Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[e-letter]

On 07/05/2013, Milos Sramek  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> thank you all for your answers. In fact I take part in a larger scale
> testing of interoperability of formats, since open source software is
> currently considered by Slovak administration as and alternative to the
> standard MS stuff. If everything goes really well, there will be a
> transition period when open source (say, LO) and proprietary
> applications will be used in parallel and documents in various formats
> will be interchanged. Therefore, we want to understand the situation and
> prepare a guide (use this feature, avoid that feature), which would help
> in creating documents which can safely be opened by the other tool.
>
> I am aware of the fact that "open" standards like OOXML, which are
> more-or-less in hands of only one company (even if it is an ISO
> standard) will always be a problem. Simultaneously, MS support of ODF
> will probably never be perfect. But a state administration does not need
> complex features and formatting - therefore we want to prepare the guide
> which would tell them, what is safe to use.
>

You may want to review the following guide published by m$:
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/differences-between-the-opendocument-text-odt-format-and-the-word-docx-format-HA010355788.aspx


>
> If this is a bug in LO I will file a bug in its Bugzilla. If it is a bug
> in MS2013, we will ask MS to correct that (there is a guy from Microsoft
> in our team who promised to do that). If they do not correct it, it will
> be a nice argument against using MSO at all.
>

Could you also ask your m$ guy to ask that m$ publish in public domain
all their bugs? :)

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[e-letter]

On 04/05/2013, Sigrid Carrera  wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
>
> On 4 May 2013 18:47, Tom Davies  wrote:
>
>> Hi :)
>> That is a very generous offer but i suspect you would have more fun and be
>> more useful in other areas of the project!!
>>
>
> That is your opinion. But I think it is very arrogant of you to decide for
> someone else, where he would have more fun. Also discouraging someone from
> a job that he's willing to take on, is counterproductive.
>

Agreed.

>
>>
>>
>> You are new to the project and really should keep your options open for a
>> bit longer.  Perhaps just become  more familiar with the types of posts
>> that do get to this list.  It's an extremely high-traffic list so it's
>> going to need a LOT of people.  For the project as a whole i think it
>> would
>> be better if you could be a moderator for the Devs Mailing List, not the
>> Users List!
>>
>
> How do you come to this conclusion? What makes you think, that he would be
> a good moderator for the dev list (which isn't even in our infrastructure)
> but not for the users list?
>
>

If you look at a random selection of typical "replies", this is a
common occurrence.

>>
>>
>> On the other hand i think Anne and others that have been here a while
>> would be perfect for this list
>>
>
> What makes Anne perfect for this list? I have a very hard time reading (and
> understanding) her posts. But I would never say, that she is (or is not)
> perfect for the moderator job. How you write your posts has nothing to do
> with moderating a message. It is either accepting or rejecting an email
> from someone else for the list. And being able to figure out, if an email
> is spam or not (everything that comes from *mail.ru often is).
>
>

Agreed; both these writers often publish gibberish. With such
moderation, spam is likely to increase ;)

> Honestly, I was put off by your reply to RD Vaishnav's generous offer. We
> do need more moderators on the different lists...
>

Would you please "moderate" their posts particularly? ;) Please mark
"top-post spam: delete"

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[libreoffice-users] spreadsheet cell date format behaviour failure

[e-letter]

Readers,

Please review bug 36175 and confirm (or not) if the behaviour reported
is also observed personally; thanks:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36175#c8

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[James Knott]

anne-ology wrote:

Just one question: haven't you already made 2 others moderators for
this list? -
   how many are needed or does each do some specific job?




Everything in moderation, including moderation.  ;-)


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Calc sheet name

[Mark LaPierre]

On 05/06/2013 05:51 AM, IGraham wrote:

LibreOffice 4.0.2.2
Calc

This is just me playing, nothing important

Is it possible to 'reference a cell in a sheet tab name'. I have a index
sheet and I'd like to name other sheets (in the sheet tabs) depending upon a
name in a cell within the index sheet ?

How would I go about that ? Is it possible ?

Thanks for any help you can give



-
IGraham



Are you asking if you can dynamically name a sheet, and have that name 
appear in the tab, based on the content of a cell on the same sheet, or 
a cell on another sheet?


If that's what you're asking the answer is no it is not possible to 
dynamically name a sheet.


--
_
   °v°
  /(_)\
   ^ ^  Mark LaPierre
Registered Linux user No #267004
https://linuxcounter.net/


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[anne-ology]

   I'm curious re. this as well;
my curiosity is growing  ;-)



On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Joel Madero  wrote:

Which mailing lists are we looking at. QA mailing list needs a couple
> moderators as well as our admin left the project recently. He passed on
> duties to me but to be quite honest I  simply don't have the time and
> haven't even looked at the admin priv. since he passed them along last week.
>
> If QA is included in the call for moderators, fantastic, if not, I'd open
> it up as well :) I will maintain admin rights and get familiar with them
> but moderation will be needed.
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Joel
>
> --
> *Joel Madero*
> LibreOffice QA Volunteer
> jmadero@gmail.com
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[Joel Madero]

Which mailing lists are we looking at. QA mailing list needs a couple
moderators as well as our admin left the project recently. He passed on
duties to me but to be quite honest I  simply don't have the time and
haven't even looked at the admin priv. since he passed them along last week.

If QA is included in the call for moderators, fantastic, if not, I'd open
it up as well :) I will maintain admin rights and get familiar with them
but moderation will be needed.


Best Regards,
Joel

-- 
*Joel Madero*
LibreOffice QA Volunteer
jmadero@gmail.com

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[Cor Nouws]

anne-ology wrote (08-05-13 01:03)


Just one question: haven't you already made 2 others moderators for
this list? -


Including you, there are 8 moderators now.


   how many are needed or does each do some specific job?


No specific numbers for that.
And in principle each does the same: look if a mail to the list, from 
some address not subscribed, if spam, junk, or a serious post. And in 
the letter case only, make sure that it reaches the list.



With all due thanks,


You're welcome.
Cheers

Cor

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[Florian Effenberger]

Hello,

anne-ology wrote on 2013-05-07 21:24:

sounds like something I could do for this list.


thank you very much for volunteering! I have just added you as 
moderator. :-)


Florian

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[anne-ology]

   sounds good.

   Just one question: haven't you already made 2 others moderators for
this list? -
  how many are needed or does each do some specific job?

   With all due thanks,
  yet also filled with curiosity,



On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Florian Effenberger <
flo...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

Hello,
>
> anne-ology wrote on 2013-05-07 21:24:
>
>  sounds like something I could do for this list.
>>
>
> thank you very much for volunteering! I have just added you as moderator.
> :-)
>
> Florian
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[anne-ology]

   Thank you for these very kind words; I feel quite honored.



