Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Oh that is interesting. Each number has to be a separate argument. That is 
something I did not glean from reading the docs a while back.

Bob S


On Apr 6, 2017, at 14:26 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
> wrote:

put format("%03d.%03d.%03d.%03d",192,168,1,1) produces 192.168.001.001

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

On 4/6/2017 5:04 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
> put format("00:00:00", "9:50:00") produces 00:00:00. 
> put format("##:##:##", "9:50:00") produces ##:##:##. 
> put format("nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn", "192.168.1.1") produces nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn

put format("%2d:%02d:%02d", 9,50,0) produces 9:50:00

put format("%02d:%02d:%02d", 9,50,0) produces 09:50:00

put format("%0d.%0d.%0d.%0d",192,168,1,1) produces 192.168.1.1

put format("%03d.%03d.%03d.%03d",192,168,1,1) produces 192.168.001.001

I am not sure there is any delimited set of strings or numeric
information you can't format. I do get that "00:00:00" is more intuitive
than "%02d:%02d:%02d", which is why I suspect it is just the learning
curve of understanding the syntax of the format function that prevents
more people from using it.


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

put format("00:00:00", "9:50:00") produces 00:00:00. 
put format("##:##:##", "9:50:00") produces ##:##:##. 
put format("nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn", "192.168.1.1") produces nnn.nnn.nnn.nnn

Point being, format is great for formatting NUMBERS, not converting truncated 
numeric values in between delimiters or inserting literal string values in the 
appropriate places. Some may not see the need for this, or can thing of one off 
methods for doing each of these. So can I. I just don't like solving a problem 
over and over, and once solved I like to share that with others. 

As I said, Excel does this pretty well. I just need to mimic what they are 
doing. The trick would be to find the start and end character of actual numeric 
values in a string and replace them with reformatted versions in the format 
string. So "   1.55" with a format string of "00.000%" would return "01.550%" 
(not that you would need that, but you get the point.) 

Bob S


> On Apr 6, 2017, at 11:13 , hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> You forgot to give examples for Bob's original problem?
> The negative numbers ... ;-)
> 
>> Paul D. wrote:
> 
>>> put format("$%0.2f",tMoney) into msg
>>> 
>>> for tMoney = 5.55, you get $5.55
>>> for tMoney = 5.3, you get $5.33
>>> 
>>> want a space between the $, then use
>>> put format("$ %0.2f",tMoney) into msg
>>> 
>>> want a leading zero and minimum of 2 digits before the decimal point
>>> put format("$ %05.2f",5.553) into msg
> 
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

Okay,

put format("$ %05.2f",-5.553) into msg
gives $ -5.55

I am sure there is some formatting someone would want that can not be
done with the format function, but most can and without spending the
time to exhaustively test, I suspect that anything you can do with
numberFormat you can do with format.



On 4/6/2017 2:13 PM, hh via use-livecode wrote:
> You forgot to give examples for Bob's original problem?
> The negative numbers ... ;-)
>
>> Paul D. wrote:
>>> put format("$%0.2f",tMoney) into msg
>>>
>>> for tMoney = 5.55, you get $5.55
>>> for tMoney = 5.3, you get $5.33
>>>
>>> want a space between the $, then use
>>> put format("$ %0.2f",tMoney) into msg
>>>
>>> want a leading zero and minimum of 2 digits before the decimal point
>>> put format("$ %05.2f",5.553) into msg
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[hh via use-livecode]

You forgot to give examples for Bob's original problem?
The negative numbers ... ;-)

> Paul D. wrote:

>> put format("$%0.2f",tMoney) into msg
>> 
>> for tMoney = 5.55, you get $5.55
>> for tMoney = 5.3, you get $5.33
>> 
>> want a space between the $, then use
>> put format("$ %0.2f",tMoney) into msg
>> 
>> want a leading zero and minimum of 2 digits before the decimal point
>> put format("$ %05.2f",5.553) into msg

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

I am curious why folks use numberFormat vs the format function (which is
much more consistent and versatile). Is the issue the complexity of the
formatting strings for the format function?

put format("$%0.2f",tMoney) into msg

for tMoney = 5.55, you get $5.55
for tMoney = 5.3, you get $5.33

want a space between the $, then use
put format("$ %0.2f",tMoney) into msg

want a leading zero and minimum of 2 digits before the decimal point
put format("$ %05.2f",5.553) into msg

I concur with Richards comment from Mark - it just seems like a low
value and high risk work to change numberFormat at this point. I would
think people should consider it deprecated in favor of format.

