Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
An incredible topic of discussion... Presumably because Americans do not use A4, everyone else must stop also. Similarly, majority of people on this planet understand implicitly yy/mm/dd or dd/mm/yy, but because Americans do not by default, everyone else must adhere to what the Americans are doing. Whatever is the policy, strategy of a fortune 500 company (whatever that means), you will do as they do, or expect the American army to arrive and enforce their rules. Resistance is futile... The fact is, organisers have made certain decisions (preferential use of mailing lists, disdain for web forums, advice to post comments for advice, etc.) and people have chosen to complain that they don't like these decisions. In the world of free software, there is nothing to stop such people from creating their own new fork; with that some suggestions: Create a new office software suite, call it something like peopleoffice. Specify top posting as the rule by which help/advice will only be offered. Better still, avoid mailing list altogether and use a bulletin board software platform. Go away from LO. Good luck. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 08:36:03 +0100, e-letter inp...@gmail.com wrote Re Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken: An incredible topic of discussion... Indeed it has been. It enabled me to easily identify and add several top-posting morons to my plonk list. Now I can avoid all of their posts. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
Hi :) I don't think there are people arguing that top-posting MUST be the ONLY way. On the contrary, we are pointing out that if the product is to be used by more people than are currently using it, especially if we want office workers to use it, then we have to be prepared for many of those to be unused to bottom posting. I am sick of this argument. I have never been so brow-beaten or bullied in the supposedly Open world that supposedly encourages free-thinking and diversity. Instead it seems that LibreOffice is very restrictive, at least on the users list if nowhere else. Is Libre about freedom or about restrictions? Regards from Tom :) From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com To: users@libreoffice.org Sent: Wed, 1 June, 2011 8:36:03 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken An incredible topic of discussion... Presumably because Americans do not use A4, everyone else must stop also. Similarly, majority of people on this planet understand implicitly yy/mm/dd or dd/mm/yy, but because Americans do not by default, everyone else must adhere to what the Americans are doing. Whatever is the policy, strategy of a fortune 500 company (whatever that means), you will do as they do, or expect the American army to arrive and enforce their rules. Resistance is futile... The fact is, organisers have made certain decisions (preferential use of mailing lists, disdain for web forums, advice to post comments for advice, etc.) and people have chosen to complain that they don't like these decisions. In the world of free software, there is nothing to stop such people from creating their own new fork; with that some suggestions: Create a new office software suite, call it something like peopleoffice. Specify top posting as the rule by which help/advice will only be offered. Better still, avoid mailing list altogether and use a bulletin board software platform. Go away from LO. Good luck. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
Tom Davies Wed, 01 Jun 2011 02:53:39 -0700 Hi :) I don't think there are people arguing that top-posting MUST be the ONLY way. On the contrary, we are pointing out that if the product is to be used by more people than are currently using it, especially if we want office workers to use it, then we have to be prepared for many of those to be unused to bottom posting. With respect, this is weak. A native English speaker seeking to learn Mandarin cannot be expected to be tolerated for refusing to adjust to learning new rules of grammar/syntax and instead continuing to apply English grammatical rules during Mandarin conversation. An office worker who cannot understand simple posting rules is probably going to waste programmers' time by asking: where's the ribbon? or what is a regular expression? and would be better staying within the m$ world. I am sick of this argument. I have never been so brow-beaten or bullied in the supposedly Open world that supposedly encourages free-thinking and diversity. Instead it seems that LibreOffice is very restrictive, at least on the users list if nowhere else. Is Libre about freedom or about restrictions? Freedom to accept new rules and methods or go and create your own...Never forget, it is the user who chooses _of their own volition_ to use gnu/linux or apple macinto$h or window$. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org In case of problems unsubscribing, write to postmas...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:52:42 +0100 (BST) Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) I don't think there are people arguing that top-posting MUST be the ONLY way. On the contrary, we are pointing out that if the product is to be used by more people than are currently using it, especially if we want office workers to use it, then we have to be prepared for many of those to be unused to bottom posting. Um, the developer community runs the list. They don't have to, but they do. They provide a product for free. They provide a forum for help, for free. I would risk the statement that it is their privilege to lay down the general rules and ask people to adhere to them. After all, it's their list. I am sick of this argument. I have never been so brow-beaten or bullied in the supposedly Open world that supposedly encourages free-thinking and diversity. Instead it seems that LibreOffice is very restrictive, at least on the users list if nowhere else. Is Libre about freedom or about restrictions? Regards from Tom :) OK, a low-brow explanation; idea stolen from Dave Barry. You don't go to a smooth jazz fancy fingerfood party and start farting. Not because it is explicitely forbidden by some law, but because most people at such a party are not particularly keen on hearing and smelling fart. What's