On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Tom Davies  wrote:

Hi :)
> Anne is;
> 1.   familiar with the list so she knows the volume of traffic to expect
> 2.   able to keep up with the traffic very well
>
> 3.   seems to enjoy being here
> 4.   probably ready to take on new challenges
>
> Vaishnav is a recent arrival who looks like being well on his way to the
> devs list.  Being a moderator there might help him become more familiar
> with some of the issues there.  if the devs list doesn't need moderating
> then i apologise for not realising it's treated so differently from all the
> other lists.
>
> I am sure we have all been new and keen at projects and then rapidly
> realised we've taken on too much and had to back out and then felt guilty
> about that or felt like never having anything to do with them ever again.
> Some call it "burn out".  From what i have seen so far i'd like to see
> Vaishnav stick around a long while and not suffer burn out too quickly.
> There are factors he might not be aware of and it felt unfair to expect him
> to jump in without knowing things we thoroughly grok through having been
> here more than a day.
>
>
> Not all of us here can write code or do a patch.  The closest we get is
> writing macros and even that is waaay beyond most of us.  Should we
> encourage him to build on his talents and mix with like-minded people or
> chain him down here with commitments to this list?
>
>
> It's up to him of course
>
> Regards from
>
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: Sigrid Carrera 
> >To: Tom Davies 
> >Cc: RD Vaishnav ; "flo...@documentfoundation.org"
> ; "users@global.libreoffice.org" <
> users@global.libreoffice.org>
> >Sent: Saturday, 4 May 2013, 19:35
> >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators
> >
> >
> >
> >Hi Tom,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >On 4 May 2013 18:47, Tom Davies  wrote:
> >
> >Hi :)
> >>That is a very generous offer but i suspect you would have more fun and
> be more useful in other areas of the project!!
> >>
> >
> >
> >That is your opinion. But I think it is very arrogant of you to decide
> for someone else, where he would have more fun. Also discouraging someone
> from a job that he's willing to take on, is counter-productive.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>You are new to the project and really should keep your options open for
> a bit longer.  Perhaps just become  more familiar with the types of posts
> that do get to this list.  It's an extremely high-traffic list so it's
> going to need a LOT of people.  For the project as a whole i think it would
> be better if you could be a moderator for the Devs Mailing List, not the
> Users List!
> >>
> >
> >
> >How do you come to this conclusion? What makes you think, that he would
> be a good moderator for the dev list (which isn't even in our
> infrastructure) but not for the users list?
> >
> >
> >>
> >>On the other hand i think Anne and others that have been here a while
> would be perfect for this list
> >>
> >
> >
> >What makes Anne perfect for this list? I have a very hard time reading
> (and understanding) her posts. But I would never say, that she is (or is
> not) perfect for the moderator job. How you write your posts has nothing to
> do with moderating a message. It is either accepting or rejecting an email
> from someone else for the list. And being able to figure out, if an email
> is spam or not (everything that comes from *mail.ru often is).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Honestly, I was put off by your reply to RD Vaishnav's generous offer. We
> do need more moderators on the different lists...
> >
> >
> >Sigrid
> >
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[anne-ology]

   ouch  ;-)

   which reminds me of Rudyard Kipling's words, "East is East, and West
is West, and never the twain shall meet"

   BTW - my sincerest apologies to any of you to whom I must have
offended;
   that has never been my intention,



On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Sigrid Carrera wrote:

Hi Tom,
>
>
> On 4 May 2013 18:47, Tom Davies  wrote:
>
> > Hi :)
> > That is a very generous offer but i suspect you would have more fun and
> be
> > more useful in other areas of the project!!
> >
>
> That is your opinion. But I think it is very arrogant of you to decide for
> someone else, where he would have more fun. Also discouraging someone from
> a job that he's willing to take on, is counterproductive.
>
>
> >
> >
> > You are new to the project and really should keep your options open for a
> > bit longer.  Perhaps just become  more familiar with the types of posts
> > that do get to this list.  It's an extremely high-traffic list so it's
> > going to need a LOT of people.  For the project as a whole i think it
> would
> > be better if you could be a moderator for the Devs Mailing List, not the
> > Users List!
> >
>
> How do you come to this conclusion? What makes you think, that he would be
> a good moderator for the dev list (which isn't even in our infrastructure)
> but not for the users list?
>
>
> >
> >
> > On the other hand i think Anne and others that have been here a while
> > would be perfect for this list
> >
>
> What makes Anne perfect for this list? I have a very hard time reading (and
> understanding) her posts. But I would never say, that she is (or is not)
> perfect for the moderator job. How you write your posts has nothing to do
> with moderating a message. It is either accepting or rejecting an email
> from someone else for the list. And being able to figure out, if an email
> is spam or not (everything that comes from *mail.ru often is).
>
>
> Honestly, I was put off by your reply to RD Vaishnav's generous offer. We
> do need more moderators on the different lists...
>
> Sigrid
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[anne-ology]

   Wow, thanks for the commendation;
   I would be delighted to be of service in this manner.



On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Tom Davies  wrote:

Hi :)
> That is a very generous offer but i suspect you would have more fun and be
> more useful in other areas of the project!!
>
>
> You are new to the project and really should keep your options open for a
> bit longer.  Perhaps just become  more familiar with the types of posts
> that do get to this list.  It's an extremely high-traffic list so it's
> going to need a LOT of people.  For the project as a whole i think it would
> be better if you could be a moderator for the Devs Mailing List, not the
> Users List!
>
>
> On the other hand i think Anne and others that have been here a while
> would be perfect for this list
>
> Many regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: RD Vaishnav 
> >To: flo...@documentfoundation.org
> >Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
> >Sent: Saturday, 4 May 2013, 12:49
> >Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators
> >
> >
> >i m interested in becoming moderator for mailing list. and is it fine if i
> >check mails just twice or thrice a day?? and thanks for the opportunity.
> >
> >
> >On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Florian Effenberger <
> >flo...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> at the moment, we are looking for volunteers who could help moderate
> this
> >> mailing list.
> >>
> >> If you are interested, the only requirement is that you are subscribed
> to
> >> the list yourself and read its mails in a somehow timely manner, but
> that's
> >> about it.
> >>
> >> Moderation means dealing with e-mails that do not automatically make it
> to
> >> the list, which you then manually forward, or reject. This happens
> either
> >> when an e-mail comes from an unknown sender, e.g. when a project member
> >> uses a different address for posting. It also occurs when someone
> >> unexperienced writes to the list, thinking it's a private account, but
> in
> >> fact it's a public list.
> >>
> >> You'll receive the message to be moderated via e-mail, which you then
> can
> >> either "moderate through", or reject.
> >>
> >> Is someone interested in joining our efforts? It'd be much appreciated -
> >> just drop me an email (please also copy me directly, and not only the
> >> list), then I'm happy to add you to the list of moderators.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >> Florian
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >--
> >: Ram Dayal Vaishnav "Gurumukhi"
> >  NIT Trichy
> >
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Seeking for list moderators

[anne-ology]

   sounds like something I could do for this list.



On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Florian Effenberger <
flo...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

Hello,
>
> at the moment, we are looking for volunteers who could help moderate this
> mailing list.
>
> If you are interested, the only requirement is that you are subscribed to
> the list yourself and read its mails in a somehow timely manner, but that's
> about it.
>
> Moderation means dealing with e-mails that do not automatically make it to
> the list, which you then manually forward, or reject. This happens either
> when an e-mail comes from an unknown sender, e.g. when a project member
> uses a different address for posting. It also occurs when someone
> unexperienced writes to the list, thinking it's a private account, but in
> fact it's a public list.
>
> You'll receive the message to be moderated via e-mail, which you then can
> either "moderate through", or reject.
>
> Is someone interested in joining our efforts? It'd be much appreciated -
> just drop me an email (please also copy me directly, and not only the
> list), then I'm happy to add you to the list of moderators.
>
> Thanks!
> Florian
>
>

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[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] 各种职业资格证：教师资格证、人力资源师、一二级建造师，会计师、大学英语四六级等。联系刘老师QQ：920021576 国外学历认证。部份本专院校上网毕业证

[anne-ology]

   Your translator program gave more information than mine did  ;-)
 mine responded with nothing but gibberish; well, maybe that's
what yours gave as well  ;-)



On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Tom Davies  wrote:

