Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
Hi :) I think it depends on how you educate new users. If we continue to be rude demand that new new users obey 1 certain way of doing things before we even consider helping them then i think that is unlikely to enamour people. Perhaps when people ask questions we could just start with the RTFM answer that got linux such a wonderful reputation. At least then they would have something to work with. Regards from Tom :) From: Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net To: users@libreoffice.org Sent: Wed, 16 February, 2011 7:37:18 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 04:36:49PM -0800, MR ZenWiz wrote: On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: : Is there something wrong with educating new users? Only that it takes some effort, like bottom posting, being courteous, keeping logical threads, posting only what needs to be posted and so on. IOW, too much work for the lazy. So now we're bending over backwards to cater to the lazy? You maybe, not me. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On 16-02-11 09:38, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) I think it depends on how you educate new users. If we continue to be rude demand that new new users obey 1 certain way of doing things before we even consider helping them then i think that is unlikely to enamour people. Perhaps when people ask questions we could just start with the RTFM answer that got linux such a wonderful reputation. At least then they would have something to work with. Regards from Tom :) We dont need to be rude demanding to new users, But some existing users should actually start reading what other post here, and THINK about what they are saying. Some people may think I dont care what others say But that wil not improve general quality, and readability here. For most people it should not be a problem to obey certain simple 'rules' (guidelines) here. And i know i am not making these guidelines, but i'm only asking some attention for it in this thread. -- Luuk -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
Tom Davies wrote (16-02-11 09:38) I think it depends on how you educate new users. Indeed. Showing them how handy correct quoting and replying is. Nearly all people can understand that. Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
Hi :) Sadly we have to deal with the world as it is rather than the way we would like it to be. Far more people use the wonderful MicroSoft products such as Outlook than use all the alternatives added together. Please can we try to be less unfriendly to people that are new in here? Top posters (first timers asking questions) need to be responded to at the top of the thread. Otherwise they might assume there was no answer in the reply. Part of that response can be to ask them to bottom-post and check the ends of posts but there needs to be something that is directly useful to them in that response. At the moment we often have responses that only appears to criticise the person and leaves nothing to help them. That is a waste of their time which is not ideal if we are trying to attract people. Most people will only have time to have a quick glance at an email, to triage, before deciding whether to deal with it now or leave it to later (often = delete). The first thing that most people see is the top of the email and almost all our responses fall into the leave to later or delete straight-away category. If we want people to see us as unhelpful and unfriendly then bottom-posting is fine. We have to be able to deal with people in the manner they are accustomed to. At the moment we behave like stereotypical English tourists shouting loudly at people in MicroSoft-land and then shouting louder if they don't understand. Yes, they don't do thing 'our way'. Obviously 'our way' is the only 'right way' but that doesn't necessarily mean we don't want to help them. Or does it? Regards from Tom :) From: Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net To: users@libreoffice.org Sent: Tue, 15 February, 2011 23:47:06 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting Le 15/02/2011 18:38, Tom Davies a écrit : Hi :) Bottom, Almost every office user i know (at least the few that use email) posts at the top of mails and leaves the previous posts dangling downwards along with any signatures. Some corporate users get all the previous thread deleted off the bottom and a disclaimer added to the bottom. So, at best they stick with the defaults, the easiest thing. I do know how badly office workers use mail, just because of some $µ%@ OutlookExpress misbehaviour. The question is how much we want to alienate first-time users and office users? Who is more important to please, 'geeks' or potential new users? Bottom quoting (hey, we've got a big furry troll) is the natural way of reading texts and answering questions: Question 1 Answer 1 Question 2 Answer 2 and so on. So no question (pun intended): bottom is the way to go :) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On 16-02-11 14:51, TVCSF Chair wrote: I could not agree more. I have been using OOo and Thunderbird for several years now and try to get the people I work around to use free rather than MS software. It is a really hard uphill struggle. But I would say that I always have my comments at the top of e-mails