Re: Web vs Native (was Re: HTML5 limitations?)

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Word. I barely have any experience and I've already run into multiple
users/customers who think that "add to homescreen" is impossible hacker
magic.

High market penetration of smartphones doesn't mean anyone actually has any
idea how to use their smartphone. Most people are at about the
Fischer-Price My First Shapes and Colors level. Except that they've aged
out of the phase where it's easy to learn new things. So they feel like an
idiot baby and it takes way too much effort to push through the learning
curve.

A lot of developers use "hybrid apps" (like PhoneGap) as the quickest,
easiest way to get a web app into the app store(s). It doesn't actually
have an app in it. It's basically just a browser with a built-in link to
the web app. But there are a lot of users who don't understand how to use
the app if it's not in the app store.

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Which point illustrates something I'm sure seasoned developers have known
> for a long time: There is no way to write an app so that it will satisfy
> everyone, especially these days with all the ways to deliver an app!
>
> To illustrate, I had a gal here in the office lose some documents, because
> I had to reinitialize the copier HD in order to fix a problem that
> installing a web app for the copier had caused. Come to find out, she scans
> documents and keeps them stored on the copier for many days until she can
> get around to processing them. I asked her why she didn't just scan the
> documents directly into our document management app, and she said she
> doesn't do things that way, but instead uses Acrobat (or some other app) to
> COMBINE THE SCANNED DOCUMENTS WITH EXISTING PDF DOCUMENTS! All documents
> become one PDF!
>
> So I told her that it would be much better having each kind of document as
> a discreet document, so that routing each document somewhere else would not
> require her to pull the document apart again. Her response was, "This is
> the way I have always done it. This is the way I will always do it. I am
> not going to change!"
>
> Oh kay then. Turns out you cannot program around human will.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Jul 27, 2017, at 09:03 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > But we're making an app anyway, because of feedback from his customers
> which suggests that using bookmarks on mobile is too onerous.  They
> expressed a very strong preference for having in icon on their home screen,
> and even the one step needed to put a bookmark on their home screen was
> perceived as too difficult.  They'd much rather find, download, and install
> an app just to get an easy launch.
> >
> > --
> > Richard Gaskin
>
>
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Re: Web vs Native (was Re: HTML5 limitations?)

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 5:27 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> hh wrote:
> >> RG wrote:
> >> My bigger question here is what needs to be delivered specifically
> >> in a web browser window vs a native app, and why?
> >
> > This questions browsers ("the web") as platform in general.
> > TMHO, you are too late with that question, by 25 years.
>
> Perhaps just poor writing on my part.  I'm not questioning whether web
> pages exist or are useful.  Of course they are.
>
> As I think about this more, there seem to be two question here:
>
> - What are the use-cases where a native app is a better choice
>   than a web app?
>

- when the app needs access to the phone's functions (notifications, GPS,
screen dimming, text messages, etc)
- when it's important that at least some of the app's features work in
degraded/denied signal environments (no/low data)
- when your users don't understand what they're doing and insist that they
can't find your web app in the app store
- when you want to ensure that you control the experience; a web app is
accessed through the browser which means the browser's navigation and
settings take priority


>
> - What are the perceived benefits of web apps and native apps?
>

- web apps make your app instantly available to everyone in the world who
has internet and a browser
- web apps automatically "support" all operating systems and devices,
provided they have internet and a browser
- web apps don't have to compromise with any of the app stores; you can
offer anything you want whenever you want
- web apps have more direct access to other web services, so if you need to
leverage them it can be easier

- native apps can easily be more expensive than web apps for the same
functionality because they have more and more specific standards

- there are several "hybrid app" options where you get something installed
on the phone but it's just the bare minimum, not the whole app; usually
it's a native browser that only navigates to the web app


>
> The first question is about actual capabilities, and the second is about
> the psychological drivers of clients and customers, which may or may not
> reflect those capabilities.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: play sound plays the wrong sound

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I just found this note at BYU. Apparently "play" only works with
uncompressed file formats. I switched to the *.wav version and it works
http://livecode.byu.edu/audio/audioIntro.php

Why is this stuff not in the dictionary?

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 7:22 AM, tbodine via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I believe the problem is the audio file settings. Open the file in an audio
> editor and save it again with bitrate of 16 and 44100 Hz.
>
> HTH,
> Tom B.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.
> 278305.n4.nabble.com/play-sound-plays-the-wrong-sound-
> tp4716673p4716675.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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play sound plays the wrong sound

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Any ideas on this?

I downloaded a beep in *.mp3 format.

When I play the file with windows media player it sounds like a beep.
When I play the file with the "play" command it sounds horribly distorted.
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clipboarddata mixed up

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I'm not sure how to figure out the difference in what's happening here.

1) use window's clipping tool to take a screenshot and hit ctrl+c to copy
the picture to the clipboard
2) right click on a picture in chrome and select copy to copy the picture
to the clipboard

In both cases, if I open a document in open office I can past the picture

But when I try to get the picture with clipboarddata["image"] it's empty in
case (2).

Additionally,
I selected the image I pasted into the document in case (2) and hit ctrl+c
to copy it to the clipboard, then pasted it into the document a second time
to confirm it was copied. After that, clipboarddata["image"] still has the
OLD image data in it.

It's like there are two clipboards?

I tried using
put the keys of clipboarddata into tKeys
but that doesn't give me anything.
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Re: Capturing screen into image

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

This is the script I use to capture screenshots from particular areas

*on* snapCaptureButtMouseUp pLine

*-- clicked in node details to capture a screenshot from the previously
committed captureArea rect*

*-- set the loc of stack "captureArea" to -1000,-1000*

*-- close stack "captureArea"*

*-- should already be closed*

*-- export snapshot from rect sCaptureAreaGeometry["captureAreaRect"] to
image "figureHolder" stack "nodeDetails"*

*put* the effective filename of this stack into tPath

*set* the itemDelimiter to slash

*put* "temp/screenshot.gif" into item -1 of tPath

*export* snapshot from rect sCaptureAreaGeometry["captureAreaRect"] to file
tPath as GIF

*set* the filename of image "figureHolder" stack "nodeDetails" to tPath

*-- size the image*

*put* the rect of field "editData" stack "NodeDetails" into tQuery["maxRect"
]

*put* the long id of image "figureHolder" stack "NodeDetails" into tQuery[
"longID"]

*put* fitImageToConstraint(tQuery) into tGimme

*set* the width of image "figureHolder" stack "NodeDetails" to tGimme[
"width"]

*set* the height of image "figureHolder" stack "NodeDetails" to tGimme[
"height"]

*set* the loc of image "figureHolder" stack "NodeDetails" to tGimme["center"
]

*-- the clear button can be show now*

*set* the visible of button "clearImgButt" stack "NodeDetails" to true

*set* the visible of button "expandImgButt" stack "NodeDetails" to true

*put* the cNodeDetails of stack "NodeDetails" into tDeets

*put* empty into tDeets[pLine]["new"]

*put* true into tDeets["newFigure"]

*-- put "screenshot" into tDeets[pLine]["new"]["copyFrom"]*

*put* tPath into tDeets[pLine]["new"]["copyFrom"]

*put* uuid("random") into tUUID

*put* tUUID & ".gif" into tDeets[pLine]["new"]["newName"]

*set* the cNodeDetails of stack "NodeDetails" to tDeets

*end* snapCaptureButtMouseUp

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 12:14 AM, Terence Heaford via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Thanks for your help.
>
> I have changed the script to below and it does not work.
>
> set the lockLoc of image "myImage" to false
> export snapshot from rectangle (the rect of widget "Browser") to
> pictVariable as PNG
> put pictVariable into image "myImage"
> set the width of image "myImage" to the formattedWidth of image "myImage"
> set the height of image "myImage" to the formattedHeight of image "myImage"
> print card from topleft of image "myImage" to bottomRight of image
> “myImage"
>
> The image “myImage" on the screen seems to be the same as widget “Browser”
> but the print card line of the script shows the grey bar at the top.
>
>
> Any other ideas please.
>
> Thanks
>
> Terry
>
>
>
>
> > On 30 Jun 2017, at 22:48, Mark Schonewille via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Set the lockLoc of the image to false. Set the text of the image to the
> PNG data (you're doing this correctly), but don't set the rect of the image
> first. If necessary, set the width of the image to the formattedWidth of
> the image and set the height of the image to the formattedHeight of the
> image.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Mark Schonewille
> > http://economy-x-talk.com
> > https://www.facebook.com/marksch
> >
> > Buy the most extensive book on the
> > LiveCode language:
> > http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com
> >
> > Op 30-Jun-17 om 20:38 schreef Terence Heaford via use-livecode:
> >> This script does not work.
> >>
> >> export snapshot from rectangle (the rect of widget "Browser") to
> pictVariable as PNG
> >>
> >> set the rect of image "myImage" to the rect of widget "Browser"
> >>
> >> put pictVariable into image "myImage"
> >>
> >> print card from topleft of image "myImage" to bottomRight of image
> “myImage"
> >>
> >>
> >> After placing the captured image into “myImage” there is a grey bar at
> the top and the full width of the image is not visible.
> >>
> >> Am I doing something wrong?
> >>
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Terry
> >> ___
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> >
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Re: how to download an image

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Just following up for posterity.

The livecode team figured out that setting the httpheaders to empty solved
the problem, or at least part of it.
I was setting them to connect to the API that sends the link for the image.
Now setting them to empty before trying to download the image partly works.

It works for "put url"; the image file shows up and isn't corrupted.
It hasn't worked for libURLdownloadToFile; the image file doesn't show up.

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I dunno. Here's what I just did and it loaded the image with no problems.
> All 97,183 bytes worth. Do you have write permission to the folder you're
> downloading to?
>
> on mouseUp
>local tImgUrl
>local tImgName
>local tNewFile
>constant tNewFolder="/home/mwieder/Desktop"
>
>put "//s3.amazonaws.com/appforest_uf/f1496548544475x140387106221
> 169240/grilled_cheese_on_plate.jpg" into tImgUrl
>
>put "https:" & tImgUrl into tImgUrl
>set itemdelimiter to "/"
>put item -1 of tImgUrl into tImgName
>set itemdelimiter to comma
>put tNewFolder & "/" & tImgName into tNewFile
>libURLDownloadToFile tImgUrl,tNewFile, "finished"
> end mouseUp
>
> on finished
>answer "All Done"
> end finished
>
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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Re: how to download an image

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I've only tried it in the IDE so far.

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 12:36 PM, tbodine via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Is this happening in a standalone or the IDE? A standalone would need
> revsecurity.dll for https.
>
> Tom B.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.
> 278305.n4.nabble.com/how-to-download-an-image-tp4715487p4715503.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: how to download an image

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Yeah, I've got a list of URLs like the one in the first message
//s3.amazonaws.com/appforest_uf/f1496548544475x140387106221169
240/grilled_cheese_on_plate.jpg

I'm trying to download the images from AWS to a folder.

Previously I couldn't get "put URL into binfile" to work (0kb files) so I
tried downloading the base64 encoded image data instead. That required
using get/post, which is blocking. Blocking is bad.

So I tried getting the URL instead so I can use libURLDownloadToFile
instead.

I'm getting the same 0kb file problem.

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 06/04/2017 10:06 AM, Matt Maier via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Hokay, so, apparently post is a blocking command, which is a bad idea for
>> multiple potentially large files. So I'm trying to use this, but it's
>> still
>> downloading 1kb files.
>>
>> *put* "https:" & tImgUrl into tImgUrl
>>
>> *set* itemdelimiter to "/"
>>
>> *put* item -1 of tImgUrl into tImgName
>>
>> *set* itemdelimiter to comma
>>
>> *put* tNewFolder & "/" & tImgName into tNewFile
>>
>> libURLDownloadToFile tImgUrl,tNewFile
>>
>
> Multiple unknowns here.
> First of all, you're conflating 'post' and 'downloading' which is muchly
> confusing.
>
> I assume that tImgUrl starts with "//" at the start of this code.
> Otherwise you'll need to add it after the "https:" prefix.
>
> And don't you want a callback message to make it asynchronous?
> And remember to check the URLStatus in the callback handler.
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
>
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Re: how to download an image

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Hokay, so, apparently post is a blocking command, which is a bad idea for
multiple potentially large files. So I'm trying to use this, but it's still
downloading 1kb files.

*put* "https:" & tImgUrl into tImgUrl

*set* itemdelimiter to "/"

*put* item -1 of tImgUrl into tImgName

*set* itemdelimiter to comma

*put* tNewFolder & "/" & tImgName into tNewFile

libURLDownloadToFile tImgUrl,tNewFile

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 8:55 AM, Matt Maier <bluebac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I got bubble.is to send the base64 encoded image data instead of a link.
> So just putting the base64decoded data into URL is working.
>
> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
>> Scott’s routine worked for me too. It’s worth checking where the spaces
>> and returns there are in his test, I had to edit it from the email version.
>> I also just tested in the multiline message box. For testing in a button,
>> in LiveCode 8, you have to declare the variable as well. This was the whole
>> button script:
>>
>> on mouseUp
>>
>> local theURL
>>
>> put "http://s3.amazonaws.com/appforest_uf/f1496548544475x1403871
>> 06221169240/grilled_cheese_on_plate.jpg" into theURL
>>
>> put url theURL into url ("binfile:" & specialFolderPath("desktop") &
>> "/DLimage.jpg")
>>
>> end mouseUp
>>
>>
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stack & IDE not responding during download

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Every time my script downloads an image the entire interface and IDE locks
up and says "not responding" until the download finishes. I tried adding
"lock screen" but that didn't help.

*lock* screen

*put* tImg into tDis["img_thing"]

*set* the httpHeaders to "Content-Type: application/json" & cr &
"Authorization:
Bearer" && pToken

*put* jsonfromarray(tDis) into tPayload

*if* sMode is "test" *then*

*post* tPayload to URL "
https://howstr.bubbleapps.io/version-test/api/1.0/wf/get_img;

*else*

*post* tPayload to URL "https://howstr.bubbleapps.io/api/1.0/wf/get_img;

*end* *if*

*put* arrayfromjson(it) into tResponseA

*put* tResponseA["response"]["image"] into tNewImage

*put* tResponseA["response"]["filename"] into tNewImageName

*put* base64decode(tNewImage) into url ("binfile:" & tNewFolder & "/" &
tNewImageName)

*unlock* screen
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Re: how to download an image

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I got bubble.is to send the base64 encoded image data instead of a link. So
just putting the base64decoded data into URL is working.

On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Colin Holgate via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Scott’s routine worked for me too. It’s worth checking where the spaces
> and returns there are in his test, I had to edit it from the email version.
> I also just tested in the multiline message box. For testing in a button,
> in LiveCode 8, you have to declare the variable as well. This was the whole
> button script:
>
> on mouseUp
>
> local theURL
>
> put "http://s3.amazonaws.com/appforest_uf/f1496548544475x140387106221169
> 240/grilled_cheese_on_plate.jpg" into theURL
>
> put url theURL into url ("binfile:" & specialFolderPath("desktop") &
> "/DLimage.jpg")
>
> end mouseUp
>
>
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Re: how to download an image

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

That gives me a 375b corrupted file. So that's progress.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Scott Rossi via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Remove the first "binfile" usage, so your code reads like this:
>
> put URL tNewImageLink into URL ("binfile:" & tNewFolder & "/" &
> tNewImageName)
>
>
> I used the following to test download to the desktop and it works as
> expected:
>
> put
> "http://s3.amazonaws.com/appforest_uf/f1496548544475x140387106221169
> 240/gri
> lled_cheese_on_plate.jpg" into theURL
> put url theURL into url ("binfile:" & specialFolderPath("desktop") &
> "/DLimage.jpg")
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, UX/UI Design
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/3/17, 9:38 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Matt Maier via
> use-livecode" <use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com on behalf of
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm trying to download an image to a file but it's always 0kb
> >
> >Here's an example of the URL I've got //
> >s3.amazonaws.com/appforest_uf/f1496548544475x140387106221169
> 240/grilled_ch
> >eese_on_plate.jpg
> >
> >*put* URL ("binfile:" & tNewImageLink) into URL ("binfile:" & tNewFolder &
> >"/" & tNewImageName)
> >
> >
> >*get* url tNewImageLink
> >
> >*put* it into URL ("binfile:" & tNewFolder & "/" & tNewImageName)
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how to download an image

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I'm trying to download an image to a file but it's always 0kb

Here's an example of the URL I've got //
s3.amazonaws.com/appforest_uf/f1496548544475x140387106221169240/grilled_cheese_on_plate.jpg

*put* URL ("binfile:" & tNewImageLink) into URL ("binfile:" & tNewFolder &
"/" & tNewImageName)


*get* url tNewImageLink

*put* it into URL ("binfile:" & tNewFolder & "/" & tNewImageName)
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breakpoint on parameter

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I want to find out which parts of my code are making changes to a control's
parameter. Specifically, I've got an arrow that I want to be black, and it
is black when it's created, but then it turns gray. I can't find the script
that's turning it gray.

I don't know where to put a breakpoint in the script.

Can I put a breakpoint on that control's color parameter, so execution
stops whenever something modifies it and goes to the script that's doing
the modification?
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Re: develop a hybrid app

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

What's a language token?