Hi :)
> Errr, my Machine Translator seemed to be very wonky about that
> "Has been discussing with the urine is a good brother, one day stool
> crossing the road was struck and killed by a car, urinate said: I miss
> stool"
> lol!!  The subject-line seemed much more likely with
>
> "Variety of vocational qualification certificate: Teacher, human
> resources division, a construction division, accountants, college
> English forty-six. Contact Liu QQ: 920021576 foreign academic
> qualifications. Some of the tertiary institutions internet diploma"
>
> Still not very clear, even if the MT is right.
>
> Regards from
>
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > From: 曼彤 
> >To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> >Sent: Sunday, 5 May 2013, 13:52
> >Subject: [libreoffice-users]
> 各种职业资格证：教师资格证、人力资源师、一二级建造师，会计师、大学英语四六级等。联系刘老师QQ：920021576
> 国外学历认证。部份本专院校上网毕业证
> >
> >
> >36.大便跟小便是好兄弟，有一天大便过马路被车撞死了，小便就说：我好想大便啊…
> >--
> >To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> >Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> >All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
> >
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
There is an add-on for older versions of MS Office that do now allow it to open 
the newer ooxml formats such as DocX.  Somewhere in microsoft.com but i'm not 
sure where.  The problem is that it's a bit variable depending on which version 
of MSO created the document.  

With Open Source, one option that a few large organisations go for is to use 
some of the saving on license fees to establish their own devs.  Those are then 
directed to work on the bugs the organisation or government wants fixed.  

So, for a 30 million Euro saving then maybe put 3 million of that into 
employing some devs to get some control.  Various organisations already do 
this.  Another option might be to pay TDF to employ people but then that 
becomes less easy for the external organisation/government to control.  So far 
TDF only directly employs 1 person and that is not for coding work.  

So each organisation develops LibreOffice as though it was an in-house project 
but shares the infrastructure and the process with other organisations and 
volunteers.  Redhat, SUSE and others directly employ their own devs to work on 
LibreOffice using the systems set up here.  So Redhat benefit from work that 
SUSE does (and that volunteers do), likewise SUSE benefits from Redhat's work.  
Regard from 
Tom :)  






- Original Message -
> From: Virgil Arrington 
> To: Milos Sramek ; users@global.libreoffice.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 13:38
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO
> 
> Milos,
> 
> I'm no expert, nor can I tell you why you're having those issues, but I 
> can confirm that there are many differences in the way Word and LO Writer 
> work. 
> I use a lot of outline styles and they just don't translate well between the 
> two programs. For me the differences seem to be in the spacing between the 
> outline number/letter and the following text. I see the same issue with 
> footnotes that also have automatic numbering. I think the difference lay in 
> the 
> way each program inserts space after bullets or automatic numbers. I think 
> that 
> Word inserts a  character whereas LO inserts space using a different 
> method (but I could be wrong).
> 
> Also, there are fundamental differences in page structure that I have noticed.
> 
> LO uses page styles to distinguish between different types of page 
> formatting, 
> whereas with Word, you use section breaks and format the pages directly. This 
> doesn't translate well between programs. I have used both for years.
> 
> I would absolutely love to see Open Source software become much more 
> successful, 
> but I fear that will only happen when the ODT file format becomes the 
> industry 
> standard. If your primary concern is being compatible with the MS 
> "standard," I fear that Open Source will always come up short because 
> there are just too many differences between file formats. I have long given 
> up 
> trying to use LO and/or OO any time I am sharing documents with a Word user. 
> It 
> just don't work.
> 
> But, Tom is correct in saying that even within the MS world, there are 
> significant differences between different versions of the same program. In 
> 2007, 
> when MS adopted the DOCX format, my employer's older Word program 
> couldn't open the newer files.
> 
> Virgil
> 
> -Original Message- From: Milos Sramek
> Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 3:28 AM
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> thank you all for your answers. In fact I take part in a larger scale
> testing of interoperability of formats, since open source software is
> currently considered by Slovak administration as and alternative to the
> standard MS stuff. If everything goes really well, there will be a
> transition period when open source (say, LO) and proprietary
> applications will be used in parallel and documents in various formats
> will be interchanged. Therefore, we want to understand the situation and
> prepare a guide (use this feature, avoid that feature), which would help
> in creating documents which can safely be opened by the other tool.
> 
> I am aware of the fact that "open" standards like OOXML, which are
> more-or-less in hands of only one company (even if it is an ISO
> standard) will always be a problem. Simultaneously, MS support of ODF
> will probably never be perfect. But a state administration does not need
> complex features and formatting - therefore we want to prepare the guide
> which would tell them, what is safe to use.
> 
> The discrepancies between rendering of odt and docx files by the other
> applications are really big. Jean-Francois pointed to "Styles. Or lack
> of. " I've heard this also from other people. So, is it really 
> possible,
> that a program, when opening a document, applies some additional
> formating, which can change appearance in comparison to the original?
> Should this be considered as a bug, or is it a feature (which can be
> eventual

[libreoffice-users] Re: [libreoffice-users] 各种职业资格证：教师资格证、人力资源师、一二级建造师，会计师、大学英语四六级等。联系刘老师QQ：920021576 国外学历认证。部份本专院校上网毕业证

[anne-ology]

   Are you asking a question?, making a comment?, or has your computer
been hacked by some hieroglyphics  ;-)



On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 7:52 AM, 曼彤  wrote:

36.大便跟小便是好兄弟，有一天大便过马路被车撞死了，小便就说：我好想大便啊…
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[Regina Henschel]

Hi Milos,

Milos Sramek schrieb:



[..]

ODF 1.1 and OOXML transitional were used, the used fonts were available
on both computers. Line spacing does not seem to be a big issue, but one
can see inconsistent line spacing nearly everywhere. So, from the point
of view of interoperability it is perhaps a blocker, since the
displacement is sometimes a couple of lines per page.



And another reason not to use ODF1.1:
If you save from LO to ODF1.1, then the old kind of lists are used. 
These do not know tabs for indenting.


When you will write a new list in the current LO, it will get the 
interface for the actual kind of lists, but its settings will be lost 
when saving to ODF1.1.


Reopening such document will have different list formatting than those 
before saving. That will likely confuse average users.


Kind regards
Regina


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Hide rows in a table in Writer

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Sorry!  I wasn't sure if that was meant to be off-list or not.  It looked fine 
for the list.  I think we all knew you already thought this way anyway so that 
part didn't really need to be said.  I wasn't really attacking you although i 
can see why it would be interpreted that way.  Sorry about that!   

Row height might be more comfortable a fair bit more than 1 pixel height, maybe 
just enough so that you can see the contents, without zooming in too much, on 
the odd occasions  you want to (if you or he does).  

You can post "Feature requests" in the same way as bug-reports.  One of the 
drop-down menus has "Enhancement request" or "Feature request" in it somewhere. 
 Other projects call it "Wish-list item" or other things but you will probably 
know when you see it.  It is fairly well hidden in just 1 of the drop-downs 
though.  