more, if you do go and start farting, they might ask you not to do it. Now, one possibility is to argue with them that it is your unalienable human right to fart wherever and whenever it pleases you and if they don't like it then they are oppressive fascists tyrants, enemies of freedom and so on. The alternative possibility is to realise that it is not your party and simply stop farting. Naturally, you can organise an alternative, the skunks will beg for the recipe farting party and frown upon any guest who as much as twicthes the nose, let alone starting to spray industrial strength air freshener around. Indeed, you'd have every right to feel offended is that guest with the freshener also lectured you that your not liking the spraying on your party is restrictive beghaviour, against diversity and free-thinking and it is positively bullying. By the way, some 20 years ago I thought that this whole top-posting nonsense was sorted out once and for all after a handful of really massive flame wars on USENET, crossposted all over the place and people getting so sick and tired of the whole thing that they plonked anyone even raising the issue again. Gee, was I wrong or what. It's like a phoenix, gets up again and again. Damned scary, really. Zoltan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org In case of problems unsubscribing, write to postmas...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
On 2011-06-01 10:10 AM, Zoltán Kócsi wrote: By the way, some 20 years ago I thought that this whole top-posting nonsense was sorted out once and for all after a handful of really massive flame wars on USENET, crossposted all over the place and people getting so sick and tired of the whole thing that they plonked anyone even raising the issue again. Gee, was I wrong or what. It's like a phoenix, gets up again and again. Damned scary, really. Actually, I think it's hilarious... I only engage in these kinds of flame wars when I'm bored, because I know I'll rarely every change anyone's mind... although it has happened on occasion (believe it or not)... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org In case of problems unsubscribing, write to postmas...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
Bottom and mid-posting are legacy architectures with a few desperate dinosaurs still clinging to them. The Fortunate 500 is a global thing, not an American thing these days. Many of the corporations in it are not American, and all of them are hoping to one day get in it. On Thu, 2011-06-02 at 00:10 +1000, Zoltán Kócsi wrote: On Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:52:42 +0100 (BST) Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi :) I don't think there are people arguing that top-posting MUST be the ONLY way. On the contrary, we are pointing out that if the product is to be used by more people than are currently using it, especially if we want office workers to use it, then we have to be prepared for many of those to be unused to bottom posting. Um, the developer community runs the list. They don't have to, but they do. They provide a product for free. They provide a forum for help, for free. I would risk the statement that it is their privilege to lay down the general rules and ask people to adhere to them. After all, it's their list. I am sick of this argument. I have never been so brow-beaten or bullied in the supposedly Open world that supposedly encourages free-thinking and diversity. Instead it seems that LibreOffice is very restrictive, at least on the users list if nowhere else. Is Libre about freedom or about restrictions? Regards from Tom :) OK, a low-brow explanation; idea stolen from Dave Barry. You don't go to a smooth jazz fancy fingerfood party and start farting. Not because it is explicitely forbidden by some law, but because most people at such a party are not particularly keen on hearing and smelling fart. What's more, if you do go and start farting, they might ask you not to do it. Now, one possibility is to argue with them that it is your unalienable human right to fart wherever and whenever it pleases you and if they don't like it then they are oppressive fascists tyrants, enemies of freedom and so on. The alternative possibility is to realise that it is not your party and simply stop farting. Naturally, you can organise an alternative, the skunks will beg for the recipe farting party and frown upon any guest who as much as twicthes the nose, let alone starting to spray industrial strength air freshener around. Indeed, you'd have every right to feel offended is that guest with the freshener also lectured you that your not liking the spraying on your party is restrictive beghaviour, against diversity and free-thinking and it is positively bullying. By the way, some 20 years ago I thought that this whole top-posting nonsense was sorted out once and for all after a handful of really massive flame wars on USENET, crossposted all over the place and people getting so sick and tired of the whole thing that they plonked anyone even raising the issue again. Gee, was I wrong or what. It's like a phoenix, gets up again and again. Damned scary, really. Zoltan -- Roland Hughes, President Logikal Solutions (630)-205-1593 http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com http://www.infiniteexposure.net No U.S. troops have ever lost their lives defending our ethanol reserves. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org In case of problems unsubscribing, write to postmas...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
I don't know about [developers], but it sure wastes the hey out of [my] time. When you've read ten or more messages with the same subject line, you've got a fair idea what the next reply is about. Read the poster's comment, then scroll -- if necessary -- to read context, rather than scrolling for endless screens just to find the latest comment. Just my two one-hundredths oif a Federal Reserve Note's worth... -- I'm so busy, I don't know whether I found a rope or lost my horse! Earl -- From: NoOp gl...@sbcglobal.net To: users@libreoffice.org Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 11:15:53 PM Subject: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken On 05/30/2011 06:58 AM, Roland Hughes wrote: ... Bottom posting wastes vast quantities of developers time scrolling to the end. Full quoting is a policy mandated by most major corporations and IT organizations because it allows management (and the legal team) to jump into the conversation at any point. ... I suppose you can cite some case law, or some link to a corporation policy for this claim? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