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I already have some functions for formatting numerical values I can submit for 
review. formatDate() is already in the masterLibrary.

function formatMoney theValue
   -- strip out monetary symbols
   replace "$" with empty in theValue
   replace "¢" with empty in theValue

   switch
  case theValue = 0 or theValue >= 1
 put format("$%1.2f", theValue) into theValue
 break
  case theValue >= 0
 put format("%#.2f¢", theValue) into theValue
 break
  case theValue <= -1
 replace "-" WITH empty in theValue
 put format("($%1.2f)", theValue) into theValue
 break
  case theValue < 0
 replace "-" WITH empty in theValue
 put format("(%#.2f¢)", theValue) into theValue
 break
   end switch

   return theValue
end formatMoney


function formatPhone thePhoneNumber, theFormat
   -- text
   -- mid
   if theFormat is empty then
  put "classic" into theFormat
   end if

   if thePhoneNumber is empty then
  return thePhoneNumber
   end if

   put word 2 to -1 of thePhoneNumber into theExtension
   delete word 2 to -1 of thePhoneNumber

   repeat WITH i = 1 to the number of chars of thePhoneNumber
  if char i of thePhoneNumber is a number then
 put char i of thePhoneNumber after theNewValue
  end if
   end repeat

   put the length of theNewValue into theLength
   if theLength is not among the items of "7,10" then
  return thePhoneNumber && theExtension
  exit formatPhone
   end if

   put "-" before char -4 of theNewValue

   if theLength is 10 then
  if theFormat is "classic" then
 put ") " after char 3 of theNewValue
 put "(" before theNewValue
  else
 put "-" after char 3 of theNewValue
  end if
   end if

   if theExtension is not empty then put " " & theExtension after theNewValue
   return theNewValue
end formatPhone



On Apr 6, 2017, at 08:35 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
> wrote:

Perhaps this raises a more interesting question:

Should we consider creating a new more fully-featured function which not only 
behaves as we might find ideal for decimal values, but also supports formatting 
of phone numbers, currency, and other common display formats?

Maybe a pair of functions would be useful so we could easily transform between 
display and calculation formats, something like:

put formattedValue(".25", "currency-US") -- returns: $0.25
put rawValue("$0.25". "currency-US") -- returns: 0.25

Should there be some provision for doing that on a list where a column 
specifier could be supplied?:

put rawValue(tSomeLlist, "currency-US", 2) -- returns the list with
   values in column 2 converted to calculable formats.

This could be written in LC Script or LC Builder - might be a good community 
project

--
Richard Gaskin

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Paul Dupuis wrote:

> On 4/5/17 5:48 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>>
>> Confirmed - running this script in v9dp6 and again all the way back
>> in v6.0:
>>
>> on mouseUp
>>set the numberformat to "###.###"
>>put 2.5 + 2.5 into x
>>set the numberformat to "000.000"
>>put 2.5 + 2.5 into y
>>put x & y
>> end mouseUp
>>
>> ...I get:
>>
>> 005.000
>> 005.000
>
> NumberFormat on applies when the number is output or forced to convert
> to a string (for example when doing string concatenation). The variant
> script below:
>
> on mouseUp
>set the numberformat to "###.###"
>put 2.5 + 2.5 into x
>put x & cr after msg
>set the numberformat to "000.000"
>put 2.5 + 2.5 into y
>put y  after msg
> end mouseUp
>
> results in:
>
> 005
> 005.000

D'oh!  Yes, of course, I'd forgotten to make sure the value is coerced 
to a string for each unique output. Good catch.


It still seems off though, on the left side of the decimal. I would have 
expected the first value to be "5", given that "#" provides a space only 
when needed.


The LC Dict only discusses the distinction between "#" and "0" for 
numbers on the right side of the decimal, so I turned to "HyperTalk 2.2: 
The Book" for further guidance - and found what appear to be 
contradicting examples.


