Re: [libreoffice-users] Struggling with Hebrew in LO

[Dotan Cohen]

I apologize for not having seen this thread sooner. Here is a document
which explains why you see what you do, and how to work with it rather
than against it. The concepts are really quite simple, but not
intuitive:
http://dotancohen.com/howto/rtl_right_to_left.html

You are invited to contact me at any time with questions.

Some examples of proper mixed Hebrew and English:

Hello, יהונתן, how are you?‎
‫שלום, Jonathan, מה שלומך?

English at the beginning, עברית בסוף.‎
‫עברית בהתחלה, English at the end.

Because plain-text email does not even have a concept of alignment,
the alignment of the Hebrew sentences depends on your renderer (email
client or web browser). Most likely, they will all be left-aligned.
Note however that alignment and directionality are different concepts.
In all cases, the punctuation should be at the proper end of the
sentence. In order to have Hebrew texts right-aligned in email, I
would have to have sent an HTML email. In LibreOffice you shouldn't
have such an issue. LibreOffice, unlike email, has a concept of
alignment.




On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Jonathan Allen
 wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I'm struggling with using mixed English and Hebrew text in LO.  This is
> a fully up-to-date LO 5.1.4.2 in a new installation of Linux Mint.
>
> When I type English text, the letters come out in the right order, but the
> punctuation goes at the beginning of the line, until the next letter is typed
> which is strange but sort-of-OK in mid-sentence but no good at end of the
> paragraph.
>
> Attempting to combine Hebrew and English text in the same sentence, as it
> were to say 'shalom' in flight, assembles the language blocks the wrong
> way round.  Using Alt-Ctrl-8 and Alt-Ctrl-9 doesn't seem to fix this and
> the Shift-Ctrl-D and Alt-Shift combinations are also dysfunctional.  The
> font-name (selected as SBL Hebrew) switches once characters are typed to
> DejaVu Sans.
>
> This is probably all very familiar to someone (if not all), so anyone
> help me to get this working correctly, please?
>
> Jonathan
>
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-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Struggling with Hebrew in LO

[jonathon]

On 25/10/2016 14:43, Jonathan Allen wrote:

> Attempting to combine Hebrew and English text in the same sentence, as it
> were to say 'shalom' in flight, assembles the language blocks the wrong way 
> round. 

Use language specific character styles, and language specific paragraph
styles. Hebrew only, English only. You can't mix English and Hebrew in
the same style. Things will get messed up.

I usually use a different colour, for each paragraph style, and each
character style,. Then, when the document is completed, proof-read,
copy-edited, grammar checked, etc., change the style colours to black.

To avoid the misplaced punctuation issue, don't use the non-dominant
language at either the beginning, or end of the sentence. Ideally, it
won't be the first, or last word, in the correctly punctuated phrase.

jonathon


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Struggling with Hebrew in LO

[Trever L. Adams]

On 10/25/2016 05:17 PM, Trever L. Adams wrote:
> On 10/25/2016 08:43 AM, Jonathan Allen wrote:
>> Dear List,
>>
>> I'm struggling with using mixed English and Hebrew text in LO.  This is
>> a fully up-to-date LO 5.1.4.2 in a new installation of Linux Mint.
>>
>> When I type English text, the letters come out in the right order, but the
>> punctuation goes at the beginning of the line, until the next letter is typed
>> which is strange but sort-of-OK in mid-sentence but no good at end of the
>> paragraph.
>>
>> Attempting to combine Hebrew and English text in the same sentence, as it
>> were to say 'shalom' in flight, assembles the language blocks the wrong
>> way round.  Using Alt-Ctrl-8 and Alt-Ctrl-9 doesn't seem to fix this and
>> the Shift-Ctrl-D and Alt-Shift combinations are also dysfunctional.  The
>> font-name (selected as SBL Hebrew) switches once characters are typed to
>> DejaVu Sans.
>>
>> This is probably all very familiar to someone (if not all), so anyone
>> help me to get this working correctly, please?
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
> I have never been able to get RTL and LTR languages to mix in the same
> sentence properly with any application in Windows or Linux when you
> start adding punctuation. In LO you can set the language for a
> paragraph and, if I remember correctly, that fixes the punctuation
> placement problem. I am sorry for not being certain as it has been a
> few years since I wrote any significant quantity of Hebrew.
>
Sorry, the option is Format/Character/Font/Language or right click and
character/font/language. It isn't paragraph. As I said, it has been a
few years.

Trever


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Struggling with Hebrew in LO

[Trever L. Adams]

On 10/25/2016 08:43 AM, Jonathan Allen wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> I'm struggling with using mixed English and Hebrew text in LO.  This is
> a fully up-to-date LO 5.1.4.2 in a new installation of Linux Mint.
>
> When I type English text, the letters come out in the right order, but the
> punctuation goes at the beginning of the line, until the next letter is typed
> which is strange but sort-of-OK in mid-sentence but no good at end of the
> paragraph.
>
> Attempting to combine Hebrew and English text in the same sentence, as it
> were to say 'shalom' in flight, assembles the language blocks the wrong
> way round.  Using Alt-Ctrl-8 and Alt-Ctrl-9 doesn't seem to fix this and
> the Shift-Ctrl-D and Alt-Shift combinations are also dysfunctional.  The
> font-name (selected as SBL Hebrew) switches once characters are typed to
> DejaVu Sans.
>
> This is probably all very familiar to someone (if not all), so anyone
> help me to get this working correctly, please?
>
> Jonathan
>
I have never been able to get RTL and LTR languages to mix in the same
sentence properly with any application in Windows or Linux when you
start adding punctuation. In LO you can set the language for a paragraph
and, if I remember correctly, that fixes the punctuation placement
problem. I am sorry for not being certain as it has been a few years
since I wrote any significant quantity of Hebrew.

I have never had any problems with the order of actual words between the
two languages.

In English, I say hello, in Hebrew I say שלום.

שלום, Jonathan.

I am not sure what mailer you are using or how it will render, but LO
and Thunderbird in Linux render the above the same. Period may be
considered out of order in the first. The comma in the second definitely
is. This is with leaving the language at default (en_US-UTF-8 for
myself). Try selecting your paragraphs and changing the language to
Hebrew and see if that helps any.

I cannot comment on the keyboard shortcuts you mentioned as I don't know
what they are supposed to do or where they do work.

Trever


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[libreoffice-users] Struggling with Hebrew in LO

[Jonathan Allen]

Dear List,

I'm struggling with using mixed English and Hebrew text in LO.  This is
a fully up-to-date LO 5.1.4.2 in a new installation of Linux Mint.

When I type English text, the letters come out in the right order, but the
punctuation goes at the beginning of the line, until the next letter is typed
which is strange but sort-of-OK in mid-sentence but no good at end of the
paragraph.

Attempting to combine Hebrew and English text in the same sentence, as it
were to say 'shalom' in flight, assembles the language blocks the wrong
way round.  Using Alt-Ctrl-8 and Alt-Ctrl-9 doesn't seem to fix this and
the Shift-Ctrl-D and Alt-Shift combinations are also dysfunctional.  The
font-name (selected as SBL Hebrew) switches once characters are typed to
DejaVu Sans.

This is probably all very familiar to someone (if not all), so anyone
help me to get this working correctly, please?

Jonathan

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