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >
> >> Matt Maier wrote:
> >> > Is there a concise list of what Livecode can do on mobile devices?
> >>
> >> I'm not sure, but filtering the Dictionary with "mobile" will reveal
> >> language elements specific to those platforms.
> >
> > Okay, so am I doing it right if I find "mobileIdleTimerLocked()" and
> > interpret it to mean that on both ios and android I can find out if
> > the user has interacted with the phone because mobileIdleTimerLocked
> > will be false. Or mobileComposeTextMessage will let us bring up a
> > texting program with a message, but the user would still have to send
> > it.
> >
> > I don't see much else.
>
> ...for that specific question.  For the original question of "what
> LiveCode can do on mobile devices", when I filter the Dictionary with
> "mobile" I see dozens of language tokens.
>
>
> >> > Auto-reply - prewritten messages that go out when you're focusing
> >> > to explain what you're doing and when you'll be done. Like "I'm at
> >> > yoga. I'll check my phone at 5".
> >>
> >> That would be handled on the server, no?
> >
> > Wouldn't we need something on the phone to know that a call or text is
> > coming in?
>
> Ah, I see. As worded it wasn't clear what the app would be replying to.
>
> I don't believe LC currently offers a built-in solution for altering how
> incoming calls are handled, but if iOS provides an API for that you could
> write a library for it with LC Builder.
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: develop a hybrid app

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 8:39 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > Is there a concise list of what Livecode can do on mobile devices?
>
> I'm not sure, but filtering the Dictionary with "mobile" will reveal
> language elements specific to those platforms.


Okay, so am I doing it right if I find "mobileIdleTimerLocked()" and
interpret it to mean that on both ios and android I can find out if the
user has interacted with the phone because mobileIdleTimerLocked will be
false. Or mobileComposeTextMessage will let us bring up a texting program
with a message, but the user would still have to send it.

I don't see much else.


>
>
>
> > Auto-reply - prewritten messages that go out when you're focusing to
> > explain what you're doing and when you'll be done. Like "I'm at yoga.
> > I'll check my phone at 5".
>
> That would be handled on the server, no?
>

Wouldn't we need something on the phone to know that a call or text is
coming in?


>
> What are you using on the backend?


Bubble.is. It's just a web app right now. The idea is to make it "hybrid"
enough to access phone activity like incoming messages and interaction.


>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: develop a hybrid app

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Is there a concise list of what Livecode can do on mobile devices?

Activity tracking - some kind of awerenesses that the user interacted with
their phone during focus time. Did they turn the screen on, did they spend
time out if the lilspace app, did they send/receive messages. The idea is
to trigger a "not really focusing" flag. Stuff like music and photos would
be fine, 10 minutes on Facebook wouldn't.

Auto-reply - prewritten messages that go out when you're focusing to
explain what you're doing and when you'll be done. Like "I'm at yoga. I'll
check my phone at 5".


On May 4, 2017 06:37, "pink via use-livecode" 
wrote:

Access to phone functions is limited. On the iPhone is it extremely limited.

Can you be more specific about what you mean by "activity tracking" and
"auto-reply"?

Screen dimming and silent mode definitely cannot be triggered by an iPhone
app, I am not sure about Android but I doubt it can be done in LiveCode
without some sort of external being built. Your best bet would be to have
reminders setup to say "please switch on silent mode"

What else do you want such an app to do?



-
---
Greg (pink) Miller
mad, pink and dangerous to code
--
View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.
278305.n4.nabble.com/develop-a-hybrid-app-tp4714468p4714472.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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develop a hybrid app

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Any Livecode freelancers we can hire to build a hybrid app?

We've got a simple web app but most of the functions it needs require
direct access to the phone.

lilspace.me

The idea is for event organizers to incentivize and organize attendees to
"focus" on the event by putting their phone away and not looking at it for
a while. We've had about 100 people use the web app to track their time
focusing. Sooner or later we'll need things like auto-reply, screen
dimming, activity tracking, silent mode, etc so we might as well get
started on that now.
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Re: Swiping between cards - metaphor end-of-the-road?

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

That's a good point. Android apps commonly uses "swipe down" to trigger a
refresh. The swipe still physically happens, but there's just a gray
background behind it, and it pops back into place and resets.

The main problem seems to be what happens during a swipe. Part of the
effect is the feedback of seeing one card move on top of another. After the
swipe is completed we can just use regular messages to do whatever.

Another swipe effect would be pulling the next card in to fill the space
left by the moving card, rather than the next card being stationary
underneath.

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > Maybe each card could have a parameter like "swipeTo" which would be
> > the id of another card. Default could be nothing, which would disable
> > swipe. But if there's a card id in there then swiping would put that
> > card "underneath" so it's visible as the current card moves and if
> > the swipe gesture completes the stack moves to that new card.
> >
> > The swipe gesture might be just a scroll that's handled as a swipe
> > when the card can't scroll in that direction. Like if you swipe
> > up/down the content scrolls, but if you swipe left/right, since
> > there's no scroll in that direction, you get a swipe to another card.
>
> I like where you're going with that.  But it also suggests other options
> that would be useful, more stuff to think over before submitting a request.
>
> Rather than a single swipeDestination property to designate which card we
> go to during a swipte, ideally we'd want that for each of the four cardinal
> directions, e.g. swipeLeftDestination, swipeTopDestination, etc.
>
> Also, it would be nice to be able to specify the origin threshold, since
> sometimes we'd want to initiate a drag from any part of the card and other
> times only from a certain edge.
>
> Hmmm...not so simple once we dive into the full range of use-cases, but I
> do think it's worth exploring this here because it would be SO much
> simpler to use LC's card metaphor for modern apps if we had more fluid
> transition capabilities.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Swiping between cards - metaphor end-of-the-road?

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Maybe each card could have a parameter like "swipeTo" which would be the id
of another card. Default could be nothing, which would disable swipe. But
if there's a card id in there then swiping would put that card "underneath"
so it's visible as the current card moves and if the swipe gesture
completes the stack moves to that new card.

The swipe gesture might be just a scroll that's handled as a swipe when the
card can't scroll in that direction. Like if you swipe up/down the content
scrolls, but if you swipe left/right, since there's no scroll in that
direction, you get a swipe to another card.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Paul Dupuis via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 4/26/2017 3:02 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
> > Either way, the gestures themselves are only part of the challenge.
> > In fact, for card swiping we need only one, a swipe. The bigger part
> > is handling the dual-card render during the gesture.
>
>
> This would work (in theory) for the visualization except that didn't
> visual effect end in LC 8 with deprecating quicktime?
>
>   visual effect wipe left slowly
>   go next cd
>
>
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Re: this stack gets every closeStack message

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I think I figured it out. Thanks for the ideas about troubleshooting but
none of those rabbit holes were particularly informative.

Eventually while doing something else I went back through the dictionary
entries for the various commands that make use of external stacks. It
finally dawned on me that I had mindlessly listed this actual stack in the
same "start using" list as all of my script only library stacks. Then I was
also using "go to stack" when the user actually opened it.

So that makes sense, right? The reason it was getting every message like a
library stack is that I told Livecode to use it as a library stack. I think
I understand the different options a little better now. All I need is "go
to stack" with the file path at the moment I need the mainstack; I don't
have to include it previously or anything.

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 9:29 AM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> the executionContexts
> Bob S
>
> On Apr 4, 2017, at 19:22 , Matt Maier via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com<mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>
> wrote:
>
> I'm not aware of a way to "trace" where a message has been and the keywords
> I can think of aren't turning up anything promising in the dictionary or
> google.
>
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Re: revZip functions, compressing and extracting folder for transfer

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I pulled the zip archiving functions out of the Master Library stack.

It worked...except that it truncated the first character of every filename
in the archive.

This is the offending code from the addFolderToArchive handler:
put theFile into theArchiveItemName
put offset(pRootFolderPath, theArchiveItemName) into theCharNo
if theCharNo is 0 then return "file is not in expected folder"
delete char 1 to (the number of chars of pRootFolderPath + 1) of
theArchiveItemName # strip root folder up to slash (zip item names
shouldn't start with a slash)

The value I see for pRootFolderPath includes the ending slash, so the "+ 1"
here is deleting the first character of the filename.

Can I just remove the "+ 1"? Will that make it work on Windows but fail on
another system?

On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 12:49 PM, Phil Davis via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Here is a sanitized version of a simple zip library stack I use in
> projects. It keeps me from having to get down into the nuts and bolts every
> time I want to zip a file:
>
>https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8z27p8cy5ir1v9/libZip.livecode?dl=0
>
> HTH -
> Phil Davis
>
>
>
> On 3/4/17 9:25 AM, Matt Maier via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> Is there an overview or tutorial on how to use the revZip functions?
>>
>> Do I have to use each individual function to manually describe the process
>> of creating and using a zip archive?
>>
>> Like, to create the archive, do I have to write my own code to open it,
>> repeat for each file and/or each folder, find and specify the name and
>> contents and format of each file, then close it, then remember to delete
>> it
>> later...or is there a command somewhere that just takes a folder and
>> returns a zipped version of that folder?
>>
>> The same question for extracting an archive. Do I have to open it,
>> enumerate the files, repeat for each file and/or folder, figure out that
>> file's name, contents, and format, copy the file to an appropriate new
>> file, then close it, then remember to delete it later...or is there a
>> command that just takes a *.zip and returns an extracted folder?
>>
>> I already spent a couple hours trying various combinations of quotes
>> around
>> the parameters to add something to an archive before I figured out put the
>> data into the URL as a binfile manually. Then this morning I ran across a
>> different revZip function to add a file directly, instead of raw data,
>> which I guess is what I was doing. So it would be nice to find out that
>> there's already a function that does all of the obvious zip archive stuff
>> automatically and correctly.
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>>
> --
> Phil Davis
>
>
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Re: this stack gets every closeStack message

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

That's already what's happening. This stack is getting every closeStack
message that happens, even the ones that fire off when the IDE's windows
close. It's just a stack opened from a file. It shouldn't be in between the
IDE's windows and the the engine.

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Craig Newman via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Can you put a closeStack handler in the stack that seems like it ought not
> to be in the hierarchy, and see when it fires? Then maybe you can figure
> out what caused it?
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Matt Maier via use-livecode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> Cc: Matt Maier <bluebac...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tue, Apr 4, 2017 10:23 pm
> Subject: Re: this stack gets every closeStack message
>
> I'm not aware of a way to "trace" where a message has been and the keywords
> I can think of aren't turning up anything promising in the dictionary or
> google.
>
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 6:10 PM, dunbarx via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Two independent stacks are at the same "level" in the hierarchy. Unless
> one
> > is put into use or otherwise explicitly made to trap messages above
> another
> > stack (like inserting a stack script into back, for example), I am not
> sure
> > how you are seeing what you are seeing.
> >
> > Can you send a "closeStack" message from your "lower" stack and trace it?
> >
> > Craig Newman
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.
> > 278305.n4.nabble.com/this-stack-gets-every-closeStack-
> > message-tp4713692p4713694.html
> > Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > ___
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Re: this stack gets every closeStack message

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I'm not aware of a way to "trace" where a message has been and the keywords
I can think of aren't turning up anything promising in the dictionary or
google.

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 6:10 PM, dunbarx via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Two independent stacks are at the same "level" in the hierarchy. Unless one
> is put into use or otherwise explicitly made to trap messages above another
> stack (like inserting a stack script into back, for example), I am not sure
> how you are seeing what you are seeing.
>
> Can you send a "closeStack" message from your "lower" stack and trace it?
>
> Craig Newman
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.
> 278305.n4.nabble.com/this-stack-gets-every-closeStack-
> message-tp4713692p4713694.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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this stack gets every closeStack message

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

So I've got a mainstack (#1). It calls a different mainstack (#2) so that I
can save data like API keys in #2 stack before closing it.

When I'm in the IDE #2 stack is getting and responding to every single
closeStack message that happens, including when I close IDE windows (ex:
script editor, variable watcher, etc).

Does that mean stack #2 is being placed above everything, including the IDE
stacks, in the message hierarchy? Is there a way to have it not do that?
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Re: remote debugger on windows

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Thanks Monte. There was an instance of the standalone stuck in task
manager. Forcing that to end allowed the popup and debugging window to work
mostly as described.

It ran into an error when it got to revZipOpenArchive and the script died.
The debugger didn't do anything particularly helpful there, but it is nice
to know where the hard error happened. That's a line that works when I step
through it in the IDE.

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 4:49 PM, Monte Goulding via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hmm… the remote debugger uses sockets. You might want to check the IDE is
> being allowed to accept connections. Also perhaps check if there are any
> rogue processes of the standalone or IDE in the task manager.
>
> > On 5 Apr 2017, at 9:32 am, Matt Maier via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not trying to do anything fancy like debug an app on iOS/Android. I'm
> > just trying to debug a standalone running on my windows desktop.
> >
> > So I've got 9.0 dp 6
> > script debug mode is checked
> > test target is windows
> > remote debugger is checked in standalone inclusions
> >
> > I've tried just running a test from the IDE and saving as a standalone,
> > then running that standalone with the IDE also running. Neither gives me
> > the "remote debugging session" popup anymore. It appeared once or twice
> the
> > first time I tried but hasn't reappeared since then.
> >
> > The running application partially freezes at the moment when I would
> expect
> > the script window to popup due to a breakpoint. Some of the functions
> don't
> > respond, some do. No script window appears, no popup.
> >
> > Am I missing something?
> > ___
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remote debugger on windows

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I'm not trying to do anything fancy like debug an app on iOS/Android. I'm
just trying to debug a standalone running on my windows desktop.

So I've got 9.0 dp 6
script debug mode is checked
test target is windows
remote debugger is checked in standalone inclusions

I've tried just running a test from the IDE and saving as a standalone,
then running that standalone with the IDE also running. Neither gives me
the "remote debugging session" popup anymore. It appeared once or twice the
first time I tried but hasn't reappeared since then.

The running application partially freezes at the moment when I would expect
the script window to popup due to a breakpoint. Some of the functions don't
respond, some do. No script window appears, no popup.

Am I missing something?
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Re: [DIRECT-L] Director Replacement Suggestions & LiveCode with 3D Plugin

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I'm interested in 3D in Livecode. I  have no idea what any of the other
proper nouns in the message mean.

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 8:41 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Folks:
> This, from Paradigma. What do you think? Anybody interested in 3D in
> LiveCode?
> Bill
>
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Lynn Fredricks 
> > Subject: Re: [DIRECT-L] Director Replacement Suggestions & LiveCode with
> 3D Plugin
> > Date: March 27, 2017 at 4:54:34 PM PDT
> > To: direc...@listserv.uark.edu
> > Reply-To: Adobe Director 
> >
> >> LiveCode has been undergoing major rewriting and upgrading
> >> during the last two years. In my work I have found it to be
> >> quite fast. It is limited in that it has no web browser
> >> plugin, no physics engine, and no 3D.
> >
> > How important is 3D to you all?
> >
> > A few years ago, one of the Paradigma Software team members did a simple
> > wrap of the Irrlict Engine for LiveCode that works on Windows and MacOS
> X.
> > We did a couple of refreshes to fix bugs but there didn't seem to be
> much of
> > a demand (in our analysis, the current user base as of then rarely uses
> > components). We had all of the Irrlict examples ported over as well. It
> > actually got a bit more traction among Xojo users.
> >
> > If we can accertain if there's enough interest for it, we could look at
> > re-releasing it and give it more love and ongoing support. I have set up
> a
> > thread on the Paradigma forum where you can weigh in if this is of
> interest.
> >
> > http://valentina-db.com/en/discussion-forums/2723-
> franklin-3d-for-director-s
> > urvivors
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Lynn Fredricks
> > Paradigma Software
> > http://www.paradigmasoft.com
> >
> > Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server
> >
> > ---
> > Adobe Director Mailing List (Direct-L)
> > List Administrator:  Eve M. Owens (emow...@uark.edu)
> >
> > To SUBSCRIBE or to UNSUBSCRIBE go to
> > http://listserv.uark.edu/archives/direct-l.html
> > and click on
> > "Join or leave the list (or change settings)"
> >
> > For list archives
> > http://listserv.uark.edu/archives/direct-l.html
>
> ___
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Re: D3 LiveCode Chart Examples

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I get a "this repository is empty" message.

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 10:06 PM, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On Facebook people had expressed a desire to work with D3 and LiveCode. So,
> here is the D3 LiveCode Chart Examples on github:
> https://github.com/digitalpomegranate/D3-Livecode-Charts
>
> --Todd Fabacher & Digital Pomegranate Tame
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output the script line of a logging message

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

I'm adding some logging function calls to a script. Is there a way to
include the line number of the current line in the script?

Some of the messages are pretty similar, if not identical, so it would be
helpful when reviewing the logs to identify the message by the line number
the function was on when it logged the message.
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revZip functions, compressing and extracting folder for transfer

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Is there an overview or tutorial on how to use the revZip functions?

Do I have to use each individual function to manually describe the process
of creating and using a zip archive?

Like, to create the archive, do I have to write my own code to open it,
repeat for each file and/or each folder, find and specify the name and
contents and format of each file, then close it, then remember to delete it
later...or is there a command somewhere that just takes a folder and
returns a zipped version of that folder?

The same question for extracting an archive. Do I have to open it,
enumerate the files, repeat for each file and/or folder, figure out that
file's name, contents, and format, copy the file to an appropriate new
file, then close it, then remember to delete it later...or is there a
command that just takes a *.zip and returns an extracted folder?

I already spent a couple hours trying various combinations of quotes around
the parameters to add something to an archive before I figured out put the
data into the URL as a binfile manually. Then this morning I ran across a
different revZip function to add a file directly, instead of raw data,
which I guess is what I was doing. So it would be nice to find out that
there's already a function that does all of the obvious zip archive stuff
automatically and correctly.
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Re: Feedback on my LiveCode promo page

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

Maybe add a "date this was written" to put it in context.

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 8:54 AM, William Prothero via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Folks:
> I’ve been building a site to distribute my education applications. I have
> a page that is intended to promote the use of LiveCode for education
> applications. I’d be happy to get feedback and suggestions on things I may
> have left off.
>
> Link:  http://earthlearningsolutions.org/software-i-use/  earthlearningsolutions.org/software-i-use/>
>
> Regards,
> Bill
>
> William A. Prothero
> http://earthlearningsolution.org/
>
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Re: how to create a list in easyJSON

[Matt Maier via use-livecode]

As a warning for others, fastJSON is not directly interchangeable with
easyJSON.

I'm using a big array that has a couple levels of numeric keys before you
get to the text keys. When fastJSON converts the array to JSON it throws
out the numeric keys and just turns everything into a list.

