
satisfyingly, with the result being lean browser-native layouts.


But the functionality is not so easy. LiveCode and JavaScript are so 
very different in their syntax, logic, event and object models, that 
translation from one to the other is a mind-bendingly difficult task.


Option b) is where we're headed instead, moving the entire LC engine 
into the browser by translating roughly three quarters of a million 
lines of C++ into JavaScript.


This allows LiveCode scripts and objects to be handled more or less how 
they're handled in the desktop engine, without needing to translate 
LiveCode scripts.


But given that the desktop and the web are such fundamentally different 
platforms, neither approach can be expected to be a seamless move. 
These are very different worlds; there is no magic pony.


Option a) would allow us to export LC player controls as HTML5 player 
objects, but would require you to write any scripts you need in JavaScript.


Option b) lets all your LC objects scripts go along for the ride since 
the LC engine they depend on is now a JavaScript object, but it means 
you don't have access to browser-native objects like HTML5 media support.


If one were inclined to pursue option a), it could be possible to take 
the approach Toolbook and others have, in which functionality targeted 
for web deployment is limited to calls in LC libraries for which 
matching JavaScript libraries are provided.  I first suggested this as a 
solution here in 2003, but no one was interested enough to help see it 
through.  Could still be done, though, just not by myself.  And while 
the functionality such libraries provide would be limited, the 
intersection of things we need to do on both desktop and web is somewhat 
limited by nature anyway, so for some apps it may not be a bad option.


With option b), the one being pursued at the moment, there is the 
possibility that the LC engine code that handles media playback could be 
replaced 

Re: DataGrid

[Richard Gaskin]

Peter Haworth wrote:

> Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> Now that we have the tabAlign property we can use LC's native field
>> object for a wide range of cases we used to have to use the DG for.
>
> modTableField is a great alternative to a DG table.  Don't have the
> link to hand but hopefully Bernd will chime in.

Exactly.  There Bernd adds a nice header above a standard LC list field, 
very nicely done.


Eating my own dog food I did a quick search in Google for 
"modTableField" and turned up his repository:



--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: DataGrid

[Richard Gaskin]

Clarence P Martin wrote:
> Richard,
> Thanks, I will.  As I've discussed with you before, I have a tendency
> to look, maybe, a little too deeply into some things.

I think that's an occupation hazard of software development. :)

As much as we're all working towards the ideal of having as much 
documentation readily findable within the IDE as possible, I've found 
it's helpful with every language I've learned to employ Google or other 
web search engine when a problem lingers.


In the olden days the issue was that there were just too few learning 
resources for LC, but these days it's very much the opposite: between 
this list, the forums, Stack Overflow, social media, and countless blogs 
and other web sites, now the problem is that there's too much info in 
too many places.


Definitely the better problem to have. :)

And while we experiment with ways to provide a central index for all 
that ever-growing volume of stuff, Google provides a pretty good one we 
can use right now.


When learning SQL, JavaScipt, bash, Python, HTML, or most other 
languages, the web is really the only tool we have.  With LiveCode we 
have much more in the box, but a good web search engine is still as 
useful for us as it is for any other scripting community.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: DataGrid

[Thierry Douez]

Thanks to Bernd for this link:

http://berndniggemann.on-rev.com/modTableField/

Thierry


-- 

Thierry Douez - http://sunny-tdz.com
sunnYrex - sunnYtext2speech - sunnYperl - sunnYmidi - sunnYmage
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Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Richard Gaskin]

Mike Kerner wrote:
> Over in the Forums, the report is that DG will start to be worked on
> for LC8 on or about 3/15.

"The Forums" is a big place - for anyone interested in the discussion I 
believe Mike's referring to this thread:



The work noted there is for a specific enhancement request to support 
the convenience of allowing insertion/deletion of columns when using the 
list type of rows without replacing the data as a whole:



Given that most of us use tabbed fields for list views now that the 
native field object has tabAlign, I'm not sure how many will be able to 
take advantage of this enhancement.


Still, good to see it in progress, but not quite the same as the 
longer-term goal of rewriting the DG as a set of LCB Widgets.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: DataGrid

[Peter Haworth]

modTableField is a great alternative to a DG table.  Don't have the link to
hand but hopefully Bernd will chime in.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 9:13 AM Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> stephen barncard wrote:
>
> > ...back to a tabbed scrolling field
>
> No harm in that.  The DG was written to support both list and form row
> types only because at the time the LC field object didn't allow
> independent column alignment, needed for financial apps and others where
> text may be left-aligned while numbers need to be right-aligned.
>
> Now that we have the tabAlign property we can use LC's native field
> object for a wide range of cases we used to have to use the DG for.
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Byrnes wrote:
> At the point the problem occurred I hadn't written a line of code.
> I had dropped a label control on the card and expanded it's size.
> Then I dropped 2 radio buttons inside the boundaries of the of the
> label. I was renaming them and changing the label text when the
> problem occurred.

Sounds like a bug, and if you're able to find a recipe to reproduce that 
please do file a bug report.


FWIW I use LC in Ubuntu daily (mostly 14.04, but I have two machines 
running Ubuntu 15.10, at least until April when all will be upgraded to 
the new LTS), and while I haven't seen this issue myself I'd be happy to 
run any tests you can come up with to confirm the behavior so we can 
help see it fixed.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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Re: DataGrid

[Richard Gaskin]

stephen barncard wrote:


...back to a tabbed scrolling field


No harm in that.  The DG was written to support both list and form row 
types only because at the time the LC field object didn't allow 
independent column alignment, needed for financial apps and others where 
text may be left-aligned while numbers need to be right-aligned.


