RE: LC Roadmap

[Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode]

LC syntax is NOT English, and understanding the difference helps.
That is really true and with LCB you are free to write any functionality.

Not one programming language/development environment is perfect and to be
clear: I like LiveCode very much too!

Nice weekend,
Erik

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode  On Behalf Of
Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
Sent: zaterdag 20 februari 2021 06:06
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
Cc: Curry Kenworthy 
Subject: Re: LC Roadmap


e.beugelaar at me.com:

 > https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.

Thanks for the tip - looks pretty neat. I like the website.
Before going all-in with LiveCode, I did a lot with VB-style code.

HOWEVER, I don't have any big headaches, thank God!
Nor do I feel any need to try another IDE.
On the contrary: I'm enjoying LiveCode more than ever.

I'm fluent in LC syntax, so it comes as naturally as writing an email.
Fluency is underappreciated. Copy-paste coding is an alluring trap.
(LC syntax is NOT English, and understanding the difference helps.)

Being specialized, I have solid dev tactics and stick with what works.
If I take a new path, I run some tests BEFORE going too far.

So things are going well, and will only get better!
I'm also gradually creating next-gen code for my addons and general dev.
And more. Good things are on the way

That said, if I ever decide to have a headache :) it'd probably be:

- Code quality and bug density of LC Engine and Components
- Inconsistency between some LC features versus the overall paradigm

Those have obvious deficiencies, but I've noted them & adjusted tactics.
And I'll be taking action in both areas, so not too worried.

Good luck and good coding!

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: LC Roadmap

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

e.beugelaar at me.com:

> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.

Thanks for the tip - looks pretty neat. I like the website.
Before going all-in with LiveCode, I did a lot with VB-style code.

HOWEVER, I don't have any big headaches, thank God!
Nor do I feel any need to try another IDE.
On the contrary: I'm enjoying LiveCode more than ever.

I'm fluent in LC syntax, so it comes as naturally as writing an email.
Fluency is underappreciated. Copy-paste coding is an alluring trap.
(LC syntax is NOT English, and understanding the difference helps.)

Being specialized, I have solid dev tactics and stick with what works.
If I take a new path, I run some tests BEFORE going too far.

So things are going well, and will only get better!
I'm also gradually creating next-gen code for my addons and general dev.
And more. Good things are on the way

That said, if I ever decide to have a headache :) it'd probably be:

- Code quality and bug density of LC Engine and Components
- Inconsistency between some LC features versus the overall paradigm

Those have obvious deficiencies, but I've noted them & adjusted tactics.
And I'll be taking action in both areas, so not too worried.

Good luck and good coding!

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: LC Roadmap

[prothero--- via use-livecode]

Andre:
I think if your chapters offered several ways of organizing a project, starting 
with beginners, and then discussing the various philosophies, say how to name 
variables, using Levure, setting up MVC, etc, etc.

And you are right to be concerned with how quickly the information gets out of 
date and new capabilities are introduced. When I think of “book”, I think of a 
paper based document that sits on my bookshelf. I think, these days, especially 
with such a dynamic product, new resources are going to be coming out all the 
time and the idea of a “book” that sits on a shelf is going to limit you.

I know I’m probably stating what you already know, but what I know is that your 
writings are first rate and I and others have a lot to learn from them.

BTW, I looked at https://livecloud.io 
Very impressive as an example of livecode going big!

Best,
Bill


> On Feb 17, 2021, at 4:16 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 16 Feb 2021, at 15:26, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> A sample 'skeleton' app - i.e. complete but not fleshed-out. Initially it 
>> would be for a desktop app (the first sequel will cover mobile). It would 
>> implement "good practices" for many of the common features, with enough code 
>> being there to do something - but the focus should be on the architecture 
>> rather than on doing anything useful.
> 
> I released:
> 
> https://andregarzia.com/books/livecode-advanced-application-architecture.html 
> 
> 
> To cover as much of this topic as I felt comfortable doing. The main issue is 
> that different experienced developers have different opinions about what is 
> the best way to organise an app. LiveCode is very versatile and you can do a 
> really great app organisation that is completely different than another great 
> app. We don’t have a mothership preferred way of doing that, and I didn’t 
> want to force my own bias into people.
> 
> I know that some people are deriving great value from Levure, others prefer 
> using something else. It is a tricky topic to cover because once you release 
> such book, you’re kinda telling all newcomers that the way described in the 
> book is the best way to do it. For example, if I went ahead and added a way 
> of doing all that without Levure, then some people would think that Levure is 
> useless because the only book we have tells you do use something different; 
> if I used Levure, then people would think that if you’re not using it, you’re 
> doing it wrong.
> 
> That is way I stayed into safe topics in that book, I covered stuff that 
> should be applicable to many ways of organising your code. Still, I really 
> think you’ve surfaced an important vacuum in our community, we lack good and 
> documented skeleton apps. The main challenge here is the wording on the 
> e-book, it should be clear that there are other equality valid ways of doing 
> things, and that is OK to tweak the presented approach or even come up with 
> your own.
> 
> Since a lot of this work would involve manipulating stacks and their 
> properties, I suspect that this would work better as a multimedia product 
> with videos and articles.
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William A. Prothero, Ph.D.
University of California, Santa Barbara Dept. of Earth Sciences (Emeritus)
Santa Barbara, CA. 93105
http://earthlearningsolutions.org/

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Re: LC Roadmap

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I found your approach to publish and subscribe incredibly useful. I have an app 
that has data grids in multiple sub stacks that each can be open or no. Many of 
these data grids display data from the same database table but in different sub 
stacks.

For example, I have a devices and an accessories table. One sub stack is for 
maintaining the devices at a particular site, another is for maintaining the 
accessories attached to a given device. There is a devices data grid on both of 
these.

The quandary is how to reliably tell all open sub stacks with data grids 
containing identical table data to update when any of the others are updated. 
Your Publish and Subscribe method is tailor made for such a scenario. I am in 
the process of converting all my data grid code over to using that.

Bob S


On Feb 17, 2021, at 4:16 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:


On 16 Feb 2021, at 15:26, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

A sample 'skeleton' app - i.e. complete but not fleshed-out. Initially it would 
be for a desktop app (the first sequel will cover mobile). It would implement 
"good practices" for many of the common features, with enough code being there 
to do something - but the focus should be on the architecture rather than on 
doing anything useful.

I released:

https://andregarzia.com/books/livecode-advanced-application-architecture.html

To cover as much of this topic as I felt comfortable doing. The main issue is 
that different experienced developers have different opinions about what is the 
best way to organise an app. LiveCode is very versatile and you can do a really 
great app organisation that is completely different than another great app. We 
don’t have a mothership preferred way of doing that, and I didn’t want to force 
my own bias into people.


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Re: LC Roadmap

[Andrew at MidWest Coast Media via use-livecode]

This is an excellent idea. Provide the basic skeleton, but then demo a couple 
completed concepts as well to show what could be done. I would be willing to 
collaborate to make a finished example and document the process.

LiveCode is extremely powerful, but as others have noted some of these advanced 
features tend to roam from the “simple English” syntax. A little sample content 
goes a long way. You still need a paid version of LC to get iOS deployment, at 
least Community Plus: it seems like a starter stub project could pay for itself 
in subscription fees.

—Andrew Bell

> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 15:26:49 +
> From: Alex Tweedly 
> To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Subject: Re: LC Roadmap
> 
> On 15/02/2021 12:55, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
>> It is with this in mind, that I decided to create content for our 
>> community. Books are an easy value proposition. Most of our community 
>> is beyond their thirties and have a fondness (and experience) for the 
>> written word and documentation. It is easy to sell books here, way 
>> easier than in other communities which are younger and prefer videos. 
>> That doesn?t mean that I can?t provide videos as well, damn I?ve 
>> graduated with a BA in filmmaking, I?m geared to start filming too. 
>> Books were the first step. I see myself more as a storyteller than a 
>> developer, that is why I want to focus on content for my own career 
>> moving forward. But that is only my own personal journey, other people 
>> here have a different path. I just wish that more people here decide 
>> to share their knowledge (and code) so that we can become a more 
>> vibrant community. 
> 
> Then I have a concrete suggestion for what would, I think, be a very 
> useful e-book + stack.
> 
> A sample 'skeleton' app - i.e. complete but not fleshed-out. Initially 
> it would be for a desktop app (the first sequel will cover mobile). It 
> would implement "good practices" for many of the common features, with 
> enough code being there to do something - but the focus should be on the 
> architecture rather than on doing anything useful.
> 
> It should include (most of):
> 
> ?- splash stack, with checks for updated versions, background 
> downloading & installing them, etc.
> 
> ?- proper locations for libraries, prefs files, other config data, 
> other data, etc. as well as loading the libraries.
> 
> ?- simple preferences handling (i.e. library which will store, retrieve 
> and allow basic user interaction to view/update preferences - given some 
> description of the preferences)
> 
> ?- a menu, ready to extend or remove, with abstraction of the functionality
> 
> ?- maybe a status bar
> 
> ?- some groups that handle resizing well
> 
> ?- multiple cards should be involved
> 
> ?- probably simple SQL (i.e. sqlite + your DBLib)
> 
> And of course the most difficult part will be writing the e-book that 
> describes the app, what it does, and maybe why those particular methods 
> were chosen over some of the alternatives.
> 
> Then the sequel would cover mobile, so adding features like a Header 
> Bar, segmented control, using library to overlay controls with native 
> controls as needed, ... as well as describing the hoops one needs to 
> jump through to actually do mobile developments.
> 
> Further sequels could then cover additional features - again for 
> architecture and example, not just to make it a more complicated app. 
> For example: toolbar, pane splitter, data grid, ...
> 
> Alex.
> 
> P.S. I'd be happy to collaborate on doing the development part - but I 
> suspect you'd be quicker without me :-)
> 
> P.P.S title suggestion "The Soul of a New App".
> 


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Re: LC Roadmap

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

> On 16 Feb 2021, at 15:26, Alex Tweedly via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> A sample 'skeleton' app - i.e. complete but not fleshed-out. Initially it 
> would be for a desktop app (the first sequel will cover mobile). It would 
> implement "good practices" for many of the common features, with enough code 
> being there to do something - but the focus should be on the architecture 
> rather than on doing anything useful.