I don't think that would actually be a problem, except that in my data
structure the [0] key has important metadata in it and when fastJSON
converts back from JSON to an array it doesn't start counting at 0, so all
of the data comes back but it's offset.

At least, this is the newest version of fastJSON from github and some old
version of easyJSON that I've had around for a long time (not sure what
version it is).

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Bob Sneidar 
wrote:

> Hmmm... all of this may explain why a table in a PDF fillable form breaks
> the controls out as columns, not records. So when populating an FDF file,
> my data needs to have each column in it's own variable, or else I have to
> do nested repeats to place it all correctly.
>
> Bob S
>
>
>
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button width on different platforms

[Matt Maier]

I've got some buttons with text in them. On Windows (where I develop) they
look fine. On Linux the buttons are a little bit narrower so the text is
cut off.

Anyone handled a similar problem?
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standalone settings .zip

[Matt Maier]

I haven't actually build a standalone in many months, so perhaps my memory
is fooling me.

Did Livecode used to automatically create .zip files for each of the
platforms?

I'm using Indy 8.1.1 at the moment. It's not creating separate .zip copies
and there's no option for that in the standalone settings. However, I
remember my old workflow being to upload the .zip copies to github as a
release.

Matt
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Re: how to create a list in easyJSON

[Matt Maier]

That's a good question. The stack doesn't have a version number in it, at
least not that I found.

On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 10:31 AM, pink  wrote:

> what version of easyJSON are you using? I just copied the library from:
> https://github.com/luxlogica/easyjson/blob/master/easyjson.lc
>
> used this code:
>put "12345" into tArray["one"][1]
>put "12345" into tArray["one"][2]
>put "12345" into tArray["one"][3]
>put "12345" into tArray["two"][1]
>put "12345" into tArray["two"][2]
>put jsonfromarray(tArray) into tWhatever
> and got:
> {"one":[12345,12345,12345],"two":[12345,12345]}
>
>
> I still recommend fastJSON over easyJSON:
> https://github.com/bhall2001/fastjson/blob/master/fastjson.lc
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.
> 278305.n4.nabble.com/how-to-create-a-list-in-easyJSON-
> tp4711279p4711302.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: how to create a list in easyJSON

[Matt Maier]

This code:

   put "12345" into tArray["one"][1]
   put "12345" into tArray["one"][2]
   put "12345" into tArray["one"][3]
   put "12345" into tArray["two"][1]
   put "12345" into tArray["two"][2]
   put jsonfromarray(tArray) into tWhatever

gives me this result:

{"one":{"3":12345,"1":12345,"2":12345},"two":{"1":12345,"2":12345}}

which is a multi-level array, rather than this, which is a single-level
array with lists

{"one":["12345","12345","12345"],"two":["12345","12345"]}

I'm not even sure how to distinguish between the two in Livecode. We parse
strings into lists so often that I'm not aware of a pure list data
structure. Livecode can interpret "12345,12345,12345" as a list if I tell
it to go by item, but it's just a string and that's how easyJSON is
treating it, as one string, not a list of strings.

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 10:08 AM, pink  wrote:

> in a nutshell, easyJSON creates what you want by using numeric keys
>
> so:
> array[one][1] = 12345
> array[one][2] = 12345
> array[one][3] = 12345
> array[two][1] = 12345
> array[two][2] = 12345
>
> would produce the results you are looking for (technically the numbers
> don't
> have to be sequential, it just has to be that all of the keys must be
> numeric)
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.
> 278305.n4.nabble.com/how-to-create-a-list-in-easyJSON-
> tp4711279p4711289.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: how to create a list in easyJSON

[Matt Maier]

   put "12345,12345,12345" into tArray["one"]
   put "12345,12345" into tArray["two"]
   split tArray["one"] by comma
   put jsonfromarray(tArray) into tWhatever

result

{"one":{"3":12345,"1":12345,"2":12345},"two":"12345,12345"}

So looks like that just created an array with a numeric index, which is
preserved in the JSON conversion.

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 10:12 PM, Andre Garzia <an...@andregarzia.com>
wrote:

> Try placing a:
>
>   Split tArray[one] by comma
>
> Before converting to json.
>
> Om om
> Andre
> Ps: typing on the phone, sorry for my brevity
>
> Em 30 de dez de 2016 15:29, "Matt Maier" <bluebac...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
> > I'm trying to send a list of strings to an API. Best I can tell it's
> > interpreting the entire list as one string. Is there a way to send data
> to
> > easyJSON such that it returns a JSON  list of strings instead of one
> > monolithic string?
> >
> > For example, I've got something like this:
> >
> > array[one] = 12345,12345,12345
> > array[two] = 12345,12345
> >
> > and what I get back from easyJSON is this:
> >
> > {"one":"12345,12345,12345","two":"12345,12345"}
> >
> > when what I'm trying to get is more like this
> >
> > {"one":["12345","12345","12345"],"two":["12345","12345"]}
> > ___
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how to create a list in easyJSON

[Matt Maier]

I'm trying to send a list of strings to an API. Best I can tell it's
interpreting the entire list as one string. Is there a way to send data to
easyJSON such that it returns a JSON  list of strings instead of one
monolithic string?

For example, I've got something like this:

array[one] = 12345,12345,12345
array[two] = 12345,12345

and what I get back from easyJSON is this:

{"one":"12345,12345,12345","two":"12345,12345"}

when what I'm trying to get is more like this

{"one":["12345","12345","12345"],"two":["12345","12345"]}
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Re: upload base64 encoded image data

[Matt Maier]

Thanks. I might not have done it correctly, but neither 1 nor 2 made a
noticeable difference.

I am a little confused by this. I tried copying out the base64 data to put
it into a different API testing app and it looks way too short. I'm not
familiar with how much text it takes to describe an image, but this doesn't
look like enough.

This also doesn't have the closing JSON tags like quotes and brackets. Is
the variable watcher just cutting off the content or is the content going
out to the API truncated like this?

uno=uno is 1=dos is
2={"private":false,"filename":"NK_Exoskeleton_B.jpg","content":"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
 
Wu2rzh32xlVbmPJNtbmtAdp6bHvbUzaC1rHMx3NpfX\/gl6T1vrRwjTTWS3KyXS14EhrRO57d3te9j\/R\/Rf6N64frPS3YuUwOpcx8Ov6hVWWuLST9mrvaxgf+jv8AQtssZR\/N\/uInbVF04Jb6drZcdznDawagD81ztp97v3GLc6Yx76Lsusn1se95ocx3M7vY11v8zk7Dv9N7\/Rzaf+E\/SLIbZjMskWGqtpB9XbuLavFux22v\/hLNnqf8Kuj6G6h1BqsssyWOyn0uLa5b6e6XN+0+9vovssbazGfTk\/pf5r0P09iYlP8AXX6q2\/sjp+fiw63Cx6aMot9o2tY1jMjTb+jb\/Nv\/AJHoqv03p+IL+kZ1Wa9zbqX4NJudstp6iweo2rZUfb61Psou2ZH+B\/n\/ALTSt76r29Xzn15OVl\/asJ9dlT69zTTZGnqMpc39LV+k+zutZZ6W+v8A0axPrR9Q6ensf1bpl1rcWpwdk1QX2Y9O9r\/WwbG+\/ZhO\/TbLP5uv9Jv\/AEKfdirUDWr6FTYLaWWjUPEyOJ\/O\/wCkpFcL0L6ymnKaHfpcXJuua7Irg+sT62RSyjCc+u7HzLrPUs9Fnr+p6\/ps9f8AM7LDzcTPxa8zCtbkY1w3V2s4Pi0g+5ljPo2VP\/SVv\/nEEGumrYlOopJIf\/\/T7kFSQwVIFFCPNYy3Dure0Oa9haQ4bhqRG5ss\/wCqXI\/Vnp1v1c6kLbXi\/C6gfspyQ3b6Ty9ppa9nu+z+rkPZW\/Y\/0b\/0S6rqN1VWDcbHuZuY5rNgBsL9rntZQx5ayy\/2foq\/8IuQ6Psv+tDcLMreK6yx7Krp9X1ml2ThMOyXfo3U\/aLbXO\/4Oz9H6iGqqb31s6fdkddwTbeK8W01bixzm21Cp+tj2tG11T7X+lv+n7\/U\/wC065rM6rZidRyrMcTR697DUOwaRsfV+56Vr7bGbPZ713WdVTk5D7z
 
aGl5bSywtJAYw66j+U61\/9dcz9a+g4bcerN6RXGY17vXrY4+nc3bue9tDt36497a\/fV\/O\/wCFQ4rNUiySdNtnnHvde

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 5:04 PM, hh  wrote:

> You could try two things after "put base64encode(tImage) into tImage64":
> replace newlines in the encodedData and give a data-header.
> Both is needed when setting HTML5 attributes, may be also in your case.
>
> [1] replace numToChar(10) with empty in tImage64
> [2] "content": 

Re: livecode post http request

[Matt Maier]

Is that a server variable? I don't have access to the server, it's someone
else's. I'm just sending it data.

On Dec 20, 2016 12:51, "Devin Asay" <devin_a...@byu.edu> wrote:

>
> On Dec 20, 2016, at 12:38 PM, Matt Maier <bluebac...@gmail.com luebac...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Is there a way to see the actual raw text of the http POST that Livecode
> sends when I use a command such as:
> post tSomeVariable to URL “www.whatever.com<http://www.whatever.com>"
>
> Matt,
>
> Does $_POST_RAW do what you want?
>
> Devin
>
>
>
> Devin Asay
> Director
> Office of Digital Humanities
> Brigham Young University
>
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livecode post http request

[Matt Maier]

Is there a way to see the actual raw text of the http POST that Livecode
sends when I use a command such as:
post tSomeVariable to URL "www.whatever.com"
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upload base64 encoded image data

[Matt Maier]

I'm trying to connect my desktop app to my Bubble.is app. They have a way
to build APIs.

https://bubble.is/reference#API.sending_data

I've got text uploading working. As in, I can upload text from the desktop
and work with it in the web app.

I've also got image URLs working. As in, I can include the URL of an image
that's already hosted somewhere online and the image will be pulled into
Bubble so I can work with it.

What's not working is uploading image data from the desktop app to the web
app.

I've formatted the body of the POST like this, which as far as I can tell
is what they want:
first=some thing=another
thing={"private":false,"filename":"some_filename.jpg","content":"a
string of base64 encoded image data"}

Since Bubble isn't returning any errors, but also isn't putting the
uploaded image data into the database as an image, I wondered if maybe I'm
doing something wrong on the Livecode side. I used this to process the
image data:

start using stack "easyJSON"
   put "C:\Users\some-image.jpg" into tFile
   put URL ("binfile:" & tFile) into tImage
   put base64encode(tImage) into tImage64
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Re: TreeView custom sort?

[Matt Maier]

Do you need the user to be able to interact with each named object
individually through the TreeView widget? If not, maybe you can just
replace the single object name with a list of all relevant objects in your
preferred sort order. You'd still get a hierarchy of groups that way. You
could just "open" the list in a list field to address an individual object.

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> Tore Nilsen wrote:
>
> > Could you build the initial array with the object names as keys, add
> > the layer numbers as part of the information you store about each
> > element,  then sort the array by layer numbers and set the array of
> > the tree view widget to the sorted array?
>
> Ah, but arrays aren't sortable per se.
>
> We can sort the keys of an array, but what we're doing there is sorting a
> delimited chunk.
>
> Associative arrays have no internal representation of order, so no matter
> what I do with the keys the array itself will remain a hash table of
> unpredictable order.
>
> I could prepend the top-level array key with a number, but this has two
> drawbacks:
>
> 1. Not being purely numeric, it can only sort alphabetically, producing
> things like this:
>
> 1 First item
> 11 Eleventh item
> 2 Second item
>
> 2. I'd prefer not to have the numbers visible to the user at all, since
> they would be just an artifice used for sorting and have no semantic
> meaning in my UI.
>
> If the TreeView offered options for using custom sort functions that might
> work well, esp. if I could alter keys as it goes so I could remove the
> numeric portion.  But at the moment I don't believe it does.
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: TreeView custom sort?

[Matt Maier]

I used rTree when I was trying to find a pre-built tree tool. It's pretty
good.
I think I actually got some code straight from the dev that wasn't posted
publicly. I haven't used it in a long time.
http://tapirsoft.on-rev.com/rtree/

As a side note, I just want to say that it's refreshing to see you have a
hard time explaining something ;) I rewrote this reply a few times as I
gradually figured out what you're asking for.

So is the problem that TreeView doesn't let you control what order the
branches are displayed in? It just dumps them out in a random order, or in
a single order that happens to be the wrong one for your use case?

Maybe there's a way to get it to sort by an invisible character? One that
affects the sort but isn't actually displayed on screen?

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> I need a sort of object browser, and have been playing around with the
> TreeView widget as a possible quick solution.
>
> Handy for many things, but being array-based it seems my options for
> sorting are limited.
>
> Like the IDE's Object Browser, I need a sort order which reflects physical
> layering of objects.
>
> I could number these as I add them to the array, but the numbers would be
> meaningless to the user, as they would be in the Object Browser.
>
> I'd like to show the object name instead, but I can't find a way to do
> that while maintaining a fixed order.
>
> Any ideas, or am I back to making a custom control for this?
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: JavaScript + LC HTML5 = LiveCode.js

[Matt Maier]

Richard,
Thanks for that explanation. I've heard you mention this setup several
times before but this is the most detail I've seen you put in one place.

Clarification question: do you cache the last stacks downloaded in case the
user isn't connected to a network?

On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 8:02 AM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Roger Eller wrote:
>
> > I disagree that you might as well be running a desktop app.  The
> > download of the helper would only be necessary once (like the old
> > RevWeb plugin). Back when we had the RevWeb plugin, my browser based
> > apps just worked.
> > Being in a position where localized automation is primarily what I
> > create for in-house users, this would allow me to update/maintain to
> > a single code-source, but without having my hands tied
> > capability-wise by the browser.
>
> That's exactly where a standalone is every bit as valuable as Mark was
> suggesting.
>
> We need not make every stack file into a standalone for our users to run
> it.
>
> All they need is one copy of the LiveCode engine, with just enough code so
> it knows where to download more stack files.
>
> Just as a version of the LC engine as a browser plugin can download and
> run stack files, any standalone already installed on the user's machine can
> do the same.
>
> But like you say, a standalone engine isn't limited to the confines of the
> browser, and devs deploying with a standalone never need to think about how
> to handle UI elements never intended for their app, like how to handle the
> browser's Back button.
>
> In addition to providing a better user experience through a UI dedicated
> to the tasks your app supports, "streaming stacks" can be safer too: with
> the relatively recent addition of the securityPermissions global property,
> it's possible to deliver standalones that download and run stacks that are
> safer than nearly any browser.
>
> Most of my work these days is with "streaming apps" - here's my setup:
>
>
> Client
> --
> - Standalone
>   Contains only enough code to download one stack file from
>   our server.
>
>   This is only a little more than:
>
>  go stack "https://somedomain.com/path/to/mainstackfile.livecode;
>
>   ...with some error-checking and one dialog to report errors if
>   encountered.
>
>   This standalone is downloaded and installed this only once.  We may
>   update it once every year or two when we truly need to update the
>   LC engine version we're using, but those times are rare.
>
>
> Server - Downloads
> --
> - Main Library
>   This is the stack file that gets downloaded first.  It contains all
>   other code and URLs the app will need to download and run other stack
>   files.
>
>   We can completely change all aspects of the app by changing this one
>   stack file on our server at any time.
>
> - Other stack files, downloaded as needed:
>
>   - login.livecode -- provides a UI for tasks requiring authentication
>
>   - admin.livecode -- UI for admin tasks for those users who've
>   authenticated with admin privileges.
>
>   - logs.livecode  -- Viewer for server logs to monitor usage and
>   provide diagnostics for errors (see below),
>
>   - other stacks   -- We can create and upload any task-specific UI
>   and/or code as needed, and download-n-run it
>   from any other.
>
> Server - Processing
> ---
> - LC standalone or LC Server running as CGI under Apache, providing:
>
>- data store access through REST API with CRUD operations
>
>- authentication and other user services
>
>- logging
>
>- anything else we need on the server to support user-specific data
>  management and sharing of data for collaborative workflows.
>
>
>
> Development
> ---
> - Upload Tool - automatically saves stack files I'm working on,
> compresses them, and uploads them to their respective
> locations on the server where the client standalone
> will find them.
>
> Many stack files are so small that the compression
> isn't really necessary, but I'm picky about performance
> and it never hurts to reduce transfer times where that
> can be done as easily as using LC's built-in compress
> and decompress functions.
>
>
>
> This setup lets us enhance and refine all aspects of the system at any
> time, and the user never needs to update the standalone they've installed.
> They just launch the app and since everything we write comes from the
> server they always have the latest build.
>
> I've had more than a few times when I've been in teleconferences with
> clients where we're discussing new features, and before the meeting is over
> I've already written the code and posted it to the server, and let them
> know that all they have to do to get the new feature is restart the app -
> as close 

Re: Problem (or something I'm doing odd) with $_POST and LC Server

[Matt Maier]

Maybe a configuration file is conflicting.

Since you moved the script to a different site there might be some
.htaccess (or whatever) that's got a piece of URL (or whatever) out of
place.