Now that we have the tabAlign property we can use LC's native field 
object for a wide range of cases we used to have to use the DG for.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: DataGrid

[Richard Gaskin]

Terence Heaford wrote:


Do you believe that the performance of the LiveCode scripting engine can be 
improved to achieve a
full screen smooth scrolling DataGrid similar to NSTableView in 
Xcode/Objective-C?


Performance enhancements in the engine will likely benefit the DataGrid 
as much as anything else.


But I don't believe it will be possible to completely match C code for a 
control this complex.


It's important to keep in mind that what the DG provides is quite unlike 
anything other list form we've ever seen:


In the olden days (not sure how this is done in Cocoa), custom lists 
were defined in a List Definition resource ('LDEF'), and very complex 
bit of work requiring support for a broad range of hooks.  You'd have to 
use LineTo, DrawRect, DrawText, and dozens of other low-level calls to 
specify in great detail every pixel that gets rendered on screen - and 
you'd do all that in C.


The DG isn't as much like an LDEF as it is more like an infinite variety 
of possible LDEFs, a sort of LDEF framework if you will.


We can use the DG to construct something that looks like any single LDEF 
we come across and wonder why it can't be as fast as the one we're 
emulating.  But unlike any single LDEF we can change the appearance and 
behavior of our row contents in a nearly infinite variety of ways, 
whereas with an LDEF the form it's hard-wired to provide is the only 
form you can get.


If someone were to write a sort of meta-LDEF that allowed us to define a 
row without hand-crafting every pixel in C, and then use that definition 
within the meta-LDEF to render it and handle messages within it, and 
then write that for all supported platforms, we'd likely see a 
performance boost.  Given the overhead of interpreting the row 
definition it would still be possible to write faster LDEFs that used 
only one hard-wired row layout, but it would get much closer than what's 
possible in any high-level scripting language.


The challenge is:  who has time to write such a beast, and to write it 
seven times (Mac, Windows, Linux, iOS, Android, Raspberry Pi, HTML)?


LiveCode Builder will reduce the workload needed for that, once editable 
text fields become part of its primitives set.  But even then it's not a 
magic pony:  any high-level scripting language will require more 
computational steps than executing machine code compiled in fixed form 
from a lower-level language like C.


So while I have no doubt the eventual replacement for the DG written in 
LCB will be a very valuable undertaking, it won't solve every aspect of 
this inherently complex problem, a problem so complex I've not seen any 
solution like it anywhere else.


Personally (and speaking out of an admitted broad ignorance of many 
engine details), I would imagine some of the greatest boots to 
performance for DG scrolling may come from things not specific to the 
DG, but more generalized in the way rendering buffers are maintained for 
all groups.


That may be an area the team could explore down the road after the 
higher-priority items (Mac 64-bit, themes, general text performance, 
etc.) are locked down and shipped in v8.0.


And it is for those reasons I keep encouraging everyone to please use 
v8.0dp in your daily work today.  Only by having all of us apply the new 
engine to our work can we assure its fitness for the specific tasks we 
ask of it.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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RE: DataGrid

[Clarence P Martin]

Richard,
Thanks, I will.  As I've discussed with you before, I have a tendency to
look, maybe, a little too deeply into some things.
I guess, that's part of my nature. I was never a person, in school, to
accept shortcuts, just on face value.
I'll see you next week.



Sincerely,

Clarence Martin
Email: chi...@themartinz.com
Cell: 626 6965561


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Richard Gaskin
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 8:45 AM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Subject: Re: DataGrid

Trevor DeVore wrote:

>> I have seen the tutorials on the LiveCode site  and I am still trying 
>> to completely understand the tool.
>> If the author of this tool reads this list, I am hoping for some help 
>> and insight on using this tool.
>
> I am the original author of the DataGrid. I don't provide any 
> one-on-one support and unfortunately I don't have time to explain 
> everything about how it works under the hood. You would need to dig 
> into the code if you want that kind of understanding. If you have 
> specific questions as you go through existing documentation then you 
> can post those and someone here will be able to provide some help.

Clarence is a friend of mine, and I have some additional background on his
needs from his comments at our last local user group meeting.

While studying the DG code may be useful, for the moment I believe all
Clarence needs is more basic info to get started using it.

I did a quick search on Google for "livecode data grid lessons", and found
this as the first hit:


@Clarence:  take a gander through those, and see how well the background
info provided there orients you to using the DG, and how well the
step-by-step instructions are easy to follow.

Let's review your experience in our meeting next Thursday.  Bring your
experiments to the meeting and we can help fill in any gaps in your learning
that may be needed, but the set of tutorials there is so broad that you may
not need any additional help at all.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Fourth World Systems
  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
  
  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Mike Kerner]

Guys,
Over in the Forums, the report is that DG will start to be worked on for
LC8 on or about 3/15.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Clarence P Martin 
wrote:

> Thanks for the information, I appreciate it.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Clarence Martin
> Email: chi...@themartinz.com
> Cell: 626 6965561
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On
> Behalf
> Of Mike Kerner
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 8:11 AM
> To: How to use LiveCode 
> Subject: Re: DataGrid (Documentation)
>
> It's not ready for 8 yet, AFAIK.  In past discussions, we were told it
> would
> be a late conversion because it is so complex (you should read through the
> code that drives it).
> Anyway, there is a datagrid manual, but it is for LC7 and below.  It is 230
> pages and is available at LC's website.  If you like, email me off list and
> I'll email you a copy.
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Paul Dupuis 
> wrote:
>
> > I just looked at LC8dp15 and still no documentation on the Datagrid.
> >
> > At the very least, to support this important tool, if you do not
> > include all the APIs in the Dictionary OR if the Datagrid is not going
> > to be converted to a Widget with its companion documentation any time
> > soon, PLEASE at least add a link to it
> > (http://lessons.livecode.com/m/datagrid/pdf) under the Help menu like
> > for Release Notes, Sample Stacks, Tutorials and so on! OR better still
> > add a single Dictionary entry that has a link to the lessons and PDF
> > on the LiveCode site
> >
> > An easy to find reference for the Datagrid APIs, IN LiveCode itself,
> > is long long long over due.
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day,
> God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Richard Gaskin]

Mike Kerner wrote:


It's not ready for 8 yet, AFAIK.  In past discussions, we were told it
would be a late conversion because it is so complex (you should read
through the code that drives it).
Anyway, there is a datagrid manual, but it is for LC7 and below.