Among the many examples listed on p.411 for the "numberFormat" property are:

 set the numberFormat to "#.000" - 0.25031 is displayed as .250
 set the numberFormat to "#.###" - 0.25031 is displayed as .25
 set the numberFormat to "#.000" - 0.25031 is displayed as 0.2503100
 set the numberFormat to "#.000" - 0.25031 is displayed as 0.25031

In each of those examples, what's happening on the right side of the 
decimal follows predictable rules.  But the left side seems 
inconsistent, in some cases using the "#" to force a leading 0 and in 
other cases not.


The relevant portion of the book's text for that entry says:

   The number of zeroes before the decimal point is the minimum number
   of integer digits to display.  HyperTalk always includes at least
   enough digits to specify the result of the calculation.  If there
   are more digits in the number than the numberFormat calls for,
   HyperTalk displays all the digits.  If there are fewer digits than
   the numberFormat calls for, HyperTalk adds leading zeroes to the
   beginning of the number.

There's further discussion of what happens after the decimal, but for 
what happens before the decimal only "0" is discussed, with no mention 
of what "#" should do when on the left side of the decimal.


The same omission is found (or more specifically, not found ) in the 
SuperTalk 3.0 Language Guide.


Unable to find clarity on that, I decided to try each of those HyperTalk 
examples above in LC - here's what I got:


 set the numberFormat to "#.000" - 0.25031 is displayed as 0.250
 set the numberFormat to "#.###" - 0.25031 is displayed as 0.25
 set the numberFormat to "#.000" - 0.25031 is displayed as 0.2503100
 set the numberFormat to "#.000" - 0.25031 is displayed as 0.25031


Summary:

HyperTalk: I have no idea what it's doing.

LiveCode:  Either "#" or "0" to the left of the decimal will result
   in padding with leading 0s.

LC is certainly more consistent, but is it what we'd expect or want?

As Mark Waddingham noted, the engine code for numberFormat has been 
unchanged in such a long time that, regardless of what *might* be 
"best", it's unlikely to change at this point out of concern for scripts 
dependent on its current behavior.


Perhaps this raises a more interesting question:

Should we consider creating a new more fully-featured function which not 
only behaves as we might find ideal for decimal values, but also 
supports formatting of phone numbers, currency, and other common display 
formats?


Maybe a pair of functions would be useful so we could easily transform 
between display and calculation formats, something like:


put formattedValue(".25", "currency-US") -- returns: $0.25
put rawValue("$0.25". "currency-US") -- returns: 0.25

Should there be some provision for doing that on a list where a column 
specifier could be supplied?:


put rawValue(tSomeLlist, "currency-US", 2) -- returns the list with
values in column 2 converted to calculable formats.

This could be written in LC Script or LC Builder - might be a good 
community project


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I've created a monster. All the more reason to depricate numberformat and go 
with some kind of formatNumber() function like Excel has. I'll have a go today 
sometime. 

Bob S


> On Apr 5, 2017, at 17:27 , Paul Dupuis via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 4/5/2017 7:42 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>> On 4/5/17 5:48 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Jacque wrote:
>>> 
 HyperCard distinguished between "#" and "0" and produced different
 results. It sounds like LC doesn't?
>>> 
>>> Confirmed - running this script in v9dp6 and again all the way back in
>>> v6.0:
>>> 
>>> on mouseUp
>>>   set the numberformat to "###.###"
>>>   put 2.5 + 2.5 into x
>>>   set the numberformat to "000.000"
>>>   put 2.5 + 2.5 into y
>>>   put x & y
>>> end mouseUp
>>> 
>>> ...I get:
>>> 
>>> 005.000
>>> 005.000
> 
> NumberFormat on applies when the number is output or forced to convert
> to a string (for example when doing string concatenation). The variant
> script below:
> 
> on mouseUp
>   set the numberformat to "###.###"
>   put 2.5 + 2.5 into x
>   put x & cr after msg
>   set the numberformat to "000.000"
>   put 2.5 + 2.5 into y
>   put y  after msg
> end mouseUp
> 
> results in:
> 
> 005
> 005.000
> 
> In the message box. Just another data point for the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