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 3:29 AM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:

> OK - I have half an answer to my own question 
>
> The failing form starts with
>
>  enctype='multipart/form-data'>
>
> If I remove theenctype='multipart/form-data'   part, it works OK.
>
> Now I need to find out why I did that in the first place, or how to get
> the same result in another way (the real form does allow file specification
> / upload).
>
> -- Alex.
>
>
> On 28/09/2016 01:00, Alex Tweedly wrote:
>
>> I have a script running happily on one web site, moved it over to another
>> site and it totally fails; it's a complex script, but I was able to reduce
>> it down to the following tiny script (see end of email).
>>
>> On the new site (hosted on on-rev), the $_POST array is empty, while on
>> the other site (hosted on hostm) it properly contains the posted values.
>>
>> I do see bug 16745 - but that is Windows specific, and is about
>> $_POST_RAW - so it's not that.
>>
>> Is there something I can do (or have done) in my config that would stop
>> this working, or would be needed to make it work ?
>>
>> Working site is http://ua886128.serversignin.c
>> om/susanirvine.co.uk/ttt.lc7   (NB the .lc7 extension tells it to use
>> version 7, so it gets 7.1.4)
>>
>> Failing site is http://melaniechmielewska.co.uk/ttt.lc
>>
>>
>> Any or all suggestions welcome - I can't have a site that doesn't get any
>> form input :-)
>>
>> The fallback is of course to just move this (and all my sites) to my
>> hostm account but that doesn't feel right (yet).
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> -- Alex.
>>
>> >
>> put  "get" & cr
>> repeat for each key K in $_GET
>>   put K && ":" && $_GET[K] & "" & CR
>> end repeat
>>
>> put  "post" & cr
>> repeat for each key K in $_POST
>>   put K && ":" && $_POST[K] & "" & CR
>> end repeat
>>
>> put version()
>>
>> ?>
>>
>>
>>
>> my Form
>> 
>> > enctype='multipart/form-data'>
>>   
>>   
>>   
>> 
>> 
>> Corbels
>> Archive
>> Recent
>> Thumbs
>> Commissions
>> 
>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: The Achilles heel of Android and iOS

[Matt Maier]

Of the two skills, engineering and sales, it's the sales skill that's more
generally useful (provided there are other humans around).

If an engineer does good engineering they STILL have to find a salesman.

If a salesman does good sales they don't necessarily even need a real
product or service at all.

Engineers don't like that, but it's as real as the sky being blue. You
don't have to manipulate the laws of physics to create value. All you have
to manipulate are people. And even if you do manipulate the laws of physics
you still have to manipulate people anyway.

On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 7:31 AM, Kay C Lan  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 8:13 AM, Alejandro Tejada
>  wrote:
> >
> > Buying a NEW PHONE or Tablet is almost like
> > BURNING MONEY, just for the fun of it.
> >
> > Just imagine this (not so far away) scenario:
> >
> > For any reason, people stop jumping in line
> > to buy the latest and greatest phone or tablet
> > and prefer to wait... and wait... just for a few weeks
> > or even a few months (because time flies
> > when you are busy),
>
> Yes and I have a crystal ball that tells me exactly when that is going
> to happen...
>
> 1st sign - the fashion industry disappears. Men and women no longer
> feel it's necessary to wear 'this season's fashion'. Designer shoe
> shops all disappear because no one needs Jimmy Chu's any more, a
> sensible pair of last year's pumps from Target will do just fine.
>
> 2nd sign - economical city cars, not SUVs (small trucks to the rest of
> the world) become America's most popular vehicle purchase. Men in
> particular no longer base their car purchasing preferences on the size
> of their genitalia.
>
> 3rd sign - Facebook, twitter, instagram and their ilk all fade into
> oblivion because no one feels the need to advertise to the world how
> great their life is, and what wonderful things they have, and how many
> more friends they have.
>
> 4th sign - the nightly news is predominately filled with feel good
> stories about individual random acts of altruism, especially to those
> of different race, religion, social or economic background.
>
> 5th and final sign - the world is in a massive depression that makes
> the 'Great Depression' look like a short period of austerity. Even so,
> people will be buying the latest and greatest with money they don't
> have right up until everything collapses around them and ONLY when no
> one will accept their CREDIT cards will they be FORCED to stop buying.
>
> But just to be clear, even after that day, if Apple is only 10% the
> size of what it is now, or maybe gone all together, someone somewhere
> will have to buy something that is better than what you or I have to
> prove that they are better than you or I.
>
> PS saw an excellent video of a couple of guys who went out to gauge
> user response to the new iPhone 7 the day it was officially announced
> - even though it wasn't actually available.
>
> One guy would ask people in the street if they had an iPhone 6 and if
> they'd like to try the iPhone 7, and if Yes, he told them that a new
> feature was the ability to very quickly migrate ALL user data to the
> iPhone 7 at which point he'd hand it to his colleague to do the
> transfer. Whilst this was happening the interviewer would ask the
> owner a couple of questions whilst the 'technician' simply cleaned the
> iPhone 6, removed the case and put a new one on. They'd then hand back
> the 6 to the owner who was 'amazed' at their data was all just there
> so quickly. And yes, many owners thought the iPhone 7 was smoother and
> brighter - cleaning, who'd have thought; but many also liked the
> lighter feel and faster response???
>
> And you wonder why people are so eager to go out a buy the latest and
> greatest when they can't even tell the difference with what they've
> already got. It's not about the phone/shoes/handbag/car, it's about
> the perception of 'the haves' vs 'the have nots'.
>
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Re: Detect lat/long Intersections

[Matt Maier]

You can try using within(object, point) if you define an object using the
points on the boundary of your detection area.

If your area is easy to define then you can just test it. For example, if
it's a circle then you only need to measure the distance between the bus's
location and the center of the circle. If it's a rectangle then you just
measure if the point is less than and greater than the bounding latitude
and longitude.

On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 4:24 AM, Javier Miranda V. 
wrote:

> In my effort to get insight about the operations of a public
> transportation company, I was finally able to get the location of the units
> (buses), using LiveCode´s GET URL and the platform´s API they use for
> tracking. While I still need to “polish" some operations with the returned
> JSON, Array etc.  I came with something I have to resolve:  How can I
> determine that a bus has entered an area? The returned information (JSON) I
> got has the lat and lng name/value pairs. I also have the lat/lng of the
> point(s) I want to monitor.
>
> Hope the above is understandable, any help welcome!
>
>
> Javier Miranda V.
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Re: use "" as an array key

[Matt Maier]

Thanks for explaining that gotcha in detail.
I've had a few problems before when I relied on the 99% awesome debugger
and variable watcher only to find out that it wasn't showing me the many
characters that exist, and affect code, but are technically invisible.

On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 6:26 AM, Kay C Lan  wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 2:27 AM, Peter TB Brett
>  wrote:
> >
> > "" isn't "the absence of a string", it's a string that's 0 characters
> long.
> > Being able to use it as an array key is important for being able to
> > represent real-world data in an array.
>
> It's an important point that "", a 0 character string is not the same
> as NULL because we as humans often 'see them' as the same.
> Unfortunately one of the great features of LC, the fact it's typeless
> and it auto converts integers/strings/dates back and forward as we
> need them, also means that occasionally it makes the same mistake we
> make:
>
> In the msg box - 8 lines all ending with msg:
>
> put "empty = " & quote & quote & " is " & (empty = "") into msg
> put cr & "empty = NULL is " & (empty = NULL) after msg
> put cr &  "navtiveCharToNum(empty) = " & nativeCharToNum(empty) after msg
> put cr &  "natvieCharToNum(" & quote & quote & ") = " &
> nativeCharToNum("") after msg
> put cr &  "nativeCharToNum(NULL) = " & nativeCharToNum(NULL) after msg
> put cr & "Therefore:" after msg
> put cr & "navtiveCharToNum(empty) = nativeCharToNum(NULL) is " &
> (nativeCharToNum(empty) = nativeCharToNum(NULL)) after msg
> put cr & "So although an empty string is NOT the same as the NULL
> character, in some cases LC treats them the same" after msg
>
> or to put it another way, "" and empty do not roundtrip
>
> In the msg box:
>
> put numToNativeChar(nativeCharToNum(empty)) = empty  --returns false
>
> When dealing with databases, tracking the difference between NULL and
> empty and "" can be a real pain. Is this a feature or a bug? To me the
> advantages of 'typeless' far outweigh the 0.001% of times I hit this
> gotcha.
>
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use "" as an array key

[Matt Maier]

I find myself in want of a YAML library again. Mark posted some functions
on the forum that I'm debugging
http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=7=21434

Something I discovered while debugging is that "" is being accepted as an
array key.

It seems like it shouldn't be possible to use the absence of a string as an
array key. Is it supposed to work that way? I'm using 8.0.1 on Windows.
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Re: What's everyone working on this month? (September 2016)

[Matt Maier]

I've been building a website in Livecode and revIgniter. I wanted a
passwordless authentication system so I had to roll that from scratch.

Now I'm connecting my desktop app to the website so that users can sync
their projects and make them available online.

This way people who know how to make things, and want to share (focusing on
open source hardware) can easily keep track of all the details. People who
need to know how to make things can get a BOM and instructions all neatly
organized and up to date.

The website (bare bones at the moment) is https://www.howstr.com

You can learn about and download Howstr here http://github.howstr.com

If you're a Livecode developer looking for contract work I'd be interested
in discussing specific projects. There aren't many Livecode devs around.

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Peter TB Brett 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> What exciting LiveCode project(s) are you working on at the moment? Where
> can we find out more about them?  Have you run into any interesting
> problems (or solutions) that you'd like to share?
>
> --
>
> In the office, I'm currently trying to figure out what tools I can build
> to help with core dev team productivity.  For example, I'm planning to
> create a tool that keeps our Bugzilla site (http://quality.livecode.com/)
> synchronised with what's going on in our git repositories (
> https://github.com/livecode/)
>
> In my spare time:
>
> - I've been adding some stuff to my somewhat-insane open source
> "undergrowth" library of pure-LCB bits and pieces (
> https://github.com/peter-b/undergrowth), including a templated string
> formatting function:
>
> u_format("There are {} lights", [5])   --> "There are 5 lights"
>
> - I've now written a reasonably usable Emacs mode for LCB source code (
> https://github.com/peter-b/lcb-mode), with syntax highlighting and
> indentation support.  It turns out LCB code (and LiveCode script) is
> actually very difficult to highlight well without compiler support because
> of LiveCode's English-like syntax, but lcb-mode does the job adequately for
> the time being
>
> - I've got the idea of making it possible to write externals in Rust going
> round (and round) inside my head but I haven't yet got round to getting it
> working.
>
> --
>
> What are you up to?
>
>  Peter
>
> --
> Dr Peter Brett 
> LiveCode Technical Project Manager
>
> lcb-mode for Emacs: https://github.com/peter-b/lcb-mode
>
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Re: Missing a chance

[Matt Maier]

Yeah, nobody I talk to or read has ever heard of Livecode. One of the
larger freelance developer recruiting websites doesn't even bother to ask
anyone if they know Livecode, and I half suspect they had to google it
before they answered my question.

I'm not really looking forward to having to get developers trained up from
scratch before they can work with me, but it is what it is.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Richard Gaskin  wrote:

> Richmond wrote:
>
> > On 25.08.2016 22:21, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >> Richmond wrote:
> >>
> >> > Livecode is so not here it makes me howl:
> >> >
> >> > https://elearningindustry.com/list-of-authoring-tools-part-1
> >> > https://elearningindustry.com/list-of-authoring-tools-part-2
> >> > https://elearningindustry.com/37-authoring-tools
> >>
> >> Yes, there are many thousands of tools lists across the web, and it's
> >> always good to add LC to those when we come across them.
> >>
> >> But I don't understand the "howl" - was your nominating LC to that
> >> one rejected?
> >
> > No my howl was because I shouldn't hgave to add LC: it should be one
> > of the automatic authoring tools of choice.
>
> Why?
>
> We here on this list know LiveCode well, and we know that we can craft
> excellent authoring tools with it.
>
> But unless we spread the word, how can we expect the word to be spread?
>
> Carpe diem!
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Atom Issues

[Matt Maier]

Thanks, but that didn't change anything.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Mike Kerner <mikeker...@roadrunner.com>
wrote:

> Here is a partial fix for the autocomplete issues.
> Settings->Packages->Autocomplete-plus  Then find "Keymap for confirming a
> suggestion" and change it to tab, and uncheck "Automatically Confirm Single
> Suggestion"
>
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Matt Maier <bluebac...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I keep getting a red error popup every time I finish writing a word. It
> > cites the autocomplete-plus package. No idea how to get it to stop
> covering
> > half the window in red error messages.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Mike Kerner <mikeker...@roadrunner.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I even run into this situation with enter when typing "then" for an "if
> > > then".
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Mike Kerner <
> mikeker...@roadrunner.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Here's another one:  Once atom memorizes a token (say, for example
> one
> > > > that's a typo, perhaps with capitalization that's wrong, because
> > > > capitalization matters in LCB), how do you get rid of the wrong
> token?
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Mike Kerner <
> > mikeker...@roadrunner.com
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I'm not hitting Enter because I want to accept the suggestion.  I'm
> > > >> hitting Enter because I want a CR.  So Enter is more like "ignore
> the
> > > >> suggestion and give me a CR"
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Colin Holgate <
> > colinholg...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> That sounds like the nature of auto complete. You could work around
> > the
> > > >>> issue by using Tab to do the completing.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> > On Aug 23, 2016, at 8:36 AM, Mike Kerner <
> > mikeker...@roadrunner.com>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>> >
> > > >>> > Does anyone have any issues using Atom that they want to share?
> I
> > > >>> have one
> > > >>> > that is biting me frequently:  If Atom is trying to suggest a
> > token,
> > > >>> and I
> > > >>> > hit CR, I don't get a CR.  If I'm not watching, I can wind up
> with
> > > >>> several
> > > >>> > lines all appended together.  Instead of having to do cmd-CR to
> > get a
> > > >>> CR,
> > > >>> > I'd kind of like CR do to what it normally does in every other
> app
> > I
> > > >>> use.
> > > >>> >
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ___
> > > >>> use-livecode mailing list
> > > >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > > >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > >>> subscription preferences:
> > > >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > > >> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > > >> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> > > >>and did a little diving.
> > > >> And God said, "This is good."
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > > > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> > > >and did a little diving.
> > > > And God said, "This is good."
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> > >and did a little diving.
> > > And God said, "This is good."
> > > ___
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: open stack

[Matt Maier]

Ah, yes, thank you. It looks like the defaultFolder must have been wrong.
Manually setting it to the same folder as the stack works.

I'm getting deja vu...like I complained about how the error message should
mention that it failed because it couldn't find the file in the folder
where it looked, instead of just "there was an error."

Anywho, I'm trying to add a dictionary entry for "open stack" with an
example of setting the defaultFolder first.

On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Mike Bonner <bonnm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you're working in the ide, chances are the defaultfolder is not set to
> point to the correct place, which would mean you'd need to provide a full
> path to the stack you want to open, or set the default folder to point to
> the right place.
>
> the line "if there is a stack tFilename then open stack tFilename"  would
> not cause an error. It would either open the stack if it sees it (see the
> sentence above) or do nothing.  If you want to go that route for better
> information, do this..
>
> if there is a stack tfilename then
> open stack tfilename
> else
> answer information "No such stack"
> end if
>
> Alternatively, when you try to open the stack, check to see whats in "it"
> and "the result"  Often one or the other will provide useful information.
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 2:03 AM, Matt Maier <bluebac...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What's up with this not working?
> >
> > http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/17375-how-do-i-save-
> > custom-properties-in-a-standalone-application
> >
> > This is a really simple tutorial that I followed, but I get an error at
> the
> > "open stack" statement.
> >
> > I tried replacing it with this, but even though it doesn't error it also
> > doesn't open the "Main Application" stack.
> >
> > if there is a stack tFileName then open stack tFileName
> >
> > I tried replacing it with this, and the try statement does trigger the
> > catch, but there's nothing in the error variable.
> >
> > put "Main Application.livecode" into tFileName
> >try
> >   open stack tFileName
> >catch tError
> >   answer tError
> >end try
> >
> > The go command doesn't work either.
> >
> > Both stacks are in the same folder.
> >
> > The open command isn't even in the dictionary, although it is in the
> online
> > documentation.
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
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open stack

[Matt Maier]

What's up with this not working?

http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/17375-how-do-i-save-custom-properties-in-a-standalone-application

This is a really simple tutorial that I followed, but I get an error at the
"open stack" statement.

I tried replacing it with this, but even though it doesn't error it also
doesn't open the "Main Application" stack.

if there is a stack tFileName then open stack tFileName

I tried replacing it with this, and the try statement does trigger the
catch, but there's nothing in the error variable.

put "Main Application.livecode" into tFileName
   try
  open stack tFileName
   catch tError
  answer tError
   end try

The go command doesn't work either.

Both stacks are in the same folder.

The open command isn't even in the dictionary, although it is in the online
documentation.
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Re: Atom Issues

[Matt Maier]

I keep getting a red error popup every time I finish writing a word. It
cites the autocomplete-plus package. No idea how to get it to stop covering
half the window in red error messages.

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Mike Kerner 
wrote:

> I even run into this situation with enter when typing "then" for an "if
> then".
>
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Mike Kerner 
> wrote:
>
> > Here's another one:  Once atom memorizes a token (say, for example one
> > that's a typo, perhaps with capitalization that's wrong, because
> > capitalization matters in LCB), how do you get rid of the wrong token?
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:42 AM, Mike Kerner  >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not hitting Enter because I want to accept the suggestion.  I'm
> >> hitting Enter because I want a CR.  So Enter is more like "ignore the
> >> suggestion and give me a CR"
> >>
> >> On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Colin Holgate  >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> That sounds like the nature of auto complete. You could work around the
> >>> issue by using Tab to do the completing.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > On Aug 23, 2016, at 8:36 AM, Mike Kerner 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > Does anyone have any issues using Atom that they want to share?  I
> >>> have one
> >>> > that is biting me frequently:  If Atom is trying to suggest a token,
> >>> and I
> >>> > hit CR, I don't get a CR.  If I'm not watching, I can wind up with
> >>> several
> >>> > lines all appended together.  Instead of having to do cmd-CR to get a
> >>> CR,
> >>> > I'd kind of like CR do to what it normally does in every other app I
> >>> use.
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> use-livecode mailing list
> >>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> >>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >>> subscription preferences:
> >>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> >> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> >> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> >>and did a little diving.
> >> And God said, "This is good."
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> >and did a little diving.
> > And God said, "This is good."
> >
>
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
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livecode JSON extension

[Matt Maier]

I'm using a stack written by someone else that's trying to call what
appears to be a built-in JSON library.