As you noted, the DG hasn't been rewritten for v8.0.  Like any other 
things we script, it will work as well in v8 as in any previous version. 
 Any documentation for it will continue to be useful until that custom 
control changes.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: DataGrid

[Richard Gaskin]

Trevor DeVore wrote:


I have seen the tutorials on the LiveCode site  and I am still trying to
completely understand the tool.
If the author of this tool reads this list, I am hoping for some help and
insight on using this tool.


I am the original author of the DataGrid. I don't provide any one-on-one
support and unfortunately I don't have time to explain everything about how
it works under the hood. You would need to dig into the code if you want
that kind of understanding. If you have specific questions as you go
through existing documentation then you can post those and someone here
will be able to provide some help.


Clarence is a friend of mine, and I have some additional background on 
his needs from his comments at our last local user group meeting.


While studying the DG code may be useful, for the moment I believe all 
Clarence needs is more basic info to get started using it.


I did a quick search on Google for "livecode data grid lessons", and 
found this as the first hit:



@Clarence:  take a gander through those, and see how well the background 
info provided there orients you to using the DG, and how well the 
step-by-step instructions are easy to follow.


Let's review your experience in our meeting next Thursday.  Bring your 
experiments to the meeting and we can help fill in any gaps in your 
learning that may be needed, but the set of tutorials there is so broad 
that you may not need any additional help at all.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Release 6.7.9 / 7.1.2

[panagiotis merakos]

Dear List Members,


We are pleased to announce the release of LiveCode 6.7.9 Stable and 7.1.2
Stable. By "Stable", we mean that no reported regressions have been
introduced in 6.7.9 / 7.1.2, compared to the previous Stable release.


Both 6.7.9 / 7.1.2 are a promotion of 6.7.9 RC-3 / 7.1.2 RC-3, so no change
between the two versions, but the build number and the status.


*Getting the Release*

To get the release please download the installer directly at:
http://downloads.livecode.com


Warmest regards,


The LiveCode Team
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Re: DataGrid

[Mike Kerner]

Terry, Clarence,
You really should mess with the DG code, if you're interested.  Even though
it's 8900 lines, it's very readable and easy to work on.  When I've
proposed code changes, LC (and Trevor) have been fast to evaluate them and
incorporate them.  At least in 6.x, even with what I think are some "fat"
tables (hundreds of rows and 20 columns), response has been good on ios,
anyway.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Clarence P Martin 
wrote:

> Trevor,
> Thanks for your reply.
> I will spend more time analyzing the code in the DataGrid.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Clarence Martin
> Email: chi...@themartinz.com
> Cell: 626 6965561
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On
> Behalf Of Trevor DeVore
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 6:30 AM
> To: How to use LiveCode 
> Subject: Re: DataGrid
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm going to include responses to a number of thread comments in this
> response.
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Clarence P Martin 
> wrote:
>
> >  a very immersive user and I need to know how things work. This allows
> > me to get the most out of anything that I use. I am also assuming that
> > this is supposed to be a “Data Centric” tool which is very important
> > to certain applications.
> >
>
> Yes, DataGrids are a data centric tool.
>
>
> > I am hoping that this tool is high on the list of “near future”
> > widgets and will eventually be less cryptic.
>
>
> I don't know what the plans are for widgets that provide similar
> functionality to the DataGrid. I would hope that nobody ever tries to
> create a widget that does the exact same thing. That would be asanine :-)
> Rather, widgets should be more focused in the problems they try to solve
> (e.g. don't combine the form and table in the same widget). The DataGrid
> was built using the technology available at the time and combined a couple
> of features in order to solve a broader range of issues developers were
> facing.
>
>
> > I have seen the tutorials on the LiveCode site  and I am still trying
> > to completely understand the tool.
> > If the author of this tool reads this list, I am hoping for some help
> > and insight on using this tool.
> >
>
> I am the original author of the DataGrid. I don't provide any one-on-one
> support and unfortunately I don't have time to explain everything about how
> it works under the hood. You would need to dig into the code if you want
> that kind of understanding. If you have specific questions as you go
> through existing documentation then you can post those and someone here
> will be able to provide some help.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 5:13 PM, stephen barncard <
> stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com> wrote:
>
> > But my question is ... why is it so S L O W ??
>
>
> IIRC, you are seeing a slowdown in LC 7 or 8. Is that correct? Do you have
> a test stack you can show that demonstrates the slow down you are seeing?
> While I don't use the DataGrid any longer, a control I use that is similar
> to the DataGrid doesn't perform any differently in LC 8.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 3:27 AM, Terence Heaford 
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Its because it is built using multiple live code fields and
> > manipulating data in these fields when scrolling is pushing live code
> > scripting probably to and beyond it’s limits. For smallish tables it
> > works adequately but as the number of rows and columns increases the
> > performance diminishes to a point where you say to yourself it is is
> > not useable.
>
>
> The number of rows shouldn't affect the scrolling speed. The DataGrid
> doesn't create any more rows based on the amount of data. It only generates
> enough controls to view the visible rows (+ a handful of others). The
> number of columns can affect the scrolling as more controls have to be
> created based on the number of columns.
>
>
> > I believe it was probably created by Trevor Devore because he had a
> > need and live code didn’t provide a table/grid at the time.
> >
>
> I created the DataGrid form to meet specific needs my projects had. It
> evolved over a couple of different projects. I was asked to add the table
> functionality by LiveCode as there was no solid table solution and (as we
> well know by now) there wasn't going to be a dedicated table control
> created in the old LiveCode engine.
>
>
> > It will never scroll smoothly as say Objective-C tables in Xcode as the
> > data grid probably relies on moving the cell contents from field to field
> > to simulate scrolling
> > so to the eye it does not appear to be smooth. This again is not helped
> by
> > the fact it is done in script which in comparison to compiled is slow.
> >
>
> Very true. The fact that the DataGrid has to create so many LiveCode
> controls puts it at a huge disadvantage. Each control carries a lot of
> baggage when it comes to rendering and event processing.
>
>
> > 