I released:

https://andregarzia.com/books/livecode-advanced-application-architecture.html 


To cover as much of this topic as I felt comfortable doing. The main issue is 
that different experienced developers have different opinions about what is the 
best way to organise an app. LiveCode is very versatile and you can do a really 
great app organisation that is completely different than another great app. We 
don’t have a mothership preferred way of doing that, and I didn’t want to force 
my own bias into people.

I know that some people are deriving great value from Levure, others prefer 
using something else. It is a tricky topic to cover because once you release 
such book, you’re kinda telling all newcomers that the way described in the 
book is the best way to do it. For example, if I went ahead and added a way of 
doing all that without Levure, then some people would think that Levure is 
useless because the only book we have tells you do use something different; if 
I used Levure, then people would think that if you’re not using it, you’re 
doing it wrong.

That is way I stayed into safe topics in that book, I covered stuff that should 
be applicable to many ways of organising your code. Still, I really think 
you’ve surfaced an important vacuum in our community, we lack good and 
documented skeleton apps. The main challenge here is the wording on the e-book, 
it should be clear that there are other equality valid ways of doing things, 
and that is OK to tweak the presented approach or even come up with your own.

Since a lot of this work would involve manipulating stacks and their 
properties, I suspect that this would work better as a multimedia product with 
videos and articles.
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Re: LC Roadmap

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

BIG +

If not for Livecode, I would not be developing at all. I am just grateful that 
there IS a Livecode. I am not a professional developer though, so I understand 
that some have issues with certain things.

Bob S


On Feb 15, 2021, at 4:55 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

LC is a small company regardless of how much we love them. They can’t provide 
solution to all our needs. It is not because they don’t want to, they have 
limited resources. We can’t treat LC as we treat Apple or Microsoft.

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Re: LC Roadmap

[Alex Tweedly via use-livecode]

On 15/02/2021 12:55, Andre Garzia via use-livecode wrote:
It is with this in mind, that I decided to create content for our 
community. Books are an easy value proposition. Most of our community 
is beyond their thirties and have a fondness (and experience) for the 
written word and documentation. It is easy to sell books here, way 
easier than in other communities which are younger and prefer videos. 
That doesn’t mean that I can’t provide videos as well, damn I’ve 
graduated with a BA in filmmaking, I’m geared to start filming too. 
Books were the first step. I see myself more as a storyteller than a 
developer, that is why I want to focus on content for my own career 
moving forward. But that is only my own personal journey, other people 
here have a different path. I just wish that more people here decide 
to share their knowledge (and code) so that we can become a more 
vibrant community. 


Then I have a concrete suggestion for what would, I think, be a very 
useful e-book + stack.


A sample 'skeleton' app - i.e. complete but not fleshed-out. Initially 
it would be for a desktop app (the first sequel will cover mobile). It 
would implement "good practices" for many of the common features, with 
enough code being there to do something - but the focus should be on the 
architecture rather than on doing anything useful.


It should include (most of):

 - splash stack, with checks for updated versions, background 
downloading & installing them, etc.


 - proper locations for libraries, prefs files, other config data, 
other data, etc. as well as loading the libraries.


 - simple preferences handling (i.e. library which will store, retrieve 
and allow basic user interaction to view/update preferences - given some 
description of the preferences)


 - a menu, ready to extend or remove, with abstraction of the functionality

 - maybe a status bar

 - some groups that handle resizing well

 - multiple cards should be involved

 - probably simple SQL (i.e. sqlite + your DBLib)

And of course the most difficult part will be writing the e-book that 
describes the app, what it does, and maybe why those particular methods 
were chosen over some of the alternatives.


Then the sequel would cover mobile, so adding features like a Header 
Bar, segmented control, using library to overlay controls with native 
controls as needed, ... as well as describing the hoops one needs to 
jump through to actually do mobile developments.


Further sequels could then cover additional features - again for 
architecture and example, not just to make it a more complicated app. 
For example: toolbar, pane splitter, data grid, ...


Alex.

P.S. I'd be happy to collaborate on doing the development part - but I 
suspect you'd be quicker without me :-)


P.P.S title suggestion "The Soul of a New App".



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Re: LC Roadmap

[scott--- via use-livecode]

One-click-wonder is right… especially if you use DropDMG to create custom disk 
images!
--
Scott Morrow

Elementary Software
(Now with 20% less chalk dust!)
web   https://elementarysoftware.com/
email sc...@elementarysoftware.com
booth1-360-734-4701
--

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 3:08 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Initial setup is a bit of a journey because Apple likes to make developers 
> jump through hoops to prove they're worthy. But every subsequent notarization 
> is a one-click wonder.
> 
> On 2/15/21 4:25 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
>> Jacqueline:
>> Thanks. Yes, I have it. Haven’t tried it yet. But I’ve downloaded it.
>> Best,
>> Bill
>>> On Feb 15, 2021, at 1:35 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Do you use his notarization stack? Once you get it set up it's a huge 
>>> time-saver. No more Terminal commands.
>>> 
>>> On 2/15/21 2:21 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
 Codesigning is always a trudge for me because I don’t do it very often and 
 Apple is regularly changing the parameters. So I also very much appreciate 
 Matthias’ lesson.
 Thanks from me too!
 Bill
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
>>> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your 
>>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> William Prothero
>> waproth...@gmail.com
>> ___
>> use-livecode mailing list
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>> preferences:
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
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Re: LC Roadmap

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Initial setup is a bit of a journey because Apple likes to make developers jump through hoops 
to prove they're worthy. But every subsequent notarization is a one-click wonder.


On 2/15/21 4:25 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:

Jacqueline:
Thanks. Yes, I have it. Haven’t tried it yet. But I’ve downloaded it.
Best,
Bill



On Feb 15, 2021, at 1:35 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Do you use his notarization stack? Once you get it set up it's a huge 
time-saver. No more Terminal commands.

On 2/15/21 2:21 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:

Codesigning is always a trudge for me because I don’t do it very often and 
Apple is regularly changing the parameters. So I also very much appreciate 
Matthias’ lesson.
Thanks from me too!
Bill



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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William Prothero
waproth...@gmail.com




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--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: LC Roadmap

[William Prothero via use-livecode]

Jacqueline:
Thanks. Yes, I have it. Haven’t tried it yet. But I’ve downloaded it.
Best,
Bill


> On Feb 15, 2021, at 1:35 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Do you use his notarization stack? Once you get it set up it's a huge 
> time-saver. No more Terminal commands.
> 
> On 2/15/21 2:21 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:
>> Codesigning is always a trudge for me because I don’t do it very often and 
>> Apple is regularly changing the parameters. So I also very much appreciate 
>> Matthias’ lesson.
>> Thanks from me too!
>> Bill
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
> 
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William Prothero
waproth...@gmail.com




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Re: LC Roadmap

[Jim Lambert via use-livecode]

> Andre wrote:
> 
> LC is a small company regardless of how much we love them. They can't provide 
> solution to all our needs. It is not because they don't want to, they have 
> limited resources. We can't treat LC as we treat Apple or Microsoft. 

So true. I absolutely marvel at how much the LiveCode Team have accomplished 
and are able to accomplish at their size and budget. I'm grateful for that.

It helps to remember a map is not a journey. Journeys very often diverge from 
the planned map route. See the sad story of TechTV's James Kim.

Jim Lambert
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Re: LC Roadmap

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Do you use his notarization stack? Once you get it set up it's a huge time-saver. No more 
Terminal commands.


On 2/15/21 2:21 PM, William Prothero via use-livecode wrote:

Codesigning is always a trudge for me because I don’t do it very often and 
Apple is regularly changing the parameters. So I also very much appreciate 
Matthias’ lesson.
Thanks from me too!
Bill



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: LC Roadmap

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

I agree, the lesson is fantastic. I was just there minutes ago helping a client set up his 
stack. And now we have entitlements added; that's new and much appreciated. Matthias put a lot 
of work into that lesson. We use it for every new Mac release.


On 2/15/21 1:32 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode wrote:

I definitely owe an apology to Matthias Rebbe for not recognizing his 
outstanding lesson “Codesigning and notarizing your LC standalone for 
distribution outside the Mac Appstore- “, including the fact of the recent 
update of Feb 9th. The amount of work involved in creating this lesson is 
mind-boggling to me.

Thank you, Matthias!!

Roger


On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:01 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
 wrote:

I just noticed that the "Codesigning and Notarizing your LC Standalone etc” 
lesson was updated on Feb 9, 2021. Perhaps I misrepresented the real situation in my 
previous post.

Roger



On Feb 14, 2021, at 2:35 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Well, permit me to chime in here with full knowledge that I may be out of date 
with what’s already available.

Arguably the most important feature of LC is its muliplatformness. Recognizing 
that it is a moving target, We/I need and want up to date easy to use lessons 
on how to build standalones for all the platforms. Since it is moving target 
these lessons should have revision cycles with clear up front indication of 
what OS and LC versions are being  used in each lesson. One of the problems I 
encounter is the bewildering platform jargon in existing lessons. I wish more 
simple language could be used to perhaps explain the jargon.

I am an Apple user (not a bigot) and it annoys the hell of me that I can no 
longer build distributable standalones for the Mac. It’s not reasonable to 
expect to change Apple, so we need to make it easier for us LC users. I briefly 
looked at the current lesson for this some time ago and at first glance it 
seemed unnecessarily complicated. I admit I might be me at fault here but here 
we are…

Just trying to help,

Roger


On Feb 14, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:

What do you want to learn?

Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort out 
how they get addressed.



