Re: lcb missing manual

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

I emailed this privately to Brian, but I'll include it here for
everyone, too.
The versions of the LCB manuals that are on LC's website (at least the ones
that I was able to find), are dated. The versions that are included
embedded in LC are much more complete (though still missing things). Until
I was putting the wiki together, I didn't realize they were different. So,
until LC updates the version on the site, use the version that's embedded
in LC itself.
Anyway, Brian, it would be good to either have a "gotchas" page or another
wiki pages about aliased properties having to be defined before they are
aliased.
I think it would be good to add examples to the wiki as well, to make it
easier for more people to approach LCB, faster.


On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 9:48 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I guess I never answered the original question:
>
> The editor type isn't a LCB thing.  Those are a part of the IDE.  Here is
> the path from the open source repository:
> .../livecode/ide/Toolset/palettes/inspector/editors/
> You should also be able to find them in your local install of LC.
> /Applications/LiveCode/LiveCode 9.6.9 (rc
> 1).app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/palettes/inspector/editors/
> I agree that they should be documented somewhere.  Looking at the names
> there, most that you would use are probably fairly evident.
>
> The LiveCode Builder Style Guide/Widget specific guidelines covers the 4
> entries needed to use many of the PI editors.  There is one in a widget
> that could be useful though "user_visible" - this property is not displayed
> in the PI but is available to get/set.  "options" looks to be specific to
> the "enum" editor.
>
> The Extending Livecode Guide covers the 4 that are needed for the widget as
> a whole.  It does look like there are a few additional ones used in widgets
> that are not mentioned that should be included in the docs (os, svgicon,
> preferredsize, userVisible, _ide).
>
> I tend to be fairly adept at reading and understanding code - even if I
> don't know the syntax well enough to write it.  So I didn't really read the
> documentation to learn LCB (but referenced the syntax and style guide as
> needed), but read the widgets that I was working on.  As such, the things
> you are having difficulty finding didn't really impact my efforts.  I was
> mainly extending the widget and was just copying existing code as a model
> when adding things (properties and handlers).  About the only thing that
> really tripped me up was aliased properties.  You have to define the main
> property and then alias works.  If you define the alias, then it doesn't
> work (TreeView widget - scroll vice vscroll).  Considering all of this, I
> consider all of the included LCB source code as part of the documentation
> for LCB.
>
> I'll add some comments to your "issues"
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 3:49 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > I was about to call you out, too, Brian.
> > I started trying to work with LCB several years ago, kept slamming into
> > things that weren't documented, and decided I had better things to do
> with
> > my time.
> > Now I'm back at it, but I don't think it should be such a black hole,
> > especially when I put it down for a couple of months and then want to get
> > back into it.
> > If we want other people to take the plunge, and maybe invent cool stuff
> > using it, something better than what exists, now, should exist.
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 3:36 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Honestly the way I learned the most about LCB was working on the LC
> > > widgets.  There is plenty of example code there but you just have to
> > spend
> > > time understanding what you are reading.
> > >
> > > Brian Milby
> > > br...@milby7.com
> > >
> > > > On Sep 10, 2022, at 2:01 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I was trying to work on Ralph's improvements on the navBar and I
> kept
> > > > getting bitten by the thin documentation of lcb, so for my own
> > benefit, i
> > > > started a wiki and issues list to fill in the blanks
> > > > Please help me learn lcb by adding to both of these.
> > > > The wiki: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/wiki
> > > > The issues: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/issues
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 8:42 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> On 9/2/22 16:54, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> > > >>> Did a simple test with 819kb json file:
> > > >>> - JSON Library / LCB 5400 ms
> > > >>> - PhotonJSON / LCS 400 ms
> > > >>> - mergJSON / extension 250 ms
> > > >>
> > > >> That's impressive. Monte's external is written in C, so that's as
> > close
> > > >> to bare metal as we're gonna get.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >>  Mark Wi

Re: lcb missing manual

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

I guess I never answered the original question:

The editor type isn't a LCB thing.  Those are a part of the IDE.  Here is
the path from the open source repository:
.../livecode/ide/Toolset/palettes/inspector/editors/
You should also be able to find them in your local install of LC.
/Applications/LiveCode/LiveCode 9.6.9 (rc
1).app/Contents/Tools/Toolset/palettes/inspector/editors/
I agree that they should be documented somewhere.  Looking at the names
there, most that you would use are probably fairly evident.