This guide might help but obviously ignore all the detail that you would 
normally need to give in a bug-report at some point 
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/BugReport

Hope this helps a bit!
Apols and regards from 
Tom :)  







- Original Message -
> From: Jason Davis 
> To: Tom Davies 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 14:15
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Hide rows in a table in Writer
> 
> I agree that Libre Office is different and personally I don't think of 
> it as a cheap version of Office. I much more prefer the way that Libre 
> Office works. I tend to find that (and this is what I like) all related 
> items are in one dialog box. Not split all over the place. Prefer menus 
> to a ribbon.
> 
> Personally I have never wanted to hide rows, until last night did not 
> know that Word could do it. Will see if friend will accept the 
> workaround of making the row heights equal 1 pixel.
> 
> On another point how can we contact developers with ideas of functions 
> that may be nice to incorporate.
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> On 07/05/2013 13:21, Tom Davies wrote:
>>  Hi :)
>>  Perhaps shrink the height of the row until it looks more like a 
> double-underline?  That would work in Word too.
>> 
>>  If he insists on using it as  a cheapskate version of MS Office he is going 
> to be struggling.  LibreOffice has different ways of doing things and when 
> you 
> use them instead of just complaining about it not being the same then you 
> find 
> it actually out-performs and produces much better quality documents than you 
> get 
> with MS Office.
>> 
>>  I wish the marketing people would stop mentioning about the price and just 
> sell it on performance instead.  I think we would get more people using it 
> and 
> using it properly.
>>  Regards from
>>  Tom :)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  - Original Message -
>>>  From: Motoborg 
>>>  To: users@global.libreoffice.org
>>>  Cc:
>>>  Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 11:30
>>>  Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Hide rows in a table in Writer
>>> 
>>>  Needs to be a simple table in writer not an embeded calc spreadsheet.
>>> 
>>>  Friend is complaining about it as he says he needs the function that he
>>>  had in MS Word, but can not afford the price of Word.
>>> 
>>>  I can see how to hide the text but this leaves small empty rows. Would
>>>  need to completely hide the row as if it was not there.
>>> 
>>>  Thanks for advice.
>>> 
>>>  Jason.
>>>  On 07/05/2013 11:24, Tom [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] wrote:
    Hi :)
    Lol!!  Yes, but is it an embedded Calc object or a straight 
> table?
    [shrugs]  We both covered 1 option each so one of the answers 
> works
    and the other doesn't.  My money would be on your answer but 
> it's
>>>  nice
    to show there is a choice imo.
    Regards from
    Tom :)
 
 
 
 
    - Original Message -
 
    > From: Brian Barker <[hidden email]
   
> >
    > To: [hidden email]
>>>  
    > Cc:
    > Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 3:32
    > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Hide rows in a table in 
> Writer
    >
    > At 00:50 07/05/2013 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
    >> If the table is a spreadsheet (Calc) ...
    >
    > I wonder if the message subject gives us a clue about this 
> ...
    >
    > Brian Barker
    >
    >
    > --
    > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
    
    > Problems?
   
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
    > Posting guidelines + more:
>>>  http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
    > List archive: 
> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
    > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and 
> cannot
    be deleted
    >
 
    --
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    Problems?
   
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[Regina Henschel]

Hi Milos,

Milos Sramek schrieb:


Hi,

thank you all for your answers. In fact I take part in a larger scale
testing of interoperability of formats, since open source software is
currently considered by Slovak administration as and alternative to the
standard MS stuff.


Then you might be interested in the work of
https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=oic
http://www.ecis.eu/intraoperability/
http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/en/elan/publikationen/infomaterial/white_paper/documentinteroperability/index.html
And Plugfest
http://plugfest.opendocsociety.org/doku.php?id=start
Do you want to host a Plugfest?

 If everything goes really well, there will be a

transition period when open source (say, LO) and proprietary
applications will be used in parallel and documents in various formats
will be interchanged. Therefore, we want to understand the situation and
prepare a guide (use this feature, avoid that feature), which would help
in creating documents which can safely be opened by the other tool.


I'm very interested in a comparison. Perhaps you can start a page on the 
Wiki to collect all the problems?




I am aware of the fact that "open" standards like OOXML, which are
more-or-less in hands of only one company (even if it is an ISO
standard) will always be a problem. Simultaneously, MS support of ODF
will probably never be perfect. But a state administration does not need
complex features and formatting - therefore we want to prepare the guide
which would tell them, what is safe to use.

The discrepancies between rendering of odt and docx files by the other
applications are really big. Jean-Francois pointed to "Styles. Or lack
of. " I've heard this also from other people. So, is it really possible,
that a program, when opening a document, applies some additional
formating, which can change appearance in comparison to the original?
Should this be considered as a bug, or is it a feature (which can be
eventually switched off) ?


There are some features, which are available in one format and not in 
the other. Therefore it is no good idea to keep both formats parallel.

I prefer ODF ;)
The support for ODF in MS Office 2013 is already good. MS has an 
overview, what is not supported yet.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/jj680136%28v=office.12%29.aspx



As an example I created a simple document in LO40 (MS2013), stored as
odt (docx) and opened and printed in MS2013 (LO40) :
http://ubuntuone.com/1lkbhsT9veT24B9a9jPUpr
In the pdf (overlay of rendering in bork applications) you can see that
the major difference resides in interline spacing. Do you have and idea,
where is  the reason?


Yes :) MS Word adds space after the paragraph in a list in docx. In Word 
open the context menu of a paragraph of the list. Click on 'Paragraph'. 
You can see, that Spacing after and you will find a checkbox for not 
adding the space. Let read MS Word the ODF 1.2 version of your document, 
you will notice a better layout.



ODF 1.1 and OOXML transitional were used, the used fonts were available
on both computers. Line spacing does not seem to be a big issue, but one
can see inconsistent line spacing nearly everywhere. So, from the point
of view of interoperability it is perhaps a blocker, since the
displacement is sometimes a couple of lines per page.


Do not use ODF 1.1. ODF 1.1 has no namespace for formulas in Calc. 
Therefore Excel do not import the formulas, but only the values. Use ODF 
1.2 and MS Office 2013. If you will go with ODF, one Windows PC with MS 
Office 2013 should be sufficient to analyze and transform documents with 
broken layout.




If this is a bug in LO I will file a bug in its Bugzilla. If it is a bug
in MS2013, we will ask MS to correct that (there is a guy from Microsoft
in our team who promised to do that). If they do not correct it, it will
be a nice argument against using MSO at all.


It need not be a bug, but different default settings and missing features.



I will be grateful for each advice on how to analyze the problem and how
to sort out the reason.


If you provide examples, it is much easier to find the reasons.

Missing feature is a large problem. Very difficult is for example the 
handling of tables. Word knows "floating tables", which LO does not. 
Therefore LO converts a "floating table" by putting as normal table into 
a frame. But a frame cannot extend a page and therefore the table does 
not break to the next page. But in Word this table breaks to the next page.


Similar problems exists with anchor and wrap settings of objects.

Kind regards
Regina


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[Virgil Arrington]

Milos,

I'm no expert, nor can I tell you why you're having those issues, but I can 
confirm that there are many differences in the way Word and LO Writer work. 
I use a lot of outline styles and they just don't translate well between the 
two programs. For me the differences seem to be in the spacing between the 
outline number/letter and the following text. I see the same issue with 
footnotes that also have automatic numbering. I think the difference lay in 
the way each program inserts space after bullets or automatic numbers. I 
think that Word inserts a  character whereas LO inserts space using a 
different method (but I could be wrong).


Also, there are fundamental differences in page structure that I have 
noticed.


LO uses page styles to distinguish between different types of page 
formatting, whereas with Word, you use section breaks and format the pages 
directly. This doesn't translate well between programs. I have used both for 
years.


I would absolutely love to see Open Source software become much more 
successful, but I fear that will only happen when the ODT file format 
becomes the industry standard. If your primary concern is being compatible 
with the MS "standard," I fear that Open Source will always come up short 
because there are just too many differences between file formats. I have 
long given up trying to use LO and/or OO any time I am sharing documents 
with a Word user. It just don't work.