Re: beggars be choosers

[Richard Gaskin]

Mick Collins wrote:

> I’m wondering whether there will be a version 6._ or 7._ which will
> come out before the first sanctified version of 8 and when the next
> version (of 6, 7, and/or 8) is expected to come out.

I don't know, but if so I'd be very surprised if there was more than 
just one more build of either v6.x or 7.x.


V8.0 is the future of the platform, and it benefits all of us to move 
away from the expense of maintaining three different versions ASAP.


If you're able to help test v8 that'll help ensure it does everything 
your project needs.  A Community Edition is available for v8.0, and in 
addition to representing where the code base is going it also includes 
hundreds of fixes and enhancements not backportable to older versions, 
so whether you begin testing with it today or wait until it's released 
it'll be a very good transition.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com


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RE: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Clarence P Martin]

Thanks for the information, I appreciate it.

Sincerely,

Clarence Martin
Email: chi...@themartinz.com
Cell: 626 6965561


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Mike Kerner
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 8:11 AM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Subject: Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

It's not ready for 8 yet, AFAIK.  In past discussions, we were told it would
be a late conversion because it is so complex (you should read through the
code that drives it).
Anyway, there is a datagrid manual, but it is for LC7 and below.  It is 230
pages and is available at LC's website.  If you like, email me off list and
I'll email you a copy.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Paul Dupuis  wrote:

> I just looked at LC8dp15 and still no documentation on the Datagrid.
>
> At the very least, to support this important tool, if you do not 
> include all the APIs in the Dictionary OR if the Datagrid is not going 
> to be converted to a Widget with its companion documentation any time 
> soon, PLEASE at least add a link to it
> (http://lessons.livecode.com/m/datagrid/pdf) under the Help menu like 
> for Release Notes, Sample Stacks, Tutorials and so on! OR better still 
> add a single Dictionary entry that has a link to the lessons and PDF 
> on the LiveCode site
>
> An easy to find reference for the Datagrid APIs, IN LiveCode itself, 
> is long long long over due.
>
>
>
> ___
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> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
> subscription preferences:
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>



--
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day,
God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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RE: DataGrid

[Clarence P Martin]

Trevor,
Thanks for your reply. 
I will spend more time analyzing the code in the DataGrid.


Sincerely,

Clarence Martin
Email: chi...@themartinz.com
Cell: 626 6965561


-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of 
Trevor DeVore
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 6:30 AM
To: How to use LiveCode 
Subject: Re: DataGrid

Hi everyone,

I'm going to include responses to a number of thread comments in this response.

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Clarence P Martin 
wrote:

>  a very immersive user and I need to know how things work. This allows 
> me to get the most out of anything that I use. I am also assuming that 
> this is supposed to be a “Data Centric” tool which is very important 
> to certain applications.
>

Yes, DataGrids are a data centric tool.


> I am hoping that this tool is high on the list of “near future” 
> widgets and will eventually be less cryptic.


I don't know what the plans are for widgets that provide similar functionality 
to the DataGrid. I would hope that nobody ever tries to create a widget that 
does the exact same thing. That would be asanine :-) Rather, widgets should be 
more focused in the problems they try to solve (e.g. don't combine the form and 
table in the same widget). The DataGrid was built using the technology 
available at the time and combined a couple of features in order to solve a 
broader range of issues developers were facing.


> I have seen the tutorials on the LiveCode site  and I am still trying 
> to completely understand the tool.
> If the author of this tool reads this list, I am hoping for some help 
> and insight on using this tool.
>

I am the original author of the DataGrid. I don't provide any one-on-one 
support and unfortunately I don't have time to explain everything about how it 
works under the hood. You would need to dig into the code if you want that kind 
of understanding. If you have specific questions as you go through existing 
documentation then you can post those and someone here will be able to provide 
some help.



On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 5:13 PM, stephen barncard < 
stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com> wrote:

> But my question is ... why is it so S L O W ??


IIRC, you are seeing a slowdown in LC 7 or 8. Is that correct? Do you have a 
test stack you can show that demonstrates the slow down you are seeing?
While I don't use the DataGrid any longer, a control I use that is similar to 
the DataGrid doesn't perform any differently in LC 8.


On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 3:27 AM, Terence Heaford 
 wrote:
>
>
> Its because it is built using multiple live code fields and 
> manipulating data in these fields when scrolling is pushing live code 
> scripting probably to and beyond it’s limits. For smallish tables it 
> works adequately but as the number of rows and columns increases the 
> performance diminishes to a point where you say to yourself it is is 
> not useable.


The number of rows shouldn't affect the scrolling speed. The DataGrid doesn't 
create any more rows based on the amount of data. It only generates enough 
controls to view the visible rows (+ a handful of others). The number of 
columns can affect the scrolling as more controls have to be created based on 
the number of columns.