The LiveCode Builder Style Guide/Widget specific guidelines covers the 4
entries needed to use many of the PI editors.  There is one in a widget
that could be useful though "user_visible" - this property is not displayed
in the PI but is available to get/set.  "options" looks to be specific to
the "enum" editor.

The Extending Livecode Guide covers the 4 that are needed for the widget as
a whole.  It does look like there are a few additional ones used in widgets
that are not mentioned that should be included in the docs (os, svgicon,
preferredsize, userVisible, _ide).

I tend to be fairly adept at reading and understanding code - even if I
don't know the syntax well enough to write it.  So I didn't really read the
documentation to learn LCB (but referenced the syntax and style guide as
needed), but read the widgets that I was working on.  As such, the things
you are having difficulty finding didn't really impact my efforts.  I was
mainly extending the widget and was just copying existing code as a model
when adding things (properties and handlers).  About the only thing that
really tripped me up was aliased properties.  You have to define the main
property and then alias works.  If you define the alias, then it doesn't
work (TreeView widget - scroll vice vscroll).  Considering all of this, I
consider all of the included LCB source code as part of the documentation
for LCB.

I'll add some comments to your "issues"

Thanks,
Brian


On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 3:49 PM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I was about to call you out, too, Brian.
> I started trying to work with LCB several years ago, kept slamming into
> things that weren't documented, and decided I had better things to do with
> my time.
> Now I'm back at it, but I don't think it should be such a black hole,
> especially when I put it down for a couple of months and then want to get
> back into it.
> If we want other people to take the plunge, and maybe invent cool stuff
> using it, something better than what exists, now, should exist.
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 3:36 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Honestly the way I learned the most about LCB was working on the LC
> > widgets.  There is plenty of example code there but you just have to
> spend
> > time understanding what you are reading.
> >
> > Brian Milby
> > br...@milby7.com
> >
> > > On Sep 10, 2022, at 2:01 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was trying to work on Ralph's improvements on the navBar and I kept
> > > getting bitten by the thin documentation of lcb, so for my own
> benefit, i
> > > started a wiki and issues list to fill in the blanks
> > > Please help me learn lcb by adding to both of these.
> > > The wiki: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/wiki
> > > The issues: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/issues
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 8:42 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On 9/2/22 16:54, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> > >>> Did a simple test with 819kb json file:
> > >>> - JSON Library / LCB 5400 ms
> > >>> - PhotonJSON / LCS 400 ms
> > >>> - mergJSON / extension 250 ms
> > >>
> > >> That's impressive. Monte's external is written in C, so that's as
> close
> > >> to bare metal as we're gonna get.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>  Mark Wieder
> > >>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> use-livecode mailing list
> > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > >> subscription preferences:
> > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> > >   and did a little diving.
> > > And God said, "This is good."
> > > ___
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please v

Re: lcb missing manual

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

I was about to call you out, too, Brian.
I started trying to work with LCB several years ago, kept slamming into
things that weren't documented, and decided I had better things to do with
my time.
Now I'm back at it, but I don't think it should be such a black hole,
especially when I put it down for a couple of months and then want to get
back into it.
If we want other people to take the plunge, and maybe invent cool stuff
using it, something better than what exists, now, should exist.

On Sat, Sep 10, 2022 at 3:36 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Honestly the way I learned the most about LCB was working on the LC
> widgets.  There is plenty of example code there but you just have to spend
> time understanding what you are reading.
>
> Brian Milby
> br...@milby7.com
>
> > On Sep 10, 2022, at 2:01 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was trying to work on Ralph's improvements on the navBar and I kept
> > getting bitten by the thin documentation of lcb, so for my own benefit, i
> > started a wiki and issues list to fill in the blanks
> > Please help me learn lcb by adding to both of these.
> > The wiki: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/wiki
> > The issues: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/issues
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 8:42 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 9/2/22 16:54, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> >>> Did a simple test with 819kb json file:
> >>> - JSON Library / LCB 5400 ms
> >>> - PhotonJSON / LCS 400 ms
> >>> - mergJSON / extension 250 ms
> >>
> >> That's impressive. Monte's external is written in C, so that's as close
> >> to bare metal as we're gonna get.
> >>
> >> --
> >>  Mark Wieder
> >>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> >>
> >> ___
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> >> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> >   and did a little diving.
> > And God said, "This is good."
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
___
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

Honestly the way I learned the most about LCB was working on the LC widgets.  
There is plenty of example code there but you just have to spend time 
understanding what you are reading.