On 4/5/2017 7:42 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
> On 4/5/17 5:48 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Jacque wrote:
>>
>>> HyperCard distinguished between "#" and "0" and produced different
>>> results. It sounds like LC doesn't?
>>
>> Confirmed - running this script in v9dp6 and again all the way back in
>> v6.0:
>>
>> on mouseUp
>>set the numberformat to "###.###"
>>put 2.5 + 2.5 into x
>>set the numberformat to "000.000"
>>put 2.5 + 2.5 into y
>>put x & y
>> end mouseUp
>>
>> ...I get:
>>
>> 005.000
>> 005.000

NumberFormat on applies when the number is output or forced to convert
to a string (for example when doing string concatenation). The variant
script below:

on mouseUp
   set the numberformat to "###.###"
   put 2.5 + 2.5 into x
   put x & cr after msg
   set the numberformat to "000.000"
   put 2.5 + 2.5 into y
   put y  after msg
end mouseUp

results in:

005
005.000

In the message box. Just another data point for the discussion.




___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 4/5/17 5:48 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Jacque wrote:


HyperCard distinguished between "#" and "0" and produced different
results. It sounds like LC doesn't?


Confirmed - running this script in v9dp6 and again all the way back in
v6.0:

on mouseUp
   set the numberformat to "###.###"
   put 2.5 + 2.5 into x
   set the numberformat to "000.000"
   put 2.5 + 2.5 into y
   put x & y
end mouseUp

...I get:

005.000
005.000

Where I would have expected:

5.0
005.000

Who wants to file the bug report?



The fact that the dictionary also doesn't discriminate implies it isn't 
a bug, it's intentional, and the hash/zero options are for HC 
compatibility only. I can't remember if MC worked as I would have expected.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Jacque wrote:

> HyperCard distinguished between "#" and "0" and produced different
> results. It sounds like LC doesn't?

Confirmed - running this script in v9dp6 and again all the way back in 
v6.0:


on mouseUp
   set the numberformat to "###.###"
   put 2.5 + 2.5 into x
   set the numberformat to "000.000"
   put 2.5 + 2.5 into y
   put x & y
end mouseUp

...I get:

005.000
005.000

Where I would have expected:

5.0
005.000

Who wants to file the bug report?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 4/5/17 2:07 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

I should say the bit of engine code which does parsing and
application of the numberformat has been left untouched in terms of
what it does for as long as I can remember... It is one of those
places where a subtle change could break apps quite easily as it is
somewhat hard to see precisely what it should and should not do!


HyperCard distinguished between "#" and "0" and produced different 
results. It sounds like LC doesn't?


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Yup. I have thought for a long time that there should be a formatNumber() 
function that did almost exactly what Excel does in terms of formatting a 
number. I will have to look into that. I'll post it if I throw one together. 
Should be easy given the string operations LC is capable of.

Bob S


On Apr 5, 2017, at 12:07 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
> wrote:

I should say the bit of engine code which does parsing and application of the 
numberformat has been left untouched in terms of what it does for as long as I 
can remember... It is one of those places where a subtle change could break 
apps quite easily as it is somewhat hard to see precisely what it should and 
should not do!

Mark

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

I should say the bit of engine code which does parsing and application of the 
numberformat has been left untouched in terms of what it does for as long as I 
can remember... It is one of those places where a subtle change could break 
apps quite easily as it is somewhat hard to see precisely what it should and 
should not do!

Mark

Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 Apr 2017, at 19:56, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> On 2017-04-05 20:28, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:
>> And here is an oddity again. In the dictionary, there is no mention of
>> spaces or any other character besides "0.#" being valid in a
>> numberformat string, but:
>> set the numberformat to " 00";put -09+0 & ":" & 00+0 & ":" & 00+0
>> produces -09:000:000
>> In fact, you can put ANYTHING in place of a 0, and it will treat it as
>> though it were a 0!
>> Wha???
> 
> I think the numberFormat is perhaps just appearing to do more than it 
> actually does. Basically it allows you to set the field width before and 
> after a decimal point. So:
> 
>  set the numberFormat to "."
> 
> Will result in the engine padding either side of the decimal point up to the 
> specified number of chars with 0 if the length of that part is less than the 
> specified width.
> 
> Whether or not the '-' sign should be included in these width calculations I 
> guess is a matter of debate...
> 
> Warmest Regards,
> 
> Mark.
> 
> P.S. Apologies for missing your actual point before, I should have read the 
> thread in more detail before posting ;)
> 
> -- 
> Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
> LiveCode: Everyone can create apps
> 
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-04-05 20:28, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

And here is an oddity again. In the dictionary, there is no mention of
spaces or any other character besides "0.#" being valid in a
numberformat string, but:

set the numberformat to " 00";put -09+0 & ":" & 00+0 & ":" & 00+0

produces -09:000:000

In fact, you can put ANYTHING in place of a 0, and it will treat it as
though it were a 0!

