Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Lagi Pittas via use-livecode]

Hi,

I'm sorry for the meandering, unfocused ran/stream of consciousness below
but ..

I agree with all the sentiments so far,  and I can empathise with Mark and
Todd about people who "Know" that everything must be written in C++ , Java
or Python. - Livecode is a "baby language" according to them -  so was
Clipper but we had OO (ish) and codeblocks in 1990. I wouldn't write a
Multitasking Kernal in Livecode (I created one in C for a Voice application
for Dollond and Aitchison before they were bought by boots). .
The Idea of taking the essence of some of the great threads in this List
and the Forums is to me a brilliant idea, But we need a concerted effort
with The  Livecode mothership mucking in - seems to me there is a lot of
demarcation (the software developers

Without (again!!!) trying to  beat a dead horse - and without becoming
personal (it isn't). Marketing and Web is controlled by the same person
believe - I don't see much marketing (posting articles get the word out is
marketing), and we have a revamp every couple of years.

What doesn't marketing/Web design have 1 hour a day to first find where old
links have stopped working (there are still many) post articles on
development sites but the biggie and probably the best post interesting
threads to SO as Todd says (and Monty tried to get going) and we (I would
be willing to find some time - but I wash the bottles as well - oh top be
just a marketer and look after a Wordpress site).

I'm now wondering if the LC Towers  is sitting back and waiting for all the
moolah to come in from the LIvecode for Filemaker (which I don't doubt is
coming in), but there is still stuff missing from the Kickstarter - the and
also the new sqlite library  we crowdfunded nearly 2 years ago.

Yes LC is fantastic - I would't be here if it wasn't but there are far too
many Moustraps for every developer to come running for ours.

Python is a joke as a first language for kids  - heck  I could never go
back to UI creating screens by hand coding ever since I used Foxpro (for
Dos) and Delphi. You might as well use BBC basic for windows . Don't get me
wrong I play/write utilities with Python,Lua,Purebasic BBC basic, Xharbour,
B4fX (B4A,b4I), Xojo, Delphi (v7)  and Lazarus (yes I have the lot - paid
for but not updated because I don't use them for making money) but since I
jettisoned Visual Foxpro,  LC is what I use for "Real programs". But until
the great unwashed get to hear about LC (open source) LC commercial will
always be in the backwaters.

Foxpro still works (last update 2004) and I used it to  knock up a simple
label printing program for a cousin of mine  in a couple of hours, a year
or so back - horses for courses.

So my question what does marketing do? - because it sure looks like a part
time job to me - I would like to be wrong but it seems to me 9 to 5 and  no
passion to get the word out,  going that extra mile. Not getting involved
with the community (on this list)  to see how we could all help even if it
is questions and answers on SO would be a start. I'm not holding my breath
to see if anybody other than the developers pop in here.

Regards Lagi

p.s

And while i'm on a stream of consciousness rant.

I understand why you don't have a perpetual license at least for the
desktops but I say again you should have a separate IOS and Android package
only for £99 (ish) which does not run out (although updates will need to be
paid for as- per XOJO).

Why so? Because if I  want to create a program for IOS £500 (yearly) for
livecode Indy + £99 for Apple yearly - launch my program and I make £200
(probably 90% make sweet Fanny Adams) and after a year I have to pay again
to use the program - I wont even go ther.  XOJO and b4I are about that
price and don't run out (but you pay for updates). Now if the LC  "lite"
versions (Android and IOS) didn't run out but £99 a year was for Updates
which WILL be needed on Mobile because of the changes to the API you would
have all the people at XOJO (if you marketed to them) coming in whilethey
wait for to  XOJO finish version 1 of their Android edition (some already
do use LC for that). Lots of £99 a year or 2  for updates adds up. - And
todays bedroom programmer is tomorrows business programmer (Windows/MAC).

And Btw I still think XOJO's website tells you exactly what it's about
CROSS-PLATFORM  RAPID APPLICATION DEVELOPMENT.