For example, it will call jsonImport() on some JSON, but won't find that
handler. The error says to check to see if the "com.livecode.library.json"
extension is checked in the standalone application settings.

I've checked and unchecked that extension several times. It's always
checked when I open the stack. How do I get Livecode to actually use that
extension?
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Re: put one array after another

[Matt Maier]

I second the vote for a YAML library. It makes text and arrays work
together a lot better than JSON.

The way I've been tracking arrays in text for documentation purposes is
basically just a table at heart:

array[first-key][this-key] = whatever
array[first-key][that-key] = foobar
array[2nd-key][some-key] = data
array[2nd-key][another-one] = more data
array[3rd-key][sub-key][new-level] = fake data
array[3rd-key][sub-key][next-level] = probably also fake data
array[3rd-key][sub-key][here-we-go-again] = totally the real data

Usually I'll omit the redundant text, which helps me think of it as a tree

array[first-key][this-key] = whatever
[that-key] = foobar
array[2nd-key][some-key] = data
  [another-one] = more data
array[3rd-key][sub-key][new-level] = fake data
   [next-level] = probably also fake data
   [here-we-go-again] = totally the real data

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Quentin Long wrote:
>
> > I don't know if there's a command that will do the job. However,
> > there's a construction I use when I merge two list variables into one:
> >
> > put ItemList2 into item (1 + the number of items in ItemList1) of
> > ItemList1
> >
> > That construction may seem a little weird, but it does the job. So
> > *if* the same sort of logic applies to arrays, something like this
> > might do the job:
> >
> > function ConcatArray Array1, Array2
> >   -- if this was a real function, it would confirm that Array1 and
> Array2 are both, you know, *arrays*
> >   put the number of lines in the keys of Array1 into A1
> >   put the keys of Array2 into key (A1 + 1) of Array1
> >   return Array1
> > end ConcatArray
>
> The "*if*" there is critical, as strings (LC lists) do not work like
> arrays.
>
> I'm not sure of the specifics of LC's implementation, but this general
> discussion may be useful:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associative_array#Implementation
>
> In brief (and woefully oversimplified), we could conceive of an array as a
> collection of memory addresses, in which each address is derived from a
> hashing function applied to the key.
>
> This is why when we try to display an array in a field it shows empty -
> there is no single string for the array data, its contents instead spread
> across multiple locations linked together through pointers. Indeed, given
> that arrays can be nested, it's non-trivial to come up with a string
> representation to meaningfully represent them.*
>
> In contrast to the actual structure of an array, using the keys function
> does return a string, a return-delimited list of the key names.  But the
> creation of that string is copying the keys from the actual array
> structure, and not the structure itself.
>
> So given an array which we could notate as:
>
>   Array2/
> key "a" = value "SomeValue"
> key "b" = value "SomeOtherValue"
>
> ...the line above that reads:
>
>   put the keys of Array2 into key (A1 + 1) of Array1
>
> ...would first get a string comprised of copies of the key names, like
> this:
>
>a
>b
>
> ...then add 1 to the number of lines there to get 3, and then use that as
> the string list of key names as the value of element Array1[3]
>
> That is, if the syntax "...into key  of " was
> something LC did - using LC we'd need to write that as:
>
>put the keys of Array2 into Array1[A1+1)
>
> But while that modified line would execute, it still won't do what we want
> here.  It applies a return delimited string of key names as a value to a
> single element, and what we're looking for is a method of bulk copying the
> actual array elements.
>
>
> This post may seem tediously long and pedantic, but bear with me, as I
> think we're discovering an opportunity for an enhanced array tutorial.
>
> The conceptualization of the role of array keys here closely matches one
> we saw a couple weeks ago on this list, in which a very experienced
> developer was attempting to use the keys of an array as a sort of bulk
> copying method for the array elements.
>
> Whether we have a good means of doing that bulk copying already (union
> seems useful here) is less interesting to me than the conceptualization
> itself.  There may be value exploring ways we might make the
> conceptualization of arrays more closely match their actual structure,
> hopefully making it easier for us to anticipate how the various syntax for
> arrays can and can't be used for a given task.
>
> Many years ago Dar Scott put together a wonderfully animated tutorial on
> LiveCode (then "Revolution") Message Mechanics, available here:
> http://pages.swcp.com/dsc/revstacks.html
>
> I wonder if we might have a similarly inventive soul among us who may be
> able to deliver something as nice for explaining array structure.
>
> As with Dar's stack, this may well be a case where illustrations, esp.
> animated ones, might help far more than any explanatory text alone.
>
> Arrays are 

Re: put one array after another

[Matt Maier]

Thanks Tore, yeah that works. I was just curious if there was a way to do
it directly. Anytime the syntax is simpler there are fewer chances to make
a mistake.

I found "append" in the dictionary but it's not really documented and I
couldn't get a script to compile with it.

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 7:51 PM, Tore Nilsen <tore.nil...@me.com> wrote:

> You could try this, it works if the array is declared global or local, and
> should work if  the arrays are script local if both arrays are constructed
> within the same handler
>
> repeat for each key tKey in tSecondArray
>
> put tSecondArray[tKey] into tFirstArray[tKey]
>
> end repeat
>
>
> Regards
> Tore
>
>
> > 10. aug. 2016 kl. 18.41 skrev Matt Maier <bluebac...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > Is there a command to merge two array variables into one?
> >
> > Example:
> >
> > tFirstArray[tom] = mot
> > tFirstArray[jane] = enaj
> >
> > tSecondArray[bill] = llib
> > tSecondArray[name] = eman
> >
> > put tSecondArray after tFirstArray
> >
> > tFirstArray[tom] = mot
> > tFirstArray[jane] = enaj
> > tFirstArray[bill] = llib
> > tFirstArray[name] = eman
> > ___
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> subscription preferences:
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put one array after another

[Matt Maier]

Is there a command to merge two array variables into one?

Example:

tFirstArray[tom] = mot
tFirstArray[jane] = enaj

tSecondArray[bill] = llib
tSecondArray[name] = eman

put tSecondArray after tFirstArray

tFirstArray[tom] = mot
tFirstArray[jane] = enaj
tFirstArray[bill] = llib
tFirstArray[name] = eman
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Re: OT: Switch it off and back on ...

[Matt Maier]

I think the stuff I read about crash-only said that it's normally
implemented in a hierarchy. So you try to restart little processes. If they
come back up and work correctly then nothing else is affected. If they
don't, then you crash the larger process. And so on.

On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Richard Gaskin <ambassa...@fourthworld.com>
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > I was reading about "crash only" programming a while ago. It like
> > using the "turn it off and back on again"approach as a part of normal
> > business. Since all of your systems need to be able to recover from a
> > crash anyway, why bother programming a graceful shutdown? Just set
> > them up so that they can pick up where they left off and crash them
> > if anything isn't running perfectly.
>
> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2016-July/228647.html
>
> :)
>
> I like the simplicity of crash-only.  But I currently enjoy a
> below-industry-average support cost; I can't imagine how big of a multiple
> of that average my support costs would be if I rebooted the user's machine
> instead of providing a more graceful degradation.
>
> Still, tempting
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: OT: Switch it off and back on ...

[Matt Maier]

Because we're capable of building systems more complex than we can
understand. So there are always ghost states it can get into that we didn't
prepare for.

I was reading about "crash only" programming a while ago. It like using the
"turn it off and back on again"approach as a part of normal business. Since
all of your systems need to be able to recover from a crash anyway, why
bother programming a graceful shutdown? Just set them up so that they can
pick up where they left off and crash them if anything isn't running
perfectly.

On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:

> My wife is always annoyed / amused that my stock response to any
> non-trivial computer / broadband / phone problem is the magic "power-cycle"
> method. As she says "4 years getting a BSc in Computer Science, 25 years in
> the electronics design and software business - and that's the best you can
> do". I suspect the most annoying part for her is that it nearly always
> works :-)
>
> Anyway, today that technique just worked again - when even I didn't expect
> it to. Her new iPhone (two weeks old) was in trouble - it wouldn't charge.
> We tried multiple different connector cables, and power sources just to be
> sure - but it just wouldn't register the power supply, and power was down
> to around 10%. So I made sure we had a current iCloud backup, installed
> Telegram on her iPad while she still had some charge left (to get the SMS
> to confirm the main phone number) so she could still get/send messages (and
> let the main contacts know via What's App). And then (with NO expectations
> of success) switched it off and back on - and the darn thing is now happily
> charging.
>
> Why can't we build tech items that don't suffer such problems and get
> fixed by this solution 
>
> -- Alex.
>
>
>
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file upload options

[Matt Maier]

I'm trying to figure out if I should code a solution into my desktop app or
just tell people to use a 3rd-party app like WinSCP.

What I think I need people to be able to do is "sync" a project folder on
their computer with a repository I'm hosting for them on my site. The
folder will have multiple files of various types.

Just from what I've picked up so far, it seems like all of the options
(put, post, FTP) can't upload in parallel. Additionally, it would make
sense to only upload new and/or changed information rather than everything
every time.

I'm inferring that it might save a lot of time to just figure out how to
setup some kind of secure FTP access for each user to their repository and
tell them to use a tool that's already built for the time being. Otherwise
I'll have to basically recreate the core functionality of an FTP client.

I suppose a theoretical alternative is to carefully track all of the
changes the user makes to their project folder so they can be uploaded one
at a time, without actually comparing anything or working in parallel.

I'm estimating time based on how much I understand of the example stacks
from HostM.com. https://www.hostm.com/tutorials/livecode/api-mariadb-mysql
I got them working (with just an echo instead of the database), but there's
a lot of stuff in there I left alone, like figuring out how to deal with
version numbers, unicode, POST, HTTP headers, etc. Presumably, multipart
file uploads, and full directory uploads, will be a huge pain without an
equivalent template stack.
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Re: Ideas for LiveCode workshops - help needed

[Matt Maier]

hostm.com has a tutorial with a desktop stack and server scripts that
allows you to add users to a database on the server from the desktop using
HTTPS.

It would be neat to have a generic "track stuff" app in Livecode that's got
all the if-then's and libraries and whatnot to be compiled and work on
every platform. That way people could just expand on the "stuff to track"
part because the rest of it already works. Sort of a bare bones personal
cloud type thing with clients for every platform. Getting the platforms to
talk to each other is esoteric.

On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 6:04 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> How about a client-server user registration system?
>
> Everyone needs one, and in addition to being widely useful it would
> demonstrate making HTTPS calls from LC clients, server-side DB use, and
> other things that play an ever more pervasive role in our increasingly
> cloud-driven world.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: typo

[Matt Maier]

Wasn't planning to make a habit out of this, but here's another one. Unles
"variabable" was a punny easter egg. Maybe some kind of Freudian slip.
http://samples.on-rev.com/get.irev

"...added with the following syntax:

http://www.yoururl.com?variabableName1=value&...;


I'll stop if someone can point me towards a comprehensive explanation of
how to connect Livecode scripts on all of the different platforms to each
other.

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:41 PM, [-hh] <h...@hh.on-rev.com> wrote:

> Hi Klus and Dr.Hwkins,
>
> sorry, searched without "a".
> But off topic is off topic, so I'll insist on that:
>
> Matt writes:
> '.. this sentence shouldn't have an "a" in it.'
> And this sentence(*) has two "a" in it.
>
> He could have written
> '.. this sentence shouldn't have an "a " in it.'
>
> Else we have two spaces (one too much) there and
> also the word "tem".
>
> Perhaps "onto your tem" makes sense? A hidden message?
> If we scramble the chars we get "to mentor you" ...
>
> (*)The sentence:
> "Let us run the recruitment process to help you hire a the
> right new LiveCode developers onto your team"
>
> Regrds, Hermnn
> Klaus major-k wrote
> > Hi Hermann,
> >
> >> Am 30.07.2016 um 17:00 schrieb [-hh] 
>
> > hh@.on-rev
>
> > :
> >>
> >> [1] As to the sentence you cite:
> >> Why should have "your team" no "a"?
> >> Or: What means "your tem?"
> >
> > there is an "a" too much right after "hire":
> >
> >>> ...to help you hire a the right new LiveCode developer...
> >
> >
> >> [2] The sentence you cite is not there.
> >> https://livecode.com/services/
> >
> > It is! Just copied this paragraph from that webpage:
> > ...
> > Developer Recruitment Support
> > Do you need more LiveCode developers on your team?
> > Let us run the recruitment process to help you hire a the right new
> > LiveCode developers
> > onto your team. We can also provide optional training to the new
> > developers.
> > ...
> >
> >> Matt Maier wrote
> >>> It's off topic, but in the spirit of wanting Livecode to be as good as
> >>> it
> >>> can be, this sentence shouldn't have an "a" in it.
> >>>
> >>> https://livecode.com/services/
> >>>
> >>> "Let us run the recruitment process to help you hire a the right new
> >>> LiveCode developers onto your team"
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Klaus
> > --
> > Klaus Major
> > http://www.major-k.de
>
> > klaus@
>
> >
> >
> > ___
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>
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>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/typo-tp4707103p4707111.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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typo

[Matt Maier]

It's off topic, but in the spirit of wanting Livecode to be as good as it
can be, this sentence shouldn't have an "a" in it.

https://livecode.com/services/

"Let us run the recruitment process to help you hire a the right new
LiveCode developers onto your team"
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Re: Multi-level Undo?

[Matt Maier]

I looked into it a while back. A few basic options are:
- rationalize all of the user's actions into a list of named actions, keep
track of the actions in order, and then have the engine execute the list.
if the user uses undo, just move a marker one item backwards in the list,
so that the engine only gets up to the marker. If they use redo, move the
marker ahead one item
- save a complete copy of the working file after every change. use up as
much space as you want and start overwriting the oldest version. if a user
uses undo, load an older version. if they use redo, load a newer version.
- carefully control your engine's options so that they are all perfectly
undoable, with no remainders or side effects. if the user uses undo, just
execute the exact opposite of the last operation. if they use redo, just
execute the exact same operation again.

You can mix and match among these options. I used the first one there and
my files never got anywhere close to big enough that you'd notice they were
being regenerated from scratch after every change. That depends on your
task, though; mine was text and some simple vectors.

On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Peter Reid  wrote:

> Is there any way of supporting multi-level undo in LiveCode?
>
> My current project provides support for the user to manipulate objects
> (grouped vector objects).  The user can grab objects, move them around the
> window, group/ungroup, align, cut, copy, paste and undo.  However the undo
> is single level only.
>
> Can anyone suggest a way of providing multi-level undo, even if only 3
> levels?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Peter
> --
> Peter Reid
> Loughborough, UK
>
>
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Re: the keys of the dragData?

[Matt Maier]

I think it should be "the keys of the dragData of something" or just "the
keys of dragData".
On May 27, 2016 17:58, "David Bovill"  wrote:

This isn't working for me in 8.1:

> *put* the keys of the dragData into dragKeys


Is this a bug or am I doing something silly?
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Arrays vs databases

[Matt Maier]

I already know how to use Livecode and I think I can do everything I need
using arrays.

According to this lesson, I can store an array as a custom property of a
stack which can be saved and loaded.
http://lessons.livecode.com/m/4071/l/17375-how-do-i-save-custom-properties-in-a-standalone-application

Something I've done myself already is to either save the array as JSON in a
text file or just as a binary with encode.

So, in the most naive sense, it looks like I can have a key-value store
without installing and learning anything new. But databases have extra
functionality to deal with stuff like multiple simultaneous users, data
integrity, and performance optimization.

Can I just setup an instance of Livecode to act like an in-memory,
key-value database? Maybe have a standalone stack act as the controller and
have it mirror it's state in a separate stack that can be saved and loaded.

I don't know enough about database design to frame the tradeoffs. Can
someone who groks both Livecode and databases comment on this idea?
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Re: SVG Widgets Work Well -- User Contributions - Screen Casts

[Matt Maier]

I found that GifCam is great for making little feature animations that are
easier to share and embed than videos.
On May 14, 2016 01:30, "Earthednet-wp"  wrote:

> Great idea! I'd like to see that happen.
> Bill
>
> William Prothero
> http://es.earthednet.org
>
> > On May 13, 2016, at 4:19 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <
> bra...@hindu.org> wrote:
> >
> > SVG widget, despite limitations at the moment, is awesome making icons.
> No more PNG's that go "all bust up" if you resize them…
> >
> >
> >
> > Go to iconfinder.com… download what you want as svg.
> >
> >
> >
> > Note that there are cases where the svg is in several paths. So if you
> open in Illustrator, select all and make compound path, save and *then* use
> that in the SVG widget… it works.. even unexpectedly where you may have
> e.g. 3 dots that you would think must be independent paths…
> >
> >
> >
> > My suggestion is that you might better expose that tip on making
> compound paths.
> >
> >
> >
> > Which then leads my question on user contributions channels. Let's say
> we discover something useful that we feel is really buried in terms of what
> newbies would need and might be frustrated trying to find.
> >
> >
> >
> > How does one best get that into the mix of documentatin/tutorials.
> Another useful channel I see is YouTube itself… lots of people posting
> things like "How to do this in Outlook"   3 minutes, max
> >
> >
> >
> > But it is fragmented.
> >
> >
> >
> > We do a lot of small tech screen casts internally and it would be
> trivioal for me or many others to start recording video and just do a "Up
> and Running with SVG Icon"   2 minutes, open stack, drag SVG icon out.
> Switch to browser, download SVG switch to illustrator, make compound path,
> open in Atom, copy and paste into Livecod… and verbalize the gotchas  like
> "if your path doesn't start with "m" then it wont' work… be sure to select
> between the quotes… you don't need all that code at the top. Etc."
> >
> >
> >
> > So if one did make such a screen cast. Where would it go
> >
> >
> >
> > We are not talking about issues/problems or work around, but just things
> that actually do work but which may be obscure.
> >
> >
> >
> > BR
> >
> >
> >
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

[Matt Maier]

In terms of what we should expect, does this push indicate a "breadth
first" rather than "depth first" strategy? As in, will Livecode's reach
continue to expand as quickly as possible while it's perfection is of
secondary concern? More specifically, will we be getting 80% functionality
in more places rather than 100% functionality in one place?