But, Tom is correct in saying that even within the MS world, there are 
significant differences between different versions of the same program. In 
2007, when MS adopted the DOCX format, my employer's older Word program 
couldn't open the newer files.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Milos Sramek

Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 3:28 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO


Hi,

thank you all for your answers. In fact I take part in a larger scale
testing of interoperability of formats, since open source software is
currently considered by Slovak administration as and alternative to the
standard MS stuff. If everything goes really well, there will be a
transition period when open source (say, LO) and proprietary
applications will be used in parallel and documents in various formats
will be interchanged. Therefore, we want to understand the situation and
prepare a guide (use this feature, avoid that feature), which would help
in creating documents which can safely be opened by the other tool.

I am aware of the fact that "open" standards like OOXML, which are
more-or-less in hands of only one company (even if it is an ISO
standard) will always be a problem. Simultaneously, MS support of ODF
will probably never be perfect. But a state administration does not need
complex features and formatting - therefore we want to prepare the guide
which would tell them, what is safe to use.

The discrepancies between rendering of odt and docx files by the other
applications are really big. Jean-Francois pointed to "Styles. Or lack
of. " I've heard this also from other people. So, is it really possible,
that a program, when opening a document, applies some additional
formating, which can change appearance in comparison to the original?
Should this be considered as a bug, or is it a feature (which can be
eventually switched off) ?

As an example I created a simple document in LO40 (MS2013), stored as
odt (docx) and opened and printed in MS2013 (LO40) :
http://ubuntuone.com/1lkbhsT9veT24B9a9jPUpr
In the pdf (overlay of rendering in bork applications) you can see that
the major difference resides in interline spacing. Do you have and idea,
where is  the reason?
ODF 1.1 and OOXML transitional were used, the used fonts were available
on both computers. Line spacing does not seem to be a big issue, but one
can see inconsistent line spacing nearly everywhere. So, from the point
of view of interoperability it is perhaps a blocker, since the
displacement is sometimes a couple of lines per page.

If this is a bug in LO I will file a bug in its Bugzilla. If it is a bug
in MS2013, we will ask MS to correct that (there is a guy from Microsoft
in our team who promised to do that). If they do not correct it, it will
be a nice argument against using MSO at all.

I will be grateful for each advice on how to analyze the problem and how
to sort out the reason.

With best regards
Milos

Dňa 06.05.2013 18:31, Regina Henschel wrote / napísal(a):

Hi Milos,

Milos Sramek schrieb:

Hi,

I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple documents,
containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and bulleted lists,
differently. These differences are from both sides: a document is
created in LO, stored in odf and opened in MSO (2013)


Do you mean, that you write to .odt and open the document then in
MSO-2013?

Are you writing with ODF1.2 or with ODF 1.2 extended? In case of ODF
1.2 extended, you cannot expect that MSO can read it the same way,
because is might 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[James Knott]

Tom Davies wrote:

Hi:)
Most newer versions of MS Office have ODF support built-in.  Unfortunately it's 
only the 2013 and 365 that use the same version of ODF as everyone else.  2007 
and 2010 use the old 1.1 which is not great for spreadsheets!
Regards from
Tom:)   



It's been a while since I've had occasion to use it, but, IIRC, you 
could choose whether to use the Sun plugin or built in ODF support even 
on the later versions of office.  Of course, with the older versions, 
there wasn't any native support at all.  Either way, the Sun plugin 
should be used in my opinon.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Hide rows in a table in Writer

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Perhaps shrink the height of the row until it looks more like a 
double-underline?  That would work in Word too.  

If he insists on using it as  a cheapskate version of MS Office he is going to 
be struggling.  LibreOffice has different ways of doing things and when you use 
them instead of just complaining about it not being the same then you find it 
actually out-performs and produces much better quality documents than you get 
with MS Office.  

I wish the marketing people would stop mentioning about the price and just sell 
it on performance instead.  I think we would get more people using it and using 
it properly.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  






- Original Message -
> From: Motoborg 
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 11:30
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Hide rows in a table in Writer
> 
> Needs to be a simple table in writer not an embeded calc spreadsheet.
> 
> Friend is complaining about it as he says he needs the function that he 
> had in MS Word, but can not afford the price of Word.
> 
> I can see how to hide the text but this leaves small empty rows. Would 
> need to completely hide the row as if it was not there.
> 
> Thanks for advice.
> 
> Jason.
> On 07/05/2013 11:24, Tom [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] wrote:
>>  Hi :)
>>  Lol!!  Yes, but is it an embedded Calc object or a straight table? 
>>  [shrugs]  We both covered 1 option each so one of the answers works 
>>  and the other doesn't.  My money would be on your answer but it's 
> nice 
>>  to show there is a choice imo.
>>  Regards from
>>  Tom :)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  - Original Message -
>> 
>>  > From: Brian Barker <[hidden email] 
>>  >
>>  > To: [hidden email] 
> 
>>  > Cc:
>>  > Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 3:32
>>  > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Hide rows in a table in Writer
>>  >
>>  > At 00:50 07/05/2013 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
>>  >> If the table is a spreadsheet (Calc) ...
>>  >
>>  > I wonder if the message subject gives us a clue about this ...
>>  >
>>  > Brian Barker
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > --
>>  > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email] 
>>  
>>  > Problems? 
>>  http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>>  > Posting guidelines + more: 
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>  > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>>  > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot 
>>  be deleted
>>  >
>> 
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>>  deleted
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>  If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the 
>>  discussion below:
>> 
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Hide-rows-in-a-table-in-Writer-tp4054227p4054327.html
>  
> 
>> 
>>  To unsubscribe from Hide rows in a table in Writer, click here 
>> 
> .
>>  NAML 
>> 
> 
>  
> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Thank You
> 
> Jason Davis
> Email: jsnmda...@aol.com
> Telephone: 0798-0422-792
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Most newer versions of MS Office have ODF support built-in.  Unfortunately it's 
only the 2013 and 365 that use the same version of ODF as everyone else.  2007 
and 2010 use the old 1.1 which is not great for spreadsheets!
Regards from 
Tom :)  




- Original Message -
> From: James Knott 
> To: LibreOffice 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 12:57
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO
> 
> Milos Sramek wrote:
>>  MS support of ODF
>>  will probably never be perfect.
> 
> Sun had an ODF plugin for MS Office.  I'd bet it works better than what 
> MS provides.  It's also the only option for older Office versions.
> 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] How to turn off the global menu

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think if you get LibreOffice from the 
http://www.libreoffice.org
website and then install it without the desktop integration packages then it 
forces LibreOffice to use it's own style.  I'm not sure if it's possible to 
remove desktop integration from the LibreOffice installed by default with 
Ubuntu as i have not tried it.  I suspect it might take out more than you want 
taken out

You do get used to the Apple way of doing things but it is a Pita at the start. 
 Also you can use keyboard short-cuts and the keyboard arrows to navigate those 
menus without moving the mouse arrow.  For example try 
Alt F
to open the File menu for Edit it's 
Alt E
the unpredictable one is the "Format" menu which needs 
Alt o
You can see the underlinings at the beginning of the name of the menu.  


Power users can get used to it but it helps to get "Ubuntu Tweaks" and "Unity 
Tweaks".  I keep losing track of Unity Tweaks but here's how to add the other

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:tualatrix/ppa
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install ubuntu-tweak

On the other hand you might find it better to install Cinnamon or something to 
get one of the forks of Gnome instead of sticking with Unity.  New people seem 
to really like Unity though.  