We have to scroll (below the fold) to find Startups, Education, getting
Started (You are not talking to me or Dave or Richard or Todd or other Old
Guard (who still know what a command line is) who are looking for a new
home. Why not talk to your visitors above the fold - and "our story can
still be there on page 1) taking a quarter of the page on the right. We
have to click anyway - this is web design 101.  LC is not BMW trying to
sell a lifestyle without mentioning the features/benefits of the product

Now I have to work late because of a rant!!

p.p.s

It's because I care about where LC is going (or not) that I 

Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

On 8/15/2018 2:10 PM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:
> This is a really good point. It *should* be trivial to put anything you've
> worked on in LC onto GitHub.

Like a *lot* of software (in fact I would argue all software), GIT is
easy if you know it and hard if you do not. Everything has a learning
curve. Sometime, even the initial time to figure of what to download and
install, how to start and use it in the most basic way, is still more
learning time that you have available.

I have made 3 attempts to get "started" with GIT on Windows 8.1 -
specifically to be able to access LiveCode stuff in GIT, and very
specifically to consider helping fix documentation in the Dictionary -
and stopped because I was interrupted by other work before I had enough
time to get very far.



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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

Ah, topics are the key concept. Glad that now Navigator is associated with
LiveCode on GitHub...

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 11:59 AM Warren Samples via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:10:57 -0700
> Geoff Canyon via use-livecode  wrote:
>
> > And done! Is there a way to tag repositories on GitHub by language, so
> it's
> > easy to find all LC repos?
>
>
> https://help.github.com/articles/working-with-tags/
>
> https://github.com/topics/livecode
>
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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Warren Samples via use-livecode]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 11:10:57 -0700
Geoff Canyon via use-livecode  wrote:

> And done! Is there a way to tag repositories on GitHub by language, so it's
> easy to find all LC repos?


https://help.github.com/articles/working-with-tags/

https://github.com/topics/livecode

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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Wed, Aug 15, 2018 at 11:10 AM Geoff Canyon  wrote:

>
> The process wasn't too painful:
>
> 1. Create a new repository on GitHub
> 2. Pick a spot on my computer and clone the repository using GitKraken
> 3. Use Navigator (shameless self promotion!) to export the script I wrote
> into a script-only stack in the repository folder
> 4. Merge the new file and push up to GitHub
>
> And done! Is there a way to tag repositories on GitHub by language, so
> it's easy to find all LC repos?
>

Of course it helps if you upload the correct script... (grr) So:

5. Use Navigator to restore the script from the repo into the button
6. Use Navigator to export the actual script from the card to the repo
7. Merge again
8. Push again

And now it's done.
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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 12:08 PM Todd Fabacher via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>
> 1. Not sufficient 3rd party tools with a viable marketplace [also little on
> Git]. If we have all these old LC scripts and they are open source, why
> don't we just put them on git???
>

This is a really good point. It *should* be trivial to put anything you've
worked on in LC onto GitHub. As an experiment I just did this with some
code I wrote a few days ago in response to another thread on this list:
https://github.com/gcanyon/primelist

It's just a simple routine to generate primes, but it has the advantage
that it uses less array storage than traditional methods -- usage scales
with the number of primes to return, rather than the upper bound, so it's
theoretically capable of returning a list of primes up to a billion or more.

The process wasn't too painful:

1. Create a new repository on GitHub
2. Pick a spot on my computer and clone the repository using GitKraken
3. Use Navigator (shameless self promotion!) to export the script I wrote
into a script-only stack in the repository folder
4. Merge the new file and push up to GitHub

And done! Is there a way to tag repositories on GitHub by language, so it's
easy to find all LC repos?

gc
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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

> On 14 Aug 2018, at 5:08 am, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Just curious...Why are these questions NOT being put on stackoverflow.com 
> ?
> This is now people, companies, and publications rank languages these days.