> I believe it was probably created by Trevor Devore because he had a 
> need and live code didn’t provide a table/grid at the time.
>

I created the DataGrid form to meet specific needs my projects had. It
evolved over a couple of different projects. I was asked to add the table
functionality by LiveCode as there was no solid table solution and (as we
well know by now) there wasn't going to be a dedicated table control
created in the old LiveCode engine.


> It will never scroll smoothly as say Objective-C tables in Xcode as the
> data grid probably relies on moving the cell contents from field to field
> to simulate scrolling
> so to the eye it does not appear to be smooth. This again is not helped by
> the fact it is done in script which in comparison to compiled is slow.
>

Very true. The fact that the DataGrid has to create so many LiveCode
controls puts it at a huge disadvantage. Each control carries a lot of
baggage when it comes to rendering and event processing.


> There really needs to be a version created in a c or c++ or objective-c or
> whatever that is compiled into the the live code system.
>

I don't think this is the case. Widgets provide (or at least will provide)
an excellent platform for building out a custom control like a Widget. When
designing a widget, a developer only has to draw what is absolutely
necessary. This is much more efficient than the current approach. Widgets
are also self-contained unlike groups which makes event processing much
easier. And because widgets can be nested the underlying design becomes
much simpler. I think widgets will give us everything we need without
having 

Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Mike Kerner]

It's not ready for 8 yet, AFAIK.  In past discussions, we were told it
would be a late conversion because it is so complex (you should read
through the code that drives it).
Anyway, there is a datagrid manual, but it is for LC7 and below.  It is 230
pages and is available at LC's website.  If you like, email me off list and
I'll email you a copy.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Paul Dupuis  wrote:

> I just looked at LC8dp15 and still no documentation on the Datagrid.
>
> At the very least, to support this important tool, if you do not include
> all the APIs in the Dictionary OR if the Datagrid is not going to be
> converted to a Widget with its companion documentation any time soon,
> PLEASE at least add a link to it
> (http://lessons.livecode.com/m/datagrid/pdf) under the Help menu like
> for Release Notes, Sample Stacks, Tutorials and so on! OR better still
> add a single Dictionary entry that has a link to the lessons and PDF on
> the LiveCode site
>
> An easy to find reference for the Datagrid APIs, IN LiveCode itself, is
> long long long over due.
>
>
>
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On the second day, God created the oceans.
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Re: DataGrid (Documentation)

[Paul Dupuis]

I just looked at LC8dp15 and still no documentation on the Datagrid.

At the very least, to support this important tool, if you do not include
all the APIs in the Dictionary OR if the Datagrid is not going to be
converted to a Widget with its companion documentation any time soon,
PLEASE at least add a link to it
(http://lessons.livecode.com/m/datagrid/pdf) under the Help menu like
for Release Notes, Sample Stacks, Tutorials and so on! OR better still
add a single Dictionary entry that has a link to the lessons and PDF on
the LiveCode site

An easy to find reference for the Datagrid APIs, IN LiveCode itself, is
long long long over due.



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Re: DataGrid

[Terence Heaford]

> On 25 Feb 2016, at 14:30, Trevor DeVore  wrote:
> 
> I don't think this is the case. Widgets provide (or at least will provide)
> an excellent platform for building out a custom control like a Widget.

I am not sure precisely how Livecode builder works in comparison to the live 
code script engine but

I assume they both compile to byte code.

Is the byte code produced by LCB much faster to execute than the byte code 
produced by the scripting engine?

I presume (probably incorrectly) that the scripting engine produces byte code 
when the script is first called whereas 

LCB produces byte code when the widget is compiled?

Does this mean that after the first compile the script engine byte code is just 
as efficient as LCB?


All the best

Terry


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Re: DataGrid

[Terence Heaford]

> On 25 Feb 2016, at 14:30, Trevor DeVore  wrote:
> 
> The number of rows shouldn't affect the scrolling speed. The DataGrid
> doesn't create any more rows based on the amount of data. It only generates
> enough controls to view the visible rows (+ a handful of others). The
> number of columns can affect the scrolling as more controls have to be
> created based on the number of columns.


The number of visible rows on screen does affect the performance of the 
DataGrid.

With the increasing size of screens, being able to display more visible rows 
and full screen mode in the 
likes of OSX,  more and more pressure will be placed on the LiveCode scripting 
engine.

Do you believe that the performance of the LiveCode scripting engine can be 
improved to achieve a
full screen smooth scrolling DataGrid similar to NSTableView in 
Xcode/Objective-C?

All the best

Terry
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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Jim Byrnes]

On 02/25/2016 05:59 AM, Kay C Lan wrote:

Welome Jim,

What happens if you forget your first test stack and start a fresh. Start
LiveCode, create a New Stack. Have you got the Pointer Tool back? Can you
drag buttons and fields onto your new stack now?


Yes, I deleted the original stack and restarted Livecode and I was able 
to operate normally.



If you can reproduce your first problem it would be worth submitting a bug
report with recipe and your stack.


On my second attempt I used a different approach. I should have time 
today to duplicate my first attempt and see what happens.


Thanks,  Jim




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Re: DataGrid

[Trevor DeVore]

Hi everyone,

I'm going to include responses to a number of thread comments in this
response.

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Clarence P Martin 
wrote:

>  a very immersive user and I need to know how things work. This allows me
> to get the most out of anything that I use. I am also assuming that this is
> supposed to be a “Data Centric” tool which is very important to certain
> applications.
>

Yes, DataGrids are a data centric tool.


> I am hoping that this tool is high on the list of “near future” widgets
> and will eventually be less cryptic.


I don't know what the plans are for widgets that provide similar
functionality to the DataGrid. I would hope that nobody ever tries to
create a widget that does the exact same thing. That would be asanine :-)
Rather, widgets should be more focused in the problems they try to solve
(e.g. don't combine the form and table in the same widget). The DataGrid
was built using the technology available at the time and combined a couple
of features in order to solve a broader range of issues developers were
facing.