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Alex Tweedly  wrote:

> I agree it is a rather short time frame - but 3 months would be far too
> long.
>
> This project hopes to complete "this summer" - so my guess would be end of
> August or September - therefore only 4-1/2 months away; they can't wait 3
> months to see if the funding is available.
>
> -- Alex.
>
>
> On 13/05/2016 10:10, Roland Huettmann wrote:
>
>> I pledged, but the dates given are by far too short - May 23 is just
>> around
>> the corner. I could pledge more given more time, but currently away on a
>> trip. I think 3 months pledge time should be normal.
>>
>> Roland
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Re: Infinite LiveCode - Message from CEO

[Matt Maier]

I just pledged. Both sides of the conversation make sense, and obviously I
ended up on the "pledge" side of it. Getting the widgets and LCB working to
"wrap" several more popular languages will dramatically increase the
utility of everything we already know how to do in Livecode. That's the
main value proposition for me. I only have to learn one (one and a half
now?) language and I can make things happen on all the major operating
systems, the server, soon in browsers. Being able to grab existing code
from, and collaborate with, everyone who doesn't know Livecode will be
fantastic.

Also, I'm approaching the pledge from the perspective of starting my own
company. The way Livecode is going about it is more or less the same way
I'd prefer to go about it. I'd prefer to have a direct relationship where I
solve someone's problem and they pay me for it, willingly, because I'm
actually solving their problem. I also would prefer to tackle big, hairy,
audacious goals. I also expect that I'll be better at working in the
laboratory than doing marketing. Basically, all the stuff Livecode is
doing. They're tackling a big problem, which is addressing a major pain
point for me, so I'm happy to support them.

Big projects always end up taking longer and costing more than hoped. I
don't want them to run out of money before they finish grinding through it.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Dave Kilroy 
wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I agree with Sannyasin about positivity and this being a thread about
> supporting the development of LiveCode
>
> I also am 'all in' and have just pledged at
> https://livecode.com/project/infinite-livecode/
>
> My regards to all who have pledged or who intend to pledge, no matter how
> little or how much - and I'll see you on the sunny side of the street some
> day!
>
> Kind regards
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote
> > On 5/12/16, 2:03 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Ralph DiMola" 
>
> > use-livecode-bounces@.runrev
>
> >  on behalf of
>
> > rdimola@
>
> >  wrote:
> >
> >>The LC upside WAY outweighs the downside. I'm all in!
> >>At least that's how I feel.
> >
> > I want to apologize for hi-jacking Heather's thread. If I had complaints
> > about SFTP I should have written to Kevin directly. If it means we all
> are
> > now "piling on" to say how much we love this tool. I will also switch my
> > tone herewith and into the future.
> >
> > Certainly an open language.. if achieved will allow for a great many new
> > extensions at prices we can all afford. I am also "all in" with it comes
> > to Livecode and continue to be a strong advocate. My post did not reflect
> > that at all. I have dabbled with PHP, Javascript and really don't want to
> > bother going with another language.
> >
> > Please resume the intended discussion:
> >
> > Heather wrote:
> >
> > "Please go and read this blog post from Kevin, it contains important
> > information I'm sure will interest you!
> >
> > https://livecode.com/infinite-livecode-a-letter-from-our-ceo/
> >
> > All the best form Hawaii
> >
> > BR
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > use-livecode@.runrev
>
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
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>
>
>
>
> -
> "The first 90% of the task takes 90% of the time, and the last 10% takes
> the other 90% of the time."
> Peter M. Brigham
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Infinite-LiveCode-Message-from-CEO-tp4704550p4704596.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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model oriented programming

[Matt Maier]

So, Livecode is a scripting language. Whatever logic and data I string
together in LCS is converted by the engine into equivalent code in
languages like C. Does that make the LC engine a code generator? Seems like
it does.

These guys take it one level farther back and start with a model which
defines a code generator which then creates code.
http://download.imatix.com/mop/introduction.html

I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

They also use their code generator to generate their code generator.
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Re: local livecode server

[Matt Maier]

Neato! It's working now. I'm not entirely sure why. I started poking at
everything.

For posterity: some stuff that seemed like it must be important was...
- change back-slashes "\" to front-slashes "/" if copy file paths
- Apache2.4 replaced "order allow,deny" and "allow from all" with "require
all granted" or something like that. I've got both the old and new syntax
in here
- the instructions don't mention the need to rename the script alias that's
pointing at the actual executable from "livecode-server.exe" to
"livecode-community-server.exe" if that's the version you've got.
- I also stuck ".lc" onto the end of a few lists of other file extensions

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Matt Maier <bluebac...@gmail.com> wrote:

> According to this...
>
>
> https://github.com/h5bp/server-configs-apache/wiki/How-to-enable-Apache-modules
>
> ...as long as the modules aren't commented out in the httpd.conf file
> they're enabled. I can confirm that they are not commented out.
>
> Part of the problem might be that the instructions haven't been updated.
> They reference Apache 2.2 but easyPHP came with Apache 2.4 and there are
> some changes.
>
> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Richard Gaskin <ambassa...@fourthworld.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Matt Maier wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Are all three of this modules active in your Apache install?:
>> >>
>> >> mod_cgi
>> >> mod_actions
>> >> mod_alias
>> >
>> > I'm not sure. I found files with those names but they have a .so
>> > extension.
>> > When I open them in Atom half of the file looks like binary. I
>> > couldn't find an explanation in the Apache docs of how to "enable"
>> > them.
>>
>> I'm out of my league at this point.  I've only managed Apache on Linux,
>> and Ubuntu and other Debian distros include a convenient a2enmod command to
>> enable those.
>>
>> The best I can offer is to refer you to your Windows admin docs and
>> perhaps the docs at apache.org
>>
>>
>> --
>>  Richard Gaskin
>>  Fourth World Systems
>>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>>  
>>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>>
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Re: local livecode server

[Matt Maier]

According to this...

https://github.com/h5bp/server-configs-apache/wiki/How-to-enable-Apache-modules

...as long as the modules aren't commented out in the httpd.conf file
they're enabled. I can confirm that they are not commented out.

Part of the problem might be that the instructions haven't been updated.
They reference Apache 2.2 but easyPHP came with Apache 2.4 and there are
some changes.

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Richard Gaskin <ambassa...@fourthworld.com>
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >
> >> Are all three of this modules active in your Apache install?:
> >>
> >> mod_cgi
> >> mod_actions
> >> mod_alias
> >
> > I'm not sure. I found files with those names but they have a .so
> > extension.
> > When I open them in Atom half of the file looks like binary. I
> > couldn't find an explanation in the Apache docs of how to "enable"
> > them.
>
> I'm out of my league at this point.  I've only managed Apache on Linux,
> and Ubuntu and other Debian distros include a convenient a2enmod command to
> enable those.
>
> The best I can offer is to refer you to your Windows admin docs and
> perhaps the docs at apache.org
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: local livecode server

[Matt Maier]

I'm not sure. I found files with those names but they have a .so extension.
When I open them in Atom half of the file looks like binary. I couldn't
find an explanation in the Apache docs of how to "enable" them.

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Richard Gaskin <ambassa...@fourthworld.com>
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > I've followed along with this...
> >
> >
> http://lessons.livecode.com/spaces/lessons/buckets/809/lessons/36654-How-do-I-install-LiveCode-Server-on-Windows-with-Apache-
> >
> > ...and got as far as getting the example html to appear at
> > localhost/test.lc
> >
> > But the  isn't being rendered, it's just being
> > treated like html.
> >
> > I tried changing " > didn't change anything.
> >
> > I also tried changing the file from "test.lc" to "test.blerg" and got
> > exactly the same output at localhost/test.blerg so I'm not even sure
> > if the server is aware that it should be sending *.lc files to
> > livecode server.
> >
> > How do I troubleshoot why the server isn't rendering the livecode
> > script?
>
> Are all three of this modules active in your Apache install?:
>
> mod_cgi
> mod_actions
> mod_alias
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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local livecode server

[Matt Maier]

I've followed along with this...


http://lessons.livecode.com/spaces/lessons/buckets/809/lessons/36654-How-do-I-install-LiveCode-Server-on-Windows-with-Apache-

...and got as far as getting the example html to appear at localhost/test.lc
.

But the  isn't being rendered, it's just being
treated like html.

I tried changing "http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

I never suggested you write it. I objected to you advising the mailing list
not to include this discussion in the Dictionary because it would start
down a slippery slope towards "too big."

On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Kay C Lan wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> >>
> >> That's precisely why I advocate maintaining the Dictionary as
> >> an essential reference (as in "essence"); it should be easy
> >> to link to relevant tutorials and guides for more complete
> >> discussion when desired.
> >>
> > Could you give me an example of a Dictionary entry that has a link
> > to a Guide or Tutorial?
>
> So many things in my life would be much simpler if "advocate" meant the
> same as "have been given authority and resources to have done it".
>
> But unfortunately my world is not so simple. :)
>
> So in short, "not yet".
>
>
> > Would they just be included in the Reference Tag or as a basic html
> > link to Tutorials?
>
> Matt's request (in keeping with many others') is that we try to avoid
> requiring users to go to a generic Search or index to find things, that we
> "put the information where they need it", and I've wholeheartedly agreed.
>
> To support that I would advocate that such links would be included
> directly in the Markdown of relevant Dictionary entries.
>
> As for the alternative, in v8 I believe all tutorials and guides are
> already listed in the Help index, no?
>
>
> > Whilst I agree with you in principle, and that is certainly the
> > destination we need to be headed
>
> Glad to hear it.  Peter Brett and I have some similar ideas about how to
> take advantage of the new docs format, now that the team has completed the
> considerable task of converting everything to Markdown.  If you like that
> idea I'm sure you'll like many of Peter's even more.
>
>
> > at this point in time I've got to agree with Matt.
>
> As I have.  I've very explicitly and repeatedly encouraged people here to
> have exactly what they want by making it so:
>
>As I've noted here before, this blog post offers some helpful
>guidance for community members to get started contributing to
>the documentation to make it more of they want:
>
>
> The only place Matt and I disagree is the suggestion that I write it.
>
> My work with LC is as a volunteer, not an employee.  And since my own
> experience has me inclined to try to meet the need expressed in this thread
> through different means, I'm not able to guess what other people may find
> ideal for this.
>
> In short, I have neither the time nor talent to do what's been requested
> of me.
>
> But I have encouraged others to do so.  And I continue to believe that
> adding whatever notes to a Dictionary entry one feels will prevent a
> similar question from coming up in the future is best done by doing it, or
> at least submitting it as an enhancement request to the bug queue for
> someone else to do, as opposed to just writing it here in a mailing list
> where it's almost guaranteed to be forgotten.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

You keep citing the theoretically limitless number of contingencies that,
if addressed, could bloat the dictionary beyond readability. There's a
simple solution to that problem: don't go looking for theoretical problems.

Instead, just correct, massage, or add to the dictionary entry when someone
has a problem relevant to that entry.

I've also maintained gigantic technical references (fighter aircraft
weapons systems, satellite operations, and ground control systems) and we
followed that simple process. The TOs (technical orders) started out with
just the instructions from the factory. Over time they accumulated
corrections, warnings, cautions, and notes in response to actual events.
That way the extra information appeared right where it was needed and
nobody wasted time on any theoretically necessary information.

That's a big part of helping people learn on their own. Putting the
information they need right where they need it, rather than putting it
somewhere and challenging them to go find it.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Richard Gaskin <ambassa...@fourthworld.com>
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > I just want to chime in to disagree with the idea that we should leave
> > useful information out of the Dictionary.
>
> When you put it like that it sounds silly indeed.  Fortunately I wasn't
> advocating omitting useful information, just suggesting we may want to
> maintain an awareness for the scope of doc options at our disposal, and be
> mindful about which details go where.
>
> If you were advocating silliness we might put the User Guide, the Lessons,
> and every LiveCode blog into the Dictionary.  But I know you're not.
>
> We want useful information, where it's most useful.
>
>
> > There's no such thing as a document that's too big when we have
> > networks and search.
>
> That's precisely why I advocate maintaining the Dictionary as an essential
> reference (as in "essence"); it should be easy to link to relevant
> tutorials and guides for more complete discussion when desired.
>
>
> > If it takes a while to explain, then it takes a while to explain.
>
> One of the products I work in is a medial reference for pediatric
> emergency specialists.  Much of its info is in the Physician's Desk
> Reference and a large number of current research papers, but what
> distinguishes our product is that it has LESS information than other
> available sources.
>
> "What's that?  Less?"
>
> Yes.  The PDR is too big to read.  Every doctor has it; few open it. And
> the wealth of information at PubMed is too vast to sift through when you
> have an ER case load stacked up.
>
> So our team is comprised of ER specialists from around the world who
> gather the best information on modern practice available, and work
> diligently to distill it to its most valuable essence useful in a clinical
> setting.
>
> The LiveCode Dictionary need not be quite as sparse; no one's dying on an
> ER table waiting for us to find the parameters to "import snapshot" (and
> God help them if they were ).
>
> But there are different forms of docs because each serves a different
> purpose.
>
>
> > If there are a lot of caveats, then there are a lot of caveats.
> > That sounds like a good reason to simplify the application, not
> > a good reason to keep secrets.
>
> Simplifying the app is indeed the first goal.  Mark Waddingham has already
> slated behavior resolution for cleanup, so it will become simpler at some
> point in the future.
>
> But in the here and now, rest assured there's no conspiracy to keep
> anything secret.
>
> The question on the table is: what is most appropriate in the Dictionary,
> and what is most appropriate for another resource?
>
> The Dictionary is not a User Guide, nor a tutorial.  It's a reference for
> understanding what an API token expects, and what will be returned.
>
> There are many caveats throughout the Dictionary, and arguably there
> should be more.
>
> But I would caution against turning it into the most comprehensive
> collection of all possible things one might mistakenly do and how to avoid
> them.  Each page could be 1MB or more with just mistakes I've made alone. :)
>
> In this specific case, a key part of the original confusion resulted not
> from something missing from the "behavior" entry, but by not consulting the
> "start using" entry.  I've been teaching xTalks for decades, and that's one
> mismatch I'd not previously encountered.  In retrospect it's
> understandable, and I won't completely rule out the possibility that a note
> about "start using" not being relevant to "behavior" may be worth putting
> in.
>
> But so many things aren't rel

Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

I just want to chime in to disagree with the idea that we should leave
useful information out of the Dictionary.

There's no such thing as a document that's too big when we have networks
and search. Even if we're forced to browse and read we can just put the
information in order of importance so that the more trivial stuff is at the
end.

If it takes a while to explain, then it takes a while to explain. If there
are a lot of caveats, then there are a lot of caveats. That sounds like a
good reason to simplify the application, not a good reason to keep secrets.
What feels like a "hefty tome" to someone with decades of experience feels
like a "gold mine" to someone with no experience. A lot of gold is heavy;
that's just how it works.

On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Richard Gaskin 
wrote:

> Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami wrote:
>
> > I think the idea that you have to open an external behavior stack
> > *before* you open the main stack that has controls which point to
> > it as their parent, is totally unintuitive and when a newbie reads
> > "load, open, put into memory" etc... he/she will always assume this
> > can happen in the preopenstack handler.
>
> Perhaps.  Ideally we'd need to user-test that to affirm the assumption. It
> wouldn't have occurred to me, but I've spent too long using xTalks to be a
> reliable gauge of what it takes to learn them (which is why the older I get
> the more ardent I've become about listening carefully to people who know
> nothing about the software; that precious naivety leaves so quickly, and is
> invaluable during that brief moment it still exists).
>
> The one thing everyone agrees on is that the current need to be so aware
> of load order for behavior resolution is undesirable and needs to be
> changed at first opportunity.  Mark Waddingham doesn't much care for it any
> more than you or I do.  I'd be surprised if it isn't resolved (all puns
> intended) by 8.2 if not sooner.
>
> Fortunately we have the convenient stackFiles property to make this a bit
> simpler in the meantime.
>
>
> > "Load "MyBehaviorStack" into memory without opening it. "
> >
> > It is or is not open after you query the property? do you really mean:
> >
> > "You can query a property to open the stack in the background and put
> > its stack script into memory."
>
> Whether a stack is "open" if loaded into memory without using an "open" or
> "go" command is perhaps a philosophical question.
>
> Personally I try to use "open" to describe a stack's runtime state only in
> cases where I brought it into RAM with "open" or "go", and the rare case of
> anything else as simply "in memory".
>
>
> > a) b) (with explanation above)  c) below + Jacque's explanation could
> > go in the dictionary... I don't think that's over loading it. had
> > that been what I read at Git Hub, we could have avoided several days
> > for lost time.
>
> Go for it, but please be brief in Dictionary entries.   This thread is as
> long as it is in part because of a misunderstanding of what "start using"
> does, which may merit mention there but on the other hand if we included
> caveats in every Dictionary entry to cover mistakes I've made trying to
> misapply commands it would be a tome too hefty to read. :)
>
> Rather than enumerate all possible ways do not do something, just focus on
> what you want them to do.
>
>
> > OTOH, we did get the gold out of it:  your nested behaviors/as-
> >classes tutorial...
> >
> > So it was all worth it!
>
> Glad that was helpful.   Nested behaviors are da bombdiggety!
>
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

I just tried reproducing your actions and now I'm confused. All I did was
make a new stack, drag a field onto it, then put:

on mouseUp
put "hello" & cr after me
end mouseUp

When I left-click, nothing happens, even though I can double click to
select words and I can left-click-drag to highlight words.