Brian Milby
br...@milby7.com

> On Sep 10, 2022, at 2:01 PM, Mike Kerner via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was trying to work on Ralph's improvements on the navBar and I kept
> getting bitten by the thin documentation of lcb, so for my own benefit, i
> started a wiki and issues list to fill in the blanks
> Please help me learn lcb by adding to both of these.
> The wiki: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/wiki
> The issues: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/issues
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 8:42 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 9/2/22 16:54, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Did a simple test with 819kb json file:
>>> - JSON Library / LCB 5400 ms
>>> - PhotonJSON / LCS 400 ms
>>> - mergJSON / extension 250 ms
>> 
>> That's impressive. Monte's external is written in C, so that's as close
>> to bare metal as we're gonna get.
>> 
>> --
>>  Mark Wieder
>>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>> 
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>   and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

I was trying to work on Ralph's improvements on the navBar and I kept
getting bitten by the thin documentation of lcb, so for my own benefit, i
started a wiki and issues list to fill in the blanks
Please help me learn lcb by adding to both of these.
The wiki: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/wiki
The issues: https://github.com/macMikey/LCB-missing-manual/issues


On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 8:42 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 9/2/22 16:54, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:
> > Did a simple test with 819kb json file:
> > - JSON Library / LCB 5400 ms
> > - PhotonJSON / LCS 400 ms
> > - mergJSON / extension 250 ms
>
> That's impressive. Monte's external is written in C, so that's as close
> to bare metal as we're gonna get.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
___
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 9/2/22 16:54, Brian Milby via use-livecode wrote:

Did a simple test with 819kb json file:
- JSON Library / LCB 5400 ms
- PhotonJSON / LCS 400 ms
- mergJSON / extension 250 ms


That's impressive. Monte's external is written in C, so that's as close 
to bare metal as we're gonna get.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: lcb missing manual

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

Did a simple test with 819kb json file:
- JSON Library / LCB 5400 ms
- PhotonJSON / LCS 400 ms
- mergJSON / extension 250 ms

Brian Milby
br...@milby7.com

> On Sep 2, 2022, at 4:27 PM, Brian Milby  wrote:
> 
> Look no further than comparing the JSON library written in LCB and LCS 
> (PhotonJSON).  I’m thinking that the LCS is probably faster.  Probably worth 
> a shot to actually test in more detail.  I tried to import the smartcrumbs 
> output with the external, LCB and LCS and only the LCS even was successful 
> (probably due to the MD5 hashes).
> 
> Each has strengths and a use case.  LCB can do quite a bit that you just 
> can’t do with LCS.  The efficiency of dealing with a single object widget 
> over a grouped control is another plus.  I’d imagine quite a bit of the speed 
> of the new widgets over DG is going to be along these lines.  LC Mark would 
> be the one to speak to speed differences between LCB and LCS though.
> 
> Brian Milby
> br...@milby7.com
> 
>>> On Sep 2, 2022, at 3:59 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 9/2/22 10:43, Jacques Clavel via use-livecode wrote:
>>> 
>>> You can write exactly the same functions, commands in LCB than in LCS
>> 
>> Um, no.
>> There are quite a few pain points trying to determine the differences in 
>> what is supported and what is different.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Mark Wieder
>> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>> 
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

Look no further than comparing the JSON library written in LCB and LCS 
(PhotonJSON).  I’m thinking that the LCS is probably faster.  Probably worth a 
shot to actually test in more detail.  I tried to import the smartcrumbs output 
with the external, LCB and LCS and only the LCS even was successful (probably 
due to the MD5 hashes).

Each has strengths and a use case.  LCB can do quite a bit that you just can’t 
do with LCS.  The efficiency of dealing with a single object widget over a 
grouped control is another plus.  I’d imagine quite a bit of the speed of the 
new widgets over DG is going to be along these lines.  LC Mark would be the one 
to speak to speed differences between LCB and LCS though.