> I have seen the tutorials on the LiveCode site  and I am still trying to
> completely understand the tool.
> If the author of this tool reads this list, I am hoping for some help and
> insight on using this tool.
>

I am the original author of the DataGrid. I don't provide any one-on-one
support and unfortunately I don't have time to explain everything about how
it works under the hood. You would need to dig into the code if you want
that kind of understanding. If you have specific questions as you go
through existing documentation then you can post those and someone here
will be able to provide some help.



On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 5:13 PM, stephen barncard <
stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com> wrote:

> But my question is ... why is it so S L O W ??


IIRC, you are seeing a slowdown in LC 7 or 8. Is that correct? Do you have
a test stack you can show that demonstrates the slow down you are seeing?
While I don't use the DataGrid any longer, a control I use that is similar
to the DataGrid doesn't perform any differently in LC 8.


On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 3:27 AM, Terence Heaford 
 wrote:
>
>
> Its because it is built using multiple live code fields and manipulating
> data in these fields when scrolling is pushing live code scripting
> probably to and beyond it’s limits. For smallish tables it works
> adequately but as the number of rows and columns increases the performance
> diminishes
> to a point where you say to yourself it is is not useable.


The number of rows shouldn't affect the scrolling speed. The DataGrid
doesn't create any more rows based on the amount of data. It only generates
enough controls to view the visible rows (+ a handful of others). The
number of columns can affect the scrolling as more controls have to be
created based on the number of columns.


> I believe it was probably created by Trevor Devore because he had a need
> and live code didn’t
> provide a table/grid at the time.
>

I created the DataGrid form to meet specific needs my projects had. It
evolved over a couple of different projects. I was asked to add the table
functionality by LiveCode as there was no solid table solution and (as we
well know by now) there wasn't going to be a dedicated table control
created in the old LiveCode engine.


> It will never scroll smoothly as say Objective-C tables in Xcode as the
> data grid probably relies on moving the cell contents from field to field
> to simulate scrolling
> so to the eye it does not appear to be smooth. This again is not helped by
> the fact it is done in script which in comparison to compiled is slow.
>

Very true. The fact that the DataGrid has to create so many LiveCode
controls puts it at a huge disadvantage. Each control carries a lot of
baggage when it comes to rendering and event processing.


> There really needs to be a version created in a c or c++ or objective-c or
> whatever that is compiled into the the live code system.
>

I don't think this is the case. Widgets provide (or at least will provide)
an excellent platform for building out a custom control like a Widget. When
designing a widget, a developer only has to draw what is absolutely
necessary. This is much more efficient than the current approach. Widgets
are also self-contained unlike groups which makes event processing much
easier. And because widgets can be nested the underlying design becomes
much simpler. I think widgets will give us everything we need without
having to resort to C++.

We still can't create editable text fields with a Widget yet so creating an
editable table or form isn't possible yet. But once we can then widgets
will be the way to go.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
ScreenSteps
www.screensteps.com-www.clarify-it.com
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beggars be choosers

[Mick Collins]

I’m one of those who can’t afford anything more than the community version of 
LC (for reasons of money, testing / experiment time). I’m wondering whether 
there will be a version 6._ or 7._ which will come out before the first 
sanctified version of 8 and when the next version (of 6, 7, and/or 8) is 
expected to come out. Thanks,
   -  Mick
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Re: Hi-Res Images at Natural Size?

[Colin Holgate]

Small tip on the zooming your desktop image: The zooming feature has an option 
to do smoothing, which I imagine defaults to on. You want to turn that off if 
you are using zooming as a debug technique. With it turned off, zoom becomes a 
very useful way to analyze antialiasing issues.



> On Feb 25, 2016, at 7:04 AM, Mark Waddingham  wrote:
> 
> On my non-Retina iMac, zooming the desktop in, the image is 4x4 solid dark 
> blue - because it is downscaling by a factor of two, each pixel will be an 
> average of 4 pixels - 50% black, 50% blue which is 50% blue (0,0,127 or 
> thereabouts).

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Re: Hi-Res Images at Natural Size?

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-02-25 11:58, Scott Rossi wrote:

Thanks for the explanation Mark.  The discrepancy in resolution is
intensified in the simulator when a bitmap is displayed near text
content, which remains sharp at any size.  So when one sets the
simulator to 100% scale and sees perfectly rendered 2cm text
characters drawn alongside a fuzzy mess of a bitmap, I think many
would be of the opinion (flawed as it is) that something is amiss. :-)


I do think this is just a 'visual artifact' - remember that when you 
scale down an image it will be filtered (if the resizeQuality is at 
least good) - so in the iPhone simulator you will more clearly see the 
slight blurring that occurs as a result of this as you are seeing it at 
twice the size.


I've just confirmed the engine is doing things correctly:

on mouseUp
   local tImageData
   repeat with i = 1 to 64
  put numToByte(0) after tImageData
  put numToByte(0) after tImageData
  put numToByte(0) after tImageData
  if (i mod 2) is 0 then
 put numToByte(0) after tImageData
  else
 put numToByte(255) after tImageData
  end if
   end repeat
   set the width of image 1 to 8
   set the height of image 1 to 8
   set the imageData of image 1 to tImageData

   set the width of image 1 to 4
   set the height of image 1 to 4
end mouseUp

Creates a small image on a stack whose image data is 8x8 but which is 
rendered at 4x4. The image is 8 vertical lines, each 1 pixel wide which 
alternates between black and blue.


On my non-Retina iMac, zooming the desktop in, the image is 4x4 solid 
dark blue - because it is downscaling by a factor of two, each pixel 
will be an average of 4 pixels - 50% black, 50% blue which is 50% blue 
(0,0,127 or thereabouts).