When I right-click, the field's script runs and "hello" appears in the
field.

The field doesn't even get "mouseUp" (or mouseDown for that matter) when I
left-click, but it does when I right-click.

I'm using 8dp13. Is that supposed to happen?

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <
bra...@hindu.org> wrote:

> @ Richard:
>
> I looked at the bug 8993 . The problem is... what does "loaded" actually
> mean?
>
> After two days of research, study and testing and responses here...
>  I *still* could not  figure it out (until now thanks to your tip on stack
> files)
>
> Indeed a serious confusion/conundrum for a new comer.
>
> Create script-only.livecode stack
>
> script "script-only"
> on mouseup
>Put "Hello" into me
> end mouseup
>
> Save, open and apply as behavior to field. lock field, click on it..
> nothing happens. msg is not sent to the behavior script.
>
> put  this into preopenstack
>
> start using stack  "[path-to]/script-only.livecode"
>
> Now the madness begins: the stack accepts mousedown from *anywhere* on the
> UI and triggers an error, because "me" is not the field to which the
> behavior was applied.
>
>  changing the preopenstack handler to
>
> open stack  "[path-to]/script-only.livecode"
>
> does not "load" it as such.. it is open, You can see it if you were to set
> behaviors it is there in the dropdown menu under the inspector but the
> field that has it set as a behavior does not trigger the mouseup in the
> behavior stack script. Baffling for a newbie.
>
> IN the bug Mark Waddington writes: "I'm going to cease thinking of this as
> an enhancement request, and instead as a bug - the method used currently is
> too opaque."
>
> opaque is an understatement. Virtually Impenetrable may be better.
>
> Stack files Wow... that works!
>
> So why not just declared this asap  and very, very explicitly in the new
> documentation, ugly and as verbose as this appears, this is what we need:
>
> -
>
> "In order to use script only stacks  as behaviors in specific controls,
> these must be loaded as stack files so that they are placed into the
> message path along with the scripts of your main stack. In your main stack
> (or substacks that may use them)   Use the inspector, choose stack files
> and browse to choose your script on disk.
>
> Unlike button behaviors which are embedded in your stack, you must be sure
> to include these stacks later when you move, package or distribute your
> main stack. Also be aware that the main stack cannot track changes to the
> location of these stack files. If you move them on disk the reference to
> the stack will fail and you will need to update the stack files and point
> to the stack in it's new locations.
>
> Also note that it if you use "open" to open your script only stack file...
> it is still not in the message path and your behaviors will fail,
> furthermore, if you put "start using stack" (in an open stack,
> preopenstack  handler) to load your script only stack, it will receive all
> messages from the stack and not just from the child control to which it is
> assigned. e.g. if your intent is for the child control(s) to respond to "on
> mouseup"  this will not work if you do "start using" for your script-only
> stack."
>
> ---
>
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Re: Script Only Stack Architecture

[Matt Maier]

Monte got annoyed that I did something like that instead of setting
behaviors. So it might be better to write behaviors in script-only stacks
and then set them onto the various controls, rather than managing the
controls all the way from the library stack(s).
On Mar 28, 2016 18:54, "Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami" 
wrote:

> Yay! my GUI designs are in from the eye candy team so we can start cooking.
>
> I'm looking closely at script only stacks.
>
> Mark's blog was simple enough "They are just text files."
>
> I've installed Atom here.
>
>  Can you check/amend my assumptions here? Of course I can test this
> myself, but if others are already doing this kind of architecture you may
> have caveats to share?
>
> Atom:
> -  Create a project pointing to a folder  with your current app assets
> - place this under GIT control
>
> -- A "main" stack with a preopenstack handler like this
>
> on preopenstack
>  start using "animationEngine" # assume binary substack imported
>  Start using # any other binary helper stacks
>  start using "myAppCoreFunctions.livecodescript" # script only stack
>  start using "mAppPuzzleGames.livecodescript" # script only stack
> # etc.
> end preopenstack
>
> -- with almost no code in the stack stack script at all.
> -- in the project browser we will see the script only stacks
> -- we can edit the script only stacks in the script editor set break
> points use the "console"  (put to msg box)
> -- when we hit "apply" in the script editor the scripts are saved back out
> to the text files
> -- OR the modified scripts of the script only stacks are in RAM until you
> save the main stack?
> -- Buttons and top level messages go through and hit the
> functions/commands loaded in the script
>
> In Atom or from command line, you then make your commits to the repository.
>
> Seems simple enough...Anything I am missing? additions or amendments.
>
> Meanwhile I'm going to "go for it" and see how it goes.
>
>
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revIgniter installation

[Matt Maier]

Can someone help clarify the revIgniter installation instructions?

I'm trying to get started with learning how to work with this tool but it's
assuming more experience than I have.

I want to confirm that I got my own computer and my server setup correctly
for working with FileZilla and revIgniter. The original instructions are
copied below for reference.

1) download revIgniter.zip
2) extract revIgniter.zip
3) open folder revIgniter1.8.1
4) select everything and send it to a new *.zip file
5) rename that new *.zip file something meaningful
6) fire up cPanel for website
7) navigate to public_html/website.com
8) upload somethingMeaningful.zip
9) extract somethingMeaningful.zip
-- now you've got public_html/website.com/index.lc (instead of public_html/
website.com/revIgniter1.8.1/index.lc)
10) go back to your computer
11) create a folder called website.com
12) extract somethingMeaningful.zip into website.com
13) get FileZilla all credentialed up and tell it to synchronize browsing
between website.com on your computer and on the server
14) the base URL in revIgniter's application/config/config.lc will be
www.website.com

A lot of this is because cPanel will only upload multiple files and/or
folders if they're zipped together and FileZilla will only upload
individual items; it won't sync entire repositories.

So, at the end of this, what I've got is the contents of revIgniter1.8.1 is
now the contents of website.com on my computer and server. Now when I edit
or add to revIgniter's templates on my computer I can upload the changes to
the right places on the server using FileZilla. Did I do that correctly?

Installation Instructions

revIgniter is installed in four steps:

   1. Unzip the package.
   2. Upload the revIgniter folders and files to your server. Normally the
   index.lc file will be at your root.
   3. Open the application/config/config.lc file with a text editor and set
   your base URL. If you intend to use encryption or sessions, set your
   encryption key.
   4. If you intend to use a database, open the application/config/
   database.lc file with a text editor and set your database settings.

If you wish to hide the location of your revIgniter files you can rename
the system folder to something more private. If you do rename it, you must
open your main index.lc file and set the gSystemFolder variable at the top
of the page with the new name you've chosen.

To increase security even further you can move your system and application
folder above web root. Before doing so please read the section Managing
Your Application
.

That's it!

If you're new to revIgniter, please read the Getting Started
 section of
the User Guide to begin learning how to build dynamic irev applications.
Enjoy!
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Re: livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Thanks. Yeah, I think I can imagine what the script would be for that mad
libs example.

Richard's subtle cajoling reminded me of all the stuff I could just
implement in the desktop client I already have instead of starting from
scratch with web scripting.
On Mar 9, 2016 10:28 AM, "J. Landman Gay"  wrote:

> On 3/9/2016 12:22 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2016 6:25 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:
>>
>>> There are a few examples in the community where the author has the
>>> output and source available from the same page.  Jacque, didn't you have
>>> a couple of those?
>>>
>>
>> I have a (dated) example here:
>> 
>>
>> It still uses the "rev" designation but would work fine with "lc"
>> instead. It does refer to a CGI though; the server script is partly LC
>> server stuff and partly refers to a custom LC CGI in the cgi-bin
>> directory.
>>
>> There's another one here:
>> 
>>
>> That one doesn't show the actual server script, but I could post it if
>> it would help. It isn't very complicated.
>>
>>
> Oh, here's another one:
> 
>
> Same deal, the scripts don't show but are available if you want them. Easy
> stuff.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
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Re: livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Rght...except that I can't use "view page source" to see any
Livecode because what's delivered to the browser is either html, css, or
javascript, correct? So the Livecode "source" is replaced by its own
output, which maintains the mystery.

There are several small tutorials scattered around, but where can I see
actual websites that run on Livecode? Even the on-rev.com examples don't
actually provide the *.lc files. All I can see there are the isolated
Livecode scripts and the static page delivered to the browser in html.

When you say "use Livecode for the client" do you mean a desktop standalone
or the new HTML5 standalone?

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Richard Gaskin <ambassa...@fourthworld.com>
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
> > Oh. So, when you use Livecode to put "Hello world" into the browser,
> > is it actually sending the browser something like Hello world
> > from the server?
>
> Yep.  That's the secret charm of web development:  HTML defines what's in
> a page, CSS defines how it looks, JavaScript defines how you can interact
> with it - and all three are just plain text.
>
> "View Page Source" is the greatest feature ever, and every browser has
> it.  With that and a little time, even the coolest web sites become
> demystified.
>
> With a text processing toolkit like LiveCode's chunk expressions, coupled
> with everything else it does from image manipulation to socket handling and
> more, the range of ways LiveCode can contribute to web development is
> limited only by the imagination.
>
> You can generate pages locally and upload 'em securely and efficiently
> with rsync, or use a server-side CGI to accept input from the user to fill
> in custom templates with merge, or create custom images from user input, or
> access databases, or mashup content from multiple web sources, or index
> chunks of the Internet, or build intranet resources for your organization,
> or admin all your servers from one place, or make a dashboard for your
> boss, or monitor forum activity, or write a blog, or sync content between
> your phone and laptop, or
>
> And if you use LiveCode for the client also, you can multiply the number
> of things you can do over HTTP by at least two, and get them done in a
> fraction of the time. :)
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
>
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Re: livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Oh. So, when you use Livecode to put "Hello world" into the browser, is it
actually sending the browser something like Hello world from the
server?
On Mar 7, 2016 19:57, "Richard Gaskin" <ambassa...@fourthworld.com> wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
>> Has anybody actually built a website using Livecode, as in these examples?
>> http://samples.on-rev.com/index.irev
>>
>> I checked the code in all of these sites and, unless I'm missing
>> something,
>> everyone who knows Livecode is using javascript (or is just using
>> templates?).
>>
>
> JavaScript is the only language embedded in browsers, so it's no like
> anyone has a choice there.
>
> But JavaScript is also plain text, and LiveCode is very adept at
> manipulating text.  Many of us deliver that along with HTML and CSS from
> LiveCode running on the backend.
>
> Not for everything; static content needn't be slowed down by putting it
> into a dynamic content delivery system.  But most of us have at least some
> dynamic content and/or services made with LiveCode on our servers, and some
> of us even use LiveCode for part of our static content management.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Has anybody actually built a website using Livecode, as in these examples?
http://samples.on-rev.com/index.irev

I checked the code in all of these sites and, unless I'm missing something,
everyone who knows Livecode is using javascript (or is just using
templates?).
https://livecode.com/
http://activethought.net/
http://mergext.com/
http://www.fourthworld.com/index.html
http://livecodegamedeveloper.com/
http://livecodesupersite.com/
http://www.bluemangolearning.com/livecode/
http://on-rev.com/server-status/home/
https://www.fmpromigrator.com/services/php_to_livecode_service.html
http://www.gatewestcoin.com/

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Phil Davis <rev...@pdslabs.net> wrote:

> Templates, no. Framework, yes:
>
> http://revigniter.com/
>
> Phil Davis
>
>
>
>
> On 3/6/16 10:11 PM, Matt Maier wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know of any website templates that use Livecode? I want to set
>> up a basic file hosting/sharing thing with logins. I've got space in what
>> used to be the on-rev servers and it would be nice to continue using
>> livecode on the web like I use it on the desktop.
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>>
> --
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>
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livecode website templates

[Matt Maier]

Does anyone know of any website templates that use Livecode? I want to set
up a basic file hosting/sharing thing with logins. I've got space in what
used to be the on-rev servers and it would be nice to continue using
livecode on the web like I use it on the desktop.
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Re: Use MouseLine() and still edit the same field?

[Matt Maier]

Be careful using mouseMove. It gets sent along with messages like mouseDown
regardless of whether or not the mouse is moving. So make sure the logic in
it is idempotent (produces the same result when called multiple times).

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Terry Judd 
wrote:

> Hi Mark - you probably want to use a mouseMove handler rather than
> mouseWithin. Try starting off with something simple like this...
>
> on mouseMove
> put word 2 of the mouseLine into n
> set the textColor of line 1 to -1 of me to empty
> set the textColor of line n of me to blue
> end mouseMove
>
> HTH,
>
> Terry...
>
>
>
> On 5/03/2016 7:08 am, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Mitchell"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >(Sorry Heather!  I¹m sending this message again from the Œproper¹
> >account..)
> >
> >I¹m not sure how long it has been around, but I have just discovered the
> >Œmousewhithin¹ message combined with the mouseline() functionŠ Awesome!
> >So, for those of you who don¹t know, the Œmousewithin¹ message is sent to
> >a field periodically (5 times a second?) whenever the mouse is inside
> >that field.
> >
> >Then, the mouseline function returns whatever line of that field the
> >mouse is currently hovering over.  I am currently using this to warn
> >folks if they have too many characters per line.  And that works fine.
> >
> >But to make it more intuitive, I want to somehow hilite or indicate the
> >line that the mouse is over in the field, without disturbing the ability
> >to edit that field (copy, paste, type stuff) with ease.
> >
> >I have tried a few different ways of hiliting the line of the field
> >(selecting it, changing the color of the text of it, etc) but any sort of
> >repeat or recursive structure does not work, as the ³mousewithin² message
> >is simply sent far too often for any Œrepeat¹ or recursion to work.
> >
> >Does anyone have any other ideas for highlighting a line in a field that
> >might work under these conditions?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Markk
> >
> >
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> << I believe any media or other content (whether separate files or not)
> distributed with the application and/or required to make it function fully
> would need to be licensed in a GPL compatible license.>>
>
> Hi Monte, I believe (!)  that this belief is kind of a key issue in
> attempting to identify the scope of GPL for livecode stacks and their
> content.
>
> I invite all of you (all) to , put on the legal hat for a while and walk
> into the following story :
>
> GPL is a very special kind of automatic contract that is attached to a
> piece
> of work and which describes what the receiver of that piece of work can or
> not do with it.
>
> As such it is a very special contract in the world of contracts because it
> does not require the agreement of the receiver, which is "implied" by the
> act of receiving. So it is not the strongest type of contract.
>

To add to the discussion, for what it's worth, there are good reasons that
proponents of copyleft (like the FSF who wrote the GPL) insist that it's
enforced by copyright law, not contract law. While legal systems do differ
in that some don't distinguish between licenses and contracts, the
distinction is important for copyleft.

In general, a contract has to be bargained, and consideration exchanged,
before it exists, and it only exists between the two parties. Then, if a
contract if violated, you generally can only sue to be made whole, so you
have to be able to show damages. Copyright, on the other hand, exists
instantly and forever, is implicitly accepted by everyone no matter how far
removed from the licensor they end up, and if it's violated you can have
the court take action without showing damages. Additionally, copyright law
is much more homogeneous globally.

So, for FOSS, copyright is a far more attractive legal structure. In the US
court cases where copyleft was upheld judges even cited in their written
opinion that FOSS would be effectively impossible under contract law.
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Re: [Blog] Script Only Stacks

[Matt Maier]

I was just reading that the line endings can be different (because of
course they can).
http://www.hyperactivesw.com/cgitutorial/scripts1.html#trouble

*Make sure line endings in scripts are correct for the server platform. DOS
line endings are carriage return and linefeed. Unix line endings are a
single linefeed. Macintosh line endings are a single carriage return (but
note that scripts run by Apache in OS X require Unix line endings.)*
On Mar 3, 2016 10:39 AM, "Richard Gaskin" 
wrote:

> Tim Bleiler wrote:
>
>> Thanks Peter,
>>
>> I gave that a try and I still get the same message. My attempts to create
>> them from scratch were saved as UTF-8 and I’ve tried all the other options
>> in TextEdit as well.  I have noticed  that if I open a functioning script
>> only stack in ATOM it is identified as UTF-8.
>>
>
> I wonder if it needs to use LC's native line ending, ASCII 10, rather than
> ASCII 13 that many Mac tools use.
>
> --
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Systems
>  Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>  
>  ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Hey-Ho and Off We Go with HTML5

[Matt Maier]

You could try out the free tier of services like http://www.formmail.com/
or HTTP://www.SE dgrid.com
On Mar 2, 2016 00:30, "RM"  wrote:

>
>
> On 2.03.2016 10:18, Mark Waddingham wrote:
>
>> On 2016-03-02 09:01, RM wrote:
>>
>>> Preferably this would be WITHOUT the message having to go via the
>>> client's e-mail system as:
>>>
>>> 1.  The message should be anonymous.
>>>
>>> 2.  The end-user may have no e-mail client configured.
>>>
>>
>> Okay so there in terms of what you will be able to do in this regard with
>> the HTML5 engine there are two feasible options as far as I can see:
>>
>> 1) "launch url" with a 'mailto:' URL. This would invoke the locally
>> configured email client (and is what revMail does). This won't (I believe)
>> work in the HTML5 engine yet because we haven't hooked it up (to my
>> knowledge at least). I *think* this would be possible - Peter could perhaps
>> comment. (It would ask the hosting web-browser to launch the url).
>>
>> 2) Put a web-service on a server and get that to send the email. This
>> requires no client-side email configuration but does require configuring a
>> web-service to do it. Indeed, there might be third party services out there
>> which could be used. Again, Peter would have to comment on the feasibility
>> of whether this would work in the HTML5 engine at the moment since I cannot
>> recall off the top of my head which (if any) URL primitives we have yet
>> implemented.
>>
>> Warmest Regards,
>>
>> Mark.
>>
>>
> Thank you very much for a reply that is a statement of the /status quo/ as
> regards e-mailing from Livecode at the moment. This is extremely helpful as
> it gives me an idea of what I /can/ and /cannot/
> do at the moment in this regard.
>
> What I would like to do, ideally, is set up a chart of some sort with text
> entry fields for students to fill in
> online, then click a 'submit' button that will send the field entries as a
> list to an e-mail address.
>
> As the current revMail capabilities are not /currently/ implemented in the
> HTML5 engine that will have
> to wait.
>
> Am I right in understanding that, theoretically a least, the goal is to
> implement all the capabilities
> of Livecode into the HTML5 engine?
>
> Richmond.
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

Unless Livecode modified the GPL it's still a Free software license,
written and interpreted by the FSF. Calling it Open Source is more
colloquial, and clearly doesn't cause problems in the vast majority of
cases. But, in this case, the inaccuracy is causing the confusion.