Brian Milby
br...@milby7.com

> On Sep 2, 2022, at 3:59 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 9/2/22 10:43, Jacques Clavel via use-livecode wrote:
> 
>> You can write exactly the same functions, commands in LCB than in LCS
> 
> Um, no.
> There are quite a few pain points trying to determine the differences in what 
> is supported and what is different.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
> ___
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 9/2/22 10:43, Jacques Clavel via use-livecode wrote:


You can write exactly the same functions, commands in LCB than in LCS


Um, no.
There are quite a few pain points trying to determine the differences in 
what is supported and what is different.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: lcb missing manual

[Jacques Clavel via use-livecode]

As a typed language, LCB should be more efficient than LCS.
Writing programs in LCB is more difficult and time consuming (bogs...) than
using higher level language (LCS)
You can write exactly the same functions, commands in LCB than in LCS
JC

Le ven. 2 sept. 2022 à 17:13, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> a écrit :

> I wonder why the polygrid is so much faster than the datagrid at rendering,
> then, in the demo
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 10:54 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > Or slower than both? As I understand it, LCB has the capability to call C
> > externals which themselves would be faster than anything, but on it's own
> > it is slower than both.
> >
> > Bob S
> >
> >
> > On Sep 2, 2022, at 01:00 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 10:08 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Its much faster than C but slower than Script.
> >
> > Should that be "much slower than C but faster than Script"?
> >
> > In which case, what happened to the "faster than script" part?
> >
> > ___
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> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
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> >
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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-- 
Jacques Clavel
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

I wonder why the polygrid is so much faster than the datagrid at rendering,
then, in the demo

On Fri, Sep 2, 2022 at 10:54 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Or slower than both? As I understand it, LCB has the capability to call C
> externals which themselves would be faster than anything, but on it's own
> it is slower than both.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2022, at 01:00 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 10:08 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
> wrote:
>
> Its much faster than C but slower than Script.
>
> Should that be "much slower than C but faster than Script"?
>
> In which case, what happened to the "faster than script" part?
>
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Or slower than both? As I understand it, LCB has the capability to call C 
externals which themselves would be faster than anything, but on it's own it is 
slower than both.

Bob S


On Sep 2, 2022, at 01:00 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 10:08 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

Its much faster than C but slower than Script.

Should that be "much slower than C but faster than Script"?

In which case, what happened to the "faster than script" part?

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Re: lcb missing manual

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 10:08 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Its much faster than C but slower than Script.

Should that be "much slower than C but faster than Script"?

In which case, what happened to the "faster than script" part?
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Geoff Canyon wrote:

> I've put off LCB because I don't much bother with widgets.
> I suppose I could update Navigator, but it already works well,
> so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>
> So if it isn't faster, dare I say it, why would I?

Foreign Function Interface, and certain custom control needs.

In short, the language choice hierarchy seems to be:

- Use LC Script wherever you can.

- If you need FFI or have specific rendering/packaging needs
  for shared components beyond what custom group-based controls
  offer, use LC Builder.

- If raw CPU speed is absolutely critical, consider externals.


Kevin said this more eloquently back around the time LC Builder premiered:

I think this is a really important principal. Always use
the highest level language you can for any given project.
Offering that very high level language option is a big
part of LiveCode's reason for being.

Previously our primary choices were between LiveCode
Script and a lower level language such as C. Now we have
a third choice, an intermediate LiveCode Builder. Its
much faster than C but slower than Script. It is going
to excel at certain tasks. However we should always
choose to use it only when it offers clear advantages
above LiveCode Script for the project that outweigh the
extra level of effort needed to use it. I know its
very tempting having added a whole new language to build
everything in that, but we must carefully resist that
temptation and use it judiciously, only for what it is best at.

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2015-August/217849.html


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems

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RE: lcb missing manual

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

42

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of 
Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2022 11:11 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Bob Sneidar
Subject: Re: lcb missing manual

Also, when it comes to performance, developers should ask not only is it 
faster, but would anyone notice the difference? I used to say, "A computer only 
needs to be fast enough." Some will ask, "Fast enough for what?" To which I 
reply, "Now you are asking the right question."

Bob S


On Aug 31, 2022, at 21:54 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Agreed -- I've put off LCB because I don't much bother with widgets. I suppose 
I could update Navigator, but it already works well, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So if it isn't faster, dare I say it, why would I?

gc

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Re: lcb missing manual

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Also, when it comes to performance, developers should ask not only is it 
faster, but would anyone notice the difference? I used to say, "A computer only 
needs to be fast enough." Some will ask, "Fast enough for what?" To which I 
reply, "Now you are asking the right question."