When I run the stack on a Retina iPhone simulator, I see all 64 pixels 
faithfully represented as I would expect since the simulated Retina 
screen uses two screen pixels for every logical pixel.


i.e. In other words, the engine will use as many device pixels as it has 
to render things (images are scaled from the original source size direct 
to the screen - and not via the number of logical pixels).


Warmest Regards,

Mark.


--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: Cursor changes to a hand in the ide

[Kay C Lan]

Welome Jim,

What happens if you forget your first test stack and start a fresh. Start
LiveCode, create a New Stack. Have you got the Pointer Tool back? Can you
drag buttons and fields onto your new stack now?

If you can reproduce your first problem it would be worth submitting a bug
report with recipe and your stack.
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Re: updating progress to user during long handler

[Kay C Lan]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 9:24 PM, jameshale  wrote:

>
> Tried it but no change.
>

When you say you added some Beeps, was this to the mainstack handler or the
updateme handler in the splash stack? If it wasn't in the updateme what
happens if you move the beep to there?

If you put a breakpoint immediately after the line in the updateme handler
which places text into the fld, when stopped during debugging is the text
actually in the field? If you place the breakpoint in your mainstack
handler immediately after the send "updateme mupdate" when stopped is the
text in the field?

Instead of your fld, what happens if you send the text to the message box?
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Re: Hi-Res Images at Natural Size?

[Scott Rossi]

Thanks for the explanation Mark.  The discrepancy in resolution is intensified 
in the simulator when a bitmap is displayed near text content, which remains 
sharp at any size.  So when one sets the simulator to 100% scale and sees 
perfectly rendered 2cm text characters drawn alongside a fuzzy mess of a 
bitmap, I think many would be of the opinion (flawed as it is) that something 
is amiss. :-)

Best Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 1:19 AM, Mark Waddingham  wrote:
> 
>> On 2016-02-25 02:54, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
>> This has been my experience here. Neither my 15.4" 2880 X1800 Macbook
>> Pro nor the LG Ultrawide 34Inch 3440 X 1440 displays can match the
>> sharpness of the same image on my iPhone 6+. 
> 
> The pixel density of the iPhone 6+ is 401ppi.
> 
> The pixel density of your 15.4" MacBook Pro is 220ppi.
> 
> The pixel density of your LG Ultrawide 34inch display is 109ppi.
> 
> The pixel density of a 27" iMac non-retina display is 102ppi.
> 
> The iPhone Simulator maps one simulated device pixel to one screen pixel, so 
> the net effect you will get on (say) a 27" iMac is that of 51ppi.
> 
> The lower the ppi, the less sharp things will appear :)
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
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Re: Free BasicClock desktop clock for OSX

[Kay C Lan]

Enhancement Request: 17017

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Peter TB Brett 
wrote:

> On 16/02/2016 03:23, Kay C Lan wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Peter TB Brett > >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Is your clock open source?  At the moment it has "All rights reserved" in
>>> the copyright...
>>>
>>> I don't have a Community Edition of LC in front of me but I know for the
>>>
>> other editions:
>>
>>  All rights reserved worldwide
>>
>> is the default entry in the Copyright Notice box of the Standalone
>> Application Settings (Win & Mac only). Is this automatically replaced with
>> 'Licensed under GNU General Public License version 2 - GPL2' (or words to
>> that effect) for the Community Edition? If not, it should be.
>>
>
> I agree.  Can you please file a bug report, so we don't forget about it?
>
>   Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Open Source Team
>
> LiveCode 2016 Conference: https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/
>
>
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Re: DataGrid

[Terence Heaford]

> On 25 Feb 2016, at 09:28, stephen barncard  
> wrote:
> 
> I know how it's made and who made it. I just didn't think 350 rows x 12
> columns would be 'too big'and I thought I remembered it being faster a
> few versions ago.


I think there is also a performance hit depending on which version of LC you 
use.

I believe 6.7.8 is faster than 7.1.1 is >= 8

This I believe is as a result of the different text system used in 7.1.1 vs 
6.7.8.

I believe from some simple timing that the 7.1.1 is approx. 15% slower than 
6.7.8.

We shouldn’t really compare LC 8 because it is still dp.

All the best

Terry
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Re: DataGrid

[stephen barncard]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Terence Heaford 
wrote:

> For smallish tables it works adequately but as the number of rows and
> columns increases the performance diminishes


I know how it's made and who made it. I just didn't think 350 rows x 12
columns would be 'too big'and I thought I remembered it being faster a
few versions ago.

thanks for confirming Terence... back to a tabbed scrolling field

The datagrid CONCEPT is brilliant!!!

sqb

Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: Hi-Res Images at Natural Size?

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-02-25 02:54, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

This has been my experience here. Neither my 15.4" 2880 X1800 Macbook
Pro nor the LG Ultrawide 34Inch 3440 X 1440 displays can match the
sharpness of the same image on my iPhone 6+. 


The pixel density of the iPhone 6+ is 401ppi.

The pixel density of your 15.4" MacBook Pro is 220ppi.

The pixel density of your LG Ultrawide 34inch display is 109ppi.

The pixel density of a 27" iMac non-retina display is 102ppi.

The iPhone Simulator maps one simulated device pixel to one screen 
pixel, so the net effect you will get on (say) a 27" iMac is that of 
51ppi.


The lower the ppi, the less sharp things will appear :)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: leap to future

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-02-25 02:40, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

We were told in no uncertain terms, "not gonna happen."