Wha???


I think the numberFormat is perhaps just appearing to do more than it 
actually does. Basically it allows you to set the field width before and 
after a decimal point. So:


  set the numberFormat to "."

Will result in the engine padding either side of the decimal point up to 
the specified number of chars with 0 if the length of that part is less 
than the specified width.


Whether or not the '-' sign should be included in these width 
calculations I guess is a matter of debate...


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

P.S. Apologies for missing your actual point before, I should have read 
the thread in more detail before posting ;)


--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

And here is an oddity again. In the dictionary, there is no mention of spaces 
or any other character besides "0.#" being valid in a numberformat string, but:

set the numberformat to " 00";put -09+0 & ":" & 00+0 & ":" & 00+0

produces -09:000:000

In fact, you can put ANYTHING in place of a 0, and it will treat it as though 
it were a 0! 

Wha???

Bob S



___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

That was my point, that the sign should not take up one of the digits in 
numberformat 00. And thank you for your explanation about strings being strings 
until math was done on them. In my timeCalc() function however, I already 
convery everything to seconds and just before conatenating HH, MM and SS, I add 
0 to each one. 

set the numberformat to "00"
return tTotalHours +0 & ":" & tTotalMinutes +0 & ":" & tTotalSeconds +0

If tTotalHours is negative I get -H if it is less than 10. Like I said it's not 
a big deal. I can always work around it. 

Bob S


> On Apr 5, 2017, at 10:21 , Mark Waddingham via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> It looks odd, but is explainable. It has nothing to do with '-' eating up
> places for 0 in the numberFormat, but to do with the type of things in
> that expression:


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-04-05 19:21, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:
The latter bit about 'not being able to do arithmetic' might sound odd 
but it is

a reflection of the finiteness of computers.


Just correcting myself: 'finiteness of computers' was the wrong thing to 
say
here - if you can represent a number as a decimal string in a computer 
then it

is clearly finite as the amount of memory you have is finite.

Therefore, it is more about 'needing to do arithmetic quickly on 
computers'

(for some definition of 'quickly').

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-04-03 19:11, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Was anyone aware that the sign takes up one of the digital in number
format? For instance,

set the numberformat to "00";put -1 +0 & ":" & 0 +0 & ":" & 0 +0
returns:
-1:00:00

but
set the numberformat to "00";put -12 +0 & ":" & 0 +0 & ":" & 0 +0
returns:
-12:00:00

Does no one else find that odd??


It looks odd, but is explainable. It has nothing to do with '-' eating 
up

places for 0 in the numberFormat, but to do with the type of things in
that expression:

Contrast:

set the numberformat to "00";put 0+0 & ":" & 0+0 & ":" & 0+0
  => 00:00:00

And:

set the numberformat to "00";put 0 & ":" & 0 & ":" & 0
  => 0:0:0

The reason here is that the token 0 in a script is actually treated as a 
string *until*
you do something to it which turns it into a number. Only numbers are 
subject to

numberFormat.

So, in the first case you are doing:

  put NUMBER & ":" & NUMBER & ":" & NUMBER

In the second case you are doing:

  put STRING & ":" & STRING & ":" & STRING

The & operator requires two strings, so in the first case the NUMBERs 
are being
converted to strings (and thus subject to numberFormat) whereas in the 
second

case they are already STRINGs so no conversion takes place.

I class this as an anomaly.

The correction would be that any token in script which *looks* like a 
number should
act like a number in terms of string conversion rules (including the 
application of

numberFormat), even if it can't be represented exactly as a number.

This rule would mean that as long as you don't attempt to do arithmetic 
on something

which looks like a number, how it looks will be preserved.

The latter bit about 'not being able to do arithmetic' might sound odd 
but it is

a reflection of the finiteness of computers.