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Re: LC Roadmap

[William Prothero via use-livecode]

Codesigning is always a trudge for me because I don’t do it very often and 
Apple is regularly changing the parameters. So I also very much appreciate 
Matthias’ lesson.
Thanks from me too!
Bill

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 11:32 AM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I definitely owe an apology to Matthias Rebbe for not recognizing his 
> outstanding lesson “Codesigning and notarizing your LC standalone for 
> distribution outside the Mac Appstore- “, including the fact of the recent 
> update of Feb 9th. The amount of work involved in creating this lesson is 
> mind-boggling to me.
> 
> Thank you, Matthias!!
> 
> Roger
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:01 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I just noticed that the "Codesigning and Notarizing your LC Standalone etc” 
>> lesson was updated on Feb 9, 2021. Perhaps I misrepresented the real 
>> situation in my previous post.
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 2:35 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, permit me to chime in here with full knowledge that I may be out of 
>>> date with what’s already available. 
>>> 
>>> Arguably the most important feature of LC is its muliplatformness. 
>>> Recognizing that it is a moving target, We/I need and want up to date easy 
>>> to use lessons on how to build standalones for all the platforms. Since it 
>>> is moving target these lessons should have revision cycles with clear up 
>>> front indication of what OS and LC versions are being  used in each lesson. 
>>> One of the problems I encounter is the bewildering platform jargon in 
>>> existing lessons. I wish more simple language could be used to perhaps 
>>> explain the jargon.
>>> 
>>> I am an Apple user (not a bigot) and it annoys the hell of me that I can no 
>>> longer build distributable standalones for the Mac. It’s not reasonable to 
>>> expect to change Apple, so we need to make it easier for us LC users. I 
>>> briefly looked at the current lesson for this some time ago and at first 
>>> glance it seemed unnecessarily complicated. I admit I might be me at fault 
>>> here but here we are…
>>> 
>>> Just trying to help,
>>> 
>>> Roger
>>> 
 On Feb 14, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
  wrote:
 
 What do you want to learn?
 
 Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort 
 out how they get addressed.
 
>>> 
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>>> subscription preferences:
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William Prothero
waproth...@gmail.com




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Re: LC Roadmap

[Roger Guay via use-livecode]

I definitely owe an apology to Matthias Rebbe for not recognizing his 
outstanding lesson “Codesigning and notarizing your LC standalone for 
distribution outside the Mac Appstore- “, including the fact of the recent 
update of Feb 9th. The amount of work involved in creating this lesson is 
mind-boggling to me.

Thank you, Matthias!!

Roger

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 3:01 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I just noticed that the "Codesigning and Notarizing your LC Standalone etc” 
> lesson was updated on Feb 9, 2021. Perhaps I misrepresented the real 
> situation in my previous post.
> 
> Roger
> 
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 2:35 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Well, permit me to chime in here with full knowledge that I may be out of 
>> date with what’s already available. 
>> 
>> Arguably the most important feature of LC is its muliplatformness. 
>> Recognizing that it is a moving target, We/I need and want up to date easy 
>> to use lessons on how to build standalones for all the platforms. Since it 
>> is moving target these lessons should have revision cycles with clear up 
>> front indication of what OS and LC versions are being  used in each lesson. 
>> One of the problems I encounter is the bewildering platform jargon in 
>> existing lessons. I wish more simple language could be used to perhaps 
>> explain the jargon.
>> 
>> I am an Apple user (not a bigot) and it annoys the hell of me that I can no 
>> longer build distributable standalones for the Mac. It’s not reasonable to 
>> expect to change Apple, so we need to make it easier for us LC users. I 
>> briefly looked at the current lesson for this some time ago and at first 
>> glance it seemed unnecessarily complicated. I admit I might be me at fault 
>> here but here we are…
>> 
>> Just trying to help,
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What do you want to learn?
>>> 
>>> Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort 
>>> out how they get addressed.
>>> 
>> 
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
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Re: LC Roadmap

[ELS Prothero via use-livecode]

Great to hear Andre’s input!

One point I hoped to make is that there is also a possibility of monetizing a 
help site that is created outside the mothership but coordinates and supports 
it. I think this kind of resource would be a significant investment and it is 
unrealistic to expect that the community will do this for free. Frankly, from 
others’ comments, it seems that there is a lot of room for additional support 
and marketing. Think of a combination of short tutorials backed by downloadable 
samples of what was presented on video. These could be backed up with more 
in-depth lessons at a small charge. The purpose of a short video would be dual. 
One for showing how to do something and second for advertising how easy it is 
to do some things with Livecode. What if there was a link to LC subscriptions 
and the mothership would pay a royalty to the site owner/manager?

LC is a great deal, with a free version available for newbies. There are 
opportunities, I think.

Folks, please forgive me if I am overly promoting this idea. I’m an idea 
person, retired, and have no spare time to put a lot of energy into creating 
something like this. But many of you make your living from Livecode and these 
ideas could be mutually beneficial. I am invested in Livecode and would love to 
see it get more exposure and adoption. It’s a great product!

Best,
Bill Prothero

William Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org

> On Feb 15, 2021, at 4:56 AM, Andre Garzia via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks, 
> 
> 
>> On 15 Feb 2021, at 01:46, William Prothero via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Andre Garza’s post about his planning to write a book on some aspect of 
>> Livecode programming got me thinking about this. First, I think writing 
>> books is useful, but the way many busy folks access information on the 
>> internet is in more as smaller more targeted bites. I play jazz keyboard. A 
>> couple of years ago, I subscribed to a site that gave me access to jazz song 
>> sheet music included in video lessons lasting 30-60 minutes each. At the 
>> same time, from a couple other  authors, I got regular (about once a week) 
>> emails with short free improv techniques that took me 5-10 minutes to read, 
>> but with offers (at a cost) that include more in-depth lessons. I find that 
>> I use the short lessons a lot and the longer lessons, that I have already 
>> paid for with my one year subscription, very little if at all. Perhaps I’m 
>> unusual with a very short attention span, but I suspect I'm more typical. 
>> I’m suggesting that there are unused marketing and support strategies that 
>> could be beneficial to the Livecode enterprise. Check out the macmost site 
>> to see what I’m talking about.
> 
> I had a great conversation with Richard about this couple weeks ago. We 
> definitely feel that there is a need for more content in our community. In my 
> own personal and subjective opinion, a real problem with have in LiveCode 
> community is that the UX of the website is really bad. The site is quite 
> pretty, but things that are useful for LC developers are hard to find. Let me 
> illustrate that with an example:
> 
> Suppose you want to check some API related thing. You go to the website, 
> click “Docs” on the top menu and you’re dropped in a firehose of introductory 
> information. That is all great, but where is the online dictionary? How you 
> can go from there to finding out about a specific command or function? It is 
> not there. The easiest way to get to the dictionary is to go back to the main 
> home page, scroll all the way to the bottom and get the dictionary link in 
> the footer.
> 
> The content is there, but the navigation around that content is bad. The new 
> HTML-based dictionary in the IDE is dead slow and has other UX issues such as 
> what happens when you press the ENTER/RETURN key in the search field (go 
> ahead, try it).
> 
> LC is a small company regardless of how much we love them. They can’t provide 
> solution to all our needs. It is not because they don’t want to, they have 
> limited resources. We can’t treat LC as we treat Apple or Microsoft. I won’t 
> dive into the sheer scale of the difference between those entities. We can’t 
> compare it with some hugely popular FOSS programming language project such as 
> Python. We tend to think that because it is FOSS that it is all done for free 
> by a small group of people, it is very easy to fall into the fallacy of 
> saying: “look at what those people can achieve for free!”. It is not free and 
> their institutional and enterprise backers provide funding and full-time 
> employees that are beyond what LC can sum up.
> 
> Does that mean that LC has no place? Of course not, even with all those large 
> entities competing in a similar space, LiveCode still a fantastic tool and in 
> my own opinion, provides unrivalled productivity. 
> 
> What I’m saying is that we spend too much time focused into comparing LC with 
> other stuff, 

Re: LC Roadmap

[Andre Garzia via use-livecode]

Hi Folks, 


> On 15 Feb 2021, at 01:46, William Prothero via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Andre Garza’s post about his planning to write a book on some aspect of 
> Livecode programming got me thinking about this. First, I think writing books 
> is useful, but the way many busy folks access information on the internet is 
> in more as smaller more targeted bites. I play jazz keyboard. A couple of 
> years ago, I subscribed to a site that gave me access to jazz song sheet 
> music included in video lessons lasting 30-60 minutes each. At the same time, 
> from a couple other  authors, I got regular (about once a week) emails with 
> short free improv techniques that took me 5-10 minutes to read, but with 
> offers (at a cost) that include more in-depth lessons. I find that I use the 
> short lessons a lot and the longer lessons, that I have already paid for with 
> my one year subscription, very little if at all. Perhaps I’m unusual with a 
> very short attention span, but I suspect I'm more typical. I’m suggesting 
> that there are unused marketing and support strategies that could be 
> beneficial to the Livecode enterprise. Check out the macmost site to see what 
> I’m talking about.

I had a great conversation with Richard about this couple weeks ago. We 
definitely feel that there is a need for more content in our community. In my 
own personal and subjective opinion, a real problem with have in LiveCode 
community is that the UX of the website is really bad. The site is quite 
pretty, but things that are useful for LC developers are hard to find. Let me 
illustrate that with an example:

Suppose you want to check some API related thing. You go to the website, click 
“Docs” on the top menu and you’re dropped in a firehose of introductory 
information. That is all great, but where is the online dictionary? How you can 
go from there to finding out about a specific command or function? It is not 
there. The easiest way to get to the dictionary is to go back to the main home 
page, scroll all the way to the bottom and get the dictionary link in the 
footer.

The content is there, but the navigation around that content is bad. The new 
HTML-based dictionary in the IDE is dead slow and has other UX issues such as 
what happens when you press the ENTER/RETURN key in the search field (go ahead, 
try it).

LC is a small company regardless of how much we love them. They can’t provide 
solution to all our needs. It is not because they don’t want to, they have 
limited resources. We can’t treat LC as we treat Apple or Microsoft. I won’t 
dive into the sheer scale of the difference between those entities. We can’t 
compare it with some hugely popular FOSS programming language project such as 
Python. We tend to think that because it is FOSS that it is all done for free 
by a small group of people, it is very easy to fall into the fallacy of saying: 
“look at what those people can achieve for free!”. It is not free and their 
institutional and enterprise backers provide funding and full-time employees 
that are beyond what LC can sum up.