as that is the way I prefer to set up Thunderbird. Some people obviously prefer to have comments at the bottom, good on them, it would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things. This text is off-topic :'( Steve This e-mail together with any attachments, is confidential. It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail or telephone. Please then delete it from your computer without making any copies or disclosing it to any other person. Any unauthorized copying, disclosure or distribution of the material in this e-mail is strictly forbidden. The text of this mail is also archived 'for ever', therefore it is of no use to put a disclaimer like this under this message. Quoot from: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ Please remember: everything you post to our public mailing lists, including your e-mail address and any other personal information contained in your message, will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted. So, please do post wisely -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
W dniu 11-02-16 14:51, TVCSF Chair pisze: Some people obviously prefer to have comments at the bottom, good on them, it would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things. But everyone read texts from top to bottom. From primary school to last days. Specjally with latin letters, but I am sure with oriental letters too. Get any book, paper, banner, message, etc, whatever-you-want - always from top to bottom. Even comix. Very borring? Give me the only one sample, where read is jumping down-up-down-up-down-... from one part of text to other! -- Mieszko Kaczmarczyk Administrator IT Wetzel Sp. z o.o. Duchnów, ul. Kresowa 8 05-462 Wiązowna Phone: +48 (0) 22 780-20-00 ext.219 Direct: +48 (0) 22 780-20-19 Mobile: +48 (0) 795 061 783 Fax:+48 (0) 22 780-20-03 Kapitał zakładowy: 600.000,00 zł. Sąd Rejonowy dla M.ST. Warszawy w Warszawie, XXI Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego NIP: 951-00-43-131 Regon: 010799082 KRS: 058229 Zarząd Spółki: Ewa Dzwonkowska- Prezes Zarządu, Detlev Liebschwager- Członek Zarządu, Martin Siebold- Członek Zarządu /Save a tree - only print this message if it's absolutely necessary! / -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
Hello Dave, Le 16/02/2011 12:44, Tom Davies a écrit : Sadly we have to deal with the world as it is rather than the way we would like it to be. Sure. Does this mean we won't try to educate them? Far more people use the wonderful MicroSoft products such as Outlook than use all the alternatives added together. Indeed. Please can we try to be less unfriendly to people that are new in here? Am I? Sorry if my message seemed like that, because it was not the intend. Top posters (first timers asking questions) need to be responded to at the top of the thread. Otherwise they might assume there was no answer in the reply. If you read this very message, you can see that I've edited it in many pieces that are very likely to be noticed. I guess ;) So, top- or bottom-posting is just a part of the mail-user-education: editing the original message to get to the point is also very important. The sender must think he has to be read, and understood (otherwise what's the point at posting at all?). So eliminating the useless parts -- which are available upper in the thread anyway -- is a requirement. The first thing that most people see is the top of the email and almost all our responses fall into the leave to later or delete straight-away category. This is what message editing is all about. Yes, they don't do thing 'our way'. Obviously 'our way' is the only 'right way' but that doesn't necessarily mean we don't want to help them. Or does it? No, of course. This is my point: bottom-posting + editing and, from time to time explaining. I don't think I ever ignored any message just because it was top-answered. Cheers, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On 2011-02-15 12:38 PM, Tom Davies wrote: The question is how much we want to alienate first-time users and office users? Who is more important to please, 'geeks' or potential new users? You don't have to alienate them... just some gentle prodding in the beginning is enough for most people, explaining that it is the style of the LibO lists to bottom/in-line post, with a link to the 'Learn2Quote' page posted earlier... What really irks me are the jerks who simply refuse to abide by a lists general guidelines... and they can get away with it here because no one will ban them for refusing to comply. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On 2011-02-16 8:51 AM, TVCSF Chair wrote: I could not agree more. I have been using OOo and Thunderbird for several years now and try to get the people I work around to use free rather than MS software. It is a really hard uphill struggle. But I would say that I always have my comments at the top of e-mails as that is the way I prefer to set up Thunderbird. Some people obviously prefer to have comments at the bottom, good on them, it would be a very boring world if we all liked the same things. But what you seem to be missing is that different email LISTS have different GUIDELINES... the guidelines for these lists is to bottom-post... So, when you and others refuse to abide by the guidelines, you are essentially telling everyone that you are better than them, and/or are just too damn lazy to adjust your behavior - ie, 'When in Rome...' Oh, and as to your 'disclaimer' - be advised that I have forwarded your email on to a few of the gossips I know who are now forwarding on to many others and posting it on porn websites... feel free to sue me... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 07:29:17PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) No, i wasn't saying that anyone was deliberately unfriendly but i think we need to have better ways of dealing with top-posters because we often give an appearance of rudeness. Check this site: http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/faqs/smart-questions.html especially the part about curt answers. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Robert Holtzman hol...@cox.net wrote: Check this site: http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/faqs/smart-questions.html especially the part about curt answers. I have often practiced exactly that sort of discussion - but usually on the technical users' lists. If we want people to use LibreOffice, it might be a good idea not to push them away just because they're idiots - er, no, I mean new to this kind of discussion format. Yeah, that's the ticket - this isn't Usenet, after all -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
Hi, When replying to a message on this list, What is the best method when talking abot quoting? Bottom quoting is what i like because it preserves the reading order of the story. Luuk -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
Hi Luuk, Am 15.02.2011 16:13, schrieb Luuk: When replying to a message on this list, What is the best method when talking abot quoting? Bottom quoting is what i like because it preserves the reading order of the story. Please refer to this: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Thank you! :-) Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On 15/02/11 15:15, Matthew Young wrote: Hi, I prefer top quoting since email clients such as Thunderbird shows the text right on top. No it doesn't - I'm using TBird and it's set to bottom post. Do you read a book from the bottom up? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On 15-Feb-11 10:13 AM, Luuk wrote: Hi, When replying to a message on this list, What is the best method when talking abot quoting? Bottom quoting is what i like because it preserves the reading order of the story. Luuk +1 It would be better if this were set up as a USENET Group. Colin W. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
top-quoting fixed On 15-02-11 16:15, Matthew Young wrote: On 02/15/2011 09:13 AM, Luuk wrote: Hi, When replying to a message on this list, What is the best method when talking abot quoting? Bottom quoting is what i like because it preserves the reading order of the story. Luuk Hi, I prefer top quoting since email clients such as Thunderbird shows the text right on top. Matthew No, they dont, you can configure that ... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On 15-02-11 17:00, Cor Nouws wrote: Hi, Matthew Young wrote (15-02-11 16:15) I prefer top quoting since email clients such as Thunderbird shows the text right on top. When you hit the space bar, Thunderbird scrolls down in the text of the message.. no, i get a message Advance to next unread message in? Shift-Tab the opposite direction - of course. You mean 'Shift-space'... Cor -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
Hi Luuk, Luuk wrote (15-02-11 17:06) On 15-02-11 17:00, Cor Nouws wrote: Matthew Young wrote (15-02-11 16:15) I prefer top quoting since email clients such as Thunderbird shows the text right on top. When you hit the space bar, Thunderbird scrolls down in the text of the message.. no, i get a message Advance to next unread message in? Yes, that is correct for a short text message. But try this one :-) Shift-Tab the opposite direction - of course. You mean 'Shift-space'... Oops, of course. Apologies :-) more ... more more ... more does space work up to here? If not, there must be some hidden config ;-) Ciao - Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On 15 February 2011 09:15, Matthew Young rs.matthewcom.i...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I prefer top quoting since email clients such as Thunderbird shows the text right on top. Clients which top-quote (thanks to M$'s Outlook which started the trend) are fundamentally broken. -- T. R. Valentine Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care. 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes.' -- Erasmus -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-users] top- or bottom- quoting
On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 05:38:16PM +, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Almost every office user i know (at least the few that use email) posts at the top of mails and leaves the previous posts dangling downwards along with any signatures. Some corporate users get all the previous thread deleted off the bottom and a disclaimer added to the bottom. So, at best they stick with the defaults, the easiest thing. The question is how much we want to alienate first-time users and office users? Who is more important to please, 'geeks' or potential new users? Is there something wrong with educating new users? -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