For example, the engine currently uses IEEE doubles for all its 
arithmetic. Whilst
such things can represent a very large number of numbers (2^60 different 
values or
near enough), the actual range a double can represent is substantially 
bigger (many
orders of magnitude bigger, in fact - something like -10^300 to 
+10^300). This results
in there being many many string representations which map to the same 
double (for example

0 can be written as 0, 0.0, 0.00, 0.000, ...).

Indeed, doubles only have about 15 digits of decimal precision, meaning 
that if your
actual number has more than 15 non-zero digits before or after a lot of 
0's then
you'll get an approximation to the actual number (well, you'll get a 
number which is
within DBL_EPSILON of the real number, anyway - this kind of stuff gets 
pernickety very

very quickly).

In actual fact, the above rule can be extended further - and perhaps 
expressed more

succinctly as:

  If a string is converted to a number, then the actual conversion 
should not

  occur until it is absolutely needed.

The point here is that formatting a (decimal) string representation of a 
number
via numberFormat does not actually require conversion to an actual 
number - it can
be done using the string representation alone - and doing it that way 
would mean
that numbers would be preserved to look exactly as they did unless you 
actual poke

them with arithmetic.

Of course, you might argue that 'whats the point of numbers if you don't 
do
arithmetic on them' - but it is often the case that our programs 
manipulate
numbers without doing anything to them, we just need to know that 'they 
are

numbers'.

A good example is the json importers/exporters which exist. They do
zero arithmetic - they merely import and export existing data. In that 
case it
is very important that the data is preserved *as is* otherwise you can't 
roundtrip

(i.e. import data, and immediately export without changing anything).

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

 Never mind. 

Bob S


> On Apr 4, 2017, at 13:12 , hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
 Bob S. wrote:
 You should rather say the number format determines the num of DIGITS. 
>>> hh wrote: 
>>> That's what you wish to have (good idea). But it's not like that, its 
>>> the length of the number as string. 
>> Bob S. wrote
>> Really? Then why does :
>> set the numberformat to 0.0; put -.1 + 0 result in -0.1 ?  
> 
> You are mixing input methods and output methods.
> 
> "-.x" (or ".x") is allowed as input, but then converted to
> "-0.x" (or "0.x"). Just the same for "00.x" or "-00.x"
> 
> *After* that the numberformat is applied (and doesn't cut if leading is
> longer). That's why
> 
>  set the numberformat to "0.0"
>  put 0-".1", 0+"-0.1", 0+"-00.1" after s -- you may leave out quotes
>  set the numberformat to "00.0"
>  put 0-".1", 0+"-0.1", 0+"-00.1" after s -- you may leave out quotes
> 
> both yield -0.1,-0.1,-0.1 (in LC 6/7/8/9).
> 
> To see more clear the string length is applied to the number:
> You can use _ANY_ other one-byte-char other than the separator (".").
> 
> set the numberformat to "ab.c"
> is equivalent to
> set the numberformat to "00.0"
> 
> This is comfortable if you wish to have the numbers length
> dependent on any string varibale's length:
> 
>  put "Bob.S" into str
>  set the numberformat to str
>  put 0-12 & " _and_ " & 0+13
> 
> yields -12.0 _and_ 013.0, as I said (in LC 6/7/8/9).
> 
> *** Once again, I like and support your idea. ***
> But I suggest to name it a feature request, not a bug:
> 
> Perhaps the option to apply the numberformat to the absolute value
> only and choose/apply a prefix: either +, -, space or empty?
> The empty is for people who distinguish negative and positive nums
> by labels only (debit and credit) or colors only (red and black).
> 
> 
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[hh via use-livecode]

>>> Bob S. wrote:
>>> You should rather say the number format determines the num of DIGITS. 
>> hh wrote: 
>> That's what you wish to have (good idea). But it's not like that, its 
>> the length of the number as string. 
> Bob S. wrote
> Really? Then why does :
> set the numberformat to 0.0; put -.1 + 0 result in -0.1 ?  

You are mixing input methods and output methods.