I was trying to encourage questions on SO a few years back. I did mergExt 
support there for that reason. SO is great for building a repository of 
knowledge, however, it is downright hostile if you don’t ask the question in 
the right way. One solution for the community is if people that have an 
interesting problem that is then discussed and resolved here or on the forums 
could then pose the question on SO and answer it themselves with the correct 
answer. That way the knowledge is better preserved.

Cheers

Monte
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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

I think GitHub could be a great place to store/share stacks. Here is an example 
of what is possible:
https://github.com/bwmilby/lc-misc/tree/master/NestedDGBehavior

That is a binary stack but includes a readme.md that links to a screen shot and 
all scripts are exported from the stack and are viewable online (main ones 
linked in the readme). I use ScriptTracker (same repo) to export the stack 
scripts but have seen other tools that can generate text files too. That way 
people can browse the code and if they want to download they just need to get 
the one stack file to have everything.

I agree that just putting a stack on GitHub isn’t going to help people have any 
idea what they are viewing.

Thanks,
Brian
On Aug 13, 2018, 3:47 PM -0500, Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
, wrote:
>
> > 1. Not sufficient 3rd party tools with a viable marketplace [also little on
> > Git]. If we have all these old LC scripts and they are open source, why
> > don't we just put them on git???
>
> There's some stuff on github, but it's not easy to find. Also, stacks
> that aren't script-only aren't a great fit for github other than as a
> means of somewhere to put them. Github is actually set up more for other
> team purposes than just a a repository for files.
>
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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Tom Glod via use-livecode]

agreed on all points .

Re LC Share...Had I not fallen in love with Livecode due to its cosmic
arrival in my life i would have clicked the x and never gone back as soon
as i saw the examples on lc share.  its  so incredibly underwhelming.  i
think its something that must be improved, down to the level of being able
to download individual commands and functions that do specific things...and
can be easily updated by those who shared their stuff there.

seems like LC is still going uphill ...but at some point . peak
difficulty will be reached and the big leaps forward can happen must
more easily.

If I was livecode...i would spend a lot of time consolidating and updating
the learning resources.

And I would post on social media when there is an event happening.


On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 4:45 PM, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 08/13/2018 12:08 PM, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode wrote:
>
> Also, we have two clients who select NOT to have us use LiveCode this
>> month.
>>
>
> Been there. Several times. I feel your pain.
>
> 1. Not sufficient 3rd party tools with a viable marketplace [also little on
>> Git]. If we have all these old LC scripts and they are open source, why
>> don't we just put them on git???
>>
>
> There's some stuff on github, but it's not easy to find. Also, stacks that
> aren't script-only aren't a great fit for github other than as a means of
> somewhere to put them. Github is actually set up more for other team
> purposes than just a a repository for files.
>
> 
> There's livecodeshare, but you have to know about it in order to look for
> it, it's on runrev.com instead of livecode.com/org, posting and updating
> stacks there is a pain, and it's only for complete stacks. There's no way
> to upload scripts as text and no way to upload widgets. There's actually no
> place to upload widgets that I know of other than the web forum, and
> searching for things there is byzantine.
> 
>
> 2. small community on StackOverflow.
>>
>
> I use stackoverflow all the time. It's an essential resource. I 
> never use it for LC bc the community isn't there. The resources are here
> instead.
>
> And please someone work on the www.slant.co.
>>
>
> I'm with Paul on this. I never heard of slant (I first read that as
> 'slack') and I'm wary of it. Unfortunately people tend to believe what they
> see on the internet. Even if it's not in color .
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>  ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
>
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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 08/13/2018 12:08 PM, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode wrote:


Also, we have two clients who select NOT to have us use LiveCode this
month.


Been there. Several times. I feel your pain.


1. Not sufficient 3rd party tools with a viable marketplace [also little on
Git]. If we have all these old LC scripts and they are open source, why
don't we just put them on git???


There's some stuff on github, but it's not easy to find. Also, stacks 
that aren't script-only aren't a great fit for github other than as a 
means of somewhere to put them. Github is actually set up more for other 
team purposes than just a a repository for files.