Regards from 

Tom :)  



- Original Message -
> From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster 
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 12:24
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] How to turn off the global menu
> 
> On 05/07/2013 06:48 AM, William Drago wrote:
>>  All,
>> 
>>  I am using LO 4.0.2.2 in Ubuntu with the Unity desktop. I want to turn 
>>  off the very annoying global menu and put the menu back where it 
>>  belongs. In Firefox there's a very convenient setting to enable or 
>>  disable global menu integration. Is there anything like that in LO?
>> 
>>  BTW, I don't want to get too far off topic, but can someone explain to 
>>  me why putting the menu way off on the top of the screen is better 
>>  than keeping it close to the application? Am I not using it correctly?
>> 
>>  Thanks,
>>  -Bill
>> 
> 
> I wonder if the developers added that option.
> 
> The "top of the screen menus" is a Unity feature and the developers 
> made 
> sure that LO was compliant with Unity's menu formatting.  I do not like 
> that, or Unity's menu and desktop design, so I use Ubuntu 12.04 and 
> 13.04 with MATE as the desktop environment.
> 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[James Knott]

Milos Sramek wrote:

MS support of ODF
will probably never be perfect.


Sun had an ODF plugin for MS Office.  I'd bet it works better than what 
MS provides.  It's also the only option for older Office versions.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] How to turn off the global menu

[Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

On 05/07/2013 06:48 AM, William Drago wrote:

All,

I am using LO 4.0.2.2 in Ubuntu with the Unity desktop. I want to turn 
off the very annoying global menu and put the menu back where it 
belongs. In Firefox there's a very convenient setting to enable or 
disable global menu integration. Is there anything like that in LO?


BTW, I don't want to get too far off topic, but can someone explain to 
me why putting the menu way off on the top of the screen is better 
than keeping it close to the application? Am I not using it correctly?


Thanks,
-Bill



I wonder if the developers added that option.

The "top of the screen menus" is a Unity feature and the developers made 
sure that LO was compliant with Unity's menu formatting.  I do not like 
that, or Unity's menu and desktop design, so I use Ubuntu 12.04 and 
13.04 with MATE as the desktop environment.


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[libreoffice-users] How to turn off the global menu

[William Drago]

All,

I am using LO 4.0.2.2 in Ubuntu with the Unity desktop. I 
want to turn off the very annoying global menu and put the 
menu back where it belongs. In Firefox there's a very 
convenient setting to enable or disable global menu 
integration. Is there anything like that in LO?


BTW, I don't want to get too far off topic, but can someone 
explain to me why putting the menu way off on the top of the 
screen is better than keeping it close to the application? 
Am I not using it correctly?


Thanks,
-Bill

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[libreoffice-users] Re: Hide rows in a table in Writer

[Motoborg]

Needs to be a simple table in writer not an embeded calc spreadsheet.

Friend is complaining about it as he says he needs the function that he 
had in MS Word, but can not afford the price of Word.

I can see how to hide the text but this leaves small empty rows. Would 
need to completely hide the row as if it was not there.

Thanks for advice.

Jason.
On 07/05/2013 11:24, Tom [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] wrote:
> Hi :)
> Lol!!  Yes, but is it an embedded Calc object or a straight table? 
> [shrugs]  We both covered 1 option each so one of the answers works 
> and the other doesn't.  My money would be on your answer but it's nice 
> to show there is a choice imo.
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
>
> > From: Brian Barker <[hidden email] 
> >
> > To: [hidden email] 
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 3:32
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Hide rows in a table in Writer
> >
> > At 00:50 07/05/2013 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
> >> If the table is a spreadsheet (Calc) ...
> >
> > I wonder if the message subject gives us a clue about this ...
> >
> > Brian Barker
> >
> >
> > --
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> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the 
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-- 
Thank You

Jason Davis
Email: jsnmda...@aol.com
Telephone: 0798-0422-792





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Hide rows in a table in Writer

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Lol!!  Yes, but is it an embedded Calc object or a straight table? [shrugs]  We 
both covered 1 option each so one of the answers works and the other doesn't.  
My money would be on your answer but it's nice to show there is a choice imo. 
Regards from 
Tom :)  




- Original Message -
> From: Brian Barker 
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 3:32
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Hide rows in a table in Writer
> 
> At 00:50 07/05/2013 +0100, Tom Davies wrote:
>> If the table is a spreadsheet (Calc) ...
> 
> I wonder if the message subject gives us a clue about this ...
> 
> Brian Barker
> 
> 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Get Involved with LibreOffice - No Programming Skills Needed

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Even a little helps and even if it's irregular.  That is how most of us work 
too.
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/qa-testers/
Of course some people, mostly devs, do get paid but then they are forced into 
more regular hours and forced to work on things they don't always want to.  
Since you are not paid you get to choose what you want to do and how much time 
to put in.  :)
WooHoo :)
Regards from 
Tom :)  





- Original Message -
> From: Anthony Easthope 
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 5:27
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Get Involved with LibreOffice - No 
> Programming
 Skills Needed
> 
> I'd be keen but unfortunately to much happens at my end to be of much
> use! I could try my best though. 
> 
> On Tue, 30 Apr 2013, at 10:47 PM, Joel Madero wrote:
>>  On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Tom Davies
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  > Hi :)
>>  > I thought this was a good call and wondered if anyone new is 
> interested.
>>  > It can be quite addictive tthough so take care!
>>  > Regards from
>>  > Tom :)
>>  >
>> 
>> 
>>  2 new people jumped in the room today :-D Another 10-15 is still needed
>>  but
>>  we're getting there!
>> 
>> 
>>  Best,
>>  Joel
>>  -- 
>>  *Joel Madero*
>>  LibreOffice QA Volunteer
>>  jmadero@gmail.com
>> 
>>  -- 
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>>  deleted
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Anthony Easthope
>   antiso...@myopera.com
> 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] error messages when starting

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Attachments don't reach the list :(  Can you give us a rough idea of what the 
message says?  Is it offering you the chance to "recover" a document that it 
claims was not properly closed?  If so you can generally cancel that without 
problems but it might be a good idea to make a copy of the document just in 
case.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  





- Original Message -
> From: Milind Vaze 
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 6:21
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] error messages when starting
> 
> Hello:
> 
> I installed Libreoffice 4.0.2.2 yesterday on Windows 7. The installation 
> happened properly.
> 
> But everytime when starting the spreadsheet or the wordprocessor, I get 
> the attached error messages. I say OK to to all the messages and later 
> the software works properly. I haven't yet used the software extensively.
> 
> I tried re-downloading, uninstalling and reinstalling the software a few 
> times. But the error messages keep coming.
> 
> Can anybody let me know how this can be tackled?
> 
> -- 
> Regards.
> 
> Milind Vaze.
> 
> Reprographic Ventures
> Ground Floor, Shiveshwarkar House
> 32 Parekh Street
> Mumbai 44.
> Tel. 23854288/23876044
> 
> 
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Errr, one of the classic moves from MS is to get people to do an all or nothing 
approach.  

They will try to tell you that you can't have MS Office and LibreOffice on the 
same machine.  Going that way is disastrous and requires huge amounts of 
training and leads to immense dissatisfaction.  Users hate this route and fight 
against the new toys.  

Almost every OpenSource advocate recommends keeping whichever MS Office happens 
to be on existing machines but to install LibreOffice alongside.  