Bob S


On Aug 31, 2022, at 21:54 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Agreed -- I've put off LCB because I don't much bother with widgets. I
suppose I could update Navigator, but it already works well, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So if it isn't faster, dare I say it, why would I?

gc

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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

I don't know why you would.
Libraries that aren't trying to get into system-level API's don't need to
be there.

On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 12:56 AM Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Agreed -- I've put off LCB because I don't much bother with widgets. I
> suppose I could update Navigator, but it already works well, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>
> So if it isn't faster, dare I say it, why would I?
>
> gc
>
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 5:54 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > It would be interesting if lcb was slower, since it's supposed to be
> > lower-level.
> > The demo that Steven did, demonstrating the speed of populating a
> polyGrid
> > (lcb widget) vs. a dataGrid (lcs group) was that it was much, much
> faster.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 5:58 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > > LCB has been slower than LCS, but the advantage is that you can easily
> > > link to much faster compiler code.  I’m not sure if that has changed
> > any… I
> > > could pull out some code from a while back where we were doing some
> speed
> > > tests.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Aug 30, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Is there a page that discusses the pros of LCB? I looked and didn’t
> > > find it.
> > > >
> > > > I’m thinking of a simple list (I’m making this up because I didn’t
> find
> > > the page)
> > > >
> > > > — N times faster execution than LCS
> > > > — interface with code libraries using simple hooks
> > > > — bundle code and graphics together into widgets
> > > >
> > > > More?
> > > >
> > > > gc
> > > >
> > > >>> On Aug 28, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On 8/28/22 11:06, Mike Kerner wrote:
> > > >>> the lcb documentation, especially in the api widget is ungreat.
> > > >>> the good news is that as long as there is an oss repo version of
> LC,
> > > you can hunt for some of the information that is missing. AND, at least
> > for
> > > now, you can still find much of it in the LC application
> > > >>> example: as i was hunting, i found a bunch of editors, but none of
> > > them seem to be documented anywhere obvious.
> > > >>
> > > >> Yep - I find most of my documentation by digging.
> > > >>
> > > >> The lack of colornames just bit me earlier this week and I had to
> > > backpedal and code a list of a dozen color names as "R,G,B". Even the
> > > "#FF" format isn't accepted.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Mark Wieder
> > > >> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> > > >>
> > > >> ___
> > > >> use-livecode mailing list
> > > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
> > > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
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> > >
> > > ___
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> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > > subscription preferences:
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> > On the second day, God created the oceans.
> > On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
> >and did a little diving.
> > And God said, "This is good."
> > ___
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> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
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> > subscription preferences:
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On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

Agreed -- I've put off LCB because I don't much bother with widgets. I
suppose I could update Navigator, but it already works well, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So if it isn't faster, dare I say it, why would I?

gc

On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 5:54 AM Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> It would be interesting if lcb was slower, since it's supposed to be
> lower-level.
> The demo that Steven did, demonstrating the speed of populating a polyGrid
> (lcb widget) vs. a dataGrid (lcs group) was that it was much, much faster.
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 5:58 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > LCB has been slower than LCS, but the advantage is that you can easily
> > link to much faster compiler code.  I’m not sure if that has changed
> any… I
> > could pull out some code from a while back where we were doing some speed
> > tests.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Aug 30, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is there a page that discusses the pros of LCB? I looked and didn’t
> > find it.
> > >
> > > I’m thinking of a simple list (I’m making this up because I didn’t find
> > the page)
> > >
> > > — N times faster execution than LCS
> > > — interface with code libraries using simple hooks
> > > — bundle code and graphics together into widgets
> > >
> > > More?
> > >
> > > gc
> > >
> > >>> On Aug 28, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> On 8/28/22 11:06, Mike Kerner wrote:
> > >>> the lcb documentation, especially in the api widget is ungreat.
> > >>> the good news is that as long as there is an oss repo version of LC,
> > you can hunt for some of the information that is missing. AND, at least
> for
> > now, you can still find much of it in the LC application
> > >>> example: as i was hunting, i found a bunch of editors, but none of
> > them seem to be documented anywhere obvious.
> > >>
> > >> Yep - I find most of my documentation by digging.
> > >>
> > >> The lack of colornames just bit me earlier this week and I had to
> > backpedal and code a list of a dozen color names as "R,G,B". Even the
> > "#FF" format isn't accepted.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Mark Wieder
> > >> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> use-livecode mailing list
> > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> > > ___
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> ___
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> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Sean Cole via use-livecode]

The subject of the dictionary has long been one of contention. One that I
have often spoken up and been shouted down about (nb, I'm not making
accusations or flames :) ). But I also understand the great amount of
resources this would take to produce decent, up to date guides and
indices of all the terms and libraries. LC's become quite the behemoth and
I doubt any one individual could carry it out. Indeed, even a bunch of us
during past HacktoberFests only achieved a percentage of it.

The AI thing Kevin showed us some time ago showed promise. But I'm not sure
how far off that is from seeing the light of day. Hopefully soon if I
haven't already missed it. But, even so, a lot of the examples, language
and syntax are out of date or incomplete so would still need some work.

As someone who eats manuals and dictionaries for brunch I'd love to be part
of the team to put it together as I have in the past. But I guess it would
depend on LCL having the resources to put into it. I would hope they see it
as important as we do.

All the best

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 at 13:53, Mike Kerner via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> It would be interesting if lcb was slower, since it's supposed to be
> lower-level.
> The demo that Steven did, demonstrating the speed of populating a polyGrid
> (lcb widget) vs. a dataGrid (lcs group) was that it was much, much faster.
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 5:58 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> > LCB has been slower than LCS, but the advantage is that you can easily
> > link to much faster compiler code.  I’m not sure if that has changed
> any… I
> > could pull out some code from a while back where we were doing some speed
> > tests.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Aug 30, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is there a page that discusses the pros of LCB? I looked and didn’t
> > find it.
> > >
> > > I’m thinking of a simple list (I’m making this up because I didn’t find
> > the page)
> > >
> > > — N times faster execution than LCS
> > > — interface with code libraries using simple hooks
> > > — bundle code and graphics together into widgets
> > >
> > > More?
> > >
> > > gc
> > >
> > >>> On Aug 28, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> On 8/28/22 11:06, Mike Kerner wrote:
> > >>> the lcb documentation, especially in the api widget is ungreat.
> > >>> the good news is that as long as there is an oss repo version of LC,
> > you can hunt for some of the information that is missing. AND, at least
> for
> > now, you can still find much of it in the LC application
> > >>> example: as i was hunting, i found a bunch of editors, but none of
> > them seem to be documented anywhere obvious.
> > >>
> > >> Yep - I find most of my documentation by digging.
> > >>
> > >> The lack of colornames just bit me earlier this week and I had to
> > backpedal and code a list of a dozen color names as "R,G,B". Even the
> > "#FF" format isn't accepted.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Mark Wieder
> > >> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> use-livecode mailing list
> > >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> > >
> > > ___
> > > use-livecode mailing list
> > > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> > subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
>
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

It would be interesting if lcb was slower, since it's supposed to be
lower-level.
The demo that Steven did, demonstrating the speed of populating a polyGrid
(lcb widget) vs. a dataGrid (lcs group) was that it was much, much faster.

On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 5:58 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> LCB has been slower than LCS, but the advantage is that you can easily
> link to much faster compiler code.  I’m not sure if that has changed any… I
> could pull out some code from a while back where we were doing some speed
> tests.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Aug 30, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > Is there a page that discusses the pros of LCB? I looked and didn’t
> find it.
> >
> > I’m thinking of a simple list (I’m making this up because I didn’t find
> the page)
> >
> > — N times faster execution than LCS
> > — interface with code libraries using simple hooks
> > — bundle code and graphics together into widgets
> >
> > More?
> >
> > gc
> >
> >>> On Aug 28, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 8/28/22 11:06, Mike Kerner wrote:
> >>> the lcb documentation, especially in the api widget is ungreat.
> >>> the good news is that as long as there is an oss repo version of LC,
> you can hunt for some of the information that is missing. AND, at least for
> now, you can still find much of it in the LC application
> >>> example: as i was hunting, i found a bunch of editors, but none of
> them seem to be documented anywhere obvious.
> >>
> >> Yep - I find most of my documentation by digging.
> >>
> >> The lack of colornames just bit me earlier this week and I had to
> backpedal and code a list of a dozen color names as "R,G,B". Even the
> "#FF" format isn't accepted.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Mark Wieder
> >> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> >>
> >> ___
> >> use-livecode mailing list
> >> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> >> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> >> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

LCB has been slower than LCS, but the advantage is that you can easily link to 
much faster compiler code.  I’m not sure if that has changed any… I could pull 
out some code from a while back where we were doing some speed tests.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 30, 2022, at 5:31 PM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Is there a page that discusses the pros of LCB? I looked and didn’t find it. 
> 
> I’m thinking of a simple list (I’m making this up because I didn’t find the 
> page)
> 
> — N times faster execution than LCS
> — interface with code libraries using simple hooks
> — bundle code and graphics together into widgets
> 
> More?
> 
> gc
> 
>>> On Aug 28, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 8/28/22 11:06, Mike Kerner wrote:
>>> the lcb documentation, especially in the api widget is ungreat.
>>> the good news is that as long as there is an oss repo version of LC, you 
>>> can hunt for some of the information that is missing. AND, at least for 
>>> now, you can still find much of it in the LC application
>>> example: as i was hunting, i found a bunch of editors, but none of them 
>>> seem to be documented anywhere obvious.
>> 
>> Yep - I find most of my documentation by digging.
>> 
>> The lack of colornames just bit me earlier this week and I had to backpedal 
>> and code a list of a dozen color names as "R,G,B". Even the "#FF" format 
>> isn't accepted.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Mark Wieder
>> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>> 
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

Is there a page that discusses the pros of LCB? I looked and didn’t find it. 

I’m thinking of a simple list (I’m making this up because I didn’t find the 
page)

 — N times faster execution than LCS
 — interface with code libraries using simple hooks
 — bundle code and graphics together into widgets

More?

gc

> On Aug 28, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 8/28/22 11:06, Mike Kerner wrote:
>> the lcb documentation, especially in the api widget is ungreat.
>> the good news is that as long as there is an oss repo version of LC, you can 
>> hunt for some of the information that is missing. AND, at least for now, you 
>> can still find much of it in the LC application
>> example: as i was hunting, i found a bunch of editors, but none of them seem 
>> to be documented anywhere obvious.
> 
> Yep - I find most of my documentation by digging.
> 
> The lack of colornames just bit me earlier this week and I had to backpedal 
> and code a list of a dozen color names as "R,G,B". Even the "#FF" format 
> isn't accepted.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder
> ahsoftw...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 8/28/22 11:06, Mike Kerner wrote:

the lcb documentation, especially in the api widget is ungreat.
the good news is that as long as there is an oss repo version of LC, you 
can hunt for some of the information that is missing. AND, at least for 
now, you can still find much of it in the LC application
example: as i was hunting, i found a bunch of editors, but none of them 
seem to be documented anywhere obvious.


Yep - I find most of my documentation by digging.

The lack of colornames just bit me earlier this week and I had to 
backpedal and code a list of a dozen color names as "R,G,B". Even the 
"#FF" format isn't accepted.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

the lcb documentation, especially in the api widget is ungreat.
the good news is that as long as there is an oss repo version of LC, you
can hunt for some of the information that is missing. AND, at least for
now, you can still find much of it in the LC application
example: as i was hunting, i found a bunch of editors, but none of them
seem to be documented anywhere obvious.

On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 1:18 PM Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 8/28/22 09:58, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:
> > things for lcb that are supposedly documented, but i can't find:
> > * editor types (e.g. com.livecode.pi.number)
> > * other metadata definitions for properties, widgets, etc.)
>
> ...things that we use in LCS but aren't available in LCB:
> colornames
> switch statements
> etc.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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> subscription preferences:
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>


-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: lcb missing manual

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 8/28/22 09:58, Mike Kerner via use-livecode wrote:

things for lcb that are supposedly documented, but i can't find:
* editor types (e.g. com.livecode.pi.number)
* other metadata definitions for properties, widgets, etc.)


...things that we use in LCS but aren't available in LCB:
colornames
switch statements
etc.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: lcb missing manual

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

It would be good were there full documentation for LCB, and, preferably
with some sort of thematic search so, unlike the LiveCode dictionary one
did not have to flounder around so much working out what to search for.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2022, 18:00 Mike Kerner via use-livecode, <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> things for lcb that are supposedly documented, but i can't find:
> * editor types (e.g. com.livecode.pi.number)
> * other metadata definitions for properties, widgets, etc.)
>
> --
> On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
> On the second day, God created the oceans.
> On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
>and did a little diving.
> And God said, "This is good."
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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