Does that mean that LC has no place? Of course not, even with all those large 
entities competing in a similar space, LiveCode still a fantastic tool and in 
my own opinion, provides unrivalled productivity. 

What I’m saying is that we spend too much time focused into comparing LC with 
other stuff, or complaining about the lack of something. I understand that as 
paying customers we do have expectations and rights. What I want people here to 
understand is that there is no successful programming language community in 
which all resources are provided by a single entity. You need an ecosystem of 
multiple vendors of stuff to make a community. In the case of LiveCode, we need 
people creating and distributing (for a profit or not) libraries, extensions, 
tools, and content.

There is a void to be filled in our community to make it more vibrant and 
useful for ourselves. I know most people here are busy developing their 
products for their clients, but if we don’t at least surface what we’re 
building to one another, then everything becomes too opaque. The practices of 
being a LiveCode developer become a guarded secret, something that you only 
grasp if you stay here long enough and talk to the correct people.

It is with this in mind, that I decided to create content for our community. 
Books are an easy value proposition. Most of our community is beyond their 
thirties and have a fondness (and experience) for the written word and 
documentation. It is easy to sell books here, way easier than in other 
communities which are younger and prefer videos. That doesn’t mean that I can’t 
provide videos as well, damn I’ve graduated with a BA in filmmaking, I’m geared 
to start filming too. Books were the first step. I see myself more as a 
storyteller than a developer, that is why I want to focus on content for my own 
career moving forward. But that is only my own personal journey, 

Re: LC Roadmap

[jbv via use-livecode]

Le 2021-02-14 20:46, William Prothero via use-livecode a écrit :

Jacqueline:
I didn’t know about http://lessons.livecode.com
. Thank you for letting me know of that
resource. It looks very useful and I like the user feedback part.



I find this a bit surprising, because every time I have a doubt about
the syntax of a LC command or function, I go and google "livecode" + the
name of the command/function, and the related LC lesson appears within
the first links of the search results...
And I've been doing that for years...

jbv

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Re: LC Roadmap

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

BTW, I like the idea of putting a reference link to the lessons in the 
"This Week in LiveCode" newsletter. It's an easy thing to do and I think it 
would help.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On February 15, 2021 12:26:30 AM "J. Landman Gay via use-livecode" 
 wrote:



I had to check and the lessons are in fact in both the Help and Resources
menus but they are called Tutorials. Both link to the lessons site. I never
actually looked at those before, I only knew about the lessons from
elsewhere and I always use a bookmark to get there.

Like you, I don't want to go through a long tutorial, I just want to know
the bits that apply to a particular problem I need to solve. The lessons do
that for me. It seems like there should be a different name for the menu
item but I can't think what. "Tutorial" sounds time consuming.

But renaming the menu wouldn't solve the fact that I never actually
explored it. My bad.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On February 14, 2021 7:47:43 PM William Prothero  wrote:


Jacqueline:
I didn’t know about http://lessons.livecode.com
. Thank you for letting me know of that
resource. It looks very useful and I like the user feedback part.

To be clear, it is my intent to stimulate thought toward opportunities, not
to complain.

In a way, my ignorance of the lessons link illustrates my point. Where is
the marketing? Why aren’t these contributions mentioned in the “This Week
In Llivecode” mailing? I am busy with many things other than programming. I
read all of the emails from this list. Yet, I didn’t know about this
compilation. These could be promoted/marketed, not only to potential new
users, but to existing ones.

I think if folks would check out the example site I mentioned, they would
see more what I’m suggesting. http://macmost.com 

Andre Garza’s post about his planning to write a book on some aspect of
Livecode programming got me thinking about this. First, I think writing
books is useful, but the way many busy folks access information on the
internet is in more as smaller more targeted bites. I play jazz keyboard. A
couple of years ago, I subscribed to a site that gave me access to jazz
song sheet music included in video lessons lasting 30-60 minutes each. At
the same time, from a couple other  authors, I got regular (about once a
week) emails with short free improv techniques that took me 5-10 minutes to
read, but with offers (at a cost) that include more in-depth lessons. I
find that I use the short lessons a lot and the longer lessons, that I have
already paid for with my one year subscription, very little if at all.
Perhaps I’m unusual with a very short attention span, but I suspect I'm
more typical. I’m suggesting that there are unused marketing and support
strategies that could be beneficial to the Livecode enterprise. Check out
the macmost site to see what I’m talking about.

Peace to you all and thanks for all the help you have given me in my projects,

Be well,
Bill Prothero




On Feb 14, 2021, at 10:43 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
 wrote:

There is a whole lot more at http://lessons.livecode.com. While these
aren't videos, the amount of info there is impressive and lessons are added
all the time.

Personally I find written instructions much easier to follow and they don't
require me to spend extra time watching a video and needing to
run/pause/run/search for the section I want to review.

The lessons site should be prominently displayed in the Help menu.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On February 14, 2021 11:27:24 AM ELS Prothero via use-livecode
 wrote:


Curry,
Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times,
when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by
enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it
failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed
in FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my
coding to LiveCode.



William Prothero
waproth...@gmail.com





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Re: LC Roadmap

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

I had to check and the lessons are in fact in both the Help and Resources 
menus but they are called Tutorials. Both link to the lessons site. I never 
actually looked at those before, I only knew about the lessons from 
elsewhere and I always use a bookmark to get there.


Like you, I don't want to go through a long tutorial, I just want to know 
the bits that apply to a particular problem I need to solve. The lessons do 
that for me. It seems like there should be a different name for the menu 
item but I can't think what. "Tutorial" sounds time consuming.


But renaming the menu wouldn't solve the fact that I never actually 
explored it. My bad.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On February 14, 2021 7:47:43 PM William Prothero  wrote:


Jacqueline:
I didn’t know about http://lessons.livecode.com 
. Thank you for letting me know of that 
resource. It looks very useful and I like the user feedback part.


To be clear, it is my intent to stimulate thought toward opportunities, not 
to complain.


In a way, my ignorance of the lessons link illustrates my point. Where is 
the marketing? Why aren’t these contributions mentioned in the “This Week 
In Llivecode” mailing? I am busy with many things other than programming. I 
read all of the emails from this list. Yet, I didn’t know about this 
compilation. These could be promoted/marketed, not only to potential new 
users, but to existing ones.


I think if folks would check out the example site I mentioned, they would 
see more what I’m suggesting. http://macmost.com 


Andre Garza’s post about his planning to write a book on some aspect of 
Livecode programming got me thinking about this. First, I think writing 
books is useful, but the way many busy folks access information on the 
internet is in more as smaller more targeted bites. I play jazz keyboard. A 
couple of years ago, I subscribed to a site that gave me access to jazz 
song sheet music included in video lessons lasting 30-60 minutes each. At 
the same time, from a couple other  authors, I got regular (about once a 
week) emails with short free improv techniques that took me 5-10 minutes to 
read, but with offers (at a cost) that include more in-depth lessons. I 
find that I use the short lessons a lot and the longer lessons, that I have 
already paid for with my one year subscription, very little if at all. 
Perhaps I’m unusual with a very short attention span, but I suspect I'm 
more typical. I’m suggesting that there are unused marketing and support 
strategies that could be beneficial to the Livecode enterprise. Check out 
the macmost site to see what I’m talking about.


Peace to you all and thanks for all the help you have given me in my projects,

Be well,
Bill Prothero



On Feb 14, 2021, at 10:43 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
 wrote:


There is a whole lot more at http://lessons.livecode.com. While these 
aren't videos, the amount of info there is impressive and lessons are added 
all the time.


Personally I find written instructions much easier to follow and they don't 
require me to spend extra time watching a video and needing to 
run/pause/run/search for the section I want to review.


The lessons site should be prominently displayed in the Help menu.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On February 14, 2021 11:27:24 AM ELS Prothero via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Curry,
Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, 
when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by 
enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it 
failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed 
in FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my 
coding to LiveCode.




William Prothero
waproth...@gmail.com





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Re: LC Roadmap

[William Prothero via use-livecode]

Jacqueline:
I didn’t know about http://lessons.livecode.com . 
Thank you for letting me know of that resource. It looks very useful and I like 
the user feedback part.

To be clear, it is my intent to stimulate thought toward opportunities, not to 
complain.

In a way, my ignorance of the lessons link illustrates my point. Where is the 
marketing? Why aren’t these contributions mentioned in the “This Week In 
Llivecode” mailing? I am busy with many things other than programming. I read 
all of the emails from this list. Yet, I didn’t know about this compilation. 
These could be promoted/marketed, not only to potential new users, but to 
existing ones. 

I think if folks would check out the example site I mentioned, they would see 
more what I’m suggesting. http://macmost.com 

Andre Garza’s post about his planning to write a book on some aspect of 
Livecode programming got me thinking about this. First, I think writing books 
is useful, but the way many busy folks access information on the internet is in 
more as smaller more targeted bites. I play jazz keyboard. A couple of years 
ago, I subscribed to a site that gave me access to jazz song sheet music 
included in video lessons lasting 30-60 minutes each. At the same time, from a 
couple other  authors, I got regular (about once a week) emails with short free 
improv techniques that took me 5-10 minutes to read, but with offers (at a 
cost) that include more in-depth lessons. I find that I use the short lessons a 
lot and the longer lessons, that I have already paid for with my one year 
subscription, very little if at all. Perhaps I’m unusual with a very short 
attention span, but I suspect I'm more typical. I’m suggesting that there are 
unused marketing and support strategies that could be beneficial to the 
Livecode enterprise. Check out the macmost site to see what I’m talking about.

Peace to you all and thanks for all the help you have given me in my projects,

Be well,
Bill Prothero



> On Feb 14, 2021, at 10:43 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> There is a whole lot more at http://lessons.livecode.com. While these aren't 
> videos, the amount of info there is impressive and lessons are added all the 
> time.
> 
> Personally I find written instructions much easier to follow and they don't 
> require me to spend extra time watching a video and needing to 
> run/pause/run/search for the section I want to review.
> 
> The lessons site should be prominently displayed in the Help menu.
> 
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> On February 14, 2021 11:27:24 AM ELS Prothero via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Curry,
>> Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, 
>> when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by 
>> enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it 
>> failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed in 
>> FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my coding 
>> to LiveCode.
>> 

William Prothero
waproth...@gmail.com



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Re: LC Roadmap

[Roger Guay via use-livecode]

I just noticed that the "Codesigning and Notarizing your LC Standalone etc” 
lesson was updated on Feb 9, 2021. Perhaps I misrepresented the real situation 
in my previous post.