After that point-of-agreement is where we all start disagreeing.  Some say to 
do something like;
1.  keep installing MS Office on newer installs of Windows or on refurbished 
machines (refurbs) but only for the first 6 months to 1 year or so
2.  let people keep using primarily MS Office but encourage them to play around 
with LibreOffice so they can figure it out for themselves
3.  Use training courses to bring 2 or a few people from each office 
up-to-speed with LibreOffice.  It helps if those individuals are the ones 
people usually seek advice from and includes the office manager.  There are 
online courses (mostly in English though and just the basics so far i think) 
but i think it's best to collect people together away from the regular office 
space and give them "proper" training.
4.  Start encouraging greater use of LibreOffice and roll out training to the 
rest of the staff.  
5.  Keep any existing versions of MS Office on machines even well into the 
future, evn if everyone has fully moved over o LibreOffice and seems happy with 
it.  Just don't install on any refurbs or newer machines.  

Some OpenSource experts recommend skipping one or 2 steps or slightly different 
order or different time-scales or even adding a step (or few) or cover it in 
more detail.  

The aim is gentle migration NOT revolution.  Give people time to adapt but not 
too much time because those older versions of MS Office get out-dated.  If 
people are to continue meeting deadlines and remain productive they need access 
to the tools they are familiar with.  They will become more familiar with 
LibreOffice but it takes time.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  





- Original Message -
> From: Tom Davies 
> To: Milos Sramek ; "users@global.libreoffice.org" 
> 
> Cc: 
> Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 10:38
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO
> 
> Hi :) 
> 
> Ok, several points;  (again just my own personal opinions which often put me 
> at 
> risk of being thrown off the mailing-lists for being too blunt) (err, and 
> i'm English not US)
> 
> 1.  To analyse you might find it better to add 2 programs into the mix.  
> 
> 
> 1.a.  On the OpenSource side perhaps Calligra/KOffice or AbiWord (AbiWord is 
> smaller and faster but Calligra is more fully featured) or any other 
> OpenSource 
> office programs.  So, just 1 of these 2 would help;
> 
> http://www.calligra-suite.org/
> http://www.abisource.com/
> 
> 
> 1.b.  On the MS side a lot of companies are still on MS Office 2003 while a 
> lot 
> of others are on MS Office 2010 now or moving to it now that 2013 has been 
> released.  It's still very rare to be using 2013 or 365 and will be for the 
> next couple of years.  Perhaps add MS Office 2003 to the analysis.  
> 
> 
> 
> Even a quick analysis between the different versions of MSO will flag up a 
> lot 
> of differences in the handling of their ooxml formats and even some in their 
> handling of their older formats.  By contrast even an in-depth analysis of 
> the 2 
> different OpenSource programs (LibreOffice and whichever other) will show 
> that 
> both Doc and Odt are handled very much the same by both OpenSource programs.  
> Also a Doc created by any OpenSource program will also look very much the 
> same 
> in both versions of MS Office.  
> 
> 
> A few people have reported that when MS Office users have troubles sharing 
> documents because the formatting has gone too strange then it's the 
> LibreOffice user that is able to fix it so that all 3 sides can read it the 
> same 
> way.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.  So, during the migration and for external communications in the near(ish) 
> future you will see that it is best to use the older MS formats
> 
> Doc, Xls, Ppt
> 
> and so on.  NOT the ooxml ones.  
> 
> DocX, XlsX, PptX
> 
> The ISO standard as registered with the ISO committees does NOT seem to be 
> the 
> same as any of  their implementations of it.  I guess they have a legitimate 
> argument in saying that "accidents happen", as they tried to use in 
> the court-case over their RTF (=Rich Text Format).  Actually even if you 
> decide 
> to stick with MS then it's still probably better to use the older formats 
> for greater interoperability even between the different versions of MS Office 
> (even between 2007, 2010, 2013 & 365).  In the mid-term future an increasing 
> number of external people will be using ODF but it's a little way off yet.  
> I think almost every single one of the responses ag

Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[Tom Davies]

Hi :) 

Ok, several points;  (again just my own personal opinions which often put me at 
risk of being thrown off the mailing-lists for being too blunt) (err, and i'm 
English not US)

1.  To analyse you might find it better to add 2 programs into the mix.  


1.a.  On the OpenSource side perhaps Calligra/KOffice or AbiWord (AbiWord is 
smaller and faster but Calligra is more fully featured) or any other OpenSource 
office programs.  So, just 1 of these 2 would help;

http://www.calligra-suite.org/
http://www.abisource.com/


1.b.  On the MS side a lot of companies are still on MS Office 2003 while a lot 
of others are on MS Office 2010 now or moving to it now that 2013 has been 
released.  It's still very rare to be using 2013 or 365 and will be for the 
next couple of years.  Perhaps add MS Office 2003 to the analysis.  



Even a quick analysis between the different versions of MSO will flag up a lot 
of differences in the handling of their ooxml formats and even some in their 
handling of their older formats.  By contrast even an in-depth analysis of the 
2 different OpenSource programs (LibreOffice and whichever other) will show 
that both Doc and Odt are handled very much the same by both OpenSource 
programs.  Also a Doc created by any OpenSource program will also look very 
much the same in both versions of MS Office.  


A few people have reported that when MS Office users have troubles sharing 
documents because the formatting has gone too strange then it's the LibreOffice 
user that is able to fix it so that all 3 sides can read it the same way.  




2.  So, during the migration and for external communications in the near(ish) 
future you will see that it is best to use the older MS formats

Doc, Xls, Ppt

and so on.  NOT the ooxml ones.  

DocX, XlsX, PptX

The ISO standard as registered with the ISO committees does NOT seem to be the 
same as any of  their implementations of it.  I guess they have a legitimate 
argument in saying that "accidents happen", as they tried to use in the 
court-case over their RTF (=Rich Text Format).  Actually even if you decide to 
stick with MS then it's still probably better to use the older formats for 
greater interoperability even between the different versions of MS Office (even 
between 2007, 2010, 2013 & 365).  In the mid-term future an increasing number 
of external people will be using ODF but it's a little way off yet.  I think 
almost every single one of the responses agreed on using the older formats for 
greater interoperability.  


3. Are you only getting advice from MS about the migration?  Do you have people 
from the Free Software Foundation involved in the process?  If you are only 
accepting advice from MS then their lack of understanding about OpenSource will 
typically steer you into as many problems as they can manage to find.  That 
would explain your current difficulties.  We have seen this over and over 
again.  

4.  The promise from MS sounds good BUT if it would be that easy for them then 
why haven't they done it already?  Why don't they just do it rather than make 
promises which may or may not happen?  In the case of the RTF court cases it 
seemed that MS were better at making promises and blaming other people than 
actually delivering the results they promised.  For a successful migration you 
need to involve OpenSource experts such as the people at FSF.  

Actually the "lining up" issue looks like a styles or a fonts thing to me, but 
any editable format is going to look different on different machines or in 
different programs.  It's only Pdf that is meant to look the same on all and 
the main reason for that is that it is not meant to be editable and is meant to 
ignore all local conditions.  Just because fonts have the same name doesn't 
mean they are identical.  



I think there are 2 ways of generating Pdfs in LibreOffice.  

1.  File - "Export to Pdf" or "Save as" 

2.  File - Print - "to file" and change the format from ".Ps" to ".Pdf"
The 2nd way embeds the fonts into the document.  The first way has more 
flexibility about the configurations&settings used in the Pdf, such as if you 
want it to be improved for screen-readers or have different amounts of, or type 
of, compression (do you want a lot of swirls and a very light-weight document 
for emailing or do you want it print-quality).  The 2nd way is not easy to 
find&use.  



I hope this helps!
Regards from 

Tom :)  


>
> From: Milos Sramek 
>To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013, 8:28
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO
> 
>
>
>Hi,
>
>thank you all for your answers. In fact I take part in a larger scale
>testing of interoperability of formats, since open source software is
>currently considered by Slovak administration as and alternative to the
>standard MS stuff. If everything goes really well, there will be a
>transition period when open source (say, LO) and proprietary
>applications will

Re: [libreoffice-users] Compatibility LO/MSO

[Milos Sramek]

Hi,

thank you all for your answers. In fact I take part in a larger scale
testing of interoperability of formats, since open source software is
currently considered by Slovak administration as and alternative to the
standard MS stuff. If everything goes really well, there will be a
transition period when open source (say, LO) and proprietary
applications will be used in parallel and documents in various formats
will be interchanged. Therefore, we want to understand the situation and
prepare a guide (use this feature, avoid that feature), which would help
in creating documents which can safely be opened by the other tool.

I am aware of the fact that "open" standards like OOXML, which are
more-or-less in hands of only one company (even if it is an ISO
standard) will always be a problem. Simultaneously, MS support of ODF
will probably never be perfect. But a state administration does not need
complex features and formatting - therefore we want to prepare the guide
which would tell them, what is safe to use.

The discrepancies between rendering of odt and docx files by the other
applications are really big. Jean-Francois pointed to "Styles. Or lack
of. " I've heard this also from other people. So, is it really possible,
that a program, when opening a document, applies some additional
formating, which can change appearance in comparison to the original?
Should this be considered as a bug, or is it a feature (which can be
eventually switched off) ?

As an example I created a simple document in LO40 (MS2013), stored as
odt (docx) and opened and printed in MS2013 (LO40) :
http://ubuntuone.com/1lkbhsT9veT24B9a9jPUpr
In the pdf (overlay of rendering in bork applications) you can see that
the major difference resides in interline spacing. Do you have and idea,
where is  the reason?
ODF 1.1 and OOXML transitional were used, the used fonts were available
on both computers. Line spacing does not seem to be a big issue, but one
can see inconsistent line spacing nearly everywhere. So, from the point
of view of interoperability it is perhaps a blocker, since the
displacement is sometimes a couple of lines per page.

If this is a bug in LO I will file a bug in its Bugzilla. If it is a bug
in MS2013, we will ask MS to correct that (there is a guy from Microsoft
in our team who promised to do that). If they do not correct it, it will
be a nice argument against using MSO at all.

I will be grateful for each advice on how to analyze the problem and how
to sort out the reason.

With best regards
Milos

Dňa 06.05.2013 18:31, Regina Henschel wrote / napísal(a):

Hi Milos,

Milos Sramek schrieb:

Hi,

I observe that LibreOffice and MS Office display even simple documents,
containing just a few paragraphs with numbered and bulleted lists,
differently. These differences are from both sides: a document is
created in LO, stored in odf and opened in MSO (2013)


Do you mean, that you write to .odt and open the document then in
MSO-2013?

Are you writing with ODF1.2 or with ODF 1.2 extended? In case of ODF
1.2 extended, you cannot expect that MSO can read it the same way,
because is might contain parts which are specific to LO.

Do you write and reopen the document on the same machine? Otherwise
make sure, that you have installed the same fonts on both machines.

 and vice versa:

created in MSO, stored in docx and opened in LO.

I would like to understand the situation and to know
- if it is just a bug (perhaps on both sides)
- if some standard local settings are applied, which result in different
display
- if it is a fundamental problem residing deep in the ODF and OOXML
standards


If one application writes ODF (without extended) and another
application reads this file and shows it with large differences, then
there might be errors in the application, but it can be shortcomings
in the specification as well. In such cases you should provide sample
documents and detailed descriptions, so that it is possible to
investigate.

Kind regards
Regina




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Re: [libreoffice-users] gettextfields

[Vieri]

--- On Mon, 5/6/13, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak  wrote:

> On 05/06/2013 05:21 AM, Vieri wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I have an odt writer document with 2 input text fields
> (added with the form designer toolbar). I manually type text
> into one of the fields. I copy/pasted a macro to see if I
> could grab the text within the input field but haven't had
> any luck. This is the test macro in Basic:
> > 
> > Sub EnumerateFields
> >    vEnum =
> ThisComponent.getTextFields().createEnumeration()
> >    If Not IsNull(vEnum) Then
> >      If vEnum.hasMoreElements() Then
> >        Print "OK"
> >      Else
> >        Print "NOT OK"
> >      End If
> >    End If
> > End Sub
> > 
> > If I manually run this macro I get the "NOT OK"
> message.
> > 
> > What am I doing wrong?
> > What is the correct way of getting the text field
> elements?
> > 
> > Thanks
> > 
> > Vieri
> > 
> > 
> 
> I grabbed these two routines from my test modules without
> running them first

Hi,

Thanks for the reply but I'm still having trouble.
I'm either way off-course, misusing LO or making a dumb rookie mistake.

I copied your macros to my odt document.
I then did a "tools, macros, run macro..." and selected the Subs I copied.
If I run EnumerateTextFields then it yields the "Finished" message box (nothing 
else).
If I run DisplayMasterFields then it yields the following message:

===Text Field Masters===
(com.sun.star.text.fieldmaster.SetExpression.Illustration,Illustration)
(com.sun.star.text.fieldmaster.SetExpression.Table,Table)
(com.sun.star.text.fieldmaster.SetExpression.Text,Text)
(com.sun.star.text.fieldmaster.SetExpression.Drawing,Drawing)

My odt document has 2 input fields in a form.

By the way, if I place a button within my form and configure the "Mouse button 
pressed" to launch, say, EnumerateTextFields then I get the following error 
message:
"LibreOffice 4.0.2.2 BASIC runtime error. '423' getTextFields" and it points at 
the line:
"oEnum = oDoc.getTextFields().createEnumeration()"

I'm stuck on something that should be quite simple.
I'm attaching my odt file hoping that someone can tell me what novice mistake 
I'm making.

Thanks,

Vieri

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[libreoffice-users] error messages when starting

[Milind Vaze]

Hello:

I installed Libreoffice 4.0.2.2 yesterday on Windows 7. The installation 
happened properly.


But everytime when starting the spreadsheet or the wordprocessor, I get 
the below mentioned error messages. After saying OK to to all the 
messages the software works properly. I haven't yet used the software 
extensively.


I tried re-downloading, uninstalling and reinstalling the software a few 
times. But the error messages keep coming.


Can anybody let me know how this can be tackled?

Error messages:

1. Error loading BASIC of document
   
file:///C:/Program%20Files/LibreOffice%204.0/program/../share/basic/Launcher/script.xlb/:
   General Error.
   General input/output error.
2. Error loading BASIC of document
   
file:///C:/Program%20Files/LibreOffice%204.0/program/../share/basic/Schedule/script.xlb/:
   General Error.
   General input/output error.
3. Error loading BASIC of document
   
file:///C:/Program%20Files/LibreOffice%204.0/program/../share/basic/Launcher/dialog.xlb/:
   General Error.
   General input/output error.
4. Error loading BASIC of document
   
file:///C:/Program%20Files/LibreOffice%204.0/program/../share/basic/Schedule/dialog.xlb/:
   General Error.
   General input/output error.

--
Regards.

Milind Vaze.

Reprographic Ventures
Ground Floor, Shiveshwarkar House
32 Parekh Street
Mumbai 44.
Tel. 23854288/23876044


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