There's livecodeshare, but you have to know about it in order to look 
for it, it's on runrev.com instead of livecode.com/org, posting and 
updating stacks there is a pain, and it's only for complete stacks. 
There's no way to upload scripts as text and no way to upload widgets. 
There's actually no place to upload widgets that I know of other than 
the web forum, and searching for things there is byzantine.




2. small community on StackOverflow.


I use stackoverflow all the time. It's an essential resource. I  
never use it for LC bc the community isn't there. The resources are here 
instead.



And please someone work on the www.slant.co.


I'm with Paul on this. I never heard of slant (I first read that as 
'slack') and I'm wary of it. Unfortunately people tend to believe what 
they see on the internet. Even if it's not in color .


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Using stackoverflow.com

[Paul Dupuis via use-livecode]

I have heard of and use (occasionally) stackoverflow.com

Never heard of Slant and I'm not sure that in this day and age of paid
marketing disguised as "independent" reviews, that I would trust ANY
website for product recommendations that I or someone I trust had not
personally tried.

Just one opinion.

On 8/13/2018 3:08 PM, Todd Fabacher via use-livecode wrote:
> Just curious...Why are these questions NOT being put on stackoverflow.com?
> This is now people, companies, and publications rank languages these days.
>
> I think I have seen a post on people asking before, but it seems
> self-defeating to keep these post in the format. The new kids on the block
> and the old times do not benefit because they are not indexed by Google
> properly.
>
> Also, we have two clients who select NOT to have us use LiveCode this
> month. Something needs to change here. I am a strong believer that the
> community needs to step forward and do something. The two reasons they want
> a different environment were:
>
> 1. Not sufficient 3rd party tools with a viable marketplace [also little on
> Git]. If we have all these old LC scripts and they are open source, why
> don't we just put them on git???
>
> and
>
> 2. small community on StackOverflow.
>
>
> And please someone work on the www.slant.co. Here it is if you are
> unaware:  https://medium.com/building-slant/what-is-slant-5a836b200c0
> People really read this stuff and I can't get clients to use livecode. It's
> a real problem that needs to be addressed. I try not to complain and I
> think the community needs to step forward.
>
> https://www.slant.co/versus/119/124/~livecode_vs_scratch
> https://www.slant.co/versus/119/125/~livecode_vs_php
> https://www.slant.co/versus/119/126/~livecode_vs_golang
> https://www.slant.co/versus/119/381/~livecode_vs_haxe
>
>
> We all suffer as a community when we can not get companies who would commit
> resources and new young blood. Don't just want to complain. I am happy to
> put some resources into widgets. We have been working on a few.
>
> --Todd
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Using stackoverflow.com

[Todd Fabacher via use-livecode]

Just curious...Why are these questions NOT being put on stackoverflow.com?
This is now people, companies, and publications rank languages these days.

I think I have seen a post on people asking before, but it seems
self-defeating to keep these post in the format. The new kids on the block
and the old times do not benefit because they are not indexed by Google
properly.

Also, we have two clients who select NOT to have us use LiveCode this
month. Something needs to change here. I am a strong believer that the
community needs to step forward and do something. The two reasons they want
a different environment were:

1. Not sufficient 3rd party tools with a viable marketplace [also little on
Git]. If we have all these old LC scripts and they are open source, why
don't we just put them on git???

and

2. small community on StackOverflow.


And please someone work on the www.slant.co. Here it is if you are
unaware:  https://medium.com/building-slant/what-is-slant-5a836b200c0
People really read this stuff and I can't get clients to use livecode. It's
a real problem that needs to be addressed. I try not to complain and I
think the community needs to step forward.

https://www.slant.co/versus/119/124/~livecode_vs_scratch
https://www.slant.co/versus/119/125/~livecode_vs_php
https://www.slant.co/versus/119/126/~livecode_vs_golang
https://www.slant.co/versus/119/381/~livecode_vs_haxe


We all suffer as a community when we can not get companies who would commit
resources and new young blood. Don't just want to complain. I am happy to
put some resources into widgets. We have been working on a few.

--Todd
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