It's worth noting that most of the repositories in Github don't have any
license at all. That's not colloquial, that's just lazy, but that also
doesn't cause a problem in the vast majority of cases. Still, when there is
a problem the only way to resolve it is to be more specific.

I feel like it's important for people working through the nuances of FOSS
to understand the intent behind the different licenses. It can be
disorienting to think that everybody is just sharing stuff and then to run
into the seemingly harsh restrictions of the Free software subset. Open
Source is pretty inviting. Free places stick limits on who is invited. It's
confusing to people who haven't studied it because "open source" literally
means open up the source from which the object was derived. However,
"free/libre" doesn't mean make it as free as possible, it means make it
impossible for anyone to ever make it un-free. So the "free/libre" label
actually brings along MORE restrictions.

Livecode picked a Free software license for the Community edition,
signaling that they want their community to adhere to the intent of Free
software. Part of the reason (not the whole reason, but part of it) I
upgraded to Indy was so that I could cast off the restrictions imposed by
the intent of Free software.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Richard Gaskin <ambassa...@fourthworld.com>
wrote:

> Matt Maier wrote:
>
> > Robert, as you conduct your research you should also learn about the
> > difference between Free Software and Open Source Software. In brief,
> > Free Software does special things for moral reasons; it is "right"
> > that software be liberated. Open Source Software does special things
> > for pragmatic reasons; it is "useful" that software be easy to use
> > without asking permission.
>
> While that accurately reflects the motivations of Richard Stallman and
> others who create and promote "Free software" as they've described in their
> own writings, motivations are separate from outcomes.   Whether I buy
> flowers for my wife because I think she's pretty or because I'm trying to
> apologize, either way the florist makes $60. :)
>
> It's fully possible for others to enjoy the same outcomes without the same
> philosophical motivation.
>
> All carp are fish, but not all fish are carp, and not all who choose the
> GPL are quite as religious about it as others, or see it as any sort of
> moral imperative at all.
>
> For myself, and many I know, the GPL is a purely practical means to an
> end:  a good choice when one wants to share code both directly and also
> downstream.
>
> I participate in many software projects, and some of the choose GPL.  As
> much as I admire Mr. Stallman personally and professionally I disagree with
> his view of a moral imperative in choosing GPL.  But that disagreement
> doesn't prevent me from choosing it myself, or having enjoyed his company
> over dinner.  Vive le difference.
>
> Like the classical Chinese painting "Three Men at Tiger Brook", we can
> travel together even if we're adhere to different philosophies.
>
>
>
> > The GNU General Public License (GPL) is not an Open Source license,
> > it is a Free license. For reference, here is the Free Software
> > Foundation's stance on Open Source
> > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
> > "...a license designed specifically to protect freedom for all users
> > of a program."
> ...
> > It doesn't help that Livecode always uses the term "Open Source" when
> > referring to the Community Edition. This could easily (and does) lead
> > people to assume the Community Edition has an Open Source license. It
> > doesn't, so if you're looking for pragmatic terms, rather than
> > idealistic terms, you're going to be confused.
>
> With all due respect to both yourself and Mr. Stallman, what you wrote
> there is correct in terms of his very specific language preferences but not
> necessarily reflective of common usage.
>
> We have a bug in the English language:  we have only "free", but Latin has
> "gratis" distinct from "libre".
>
> So when we refer to "free software", we often have to add
> "free-as-in-freedom" or "free-as-in-beer" to distinguish what we mean.
>
> It's quite true that Mr. Stallman has said many times that he feels Eric
> Raymond's efforts to promote "open source&q

Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:47 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> indeed.. I do have an android phone!!
>
> And I read the GNU license for good,
> and the FAQ's for good,
> and some discussions
>
> 1) my personal conclusion reading these is that the assumption you make
> about stack files falling under GPL is.. questionable, but.. arguable,
> particularly if there are elements of interfaces buttons so on that would
> link to the engine. And the more intricated these become e.g. with widgets,
> the more linked this will be.
>
> But, if the stack file contains only code, I doubt that can fall onto GPL.
> The language itself is not copyrightable so a piece of code really is an
> "output" of an editor program and as such is not covered by GPL so long I
> can read!
>

If you sit down at a text editor and write a string of characters that the
Livecode engine happens to understand then you can put whatever copyright
license terms you want on it. So, I supposed in theory (disclaimer: IANAL)
if you wrote absolutely everything in plain script, and never included the
engine, you would still be able to apply your own license terms. But that
script can't be interpreted by anything other than the Livecode engine, so
you wouldn't be able to use it for anything. The value is in the engine,
which someone else wrote and allowed you to use as long as you follow their
rules. Since the rules they chose are the GPL, it's safe to assume there
isn't a legally sound way around it. The best you could hope for is a murky
grey area.


>
> Arguably, code dispersed in interface objects "sections" can also be
> regarded as a kind of organization of code and thus treated as output of
> the
> editor's program and thus not covered by the GPL.
>
> 2) are you saying do I rightly understand? that in order to be published by
> apple a program has to be written FROM scratch up in a commercial
> version???
> So that one cannot start up to write code in OS version and later switch to
> commercial  Are there any.. markers in the code?
>
>
The number of question marks indicates that you're working your way through
the mourning process.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model#Stages
There are whole cadres of lawyers who live in fear of the day they walk
into work and their boss calls them into a meeting because a random coder
accidentally included a piece of GPL software somewhere in the company's
proprietary product. GPL is not practical, it is idealistic. The authors
consider it a social movement. So it's not so much Apple's policy, it's
that the GPL is incompatible with anything vaguely proprietary, and of
course Apple is crazy proprietary.


> In practice I really wonder if Apple would trace back the origin of the
> origin of a code and make sure it was not "written" with GPL covered
> program. if it did, I wonder what they say about all those lines written in
> EMACS.
>
> To me that argument is kind of "tiré par le cheveux" as we say in french.
> (something like.. stretched out?).
>
> I love my android phone...
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Open-source-closed-source-and-the-value-of-code-tp4701649p4701790.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

Robert, as you conduct your research you should also learn about the
difference between Free Software and Open Source Software. In brief, Free
Software does special things for moral reasons; it is "right" that software
be liberated. Open Source Software does special things for pragmatic
reasons; it is "useful" that software be easy to use without asking
permission.

In both cases, you leverage copyright law. You cannot get away from
"restrictions" and still do Free or Open Source Software. The licenses are
used to restrict licensees from closing off the source of the software (to
a greater or lesser extent).

The GNU General Public License (GPL) is not an Open Source license, it is a
Free license. For reference, here is the Free Software Foundation's stance
on Open Source
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html
"...a license designed specifically to protect freedom for all users of a
program."

The GNU has a lot of restrictions because it's specifically designed to
prevent anyone who uses Free software from acting in a way contradictory to
the ideals of the Free software movement. If you want the software, then
you have to follow the terms of the license. If you don't follow all of the
terms, you lose your license and open yourself to litigation. This threat
has teeth because Free software licenses have been upheld in court. The
restrictions are the point.

It doesn't help that Livecode always uses the term "Open Source" when
referring to the Community Edition. This could easily (and does) lead
people to assume the Community Edition has an Open Source license. It
doesn't, so if you're looking for pragmatic terms, rather than idealistic
terms, you're going to be confused.

With respect to your Question 2, the Indy license doesn't have to
specifically forbid a service where someone with a freer license compiles
code on your behalf. You can't build an actual Livecode application without
using the IDE, so if you used the Community IDE your application must
adhere to the GPL. The whole point of the GPL is to prevent "free" software
from being changed into "proprietary" software.

As for Apple, they don't want hobby developers releasing apps into their
system. Apple has zero interest in letting anyone play or experiment in
their closed ecosystem. Android is the Wild West you're looking for.
Or...maybe Windows phone? They might be desperate or ambivalent enough.

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> The price rise in the commercial license has led me to try understand the
> Opens SOurce License, although I had always in my mind to keep with a
> commercial license ideally.
>
> And that leads to big surprises. I'll be doing a little bit of homework on
> that.
>
> *Question 1 :: is there somewhere a kind of WIKI place for live code whereI
> could start up open a license subject/page to be amended in a more
> structured and constructive way than that list???*
>
> Question 2 :: In that spirit, Peter TB Brett, it would be a contribution if
> could you throw in the source/ref of the terms & conditions of the indy
> license that forbids to provide the service described by J L. just above
> consisting in accompanying an author in the realm of iOs app publishing.
>
> Behing the great idea of a Open SOurce, it is surpassing to find so much
> barriers being built around it.
> And that does not seem totally realistic and respectful either.
>
> I find it hard and really surprising that such a service is not provided by
> somebody because I would find it really useful. Thinking about it, I
> actually have one project I worked upon that would greatly benefit from
> such
> a service as I just do not have time to dig and try out myself the iOs
> publishing. Frankly it just is not a thing you just do once as a hobbits to
> my view.
>
> On the indy side, i find it very intriguing that you can invest into a tool
> and be so tightly regulated as to what you can or not do.
>
> So far to go into the iOs model, you need :
> -- to do it yourself (if calling help from an indy is banned!)
> -- invest in the tool 1000 bucks, plus..
> -- invest time in trying out things with a stange spread out documentation
> here and there.
> -- deal with mister apple and the niceties & subtleties one regularly see
> in
> the forum..
>
> Mumm.. sounds great!!
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Open-source-closed-source-and-the-value-of-code-tp4701649p4701775.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Open source, closed source, and the value of code

[Matt Maier]

[disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice]

I sympathize with your confusion. There is inherent confusion around the
differences between "sharing" and "free/open source." In the former case,
it's just something people do. In the latter case, it is a legal standard.

Livecode Community uses the GPL http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html
This is important primarily because your standalones include the Livecode
engine. Livecode owns the copyright on the engine because their programmers
wrote it and assigned their copyright to the corporation. Leaving it at
that means that nobody else has any right to anything with regards to the
Livecode engine. In order to facilitate things like community, and
learning, and customer development, Livecode is giving you (us) a license
to use the engine provided certain conditions are followed. In this case,
the GPL is a viral license in that you are only given a license to use the
code if the binary you produce with it also uses the GPL (or compatible)
license. Those are the terms under which Livecode is comfortable allowing
you to use their intellectual property.

It's worth mentioning that the language itself doesn't work the same way.
If you open up a text editor, and write down words which the Livecode
engine might happen to understand, then you still own the full copyright on
those words. You can do anything you want with them. So the copyright on
the source of a script-only stack belongs to you. If you compile it into
the standalone then it must be licensed GPL.

That means there's a gray area around something like distributing a
Livecode-compiled binary under the GPL (source must be provided) and also
providing one or more encrypted scripts which that application can decrypt
and access if it needs to. As I understand it, the GPL blocks distribution
of a GPL-licensed executable that *requires* closed-source libraries to
run, but does allow the copyright holder to write in a specific exception
if they want to. The gray area refers to an optional library that *enhances*
(like a plug-in) the GPL-licensed application. I think that is merely
discouraged, but not actually blocked.

So it might be worth asking Livecode if they'd be willing to add an
exception to their GPL license allowing "hobbyists" to distribute a
closed-source library that is not compiled into the GPL-licensed
standalone. That would allow "hobbyists" to keep some of their code secret.
Maybe Livecode could even charge a different amount for that license.

[Disclaimer: Again, I'm not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.]

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Robert Mann  wrote:

> hi folks, what is this fuss about?
>
> First : no. The allegation about hypercard forcing the open source path on
> all usage is not true. There was a command to protect a stack ("protect" of
> course!) . And some interesting pieces of software were sold as protected
> stacks.
>
> And it is precisely that positioning which is about to be abandoned by
> livecode and why i think it's going backwards (with LESS) rather than going
> forward (with MORE).
>
> What the fuss is NOT :
> 1) I never questioned the Open Source version of Livecode. it's fantastic
> and needed.
> 2) I never questioned the Commercial version. Again it's great and helps
> going forward.
>
> What I questionned is that we're going to be missing an intermediate
> tool/license that would allow somebody to close SOME of his work at a
> reasonable cost for a hobbyist. Just as was originally designed in
> Hypercard.
>
> Now most reactions are : if it is to play around just don't bother and
> distribute as open sourced. Ok guys.
> But things are not just that "idealistically" simple. Sometimes you just do
> not know yet. And wish to try out something. Because some people just do
> not
> know everything in advance.
>
> And on a deeper level, please, do pay attention that it is our whole
> copyright system which is being thus challenged.
> -- would you find it "ok" that everything you write with your open sourced
> word processor be absolutely open sourced? Whatever you write? even if it
> is
> your next brilliant patent?
> -- same question for the various open sourced "tools" that allow to edit
> pictures, drawings, videos and so on.
>
> The fuss about is that in the present state of the license applicable to
> open sourced livecode,
> whatever you "write" with live code, if "given" "shared" to anybody else,
> then becomes open sourced.
> THe frontier between the tool itself (its modules etc) and the "day to day"
> work you can produce with it have been blurred. Fine if that is what was
> really wanted!  But did we really all mean that???
>
> Actually it would be interesting to precise what rights get open sourced in
> a stack :
> -- do all the media incorporated in a stack become open sourced when
> shared?
> -- what about the copyright on the layout of the application ?
> -- what about the writing of the documentation included?
> -- what 

Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Matt Maier]

For what it's worth, I got the Indy license so that I could release
github.Howstr.com under whatever license I wanted. In this case that's the
MIT license. So for me it's not even about keeping it secret, it's about
sharing with fewer restrictions than the GPL allows.

Of course, I am turning Howstr into a business, but I committed to Indy
long before I committed to going into business. Being able to pick my
license was important to me as a hobbyist.
On Feb 29, 2016 05:57, "Roland Huettmann" 
wrote:

> Well, Mark, I like the word "creative" )
>
> Hobbyists, students etc not able or willing to pay the full fees and still
> wishing to have some reflection of protecting code could form an
> association which would receive full rights from LiveCode to protect code
> in the name of the association, and all members of the association would
> have an internal agreement about protection. There could be an agreement
> that if such rights are claimed by a member then he could obtain them for a
> fee and change status, or leave the association and go for Indy or Business
> license.
>
> If such association would pay 10,000 dollars a month to LiveCode, it would
> need 500 hobbyists and students paying 20 dollars a month to raise such
> money not counting big overhead costs and not making any profit which an
> association does not have to make.
>
> ---
>
> I am working in Africa a lot, mainly Togo, Ghana etc.. There is hardly any
> student able to survive a month, and his or her ability to pay would be
> zero. But it would be an excellent ground for LiveCode for really reach big
> masses of students and developers if we would promote it. A community
> version is essential, but also protected versions are of need. Where to get
> the funding? Aid programs?
>
> In any case, we are glad that we have a community version !
>
> ---
>
> To put myself into the shoes of hobbyists/students in need of some kind of
> code protection: I personally would feel kind of pushed to order now at
> least an Indy license to not loose the opportunity to keep a low pricing
> schema later. It is only this one point which would make me a bit sour.
> Even if it is meant in a nice way, it is a kind of unpleasant feeling that
> now I must decide about something that I - hobbyist - may only need in
> future, or never will need at all, but should decide to pay right away to
> not loose the benefit of lower recurring payments. And then even today such
> Indy license is double the price that I would usually be willing to pay
> just to keep going without expectation of much reward. Just the price
> target - and the future price especially - would make me think a lot. Since
> it may become not affordable for a lot of people in near future, it
> triggers the thought of stepping out now. Or it is an incentive to step in
> now.
>
> So, from such point of view it become a kind of "futures" trading - with
> risks involved when leveraging the future.
>
> Well, there are equally valid other points of view, and I could also put
> myself into their shows including the shoes of the team itself.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 February 2016 at 12:37, Mark Rauterkus 
> wrote:
>
> > Bravo to Tore Nilsen in this thread. Spot on.
> >
> > I mighy call myself a Hobbyists too, but I LOVE the open source community
> > version.
> >
> > Those with extra cash who desire to support the Mothership may want to
> > invest into a new LiveCode feature from time to time. Or, attend a
> LiveCode
> > event.
> >
> > I think the open source business model is splendid.
> >
> > As a hobbyists, we need to be more creative. Sell your services, get a
> > retainer, do extras with the next upgrade to customize, make money on
> ads,
> > sell a book, be a paid speaker / presenter, etc.
> >
> > Face it, open source LiveCode is still impossible for 99.99% of the world
> > to modify and cheat you from. Yake and resell without permission. And if
> > that happens, the public scorn would be bad. The backlash would be ugly.
> >
> > Mark Rauterkus
> > ___
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Matt Maier]

Okay, I think I follow that. It seems like a very specific case in that you
could just not share the software publically and then there's no conflict.
It sounds like the public use of the compiled software is a nice-to-have.

Maybe in the case that you want to let the world use the software in its
compiled form, but only share the source with a few individuals, you could
host the software as a web app. That way people could interact with it
without ever needing a copy. You could also pay Livecode to host the web
app, thus sending some money their way at the same time.

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 3:59 PM, [-hh]  wrote:

> > Matt M. wrote:
> > But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you distribute,
> > why would you need to close the source?
>
> Because, not always but sometimes, you would like to share the code
> with some people only, not with all.
> And at the same time you are willing to share your product with all,
> for free.
>
> Code has also an immaterial value.
>
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