Roger


> On Feb 14, 2021, at 2:35 PM, Roger Guay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well, permit me to chime in here with full knowledge that I may be out of 
> date with what’s already available. 
> 
> Arguably the most important feature of LC is its muliplatformness. 
> Recognizing that it is a moving target, We/I need and want up to date easy to 
> use lessons on how to build standalones for all the platforms. Since it is 
> moving target these lessons should have revision cycles with clear up front 
> indication of what OS and LC versions are being  used in each lesson. One of 
> the problems I encounter is the bewildering platform jargon in existing 
> lessons. I wish more simple language could be used to perhaps explain the 
> jargon.
> 
> I am an Apple user (not a bigot) and it annoys the hell of me that I can no 
> longer build distributable standalones for the Mac. It’s not reasonable to 
> expect to change Apple, so we need to make it easier for us LC users. I 
> briefly looked at the current lesson for this some time ago and at first 
> glance it seemed unnecessarily complicated. I admit I might be me at fault 
> here but here we are…
> 
> Just trying to help,
> 
> Roger
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> What do you want to learn?
>> 
>> Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort out 
>> how they get addressed.
>> 
> 
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Re: LC Roadmap

[Roger Guay via use-livecode]

Well, permit me to chime in here with full knowledge that I may be out of date 
with what’s already available. 

Arguably the most important feature of LC is its muliplatformness. Recognizing 
that it is a moving target, We/I need and want up to date easy to use lessons 
on how to build standalones for all the platforms. Since it is moving target 
these lessons should have revision cycles with clear up front indication of 
what OS and LC versions are being  used in each lesson. One of the problems I 
encounter is the bewildering platform jargon in existing lessons. I wish more 
simple language could be used to perhaps explain the jargon.

I am an Apple user (not a bigot) and it annoys the hell of me that I can no 
longer build distributable standalones for the Mac. It’s not reasonable to 
expect to change Apple, so we need to make it easier for us LC users. I briefly 
looked at the current lesson for this some time ago and at first glance it 
seemed unnecessarily complicated. I admit I might be me at fault here but here 
we are…

Just trying to help,

Roger

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 1:52 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> What do you want to learn?
> 
> Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort out 
> how they get addressed.
> 

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Re: LC Roadmap

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Bill Prothero wrote:

> I would like to see:
> Better help files that go deeper.

If I gave you a thousand pages of deep material but they were unrelated 
to your work, would you read them?


If I gave you ten pages that completely nailed the subject you've been 
grappling with, would you kick in a couple bucks to have them written?


Andre has been writing books on LC, and I talked with him a couple weeks 
ago about possible collaborative efforts, and there are other content 
options beyond LC's Lessons and eBooks...


But the most important question is:

What do you want to learn?

Let's identify topic areas, and then it will become much simpler to sort 
out how they get addressed.


--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems

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Re: LC Roadmap

[Tore Nilsen via use-livecode]

I am currently working as a teacher in an upper secondary school in Norway. I 
teach Computer Science and languages like English and Norwegian. Besides 
working as a teacher for more than 20 years, I have also experience from 
running various businesses. The combination of the two very different, but also 
in some parts, very common experiences, forms the basis of my thoughts on this 
topic.

From being in charge of running a business with about 20 employees and more 
than 100 recurring customers, I have learnt the importance of due diligence in 
all aspects of running the business. Whenever I was about to make a promise to 
a customer, I alone was responsible for making sure I could keep this promise. 
If the job at hand required new tools, I would never commit to the task before 
I actually had said tool at my disposal. Sure enough, I could find vendors who 
would promise to deliver on time, but to me such promises are nothing more than 
a good intention.

I look at the LC Roadmap in very much the same way. As a teacher I think I 
understand why the LC Roadmap is not a reliable tool to use for planning future 
solutions. As a teacher I am supposed to make plans in advance. I should make a 
plan for the whole of the school year, and a plan for each semester, the latter 
more detailed than the first. They are very much like the roadmap or the 
promises from vendors.

In reality these plans are not worth the bytes they occupy on the server. To be 
honest, even the plans I just made for next week and for each lesson next week, 
will fail one way or another. Such is the nature of plans vs. reality. And it 
is not about me or anyone else not caring about fulfilling the promises of the 
plans. It is simply because I am not able to control every variable that will 
affect the work we do.

As developers it should not be difficult for us to understand that a roadmap is 
just an expression of what LC Ltd  hopes to achieve within a given timeframe. 
It should not be considered to be a solid basis for making future promises to 
our customers. If we choose to do so, it would be just as stupid as if I chose 
to press on with my plans for this week, without any consideration to what 
happened in the classroom last week. And the responsibility would be with us, 
not the plans or the roadmaps.

On the question on whether or not the LC Roadmap should be updated, the answer 
is of course, yes. All plans that are outdated should be updated. But the new 
plans should be treated with the same amount of caution as the previous ones. 
Especially so if our livelihood depends on how we treat these roadmaps.

Best regards
Tore Nilsen

> 13. feb. 2021 kl. 13:37 skrev Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
> Jan2021 LC 9.7. However LC9.6.2 is still awaiting an RC3. So it’s just not
> going to happen. My client and I are severely disappointed to see that the
> conference set up for 2022 may be the FIRST LOOK we might see for the HTML5
> upgrade. Actually, disappointed doesn’t even close to cut it. I am
> seriously LIVID! Absolute proof that subscription model for this is
> pointless. It pisses me right off that promise after promise I keep falling
> for this crap. I’m paying something like $400 on top of the original $400
> per year for this kind of service. I CANNOT afford to keep doing this with
> vague empty unfulfilled promises (lies). I KEEP falling for it because the
> likes of others on this forum keep trying to convince me that they have our
> best interests at heart. But keep forgetting that this is BS too.
> 
> Roadmap = careering off a cliff top.  Clean up projected for New York 2022.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 12:16, Richmond via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I've said something to that effect earlier, at which point I was jumped
>> all over.
>> 
>> So, because I don't want to be jumped all over again, and because
>> saying the 'roadmap' needs to be updated will have no effect (didn't the
>> last 3 times),
>> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>> 
>> Love. kisses, and other things,
>> 
>> Richmond.
>> 
>> On 12.02.21 14:12, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>> 
>>> see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
>>> I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Best
>>> 
>>> Klaus
>>> --
>>> Klaus Major
>>> https://www.major-k.de
>>> https://www.major-k.de/bass
>>> kl...@major-k.de
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>> subscription preferences:
>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>> 
>> 
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>> subscription preferences:
>> 

Re: LC Roadmap

[matthias rebbe via use-livecode]

Every Livecoder who is interested in creating lessons or fixing outdated ones  
can ask Livecode Support to get access to the Lessons section. 
Livecode will then create an account and will provide the tools for creating 
the lessons.
At least this was the fact when i asked if i could help.

Regards,

Matthias


> Am 14.02.2021 um 19:57 schrieb prothero--- via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Folks, a bit more:
> Both documentation and marketing are huge tasks and keeping even basic 
> documentation current is a big job. A few years ago, I tried the lessons that 
> were produced by the livecode team to help folks create basic Apple apps. In 
> my view, they were a failure. First, they seemed either buggy or lacked 
> attention to non-specialist assumptions in the presentation, confusing me. 
> They needed to be reviewed and vetted by beginning programmers. Secondly, 
> they quickly became obsolete. Lots of effort for a mediocre showing.
> 
> This is a task where livecoders could contribute with carefully vetted 
> modules, like those in macmost.com <http://macmost.com/>. There would need to 
> be a presentation framework that contributors fit into. Contributions would 
> need to be reviewed (and authored), perhaps by livecoders who have already 
> purchased livecode subscriptions. Coding practices would have to be reviewed 
> and be clean. Purchase fees would be collected by the mothership and 
> distributed to authors. This would benefit the mothership by bringing in new 
> users who would subscribe to the software. There should be user feedback and 
> requests for specific lessons, which a member of the contribution team (all 
> subscribers?) could take on. Lessons would get reviewed by purchasers and 
> authors would also get ratings.
> 
> This project would be best if tightly coupled to the dev team and its 
> control. The justification for giving fees to authors is that it would be 
> enormously to the benefit of the mothership to have this resource, both by 
> supporting existing users and gaining new ones.
> 
> Happy Valentine’s day,
> Every day is “Valentine’s Day” (if your name is Valentine),
> 
> Best,
> Bill Prothero
> 
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:25 AM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Curry,
>> Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, 
>> when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by 
>> enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it 
>> failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed in 
>> FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my coding 
>> to LiveCode.
>> 
>> I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with a 
>> plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile support 
>> has become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and center is: 
>> English like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all I want to 
>> do is write “Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything non-trivial, 
>> you need to delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously helpful at 
>> building user interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with ever changing 
>> security challenges. The help files are great at the most trivial tasks, but 
>> to do beyond can be challenging. That said, I am committed to Livecode and 
>> congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.
>> 
>> I would like to see:
>> Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy 
>> who produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a 
>> modest subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential 
>> clients for this, but what if a small team of live coders created something 
>> like this that would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in 
>> new users and take them to the next level with video, sample projects, and 
>> text materials? Perhaps the mothership could support and advise while user 
>> Fees pass to the authors. Just thinking.
>> 
>> That’s all for now. Valentine’s Day and breakfast beckon.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Bill Prothero
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> William Prothero
>> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
>> 
>>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:30 AM, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.
>>> 
>>> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: use-livecode  on behalf of 
>>> Cu

Re: LC Roadmap

[prothero--- via use-livecode]

Folks, a bit more:
Both documentation and marketing are huge tasks and keeping even basic 
documentation current is a big job. A few years ago, I tried the lessons that 
were produced by the livecode team to help folks create basic Apple apps. In my 
view, they were a failure. First, they seemed either buggy or lacked attention 
to non-specialist assumptions in the presentation, confusing me. They needed to 
be reviewed and vetted by beginning programmers. Secondly, they quickly became 
obsolete. Lots of effort for a mediocre showing.

This is a task where livecoders could contribute with carefully vetted modules, 
like those in macmost.com <http://macmost.com/>. There would need to be a 
presentation framework that contributors fit into. Contributions would need to 
be reviewed (and authored), perhaps by livecoders who have already purchased 
livecode subscriptions. Coding practices would have to be reviewed and be 
clean. Purchase fees would be collected by the mothership and distributed to 
authors. This would benefit the mothership by bringing in new users who would 
subscribe to the software. There should be user feedback and requests for 
specific lessons, which a member of the contribution team (all subscribers?) 
could take on. Lessons would get reviewed by purchasers and authors would also 
get ratings.

This project would be best if tightly coupled to the dev team and its control. 
The justification for giving fees to authors is that it would be enormously to 
the benefit of the mothership to have this resource, both by supporting 
existing users and gaining new ones.

Happy Valentine’s day,
Every day is “Valentine’s Day” (if your name is Valentine),

Best,
Bill Prothero


> On Feb 14, 2021, at 9:25 AM, ELS Prothero via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Curry,
> Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, when 
> I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by 
> enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it 
> failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed in 
> FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my coding 
> to LiveCode.
> 
> I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with a 
> plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile support 
> has become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and center is: 
> English like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all I want to do 
> is write “Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything non-trivial, you 
> need to delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously helpful at building 
> user interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with ever changing security 
> challenges. The help files are great at the most trivial tasks, but to do 
> beyond can be challenging. That said, I am committed to Livecode and 
> congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.
> 
> I would like to see:
> Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy 
> who produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a 
> modest subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential 
> clients for this, but what if a small team of live coders created something 
> like this that would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in new 
> users and take them to the next level with video, sample projects, and text 
> materials? Perhaps the mothership could support and advise while user Fees 
> pass to the authors. Just thinking.
> 
> That’s all for now. Valentine’s Day and breakfast beckon.
> 
> Best,
> Bill Prothero
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> William Prothero
> https://earthlearningsolutions.org
> 
>> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:30 AM, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.
>> 
>> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>> 
>> 
>> From: use-livecode  on behalf of 
>> Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
>> To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
>> Cc: Curry Kenworthy 
>> Subject: Re: LC Roadmap
>> 
>> 
>> JeeJeeStudio:
>> 
>>> I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
>>> lot of bugs are not solved.
>> 
>> True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
>> We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
>> (I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)
>> 
>> I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
>> Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to ach

Re: LC Roadmap

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

There is a whole lot more at http://lessons.livecode.com. While these 
aren't videos, the amount of info there is impressive and lessons are added 
all the time.


Personally I find written instructions much easier to follow and they don't 
require me to spend extra time watching a video and needing to 
run/pause/run/search for the section I want to review.


The lessons site should be prominently displayed in the Help menu.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On February 14, 2021 11:27:24 AM ELS Prothero via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Curry,
Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, 
when I realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by 
enlisting computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it 
failed at cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed 
in FORTRAN, Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my 
coding to LiveCode.


I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with 
a plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile 
support has become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and 
center is: English like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all 
I want to do is write “Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything 
non-trivial, you need to delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously 
helpful at building user interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with 
ever changing security challenges. The help files are great at the most 
trivial tasks, but to do beyond can be challenging. That said, I am 
committed to Livecode and congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.


I would like to see:
Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy 
who produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a 
modest subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential 
clients for this, but what if a small team of live coders created something 
like this that would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in 
new users and take them to the next level with video, sample projects, and 
text materials? Perhaps the mothership could support and advise while user 
Fees pass to the authors. Just thinking.




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Re: LC Roadmap

[ELS Prothero via use-livecode]

 Curry,
Your comments echo some of my experiences with Livecode. In olden times, when I 
realized that I could significantly improve my students’ learning by enlisting 
computers, I began with HyperCard, went to Supercard, and when it failed at 
cross platform, I went to Macromedia Director.  I’ve programmed in FORTRAN, 
Pascal. When Adobe bought and killed Director, I switched my coding to LiveCode.

I still miss Director. It’s animation capabilities and web deployment with a 
plug-in were excellent. Of course, plug-ins are obsolete and mobile support has 
become mandatory. The big selling point that is front and center is: English 
like language. I find that a very weak claim, unless all I want to do is write 
“Hello World” when I click a button. To do anything non-trivial, you need to 
delve into coder world. Yes, it is enormously helpful at building user 
interfaces. Deployment is an enormous pain, with ever changing security 
challenges. The help files are great at the most trivial tasks, but to do 
beyond can be challenging. That said, I am committed to Livecode and 
congratulate the dev team for their accomplishments.

I would like to see:
Better help files that go deeper. Have you seen MacMost.com? This is a guy who 
produces quicky videos for free, and offers more detailed courses for a modest 
subscription fee. I don’t know whether there are enough potential clients for 
this, but what if a small team of live coders created something like this that 
would create modest size youtube videos that both bring in new users and take 
them to the next level with video, sample projects, and text materials? Perhaps 
the mothership could support and advise while user Fees pass to the authors. 
Just thinking.

That’s all for now. Valentine’s Day and breakfast beckon.

Best,
Bill Prothero





William Prothero
https://earthlearningsolutions.org

> On Feb 14, 2021, at 7:30 AM, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.
> 
> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
> 
> 
> From: use-livecode  on behalf of Curry 
> Kenworthy via use-livecode 
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
> To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
> Cc: Curry Kenworthy 
> Subject: Re: LC Roadmap
> 
> 
> JeeJeeStudio:
> 
>> I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
>> lot of bugs are not solved.
> 
> True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
> We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
> (I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)
> 
> I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
> Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
> Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
> (We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)
> 
> Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
> Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.
> 
> Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
> Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
> Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??
> 
> My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
> Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
> Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.
> 
>> Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
>> people to program. But it runs behind future facts.
> 
> Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:
> 
> A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
> B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)
> 
> If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!
> 
> And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
> Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
> LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
> And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.
> 
> LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
> People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
> ("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
> Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.
> 
> I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
> (I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
> The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
> That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.
> 
> That paradigm is why ma

Re: LC Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

I don't want any headaches, but as I develop on Macintosh and Linux B4X 
is no good.


On 14.02.21 17:29, e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode wrote:

https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>


From: use-livecode  on behalf of Curry 
Kenworthy via use-livecode 
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
Cc: Curry Kenworthy 
Subject: Re: LC Roadmap


JeeJeeStudio:

  > I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
  > lot of bugs are not solved.

True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
(I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)

I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
(We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)

Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.

Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??

My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.

  > Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
  > people to program. But it runs behind future facts.

Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:

A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)

If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!

And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.

LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.

I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
(I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.

That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!

Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.

We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.

  > HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..

Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.

  > And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
  > as main language, it's free, it's the future

Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
However, really the future? Maybe not!
End of LC? "Hell no!" :D

(At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)

Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
But also several other factors in play:

2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.

The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.

Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.

Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.

Factor #5 is also big for me. Rem

Re: LC Roadmap

[e.beugelaar--- via use-livecode]

https://www.b4x.com if u dont want headaches.

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>


From: use-livecode  on behalf of Curry 
Kenworthy via use-livecode 
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2021 11:31:47 AM
To: use-livecode@lists.runrev.com 
Cc: Curry Kenworthy 
Subject: Re: LC Roadmap


JeeJeeStudio:

 > I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
 > lot of bugs are not solved.

True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
(I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)

I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
(We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)

Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.

Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??

My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.

 > Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
 > people to program. But it runs behind future facts.

Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:

A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)

If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!

And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.

LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.

I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
(I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.

That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!

Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.

We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.

 > HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..

Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.

 > And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
 > as main language, it's free, it's the future

Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
However, really the future? Maybe not!
End of LC? "Hell no!" :D

(At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)

Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
But also several other factors in play:

2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.

The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.

Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.

Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.

Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.

So do I want to leap into Goo

Re: LC Roadmap

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

JeeJeeStudio:

> I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations,
> lot of bugs are not solved.

True. Would be more accurate with "yet" added; solving bugs is ongoing!
We could also say that many bugs HAVE been solved. Moderate progress.
(I know, having been on the front lines of the bug-reporting battle.)

I attribute bug density to dev strategy during the "Great Refactoring."
Good: Kickstarter project threw money/man-hours at LC to achieve a lot.
Bad: Code quality was mediocre; lots of bugs introduced at that time.
(We are STILL finding and reporting LC 7 and 8 bugs.)

Problem: Digging out from under myriad bugs takes big money/man-hours.
Meanwhile: Platforms, especially Apple and Mobile, are moving targets.

Traditional solution: Use a new campaign, like FM, for cashflow.
Underlying philosophy: Quality = energy/money/time.
Potential weakness: History could repeat itself. New code quality??

My proposed solution: Decrease net bugs with more careful coding.
Underlying philosophy: New code should be good code. (Almost zero-sum.)
Potential weakness: Too late for the Refactoring; only useful from now.

> Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of
> people to program. But it runs behind future facts.

Some truth there too, but it misses a (gigantic) point. In fact, two:

A. A good IDE is not ONLY about features, bugs, and platforms.
B. LC's benefit is not ONLY about being easy to learn. (When it is.)

If that's the only reason you're here, you don't understand LC!

And you're not the only one. Even those at the top have missed it.
Raney failed to see it: He considered MC a stepping stone to C.
LC Ltd also missed part of it: many unique benefits under-promoted.
And the way some features are added CONTRADICTS the LC paradigm.

LiveCode - and the legacy of HyperCard - is not Just Another IDE.
People have usually failed miserably at explaining the magic.
("Easy English-like language?" Way too vague! Also missing the point.)
Too few good analyses, too much parroting weak/transient slogans.

I intend to do a bit myself in that area soon, explaining what HC/LC is.
(I had health/energy problems, thus some detractors, but they'll see!)
The unique strengths of LC paradigm -yes, paradigm- deserve attention.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list.

That paradigm is why many of us are here: not just a handy-dandy tool.
It's a worldview of how to code - which should be updated not discarded.
This paradigm has extreme value; likely more than even LC Ltd realizes.
That's why I'm making it a point to be more active on this list!

Growing the audience again requires understanding/promoting that value.
You can't just swap in any XYZ tool/language for LC. It ain't the same!
Nor is success ONLY about winning the feature and platform arms race.
That, but so much more. Paradigm is key. It has been neglected too long.

We must MAKE THE CASE for LC. Some have tried (thanks!) but not enough.
I feel paradigm is equally important to explain to LC Ltd, as to users.

> HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way..

Not much argument there! Hopefully good things coming.

> And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart
> as main language, it's free, it's the future

Thanks for sharing that. It looks pretty good.
However, really the future? Maybe not!
End of LC? "Hell no!" :D

(At least, if LC Ltd play their hand well.)

Again, there's #1. Paradigm - more on that soon, when I have time.
But also several other factors in play:

2. Current and future tech changes; you ain't seen nothing yet!
3. Mega corp competition; Apple & others will frequently reinvent.
4. Tech giant control; Silicon Valley oversteps, people will push back.
5. Corporations are good at innovation, also good at screwing up.

The control factor might bite Google and Apple soon:
should I build there, when Powers That Be can pull the plug anytime?
Increasingly, the big guys don't follow their own rules; it's arbitrary.

Tip: they just love control, whether visual fashion trends or ideology.
What they encourage one year may become a "sin" the next. (Hi, Apple!)
Very often it's simply dollars and cents; more control means more fees.

Meanwhile, you're at the mercy of their tech whims.
Whatever they think should be the new trend, you must do.
Modern corporate strategy is to reinvent for profit; relentless change.

Factor #5 is also big for me. Remember how Google would "fix" search?
They "fixed" it alright! They killed it; try searching a non-trend.

So do I want to leap into Google's IDE?

Trust them to "fix" software development? To decide what I should do?
To reinvent every 5 minutes if the corporate bottom line demands it?
To see the present and the future more clearly than I do myself?
Bow to their proverbial calf and kiss their toes since they're big?

So incredibly tempting...(not really)...no thanks! :)
I gave them a chance to improve the Internet, and they maimed it.
With that much money 

Re: LC Roadmap

[JeeJeeStudio via use-livecode]

That's why I quit after one year subscription.

I like Livecode a lot, but it has it's limitations, lot of bugs are not 
solved.


Feature requests not implemented although asked by many.

Livecode is great! Don't misunderstand and it learns a lot of people to 
program. But it runs behind future facts.


While other platforms implement dozens of easy things which you can easy 
access, you'll have to hope it will be implemented.


And the same is offered for free. Maybe takes some more effort to learn.

HTML5 is a drag in LC, unusable, to play ok, to really use no way.. 
Better learn html yourself and use PHP or LC-server if you like, and it 
will take about the same amount of time to create it. And have real fast 
loading of your webpage. Visitors are not going to wait so long until 
it's loaded. Maybe ok for internal use on Intranet, but as user then i 
would be even frustrated of the loading times.


So i now made a webpage in PHP/HTML, a bit javascript and Mysql, it's 
for internal use at a company. All info I need I can find online.


And next to it I'm learning Flutter platform with Dart as main language, 
it's free, it's the future, many devs are going that way.


It supports Android, iOs, web and even building an executable for 
Windows is on it's way.


Costs: time.



Next to this, I also do not understand those dozens of emails I get 
begging for money to buy them tickets to New York.


What would that help the language forward except some awareness of that 
it exists?


Thousands of people loose their jobs these days with this Corona shit, 
many companies (read at least 50%) in Netherlands get support money from 
the government to stay alive and else they are broke. Due to all the 
lockdowns.


And here LC is begging for ticket money, I don't see the logic.

__

Op 13-2-2021 om 13:37 schreef Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode:

I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
Jan2021 LC 9.7. However LC9.6.2 is still awaiting an RC3. So it’s just not
going to happen. My client and I are severely disappointed to see that the
conference set up for 2022 may be the FIRST LOOK we might see for the HTML5
upgrade. Actually, disappointed doesn’t even close to cut it. I am
seriously LIVID! Absolute proof that subscription model for this is
pointless. It pisses me right off that promise after promise I keep falling
for this crap. I’m paying something like $400 on top of the original $400
per year for this kind of service. I CANNOT afford to keep doing this with
vague empty unfulfilled promises (lies). I KEEP falling for it because the
likes of others on this forum keep trying to convince me that they have our
best interests at heart. But keep forgetting that this is BS too.

Roadmap = careering off a cliff top.  Clean up projected for New York 2022.



On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 12:16, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


I've said something to that effect earlier, at which point I was jumped
all over.

So, because I don't want to be jumped all over again, and because
saying the 'roadmap' needs to be updated will have no effect (didn't the
last 3 times),
I'm NOT stating what I think.

Love. kisses, and other things,

Richmond.

On 12.02.21 14:12, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

Hi folks,

see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: LC Roadmap

[Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode]

Hi David

It is (a lie) if this has been going on for years...
If they say specifcally it is to be released Jan 2021 in an effort to
prevent me from cancelling my subscription and then find out it's likely
not going to be around till mid 2022, it's a bit much really!

Sean

On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 at 13:25, David V Glasgow via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
>
> > On 13 Feb 2021, at 12:37 pm, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
> > Jan2021 LC 9.7.
>
> Hi Sean,
>
> I think that kind of aspirational statement, particularly in the world of
> software development, is the kind of thing to be really pleased and
> surprised about if it actually happens within 12 months of the estimate. In
> my book it certainly doesn’t qualify as a lie.  To anticipate features for
> a commercial product in development would need  a seriously strong and
> informed insider steer.  No consolation, I appreciate, but if anyone should
> be in a position to understand the particular challenges of software
> development, it must be other developers.
>
> Which kind of reminds me about my last mail…. paying for Windows SuperCard
> and waiting for it to arrive.  I was SO wound up about that.  Weirdly now,
> it is a fond memory.
>
>
> Best Wishes,
> David Glasgow
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: LC Roadmap

[David V Glasgow via use-livecode]

> On 13 Feb 2021, at 12:37 pm, Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
> Jan2021 LC 9.7.

Hi Sean,

I think that kind of aspirational statement, particularly in the world of 
software development, is the kind of thing to be really pleased and surprised 
about if it actually happens within 12 months of the estimate. In my book it 
certainly doesn’t qualify as a lie.  To anticipate features for a commercial 
product in development would need  a seriously strong and informed insider 
steer.  No consolation, I appreciate, but if anyone should be in a position to 
understand the particular challenges of software development, it must be other 
developers.

Which kind of reminds me about my last mail…. paying for Windows SuperCard and 
waiting for it to arrive.  I was SO wound up about that.  Weirdly now, it is a 
fond memory.


Best Wishes,
David Glasgow

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Re: LC Roadmap

[Sean Cole (Pi) via use-livecode]

I was told last year that HTML5 deployment would see upgrades maybe by
Jan2021 LC 9.7. However LC9.6.2 is still awaiting an RC3. So it’s just not
going to happen. My client and I are severely disappointed to see that the
conference set up for 2022 may be the FIRST LOOK we might see for the HTML5
upgrade. Actually, disappointed doesn’t even close to cut it. I am
seriously LIVID! Absolute proof that subscription model for this is
pointless. It pisses me right off that promise after promise I keep falling
for this crap. I’m paying something like $400 on top of the original $400
per year for this kind of service. I CANNOT afford to keep doing this with
vague empty unfulfilled promises (lies). I KEEP falling for it because the
likes of others on this forum keep trying to convince me that they have our
best interests at heart. But keep forgetting that this is BS too.

Roadmap = careering off a cliff top.  Clean up projected for New York 2022.



On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 at 12:16, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I've said something to that effect earlier, at which point I was jumped
> all over.
>
> So, because I don't want to be jumped all over again, and because
> saying the 'roadmap' needs to be updated will have no effect (didn't the
> last 3 times),
> I'm NOT stating what I think.
>
> Love. kisses, and other things,
>
> Richmond.
>
> On 12.02.21 14:12, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
> > I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?
> >
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Klaus
> > --
> > Klaus Major
> > https://www.major-k.de
> > https://www.major-k.de/bass
> > kl...@major-k.de
> >
> >
> > ___
> > use-livecode mailing list
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
>
> ___
> use-livecode mailing list
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
> subscription preferences:
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
-- 
Pi Digital
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Re: LC Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

I've said something to that effect earlier, at which point I was jumped 
all over.


So, because I don't want to be jumped all over again, and because
saying the 'roadmap' needs to be updated will have no effect (didn't the 
last 3 times),

I'm NOT stating what I think.

Love. kisses, and other things,

Richmond.

On 12.02.21 14:12, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:

Hi folks,

see subject -> Last Updated on July 14, 2020
I think it is time to update the roadmap, what do you think?


Best

Klaus
--
Klaus Major
https://www.major-k.de
https://www.major-k.de/bass
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: The Roadmap

[Matthias Rebbe via use-livecode]

Thanks Bernard.

Exactly what I think. Only I could not express it that way in English.

Matthias

Matthias Rebbe

free tools for Livecoders:
InstaMaker 
WinSignMaker Mac 

> Am 30.10.2019 um 17:17 schrieb Bernard Devlin via use-livecode 
> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>>:
> 
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:
> 
>> 
>> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>> 
> 
> Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
> the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
> a decade ago.
> 
> I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
> used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
> sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
> last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
> development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
> an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
> was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).
> 
> Notes used to exist in native clients for OS/2, Windows, MacOS.  IBM
> jettisoned the native clients and moved to running the entire thing inside
> the JVM.  It took IBM about 15 years to move from Notes 7 to Notes 10.
> When I recently downloaded Notes 10 to do some programming on thousands of
> emails (the very thing where Notes should shine) the client crashed
> repeatedly on trying to import the emails.  Bear in mind that Notes even
> has a menu action to import emails from a folder, so importing emails to
> process the text is not even something that requires any programming, it's
> that basic to the product.  Having moved from programming in C with all the
> possible problems with pointers and memory allocation, Notes was moved to a
> language with garbage collection and memory management and still the client
> crashes doing basic things it could do 15 years ago.
> 
> By comparison in the last 10 to 15 years Livecode has added app delivery
> for iOS, Android, Linux, Windows64 and HTML5 to Windows32 and OSX.  That's
> more than IBM ever managed to do and a movement in the opposite direction
> to that taken by IBM.  And as well as doing this Livecode re-architected
> the engine.   IBM's major new feature over the last decade (XPages) looks
> like it is now almost certainly going to be thrown away.  By moving to the
> JVM for the development environment IBM was banking on delivering most
> Notes apps as web apps.
> 
> Obviously the Notes servers do a whole range of things that Livecode
> doesn't do.  But these server-side technologies were mostly in the Notes
> product 15 years ago. Going back 15 years ago and Livecode was at v2.5.
> Remember back then?  The clipboarddata was a new thing.  We didn't have a
> built-in web browser, nor multi-dimensional arrays, nor unicode, nor the
> datagrid, nor behaviors, nor widgets, nor xslt,  nor the enhanced liburl.
> That's just off the top of my head.
> 
> IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
> themselves to their own limited roadmap.  Livecode has successfully moved
> forward with a cross-platform solution when IBM couldn't do so.  And
> without having $billions to play with.  They shouldn't attempt to hold to a
> roadmap when the elephant in the room can't do it.  And IBM never allowed
> businesses to use Notes for free nor did they open the source code.
> Livecode did that and has a free edition which contains probably 99% of the
> functionality of the most expensive license.
> 
> I think many of us lose sight of this small company's achievements.
> 
> Regards, Bernard
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
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> 

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Re: The Roadmap

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

+1

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 09:17 , Bernard Devlin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>> 
> 
> Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
> the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
> a decade ago.
> 
> I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
> used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
> sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
> last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
> development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
> an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
> was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).

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Re: The Roadmap

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/30/19 9:17 AM, Bernard Devlin via use-livecode wrote:


IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
themselves to their own limited roadmap.


...and now IBM has  bought RedHat.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: The Roadmap

[Bernard Devlin via use-livecode]

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 7:00 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>

 Whatever frustrations I have with Livecode they are vastly outweighed by
the things that it can do and the things it can do now that it couldn't do
a decade ago.

I don't think people appreciate what an incredible achievement it is.  As I
used to be a Lotus Notes developer, I can see the contrast.  IBM recently
sold their Lotus technologies to an Indian company for $1.8bn. Over the
last ten years a company the size of IBM could not successfully manage the
development of a cross-platform application development environment.   For
an entire decade IBM only added the v.9 release and fixpacks (and Notes 9.0
was actually Notes 8.5.4 but re-branded).

Notes used to exist in native clients for OS/2, Windows, MacOS.  IBM
jettisoned the native clients and moved to running the entire thing inside
the JVM.  It took IBM about 15 years to move from Notes 7 to Notes 10.
When I recently downloaded Notes 10 to do some programming on thousands of
emails (the very thing where Notes should shine) the client crashed
repeatedly on trying to import the emails.  Bear in mind that Notes even
has a menu action to import emails from a folder, so importing emails to
process the text is not even something that requires any programming, it's
that basic to the product.  Having moved from programming in C with all the
possible problems with pointers and memory allocation, Notes was moved to a
language with garbage collection and memory management and still the client
crashes doing basic things it could do 15 years ago.

By comparison in the last 10 to 15 years Livecode has added app delivery
for iOS, Android, Linux, Windows64 and HTML5 to Windows32 and OSX.  That's
more than IBM ever managed to do and a movement in the opposite direction
to that taken by IBM.  And as well as doing this Livecode re-architected
the engine.   IBM's major new feature over the last decade (XPages) looks
like it is now almost certainly going to be thrown away.  By moving to the
JVM for the development environment IBM was banking on delivering most
Notes apps as web apps.

Obviously the Notes servers do a whole range of things that Livecode
doesn't do.  But these server-side technologies were mostly in the Notes
product 15 years ago. Going back 15 years ago and Livecode was at v2.5.
Remember back then?  The clipboarddata was a new thing.  We didn't have a
built-in web browser, nor multi-dimensional arrays, nor unicode, nor the
datagrid, nor behaviors, nor widgets, nor xslt,  nor the enhanced liburl.
That's just off the top of my head.

IBM with all their resources and access to capital markets couldn't hold
themselves to their own limited roadmap.  Livecode has successfully moved
forward with a cross-platform solution when IBM couldn't do so.  And
without having $billions to play with.  They shouldn't attempt to hold to a
roadmap when the elephant in the room can't do it.  And IBM never allowed
businesses to use Notes for free nor did they open the source code.
Livecode did that and has a free edition which contains probably 99% of the
functionality of the most expensive license.

I think many of us lose sight of this small company's achievements.

Regards, Bernard
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Re: The Roadmap

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond wrote:

> Of course if certain long-term stuff from the Kickstarters don't
> appear on the Roadmap it is easier to hold LC to account than if
> the Roadmap were to disappear completely.

Which returns us to the question I posted an hour ago about the Roadmap:

   What purpose does it serve?

I can imagine all sorts of reasons one might find a roadmap useful. 
Some may find it useful for planning features down the road for one's 
own products (provided, of course, a solid understanding of what a 
roadmap is, and isn't, is in place); others may find it useful for 
anticipating areas of future contributions to the project (new widget 
opportunities, etc.); others may just find it interesting to see how the 
company envisions growth opportunities as reflected in feature sets.


There are all sorts of really good reasons people might want a roadmap.

And then there's yours:

  "...to hold LC to account..."

If that's your interest, I see no benefit in keeping the Roadmap.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: The Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Of course if certain long-term stuff from the Kickstarters don't appear 
on the
Roadmap it is easier to hold LC to account than if the Roadmap were to 
disappear completely.


On 29.10.19 21:19, hh via use-livecode wrote:

I also think all of them are still valuable targets.

Of course one could say "I know features/repairs that
should be made before that" and advertise for them.

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Re: The Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Well, even if nothing else, it gives an impression that the folk at 
LiveCode central have some sort
of GANTT chart with deliverables and dependencies, and what can be 
reasonably expected in the near future.


On 29.10.19 21:14, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

What purpose does it serve?




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Re: The Roadmap

[hh via use-livecode]

I also think all of them are still valuable targets.

Of course one could say "I know features/repairs that
should be made before that" and advertise for them.

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Re: The Roadmap

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

What purpose does it serve?

--
 Richard Gaskin


Richmond wrote:
>
> Why would you ditch it?
>
> On 29.10.19 20:59, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Richmond wrote:
>>
>> > The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>> >
>> > https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>> >
>> > Is there any chance of it being updated?
>>
>> I hope not.
>>
>> If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.
>>
>>
>> Lagi wrote:
>> > The silence is deafening. :-(
>>
>> ^ and that's why.
>


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Re: The Roadmap

[Richmond via use-livecode]

Why would you ditch it?

On 29.10.19 20:59, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Richmond wrote:

> The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>
> Is there any chance of it being updated?

I hope not.

If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.


Lagi wrote:
> The silence is deafening. :-(

^ and that's why.




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Re: The Roadmap

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond wrote:

> The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>
> Is there any chance of it being updated?

I hope not.

If it were up to me I'd ditch it altogether.


Lagi wrote:
> The silence is deafening. :-(

^ and that's why.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems

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Re: The Roadmap

[Lagi Pittas via use-livecode]

The silence is deafening. :-(

On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 at 21:04, Richmond via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> The Roadmap is more than a year out of date.
>
> https://livecode.com/resources/roadmap/
>
> Is there any chance of it being updated?
>
> Richmond.
>
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Re: HTML5 Roadmap?

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2015-09-23 13:56, Paul Richards wrote:

Interesting to see on v8 DP6
(https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pulls?q=milestone%3A8.0.0-dp-6+is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed)
that LCB widgets can be used in HTML5 Deployment
https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/2897 (sorry Livecode if you
planned to tell us this soon), great to see what's happening to
HTML5, but does this project have its own roadmap?
It would be nice to see what is currently being worked on, or planned
as POST is something I'm personally waiting for!


Well, activity on GitHub is always a good way of seeing what is 
currently being worked on, or what will appear soon :)


The next near term goal for HTML5 is getting a version which works in 
commercial (which includes sorting out password protection 
functionality).


With that we'll have a version for all editions and can then start 
iterating to add currently unimplemented functionality (network 
operations included), improving code size and improving performance.


Some of these present quite big challenges so it is very hard to give 
timescales. That being said, if there are specific features people would 
like to see implemented sooner rather than later, please do let us know 
(network operations are obviously quite high on the list!) as that will 
help us order them appropriately.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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RE: HTML5 Roadmap?

[Paul Richards]

Thanks for the quick reply Mark, your update has answered my question 
wonderfully and I shall keep scouring Github (which is great reading) 

Regards
Paul 

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf Of 
Mark Waddingham
Sent: 23 September 2015 14:14
To: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Subject: Re: HTML5 Roadmap?

On 2015-09-23 13:56, Paul Richards wrote:
> Interesting to see on v8 DP6
> (https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pulls?q=milestone%3A8.0.0-dp-6+i
> s%3Apr+is%3Aclosed) that LCB widgets can be used in HTML5 Deployment
> https://github.com/livecode/livecode/pull/2897 (sorry Livecode if you
> planned to tell us this soon), great to see what's happening to
> HTML5, but does this project have its own roadmap?
> It would be nice to see what is currently being worked on, or planned 
> as POST is something I'm personally waiting for!

Well, activity on GitHub is always a good way of seeing what is currently being 
worked on, or what will appear soon :)

The next near term goal for HTML5 is getting a version which works in 
commercial (which includes sorting out password protection functionality).

With that we'll have a version for all editions and can then start iterating to 
add currently unimplemented functionality (network operations included), 
improving code size and improving performance.

Some of these present quite big challenges so it is very hard to give 
timescales. That being said, if there are specific features people would like 
to see implemented sooner rather than later, please do let us know (network 
operations are obviously quite high on the list!) as that will help us order 
them appropriately.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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