"-.x" (or ".x") is allowed as input, but then converted to
"-0.x" (or "0.x"). Just the same for "00.x" or "-00.x"

*After* that the numberformat is applied (and doesn't cut if leading is
longer). That's why

  set the numberformat to "0.0"
  put 0-".1", 0+"-0.1", 0+"-00.1" after s -- you may leave out quotes
  set the numberformat to "00.0"
  put 0-".1", 0+"-0.1", 0+"-00.1" after s -- you may leave out quotes

both yield -0.1,-0.1,-0.1 (in LC 6/7/8/9).

To see more clear the string length is applied to the number:
You can use _ANY_ other one-byte-char other than the separator (".").

set the numberformat to "ab.c"
is equivalent to
set the numberformat to "00.0"

This is comfortable if you wish to have the numbers length
dependent on any string varibale's length:

  put "Bob.S" into str
  set the numberformat to str
  put 0-12 & " _and_ " & 0+13

yields -12.0 _and_ 013.0, as I said (in LC 6/7/8/9).

*** Once again, I like and support your idea. ***
But I suggest to name it a feature request, not a bug:

Perhaps the option to apply the numberformat to the absolute value
only and choose/apply a prefix: either +, -, space or empty?
The empty is for people who distinguish negative and positive nums
by labels only (debit and credit) or colors only (red and black).


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Really? Then why does :
set the numberformat to 0.0;put -.1 + 0
result in 
-0.1

?

Bob S


> On Apr 3, 2017, at 16:55 , hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> You should rather say the number format determines the num of DIGITS.
> 
> That's what you wish to have (good idea). But it's not like that, its
> the length of the number as string. 


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[hh via use-livecode]

> Bob S. worte:
> I have a function for calculating the difference in time

Then you mean -(01:00:00) and not (-01):(00):(00), quite different.

AFAIK most languages do such time evaluations as follows
1) compute the time in seconds,
2) convert its absolute value to time format, and
3) if negative, put "-" before the formatted time.
That is, the whole display is not an immediate result of setting the
number format.

> You should rather say the number format determines the num of DIGITS.

That's what you wish to have (good idea). But it's not like that, its
the length of the number as string. You gave the proof yourself.
It's the same with the number formats from format(). Probably LC uses
internally format() for its numberFormat.

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

The time format is irrelevant. It just so happens I have a function for 
calculating the difference in time, and when the first character is a - I know 
the end time is earlier than the start time, which was what I was checking for. 

And I think you are mistaken. numberFormat sets the format for numeric values, 
not just any characters. You should rather say the number format determine the 
num of DIGITS. Signage is an acceptable part of a numeric value. A dollar sign 
or a comma for example are not. 

Still, if everyone expects that set the number format to "00"; return 0-1 
should return -1, well then that's how it should be. 

Bob S


> On Apr 3, 2017, at 15:49 , hh via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> TMHO, this could be a feature request rather than a bug report.
> The zeros in the number format determine the num of characters
> and "-" is one.
> 
> Also we have -0 = 0. So what about "-01:-00:-00" ??


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[hh via use-livecode]

TMHO, this could be a feature request rather than a bug report.
The zeros in the number format determine the num of characters
and "-" is one.

Also we have -0 = 0. So what about "-01:-00:-00" ??

> Bob S. wrote:
> "-01:00:00"?
> Yes I expected this. It's not that I cannot work around it,
> it's just that it seems it ought to put 2 zeros where 2 zeros
> are specified in the numberFormat and if it doesn't and should,
> then I will file an (admittedly low priority) bug report. 


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Yes I expected this. It's not that I cannot work around it, it's just that it 
seems it ought to put 2 zeros where 2 zeros are specified in the numberFormat 
and if it doesn't and should, then I will file an (admittedly low priority) bug 
report. 

Bob S


> On Apr 3, 2017, at 10:16 , dunbarx via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> -01:00:00
> 
> Craig Newman


___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode

Re: Negative Numbers and NumberFormat

[dunbarx via use-livecode]

Hi.

Hmmm.

When you say "...the sign takes up one of the digital " does this make it
better or worse:

   set the numberformat to "00"
   put -1112 +0 & ":" & 0 +0 & ":" & 0 +0 

or going the other way, with your top snippet, did you expect:

-01:00:00

Craig Newman



--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Negative-Numbers-and-NumberFormat-tp4713609p4713610.html
Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
use-livecode mailing list
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
preferences:
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode