Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Ken,

Le 05.11.2015 11:24, Ken Springer a écrit :

On 11/5/15 12:12 AM, toki wrote:

On 05/11/2015 04:24, Ken Springer wrote:

While some bug may be deemed trivial by the devs or some system, that 
bug may not be trivial to the user.


That is why individuals and organization purchase Tier 3 support
contracts. It does matter if the software is FLOSS, or non-FLOSS, the
only way to ensure that issues that the user considers to be serious
flaws/bugs, is by either fixing the issue themselves, or paying 
somebody

to fix the issue.


Or by going elsewhere, using someone else's product.  :-)



Of course, especially given that LibreOffice is not a product but a 
community. A product comes with warranties and things such as support 
contract. It also comes with a price tag. That being said, nobody's 
working for free; do you? Using someone else's products will require 
them at some point to purchase something (a license, a support contract, 
etc.)


Cheers,

Charles.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Philip Jackson]

On 05/11/15 04:21, Steve Edmonds wrote:
> I use an external PDF writer for some documents where LO fails to
> convert vector formats correctly.
> That said, if I use the external converter I loose all my cross
> referencing and TOC links that LO does very well in my opinion.
> Steve

I have used export to pdf in LO Writer and always had a good pdf copy
but the TOC links never work in the pdf version.  I've tried the
different options under the links tab in the export to pdf dialogue but
can't find any difference whatever the options selected.

I'm using LO 4.2.8.2 as supplied by UbuntuStudio 1404.  For reading the
pdf's, I use Okular.

Does the use/performance of TOC links in the pdf depend on the reader ?

Philip

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[libreoffice-users] Re: LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Ken Springer]

On 11/5/15 12:12 AM, toki wrote:

On 05/11/2015 04:24, Ken Springer wrote:


While some bug may be deemed trivial by the devs or some system, that bug may 
not be trivial to the user.


That is why individuals and organization purchase Tier 3 support
contracts. It does matter if the software is FLOSS, or non-FLOSS, the
only way to ensure that issues that the user considers to be serious
flaws/bugs, is by either fixing the issue themselves, or paying somebody
to fix the issue.


Or by going elsewhere, using someone else's product.  :-)


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
 and it's gone!"


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Re: [libreoffice-users] lost opportunity

[Gabriele Ponzo]

Marianne, it's really strange since I use to install LO on a daily basis on
M$ Windows as well, and not having any issue.

I don't know if it's a mirrored files issue or if it's something on -that-
computer, as it happens now and then that Windows has strange (at least)
behaviors.

My suggestion is to to have a Pen Drive dedicated to software installations
and deployments with tested files on which you can rely on. This way gives
you the sureness that the problem is on the customer's computer side.

Anyway I believe it's not all lost since at least she'll be using ODF
format and whenever You'll want to try convincing her to migrate to LO, the
impact will be much softer. The most is done when leaving M$O.

I hope to have been helpful somehow, at least for the future.

Bye.

---
Gabriele Ponzo

2015-11-05 12:03 GMT+01:00 Charles-H. Schulz <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org>:

> Hello Marianne,
>
>
> Le 05.11.2015 08:42, marianne-x a écrit :
>
>> A minor tale of woe:
>>
>> I have been trying for years to convince a young lady friend to break
>> away from slavish dependence upon Micro$oft, and at least give LO, et.
>> al,, a try.
>>
>> Her Curtains machine, running on Vista, finally got so clogged with
>> untraceable trash that a complete system reload seemed the only
>> remedy.
>>
>> That meant re-authorizing the bundled M$ office suite and Bill,
>> apparently continuing his unholy lust for revenue, refused to accept
>> her utterly legitimate "product key".
>>
>> What a chance to gain a convert but, alas, LO queered the deal once again.
>>
>> I downloaded the software at least 6 times, mostly from the Clarkson
>> U. mirror where TDF sends one by default, but from at least one other
>> mirror as well.
>>
>> 4.4.6 three times, 218,736 KB each; 4.4.5 at 219,300 KB; 5.0.3 twice
>> at 215,632 KB each. None of these would install, or give any
>> indication of why they wouldn't.
>>
>> Readers may assume that my procedure is at fault, and it may well be,
>> but after these failures I had no trouble fetching and successfully
>> installing AOO, Abiword, Jarte, HexEdit, Foxit, Firefox, Thunderbird,
>> Audacity, 
>>
>> I have a number of LO .msi files, going back to 3.5.4, on my own
>> machines (all Curtains 7), and can try transporting them to the target
>> via an external drive, in case there is actually something squirrelly
>> about today's downloads.
>>
>> But, after this experience, the would-be client - fearful of change in
>> any case - can be excused for looking askance at LO, and may be a lost
>> cause.
>>
>> For my own edification, even if there's no salvaging today's fiasco,
>> does anybody have any suggestions as to how such a supposedly
>> foolproof process can go so far awry?
>>
>
>
> It's a shame indeed. I don't know if it's really lost though: perhaps you
> could reinstall LibreOffice for her if there's a working mirror - few
> people experience what your have gone through and I don't really know what
> went wrong with this particular server.
> My personal suggestion would be to ping us (this list,
> http://ask.libreoffice.org or even our twitter account (@libreoffice or
> @tdforg) or directly try a different mirror.
>
> Also, I'm curious to know what operating system you replaced her existing
> system with. It looks like you didn't want to migrate the person on Linux.
> If this had been the case, you would probably not have had to download all
> these software for her - but a migration to Linux may cause issues as well.
>
> Thank you for helping out this person!
>
> Best,
>
> Charles.
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-users] lost opportunity

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Marianne,

Le 05.11.2015 08:42, marianne-x a écrit :

A minor tale of woe:

I have been trying for years to convince a young lady friend to break
away from slavish dependence upon Micro$oft, and at least give LO, et.
al,, a try.

Her Curtains machine, running on Vista, finally got so clogged with
untraceable trash that a complete system reload seemed the only
remedy.

That meant re-authorizing the bundled M$ office suite and Bill,
apparently continuing his unholy lust for revenue, refused to accept
her utterly legitimate "product key".

What a chance to gain a convert but, alas, LO queered the deal once 
again.


I downloaded the software at least 6 times, mostly from the Clarkson
U. mirror where TDF sends one by default, but from at least one other
mirror as well.

4.4.6 three times, 218,736 KB each; 4.4.5 at 219,300 KB; 5.0.3 twice
at 215,632 KB each. None of these would install, or give any
indication of why they wouldn't.

Readers may assume that my procedure is at fault, and it may well be,
but after these failures I had no trouble fetching and successfully
installing AOO, Abiword, Jarte, HexEdit, Foxit, Firefox, Thunderbird,
Audacity, 

I have a number of LO .msi files, going back to 3.5.4, on my own
machines (all Curtains 7), and can try transporting them to the target
via an external drive, in case there is actually something squirrelly
about today's downloads.

But, after this experience, the would-be client - fearful of change in
any case - can be excused for looking askance at LO, and may be a lost
cause.

For my own edification, even if there's no salvaging today's fiasco,
does anybody have any suggestions as to how such a supposedly
foolproof process can go so far awry?



It's a shame indeed. I don't know if it's really lost though: perhaps 
you could reinstall LibreOffice for her if there's a working mirror - 
few people experience what your have gone through and I don't really 
know what went wrong with this particular server.
My personal suggestion would be to ping us (this list, 
http://ask.libreoffice.org or even our twitter account (@libreoffice or 
@tdforg) or directly try a different mirror.


Also, I'm curious to know what operating system you replaced her 
existing system with. It looks like you didn't want to migrate the 
person on Linux. If this had been the case, you would probably not have 
had to download all these software for her - but a migration to Linux 
may cause issues as well.


Thank you for helping out this person!

Best,

Charles.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Philip Jackson]

Sure, the whole of my LO document is style based and the TOC links work
great inside the LO document. But not in the exported pdf document. So I
probably didn't understand something.

Philip

On 05/11/15 14:52, Gabriele Ponzo wrote:
> Maybe, but make sure using styles to have a result ;)
> 
> ---
> Gabriele Ponzo
> 
> 2015-11-05 14:17 GMT+01:00 Philip Jackson :
> 
>> On 05/11/15 04:21, Steve Edmonds wrote:
>>> I use an external PDF writer for some documents where LO fails to
>>> convert vector formats correctly.
>>> That said, if I use the external converter I loose all my cross
>>> referencing and TOC links that LO does very well in my opinion.
>>> Steve
>>
>> I have used export to pdf in LO Writer and always had a good pdf copy
>> but the TOC links never work in the pdf version.  I've tried the
>> different options under the links tab in the export to pdf dialogue but
>> can't find any difference whatever the options selected.
>>
>> I'm using LO 4.2.8.2 as supplied by UbuntuStudio 1404.  For reading the
>> pdf's, I use Okular.
>>
>> Does the use/performance of TOC links in the pdf depend on the reader ?
>>
>> Philip
>>
>> --
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>>
> 


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Just for the general information of the list, professional support is 
available for LibreOffice: 
https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/professional-support/
... As well as what this list and other channels are used for, community 
support:  https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/community-support/


Best,

Charles.


Le 05.11.2015 16:36, jorge a écrit :

Hi all:

As I understand LO has an area of support buying it,... I'm not sure.
Or someone here can give him support trying agree price in a private
way ... try to help him if someone has time and knowledge; is my
suggestion.

LO has Merchandise, hansn't it ? What is their funtion if not sell
something ?

Regards,

Jorge Rodríguez




El jue, 05-11-2015 a las 11:49 +0100, Charles-H. Schulz escribió:

Hello Ken,

Le 05.11.2015 11:24, Ken Springer a écrit :
> On 11/5/15 12:12 AM, toki wrote:
>> On 05/11/2015 04:24, Ken Springer wrote:
>>
>>> While some bug may be deemed trivial by the devs or some system, that
>>> bug may not be trivial to the user.
>>
>> That is why individuals and organization purchase Tier 3 support
>> contracts. It does matter if the software is FLOSS, or non-FLOSS, the
>> only way to ensure that issues that the user considers to be serious
>> flaws/bugs, is by either fixing the issue themselves, or paying
>> somebody
>> to fix the issue.
>
> Or by going elsewhere, using someone else's product.  :-)
>

Of course, especially given that LibreOffice is not a product but a
community. A product comes with warranties and things such as support
contract. It also comes with a price tag. That being said, nobody's
working for free; do you? Using someone else's products will require
them at some point to purchase something (a license, a support 
contract,

etc.)

Cheers,

Charles.



--
Atentamente,

Jorge Rodríguez



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Re: [libreoffice-users] LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Gabriele Ponzo]

This is really strange… Please try using "evince" as reader and let us know.

---
Gabriele Ponzo

2015-11-05 18:03 GMT+01:00 Philip Jackson :

> Sure, the whole of my LO document is style based and the TOC links work
> great inside the LO document. But not in the exported pdf document. So I
> probably didn't understand something.
>
> Philip
>
> On 05/11/15 14:52, Gabriele Ponzo wrote:
> > Maybe, but make sure using styles to have a result ;)
> >
> > ---
> > Gabriele Ponzo
> >
> > 2015-11-05 14:17 GMT+01:00 Philip Jackson :
> >
> >> On 05/11/15 04:21, Steve Edmonds wrote:
> >>> I use an external PDF writer for some documents where LO fails to
> >>> convert vector formats correctly.
> >>> That said, if I use the external converter I loose all my cross
> >>> referencing and TOC links that LO does very well in my opinion.
> >>> Steve
> >>
> >> I have used export to pdf in LO Writer and always had a good pdf copy
> >> but the TOC links never work in the pdf version.  I've tried the
> >> different options under the links tab in the export to pdf dialogue but
> >> can't find any difference whatever the options selected.
> >>
> >> I'm using LO 4.2.8.2 as supplied by UbuntuStudio 1404.  For reading the
> >> pdf's, I use Okular.
> >>
> >> Does the use/performance of TOC links in the pdf depend on the reader ?
> >>
> >> Philip
> >>
> >> --
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> >> deleted
> >>
> >
>
>
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[libreoffice-users] Re: LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Ken Springer]

On 11/5/15 3:49 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

Hello Ken,

Le 05.11.2015 11:24, Ken Springer a écrit :

On 11/5/15 12:12 AM, toki wrote:

On 05/11/2015 04:24, Ken Springer wrote:


While some bug may be deemed trivial by the devs or some system, that
bug may not be trivial to the user.


That is why individuals and organization purchase Tier 3 support
contracts. It does matter if the software is FLOSS, or non-FLOSS, the
only way to ensure that issues that the user considers to be serious
flaws/bugs, is by either fixing the issue themselves, or paying
somebody
to fix the issue.


Or by going elsewhere, using someone else's product.  :-)



Of course, especially given that LibreOffice is not a product but a
community. A product comes with warranties and things such as support
contract. It also comes with a price tag. That being said, nobody's
working for free; do you? Using someone else's products will require
them at some point to purchase something (a license, a support contract,
etc.)


OK, folks...  We're going down the same path we did a couple years ago, 
and I'm not disagreeing with any of it, which most seem to not understand.


There is a group, or at least was, in the LO community that wants/wanted 
to push LO as a viable alternative to MS Office.  And you have a group 
with the perspective of "we fix what we want to fix".


My point is, you can't have both positions and be truly successful.  If 
you want to be a true viable alternative to MS Office, then you have to 
fix bugs important to users, not just the bugs you want to fix.  That's 
it, OK?  Which is what I said in my reply to Joel.


To paraphrase a line in a previous post of mine, I want a piece of 
software that works, not software that needs work.  :-)  I'm not a 
programmer, I don't have money to pay to have it fixed (one of the 
reasons I try to use open source/free software), I'm not anyone's beta 
tester.   


Which is why I've just started trying FreeOffice from Softmaker.  Do I 
know for a fact it will do what I need?  No, that's why I'm trying it 
out. If FreeOffice doesn't do it, there are others to try.   :-)



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
 and it's gone!"


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[libreoffice-users] Re: LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Ken Springer]

On 11/5/15 10:25 AM, Gabriele Ponzo wrote:

2015-11-05 17:20 GMT+01:00 Ken Springer :


I don't have money to pay to have it fixed (one of the reasons I try to
use open source/free software),



That should be the last reason to choose Open Source Software… I can
understand it, since it was the same for me in the far 90's, but sooner or
later you should go deeper and try understanding the principles behind OSS.


I'm retired, and thanks to the economic crash, I now have to watch the 
money spent, plus work part time.


I also volunteer for a local social services agency, and I often 
refurbished donated computers which are then given to people who need 
but can't afford a computer.  Many of these people are essentially 
computer illiterate.  So I need software that I can have faith in will 
cause them the least amount of trouble.


The principles of OSS are not the issue at my end, although it appears 
people seem to think so.  Performance and trusting things needed will be 
fixed are.  :-)



I'm not anyone's beta tester.   


So you'd want a perfect product, without paying money nor time to commit

somehow (just like beta testing or translating or whatever else commitment)?


I don't expect any of it to be perfect.  But I don't have the time to 
identify a problem, track down the cause or believed cause, and then 
file a report.





Which is why I've just started trying FreeOffice from Softmaker.  Do I
know for a fact it will do what I need?  No, that's why I'm trying it out.
If FreeOffice doesn't do it, there are others to try.   :-)



Well, maybe you'll find a free "product" that suites your needs, possibly
not open, so that you'll be locked in its own encoding cage.


Do you know how to fix your car?  TV?  Refrigerator?  You're locked into 
that "cage" too.  Maybe I will find something that is what I'm looking 
for.  I've sure bought enough stuff over the years looking for something 
that does what I want it to do.  I might end up liking FreeOffice enough 
I'll buy the paid version.



Please respect people of the community and avoid insulting with your
requirements about taking without giving anything back.


If you don't consider pointing out the opposing and incompatible 
viewpoints within the LO community as giving back, that's something I 
have no control over.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
 and it's gone!"


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Re: [libreoffice-users] lost opportunity

[Gabriele Ponzo]

>
> […]
>
> Besides, if I failed to pull off a
>> simple install of LO on a virgin-system machine,
>
>
It was not a virgin system, because OEM images are full of "suggested"
softwares…


> what chance would I have with Linux?
>
>
Many more, since it installs flawless and brings LO along with the system,
and also keeps it updated like every other software distributed with it
(that's why Linux Distributions are called so ;).

[…]

>
> As said, if the fault is truly in all the many downloads of yesterday,
> then transporting by external drive one or more of the 21
> earlier-edition installers still available on this Curtains 7 machine
> should work. However, I suspect that some negative synergy twixt LO
> and Vista has reared its ugly head here.
>

As written, more than a Vista & LO issue (which can happen anyway) I tend
to believe to some LO & some other vendor's bundled stuff issue.

>Yes indeed. I just checked the mirrors you mentioned. I clicked on each of
them, and each of them worked, and worked well.
>Maybe there's an issue with the browser? At least today, right now, these
mirrors are fully working.

Or, indeed, maybe also some malware or virus is corrupting images
downloaded.
Did you try MD5 checksum? And what about downloading via Torrent?

By the way, just for curiosity, what was the error returned by the
installer?
---
Gabriele Ponzo

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Re: [libreoffice-users] lost opportunity

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Marianne,

Le 05.11.2015 16:38, marianne-x a écrit :

List Ahoy:

Charles Schulz wrote: "Also, I'm curious to know what operating system
you replaced her existing system with."
The original was Vista, and the replacement was Vista. The easiest
path, since everything was right there in a recovery partition on the
hard drive.

"It looks like you didn't want to migrate the person on Linux."
I don't think you appreciate the depth of resistance to change on the
part of the technologically timid. Besides, if I failed to pull off a
simple install of LO on a virgin-system machine, what chance would I
have with Linux? It was also necessary to re-load the original bundled
M$ software, even if only to allow exporting the data trapped in
Outlook's .pst file to Thunderbird.


Of course - I just wanted to understand the background a bit better.



" perhaps you could reinstall LibreOffice for her if there's a
working mirror "
" what went wrong with this particular server."
As I said, I fetched LO from at least 2 different mirrors, and I would
now expand that to "at least 3", since 5.0.3 apparently defaulted to
the University of Texas. Are you suggesting an epidemic amongst them?
And, for what it's worth, I found it hard to locate and connect with
the download sites on non-default mirrors. None of the home pages of
any of the institutions that TDF lists as mirrors showed any obvious
path to their download departments, and by just using the links listed
no control was afforded.

As said, if the fault is truly in all the many downloads of yesterday,
then transporting by external drive one or more of the 21
earlier-edition installers still available on this Curtains 7 machine
should work. However, I suspect that some negative synergy twixt LO
and Vista has reared its ugly head here.


Yes indeed. I just checked the mirrors you mentioned. I clicked on each 
of them, and each of them worked, and worked well.
Maybe there's an issue with the browser? At least today, right now, 
these mirrors are fully working.


best,

Charles.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Gabriele Ponzo]

2015-11-05 17:20 GMT+01:00 Ken Springer :

> I don't have money to pay to have it fixed (one of the reasons I try to
> use open source/free software),
>

That should be the last reason to choose Open Source Software… I can
understand it, since it was the same for me in the far 90's, but sooner or
later you should go deeper and try understanding the principles behind OSS.

I'm not anyone's beta tester.   
>
> So you'd want a perfect product, without paying money nor time to commit
somehow (just like beta testing or translating or whatever else commitment)?


> Which is why I've just started trying FreeOffice from Softmaker.  Do I
> know for a fact it will do what I need?  No, that's why I'm trying it out.
>If FreeOffice doesn't do it, there are others to try.   :-)
>

Well, maybe you'll find a free "product" that suites your needs, possibly
not open, so that you'll be locked in its own encoding cage.

Please respect people of the community and avoid insulting with your
requirements about taking without giving anything back.
---
Gabriele Ponzo

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[libreoffice-users] Re: PC Magazine Comments about LibreOffice

[CVAlkan]

In response to Bastián and Charles:

To Bastián: It isn't clear whether “author” in your reply “whimsical and
uninformed comments from the author” referred to the author of the PC
Magazine (and this is certainly a Windows-centric publication) article or
the author of the posting (me), but no matter. I hope I'm whimsical,
although both Mr. Mendelson (whom I've never met, by the way) and I have
been using word processors since pre-DOS days. I've been reading his reviews
and other articles since the mid-eighties. We may both be “wrong” but I
don't really believe either of us is uninformed.

I should point out, however, that your listing of “some articles with facts
showing quality and low error” all discuss 'code quality' as opposed to
'application quality' – often related, but not at all the same thing. To
provide a simple example, suppose that someone writes a snippet of code to
add two integers together: we can consider at least three outcomes when
reviewing this code:

1) The code provides wrong answers, and has a significant memory leak;
2) The code provides correct answers, but has a significant memory leak;
3) The code provides correct answers and any memory leaks have been
corrected or never existed.

Providing the correct answer would be a measure of 'application quality',
while avoiding memory leaks would be a measure of 'code quality.'

The articles you reference deal (in my silly example) only with the question
of code quality (the memory leak). And, yes, it is generally acknowledged by
everyone that the TDF team has made enormous strides in this regard. But
this is only tangentially related to 'application quality' (which also
includes a variety of things like “usability,” “documentation,”
“interoperability” and a host of other factors.

Another thing to consider is somewhat more intangible, and descends into
what might be closer to opinion than measurement: since any reviewer would
suspect that the code described above is redundant (one would assume that a
library call to add two integers is available), the application in which my
mythical code exists might well be architecturally deficient. That may or
may not be a flaw depending on your opinion, but such things, e.g.
unnecessary redundancy, certainly don't promote quality.

But, although (as I said) I don't agree with Mr. Mendelson's
characterization (that LibreOffice is unstable), it seems to me he is
discussing the “correct answer” portion of the code example I give – which
is appropriate for his audience, most of whom wouldn't have the foggiest
idea what a memory leak was and wouldn't notice the effects of such a thing
until the inevitable crash. And, for many users, connecting the crash to a
specific memory leak might never happen. In fact, the articles you reference
point to the reasons why the software is more stable now than when TDF began
attacking it. As you say, there is “still much more to do” but I have to
think that the steps taken so far are/were exactly the right way to begin.

To Charles:

With regard to specific use cases in which Writer specifically is
inadequate, I'll refer you to
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92655 for one very
narrow example: that of using multiple languages simultaneously in a single
document. There are two very detailed pdf documents attached to that closed
bug report which detail the issues. I freely acknowledge that multi-lingual
documents are a “fringe” use case, and I also know for a fact that many of
the difficulties I describe go back to some of the original Star* code
(great-grandparent of the current LibreOffice code base). Nonetheless, there
is still much potential design and development that could be done. For this
SPECIFIC use case, MS Word just happens to be much better than Writer. Even
AbiWord is superior in this regard, although it doesn't hold a candle to
LO-Writer in most other areas.

My main quibble with the whole idea of a consumer magazine comparing
LibreOffice to MS-Office is that these applications are designed and
developed in utterly different ways and with entirely different financial
models. As I said, however one chooses to compare them, *most* people are
getting a much, much better deal with LibreOffice (all things considered).

Also, I would point out that for some period of time I lost the capability
of reading my old Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheets, WordPerfect wpg graphics, etc.
until LibreOffice added these. I'm not convinced that any of my particular
spreadsheets from those days are worth preserving for prosperity, but I'll
bet that this is a boon for some organizations, and certainly isn't
something you'll get with Microsoft Office.

AND YET ANOTHER REVIEW:

For yet another take on LibreOffice 5.x, there is a review on page 19 of the
October 2015 issue of Linux Format Magazine by Shasank Sharma. Mr. Sharma's
review is more specific and informative, and gives the suite an overall
rating of 8/10. His summary at the end reads “A polished must-have upgrade

Re: [libreoffice-users] PC Magazine Comments about LibreOffice

[Mark Rousell]

On 04/11/2015 20:58, CVAlkan wrote:
> “Although Office 2016 as a whole towers over its competition, it isn't the
> best at everything. LibreOffice 5 is a free and open-source suite, so
> governments and security-conscious organizations can use it without worrying
> about what might be hidden inside Microsoft's code – but it's also clumsy
> and unstable.”
>
> “Clumsy” seems to me to be a matter of what one is used to (i.e. de gustibus
> non disputandum as Horace said), and Mr. Mendelson doesn't explain what he
> means by “unstable” (it's of course easy to find “bugs,” but I consider
> “unstable” to suggest frequent crashes, which I haven't experienced or heard
> about).

I've not read the article but I have to say that LibreOffice 5.0.1.2 has
been a little unstable for me in every day use. For me, "every day" use
includes mainly letters and labels, and I've seen a number of crashes. I
didn't see this on V4.

As for "clumsy", there are some features of LibreOffice that could be in
my opinion described as clumsy in comparison to certain competitors
(e.g. MS Office). All of the points below are in 5.0.1.2.

In Writer, one such example is the way that you can't get real time
previews of what changes to things like styles, fonts, text size,
colours, etc. will look like to existing text. The way that Word does
this is very handy and *in* *comparison* LibreOffice Writer feels
rather... well, clumsy. If you can get real time previews in LibreOffice
Writer please do let me know. (I note that Calc *can* do this for fonts
but not for text size, colours, or anything else that I've noticed).

Another way in which LibreOffice could be said to feel a bit clumsy is
editing of multi-line cells in Calc. Even if the text in the cell is
bottom aligned, when you edit it the text pops up to the top of the
cell. In other words, when editing you are not getting WYSIWYG. One can
live with it but it's a bit annoying. One could even call it... clumsy.

Another oddity is that the user cannot correct the spelling of
misspelled words in multi-line cells in Calc using the right-click menu.
The automatic spell checker will recognise and red underline misspelled
words in multi-line cells but there is no way to use the right-click
menu to correct them. It works fine in single-line cells, though. (You
can still spell check the entire document with 'Tools|Spelling...' of
course but that's not the point here). One might reasonably call this
annoying little oddity... clumsy.

Oh, another oddity that I've just noticed is that when there is a
misspelled word (underlined in red) on the bottom line of a
bottom-aligned multi-line cell in Calc, then when you edit that cell and
the text pops up to the top of the cell for editing, part of the red
underlining remains, somehow orphaned in the cell border at the bottom
of the cell! This is only a visual annoyance but it does look
clumsy, one might say, in comparison to, say, MS Office.

Another annoyance in LibreOffice is that as far as I know (correct me if
I'm wrong) you can only select automatic spell checking to be switched
or or off across both Writer and Calc (and I presume other programs in
the suite, although I've not tested). In my case, I want automatic spell
checking to be on in Writer but off in Calc. MS Office can do this.
Again, one might say that lack of this feature in LibreOffice, minor
though it is, is a bit "clumsy".

Sure, one can could argue that these examples are only minor and only
"clumsy" in comparison to MS Office but the fact is that MS Office is
the competitor and key comparison point for office suites.

> Given that LibreOffice is FREE, and coded
> mostly by volunteers with a wide range of programming skills and experience,
> it seems to me that the author's characterization misses the whole value
> proposition of LibreOffice.

These are idealogical points. Whilst they will always matter to some people, 
the majority of users and decision makers won't ever care about them; they just 
want something that works as smoothly as possible. LibreOffice is very good 
but, as I observe above, it does have some features or minor bugs that could 
legitimately be described as "clumsy" in comparison to the major competition.

In summary, I like LibreOffice. I recommend it to my clients. But I think it 
still needs to develop to match the user interface smoothness that MS Office 
has developed over the years.


-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] PC Magazine Comments about LibreOffice

[Tim---Kracked_P_P---webmaster]

To be honest, I have not read the article, but it can be said that a 
cardinal rule is that you do not alienate your advertisers within your 
articles.


Unless a writer is not biased towards one system or another, there will 
always be some issues with their reviews and ideas about their reviewed 
tech, so many people would say.


Yes, MS Office has the market share for providing office software.  Yes, 
they have the money to make sure there are advertisements on how great 
their software is.  If you were a publisher with MS advertising money 
coming into your publication, you may do what you can to make any 
article favor MS and make the competition look unfavorable for your 
needs.  I have seen articles written with a slat towards one side of a 
debated idea and then the editors/publishers edit it towards the other 
side without the authors knowledge.  "Don't bite the hand that feed you" 
is a major idea where the businesses who pay for advertisements get to 
influence what gets "said" in the publications.


We all have opinions about MS vs. open-source or FOSS.  I cannot afford 
to keep paying for my software and its upgrades.  That is why I first 
looked into Linux and its software alternatives.  Yes, I still have some 
Windows systems, but I tend to use the packages I use on my Ubuntu 
systems on my Windows systems, if they have both Linux and Windows 
versions.  LibreOffice, VLC, Firefox, and a bunch of other software, are 
a major part of my computer usage on both Ubuntu and Windows systems.


So, back to the article. . .
Was the author uninformed or was their other reasons that such an 
article content written.
Then there is the question on how much research was done days or week 
before the article was written and who researched it for the author.  I 
know that a professional writer may not have the time to do all of his 
or hers research included within an article.  If you have to write an 
article every few days, or daily for a blog article, how much time does 
that author have for research?


So since this system of providing information and help for a growing 
competitor to MS Office suite, I say most of us tend think differently 
than what the article states about LibreOffice 5.x.x, or at least what 
we hear about what the article stated in these posts.  I dumped MS 
Office due to costs, while others had a variety of other reasons.  I do 
my best to promote locally LibreOffice.  Having major tech articles that 
"bash" the abilities and stability of LibreOffice is not helpful, but 
these publications need the computer industry's money to survive.  If 
the major supplies of this money needs MS products to keep the lights 
on, then it is hard to be objective towards alternatives to MS 
products.  Rarely do the people in charge of a business look towards 
publications based on Linux and FOSS ideas and services for their 
information about products for their businesses.  WE were raised on MS 
based products to be the only source personal and business solution to 
our computer needs.  WE need to have a major push by the Linux and FOSS 
based communities to re-educate people that there is a different way of 
thinking and a different source for our computer needs.  European 
communities are slowly learning this, but the USA communities are not 
hearing the shouting of the voices of change.


Pro MS articles in publications, without articles that show the real 
truth about the alternatives to MS, are what is holding back the USA 
expansion into the alternative products and markets, like LibreOffice 
others that can replace MS products in you personal and business 
computer environment.



On 11/04/2015 05:32 PM, Bastián Díaz wrote:


I think some very whimsical and uninformed comments from the author.
Unfortunately, that information makes users distrust LibreOffice not 
want to test their virtues. I would say that LibreOffice is in its 
best and still much more to do.


Some articles with facts showing quality and low error that has 
LibreOffice:
-http://www.coverity.com/press-releases/libreoffice-makes-strides-in-software-quality-with-coverity-scan/ 

-http://www.infoworld.com/article/2687117/open-source-software/libreoffice-code-ten-times-better-than-proprietary.html 

-https://colonelqubit.wordpress.com/2015/10/15/libreoffice-qa-over-1000-bibisects-served/ 

-https://mmohrhard.wordpress.com/2015/10/07/short-update-about-the-performance-testing/ 



Cheers

---
BASTIÁN DÍAZ
https://telegram.me/diazbastian

El 04-11-2015 17:58, CVAlkan escribió:


For what it's worth...

In a review of Microsoft Office 2016 in the November 2015 of PC 
Magazine,

long time reviewer Edward Mendelson gives the new version of Microsoft's
suite 4.5 of 5 stars. As is typical of such reviews, the main 
discussion is
followed by a short section - in this case titled "Office 
Alternatives" -

describing other competitive offerings, such as Google Apps, Corel
WordPerfect Office, Apple's iWorks, etc.. He had the following 

Re: [libreoffice-users] lost opportunity

[Tanstaafl]

On 11/5/2015 12:44 PM, Gabriele Ponzo  wrote:
> By the way, just for curiosity, what was the error returned by the
> installer?

This is my main complaint about this entire thread.

Not once did anyone ask for specific details of what was meant by 'none
of these would install, or give any indication of why they wouldn't'...

Marianne,

In the future, details are critical to finding the cause of problems
like these.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] lost opportunity

[libreoffice-ml . mbourne]

marianne-x wrote:

A minor tale of woe:

I have been trying for years to convince a young lady friend to break
away from slavish dependence upon Micro$oft, and at least give LO, et.
al,, a try.

Her Curtains machine, running on Vista, finally got so clogged with
untraceable trash that a complete system reload seemed the only remedy.

That meant re-authorizing the bundled M$ office suite and Bill,
apparently continuing his unholy lust for revenue, refused to accept her
utterly legitimate "product key".

What a chance to gain a convert but, alas, LO queered the deal once again.

I downloaded the software at least 6 times, mostly from the Clarkson U.
mirror where TDF sends one by default, but from at least one other
mirror as well.

4.4.6 three times, 218,736 KB each; 4.4.5 at 219,300 KB; 5.0.3 twice at
215,632 KB each. None of these would install, or give any indication of
why they wouldn't.

Readers may assume that my procedure is at fault, and it may well be,
but after these failures I had no trouble fetching and successfully
installing AOO, Abiword, Jarte, HexEdit, Foxit, Firefox, Thunderbird,
Audacity, 

I have a number of LO .msi files, going back to 3.5.4, on my own
machines (all Curtains 7), and can try transporting them to the target
via an external drive, in case there is actually something squirrelly
about today's downloads.

But, after this experience, the would-be client - fearful of change in
any case - can be excused for looking askance at LO, and may be a lost
cause.

For my own edification, even if there's no salvaging today's fiasco,
does anybody have any suggestions as to how such a supposedly foolproof
process can go so far awry?

trj


I have some recollection of having had problems installing software 
which required Microsoft .NET Framework on a clean system. It was 
several years ago, so not certain of the details, but it may have been 
OpenOffice. Basically, with no version of .NET installed, the installer 
would fail with a rather unhelpful error message (it would be useful to 
know what errors you got, if any). With a version of .NET installed 
(even if not the right version), the installer then gave a message 
saying which version is needed. Bit of a catch-22 I think - the 
installer couldn't run at all without .NET Framework, but having any 
version it could get far enough to work out that it's the wrong version 
and say what it needs.


It may not be the problem, as I thought Windows Vista came with a 
version of .NET preinstalled, but I may be wrong. I'm also not sure 
whether "Curtains" is another name for "Windows" or something else 
entirely? Anyway, it might be worth trying to install the latest .NET 
from  and see if the installer will then 
run (or at least which version of .NET is needed).


Mark.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] LEBRE VERSION STILL

[Philip Jackson]

Thank you to all who replied.  The problem was solved by a kind reply
offline by Cley.  I had not known about the Browse mode in Okular, my
pdf reader.

Not a LO problem at all but down to incomplete familiarity with my pdf
reader.

Philip

On 05/11/15 18:29, Gabriele Ponzo wrote:
> This is really strange… Please try using "evince" as reader and let us know.
> 
> ---
> Gabriele Ponzo
> 
> 2015-11-05 18:03 GMT+01:00 Philip Jackson  >:
> 
> Sure, the whole of my LO document is style based and the TOC links work
> great inside the LO document. But not in the exported pdf document. So I
> probably didn't understand something.
> 
> Philip
> 
> On 05/11/15 14:52, Gabriele Ponzo wrote:
> > Maybe, but make sure using styles to have a result ;)
> >
> > ---
> > Gabriele Ponzo
> >
> > 2015-11-05 14:17 GMT+01:00 Philip Jackson
> >:
> >
> >> On 05/11/15 04:21, Steve Edmonds wrote:
> >>> I use an external PDF writer for some documents where LO fails to
> >>> convert vector formats correctly.
> >>> That said, if I use the external converter I loose all my cross
> >>> referencing and TOC links that LO does very well in my opinion.
> >>> Steve
> >>
> >> I have used export to pdf in LO Writer and always had a good pdf copy
> >> but the TOC links never work in the pdf version.  I've tried the
> >> different options under the links tab in the export to pdf
> dialogue but
> >> can't find any difference whatever the options selected.
> >>
> >> I'm using LO 4.2.8.2 as supplied by UbuntuStudio 1404.  For
> reading the
> >> pdf's, I use Okular.
> >>
> >> Does the use/performance of TOC links in the pdf depend on the
> reader ?
> >>
> >> Philip



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[libreoffice-users] Re: PC Magazine Comments about LibreOffice

[CVAlkan]

One more quick note:

Edward Mendelson has written another somewhat different commentary on
LibreOffice 5 that can be found at:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2418419,00.asp




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[libreoffice-users] Re: PC Magazine Comments about LibreOffice

[CVAlkan]

Ha, Ha ...  At my age, every day is good if you just wake up! But I do try to
keep my curmudgeonly reputation intact when I can.

But seriously, good coders, in spite of what you may read, are not
necessarily good designers; this is and has always been true of virtually
any profession. A good carpenter, for instance, may do a fantastic job of
constructing someone else's designs, but produce second-rate stuff strictly
on his own. A great cabinet designer might not even know how to create a
dovetail. Or not ... It varies widely and I can't see how anyone can show a
valid correlation. And "stable" is, after all, merely one aspect on which
most companies and users evaluate software: it's necessary, but insufficient
as they say.

Coding is a profession requiring study and experience; a programmer might
also be a decent accountant, or writer, or cook, or whatever, but is usually
at the mercy of those doing the specifications and explanations when
attempting to automate something he's only been recently exposed to - what's
even more difficult to do in an unfamiliar coding exercise is knowing when
it is appropriate for "software" to tackle a task in an entirely different
manner than a human would (compare, for instance, the most efficient ways
for a human to sort a pile of records to the most efficient way for a
machine to sort electronic versions of those same records). Not all good
coders have enough experience to do this successfully.

If you take a look at the documents I referred to, you'll see what I mean:
almost everything can be made to work in the multi-lingual examples I give,
and I would guess that the actual code has probably been cleaned up in all
the recent reviews, but it's still a royal pain to use for multi-lingual
documents. In short, it's a bad, user-hostile design that was coded well.
How many great coders are familiar with more than one or two languages?
(Quite a few actually, but I'm guessing you get my point anyway).

And, as I said, I agree with you that Mendelson's comments seemed very odd
given the circumstances. Perhaps I should contact him and see if he wants to
join us in this discussion.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] LEBRE VERSION STILL

[libreoffice-ml . mbourne]

Philip Jackson wrote:

On 05/11/15 04:21, Steve Edmonds wrote:

I use an external PDF writer for some documents where LO fails to
convert vector formats correctly.
That said, if I use the external converter I loose all my cross
referencing and TOC links that LO does very well in my opinion.
Steve


I have used export to pdf in LO Writer and always had a good pdf copy
but the TOC links never work in the pdf version.  I've tried the
different options under the links tab in the export to pdf dialogue but
can't find any difference whatever the options selected.

I'm using LO 4.2.8.2 as supplied by UbuntuStudio 1404.  For reading the
pdf's, I use Okular.

Does the use/performance of TOC links in the pdf depend on the reader ?


Quite possibly, since the reader has to interpret the links, and perform 
the action of moving to the appropriate page when you click on them.


Having said that, I just looked at a PDF I exported from LibreOffice 4.4 
(rather an old version) a couple of weeks ago, and the TOC links do not 
work in Adobe Reader X. Exporting the file to PDF again, the links DO 
work. It seems that if I open the file in read-only mode (I'd set the 
read-only file property on the file) and export as PDF, the links DO 
work, but if I click the banner to "Edit Document" and export to PDF 
from edit mode, the links DON'T work. Possibly related to:

  https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49568

All the PDF export settings were the same in both cases:
- General
  - Range: All
  - Images: JPEG, 90%
  - Archive PDF/A-1a
  - Export bookmarks
- Initial View
  - Panes: Page only
  - Magnification: Default
  - Page Layout: Default
- User Interface
  - Display document title
  - Bookmarks: All bookmark levels
- Links
  - (Nothing selected; ticking all options made no difference)
Other options I haven't mentioned were not ticked

Mark.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] calc: highlight cells referenced by formula

[Sandro Santilli]

On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 07:22:56AM +, Brian Barker wrote:

> Do you need just Tools | Detective > | Trace Precedents (or
> Shift+F7)? This will display the links through which a formula
> harvests its parameters. There is also Tools | Detective > | Trace
> Dependents (or Shift+F5) to do the same thing in reverse.

That looks promising, thanks !

But when the "Precedents" are in a different sheet (which is my case)
the arrows point to nowhere (are a short 45 degrees arrow starting with
a square and cannot be selected with the mouse).

--strk;

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Re: [libreoffice-users] calc: highlight cells referenced by formula

[Sandro Santilli]

On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 09:01:16AM +0100, Sandro Santilli wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 08:47:37AM +0100, Sandro Santilli wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 07:22:56AM +, Brian Barker wrote:
> > 
> > > Do you need just Tools | Detective > | Trace Precedents (or
> > > Shift+F7)? This will display the links through which a formula
> > > harvests its parameters. There is also Tools | Detective > | Trace
> > > Dependents (or Shift+F5) to do the same thing in reverse.
> > 
> > That looks promising, thanks !
> > 
> > But when the "Precedents" are in a different sheet (which is my case)
> > the arrows point to nowhere (are a short 45 degrees arrow starting with
> > a square and cannot be selected with the mouse).
> 
> Digging some on the web I found cross-sheet tracing to be still missing:
> https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=44828

And the libreoffice equivalent is here:
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63087
which confirms latest version still has the bug.

--strk;

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Re: [libreoffice-users] calc: highlight cells referenced by formula

[Sandro Santilli]

On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 08:47:37AM +0100, Sandro Santilli wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 07:22:56AM +, Brian Barker wrote:
> 
> > Do you need just Tools | Detective > | Trace Precedents (or
> > Shift+F7)? This will display the links through which a formula
> > harvests its parameters. There is also Tools | Detective > | Trace
> > Dependents (or Shift+F5) to do the same thing in reverse.
> 
> That looks promising, thanks !
> 
> But when the "Precedents" are in a different sheet (which is my case)
> the arrows point to nowhere (are a short 45 degrees arrow starting with
> a square and cannot be selected with the mouse).

Digging some on the web I found cross-sheet tracing to be still missing:
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=44828

BTW, I've also found CTRL-[ doing an interesting thing, except it gets
lost after the first jump (jumps to first precedent).

So it still takes a macro to implement ?

--strk;

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LEBRE VERSION STILL

[jorge]

Hi all:

As I understand LO has an area of support buying it,... I'm not sure.
Or someone here can give him support trying agree price in a private
way ... try to help him if someone has time and knowledge; is my
suggestion.

LO has Merchandise, hansn't it ? What is their funtion if not sell
something ?

Regards,

Jorge Rodríguez

 


El jue, 05-11-2015 a las 11:49 +0100, Charles-H. Schulz escribió:
> Hello Ken,
> 
> Le 05.11.2015 11:24, Ken Springer a écrit :
> > On 11/5/15 12:12 AM, toki wrote:
> >> On 05/11/2015 04:24, Ken Springer wrote:
> >> 
> >>> While some bug may be deemed trivial by the devs or some system, that 
> >>> bug may not be trivial to the user.
> >> 
> >> That is why individuals and organization purchase Tier 3 support
> >> contracts. It does matter if the software is FLOSS, or non-FLOSS, the
> >> only way to ensure that issues that the user considers to be serious
> >> flaws/bugs, is by either fixing the issue themselves, or paying 
> >> somebody
> >> to fix the issue.
> > 
> > Or by going elsewhere, using someone else's product.  :-)
> > 
> 
> Of course, especially given that LibreOffice is not a product but a 
> community. A product comes with warranties and things such as support 
> contract. It also comes with a price tag. That being said, nobody's 
> working for free; do you? Using someone else's products will require 
> them at some point to purchase something (a license, a support contract, 
> etc.)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Charles.
> 

-- 
Atentamente,

Jorge Rodríguez


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[libreoffice-users] lost opportunity

[marianne-x]

List Ahoy:

Charles Schulz wrote: "Also, I'm curious to know what operating system 
you replaced her existing system with."
The original was Vista, and the replacement was Vista. The easiest path, 
since everything was right there in a recovery partition on the hard drive.


"It looks like you didn't want to migrate the person on Linux."
I don't think you appreciate the depth of resistance to change on the 
part of the technologically timid. Besides, if I failed to pull off a 
simple install of LO on a virgin-system machine, what chance would I 
have with Linux? It was also necessary to re-load the original bundled 
M$ software, even if only to allow exporting the data trapped in 
Outlook's .pst file to Thunderbird.


" perhaps you could reinstall LibreOffice for her if there's a 
working mirror "

" what went wrong with this particular server."
As I said, I fetched LO from at least 2 different mirrors, and I would 
now expand that to "at least 3", since 5.0.3 apparently defaulted to the 
University of Texas. Are you suggesting an epidemic amongst them? And, 
for what it's worth, I found it hard to locate and connect with the 
download sites on non-default mirrors. None of the home pages of any of 
the institutions that TDF lists as mirrors showed any obvious path to 
their download departments, and by just using the links listed no 
control was afforded.


As said, if the fault is truly in all the many downloads of yesterday, 
then transporting by external drive one or more of the 21 
earlier-edition installers still available on this Curtains 7 machine 
should work. However, I suspect that some negative synergy twixt LO and 
Vista has reared its ugly head here.



trj

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LEBRE VERSION STILL

[toki]

On 05/11/2015 10:24, Ken Springer wrote:
> Or by going elsewhere, using someone else's product.  :-)


All software has bugs.
The issue is whether one wants to use the software whose bugs one knows,
(which is why I use something that the developers specifically proclaim
is not suitable for use as an email client, despite being marketed as
such, to read my email(^1))  or software whose bugs one does not know.

^1: Two different software developers for this not-an-email-client have
assured me that even if the patch to convert it to an email client were
submitted, it would be rejected on principle,because the software is
emphatically not an email client.)

jonathon


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