It is important to understand that LiveCode Community and LiveCode Indy 
are distinct things. Whilst Community offers a proper subset of 
functionality to Indy at the moment that is by no means guaranteed in 
the future (it is entirely possible that Community might at some point 
come with GPL-licensed extensions which are incompatible with the Indy 
Commercial license). Both editions share a common source base but the 
license under which you receive either is hugely different.



It's still baffling, as it would seem to be a no-brainer to turn on
the HTML5 Standalone builder option in the Indy version and turn off
the option to encrypt it if you had not paid for HTML5... 


The difference between Community and Indy is not really anything to do 
with the 'option to encrypt' it is related to licensing.


If you want to do commercial work where you are able to choose the 
license under which you distribute your code, then you must buy a 
commercial license.


If you don't care about choosing the license under which you distribute 
your code and are happy with abiding by the terms of the GPL then, by 
all means, use community.



Again response was "not gonna happen."

So there comes a time when, if Daddy says, "That's the way it's going
to be," you have to just be quiet.


I think the mistake being made in these threads is assuming that 
Community is just Indy without code protection. It is not. Community is 
licensed entirely differently - therefore, being able to build HTML5 
standalones in Indy 'without protection' is *not* the same as being able 
to build HTML5 standalones in Community from a licensing perspective.



There must be some underlying tech reason why it's not possible.
Either or the internal tracking of paid/unpaid licenses for HTML5
option for Indy users could turn into a nightmare...  


Given the complexity of software licensing these days, it seems to me 
that the best and easiest approach is to keep the Community and Indy 
products entirely separate. I can absolutely guarantee you that we will 
be making absolutely no attempt to create some sort of strange 
undefinable hybrid licensing mess which nobody quite understands (some 
might say there's quite enough of that sort of thing in the world 
already!).


If you want to use HTML5, but don't have a Indy license for deployment 
with - you are free to use the Community edition, but remember that you 
must abide by the terms of the GPL.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: DataGrid

[Terence Heaford]

> On 24 Feb 2016, at 22:13, stephen barncard  
> wrote:
> 
> But my question is ... why is it so S L O W ??

I have asked this question a number of times and don’t believe I ever got a 
full answer.

I think the why is easy.

Its because it is built using multiple live code fields and manipulating data 
in these fields when scrolling is pushing live code scripting
probably to and beyond it’s limits. For smallish tables it works adequately but 
as the number of rows and columns increases the performance diminishes
to a point where you say to yourself it is is not useable. I believe it was 
probably created by Trevor Devore because he had a need and live code didn’t
provide a table/grid at the time.
It will never scroll smoothly as say Objective-C tables in Xcode as the data 
grid probably relies on moving the cell contents from field to field to 
simulate scrolling
so to the eye it does not appear to be smooth. This again is not helped by the 
fact it is done in script which in comparison to compiled is slow.

There really needs to be a version created in a c or c++ or objective-c or 
whatever that is compiled into the the live code system.

Until this happens Livecode to my mind will not be able to compete with 
development environments that provide a “Proper” table solution.

There are clearly a lot of man hours required to develop a native table and it 
appears that Livecode management at the moment do not seem willing to expend 
them?

and.. maybe for Open Source users it will never be available as LiveCode will 
maybe charge extra for it?

Not looking for a debate because I have tried all solutions to what Stephen 
Barncard is suffering and none really provide a “Professional” solution.

It would be great if I am wrong and LiveCode in version 8 incorporated a table 
that was scriptable and performed at the speed a table should in a professional
development environment.

Fingers crossed.


All the best

Terry
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Re: leap to future

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2016-02-24 22:58, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:

But it is my understanding that  we can deploy HTML5 from community
"for free" assuming that we do not need to lock up the code.


You can download the Community version of LiveCode from our servers at 
no cost. However, usage of the Community version of LiveCode binds you 
to the terms of the GPL. Any *stackfiles* you create with LiveCode 
Community must be distributed under the GPL (basically meaning that 
anyone you give a stackfile to has the right to modify it and 
redistribute the modified version as they see fit, as long as they also 
abide by the GPL).


So whilst the Community edition is 'free' (as in beer), it also enforces 
freedom on any code you write with it :)


Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Look positive at HTML5 now

[-hh]

Here a constructive post to HTML5.

CLUSTER-6:
** Six HTML5 standalones running smoothly together in one window. **
hh.on-rev.com/html5/ (the cyan button "CLUSTER" is at bottom).

I don't hesitate at all to criticize if appropriate, but much the same
I don't hesitate to praise:
Have fun and try yourself, LC 8.0.0-dp15 did a big step forward with
the HTML5 builder! Look at your great work, Peter (and some co-workers)!

After you started the six modules you can have with that cluster 9
clocks running "in sync". Work with one module and watch the others.

Load one single other module before loading cluster-6, then it's
faster. This is a real stress test for browsers, compare their 
performance with cluster-6. 

Currently Firefox is running fastest (with animations), Safari has the
best caching for repeated usage. Zoom the window *content* in/out to
fit your window or screen (I mean the cmd-minus/plus/0 mechanism).

I have (with  a 50 Mbit connection) Cluster-6 complete here in
... 12 seconds with Firefox
... 16 seconds with Safari
... 32 seconds with Chrome
... 40 seconds with Opera

This is my opinion to the current state of HTML5:
It's still in the lower half of a first final state. **And it's not very
coincident with my wish list.** But where it is, it is far beyond my
expectations. And it has already now become hard to touch it's limits
(I tried). I like it, go on!

===
Hermann

p.s. these modules demo a little bit what already works fine.

At topLeft: Fields with effects, a cool font and a color chooser.
At bottomLeft: Numbers drawn by polygons and a small color chooser.
At topRight: Symbols displayed by changing backPatterns.
At midRight: Polygon Clocks, one "wireframe" style, one "plain" style.
At bottomRight: Manipulating imagedata for display (6 images only).





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