On 2011-05-31 8:50 AM, Earl Melton wrote: I don't know about [developers], but it sure wastes the hey out of [my] time. When you've read ten or more messages with the same subject line, you've got a fair idea what the next reply is about. Read the poster's comment, then scroll -- if necessary -- to read context, rather than scrolling for endless screens just to find the latest comment. Just my two one-hundredths oif a Federal Reserve Note's worth... Please stop with the same old tired false premise/FUD... *No* *one* (in their right mind) advocates *untrimmed* bottom/inline posting, which, I *agree*, is the *only* thing that is worse than blindly top-posting. *Properly* *trimmed*, you generally don't have to scroll *at* *all*. Regardless of which method you engage in, you should *always* trim your quoted text to only the relevant portion. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
Top posting and full quoting has been the written policy at every Fortune 500 company I've consulted at in the past 20+ years. It's in that little policy guide handed to every new consultant and new employee...you know...the one you are supposed to read BEFORE you do anything. On Mon, 2011-05-30 at 21:15 -0700, NoOp wrote: On 05/30/2011 06:58 AM, Roland Hughes wrote: ... Bottom posting wastes vast quantities of developers time scrolling to the end. Full quoting is a policy mandated by most major corporations and IT organizations because it allows management (and the legal team) to jump into the conversation at any point. ... I suppose you can cite some case law, or some link to a corporation policy for this claim? -- Roland Hughes, President Logikal Solutions (630)-205-1593 http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com http://www.infiniteexposure.net No U.S. troops have ever lost their lives defending our ethanol reserves. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
Original Message Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:04:19 -0400 From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org To: users@libreoffice.org On 2011-05-31 8:50 AM, Earl Melton wrote: I don't know about [developers], but it sure wastes the hey out of [my] time. When you've read ten or more messages with the same subject line, you've got a fair idea what the next reply is about. Read the poster's comment, then scroll -- if necessary -- to read context, rather than scrolling for endless screens just to find the latest comment. Just my two one-hundredths oif a Federal Reserve Note's worth... Please stop with the same old tired false premise/FUD... *No* *one* (in their right mind) advocates *untrimmed* bottom/inline posting, which, I *agree*, is the *only* thing that is worse than blindly top-posting. *Properly* *trimmed*, you generally don't have to scroll *at* *all*. Regardless of which method you engage in, you should *always* trim your quoted text to only the relevant portion. This is getting to be a pretty tiresome thread, and it is obvious that the main protagonists are never going to change their views, no matter how right or wrong they are. However, you've hit the nail on the head, tanstaafl. Maybe no one *advocates* untrimmed bottom posting, but many people do it, and it is extremely counter-productive in so many ways. Notwithstanding all your emphases above, the fact is that *very* *few* people, particularly those writing in non-newsgroup environments but also many many newsgroup posters, do any trimming, let alone the 'proper trimming' to which you refer. That is one, just one, of the reasons why most people top-post and will continue to do so. I get so sick of being forced to page down to see the latest text that, unless it is a subject in which I am particularly interested, I will often delete the message unread if the latest contribution is not visible on the first screen page. This message is bottom-posted only because the last one was. Lindsay Graham Canberra, Australia -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
Here Here! I would add that trimmers _almost always_ quote out of context, chopping off sentences and paragraphs in such a way as to completely change the meaning of the original poster, so they can spin a conversation away from its central topic towards something which makes their insignificant lives seem to have meaning...Think Glen Beck and Fox News On Tue, 2011-05-31 at 23:20 +0800, Lindsay Graham wrote: Original Message Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:04:19 -0400 From: Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org To: users@libreoffice.org On 2011-05-31 8:50 AM, Earl Melton wrote: I don't know about [developers], but it sure wastes the hey out of [my] time. When you've read ten or more messages with the same subject line, you've got a fair idea what the next reply is about. Read the poster's comment, then scroll -- if necessary -- to read context, rather than scrolling for endless screens just to find the latest comment. Just my two one-hundredths oif a Federal Reserve Note's worth... Please stop with the same old tired false premise/FUD... *No* *one* (in their right mind) advocates *untrimmed* bottom/inline posting, which, I *agree*, is the *only* thing that is worse than blindly top-posting. *Properly* *trimmed*, you generally don't have to scroll *at* *all*. Regardless of which method you engage in, you should *always* trim your quoted text to only the relevant portion. This is getting to be a pretty tiresome thread, and it is obvious that the main protagonists are never going to change their views, no matter how right or wrong they are. However, you've hit the nail on the head, tanstaafl. Maybe no one *advocates* untrimmed bottom posting, but many people do it, and it is extremely counter-productive in so many ways. Notwithstanding all your emphases above, the fact is that *very* *few* people, particularly those writing in non-newsgroup environments but also many many newsgroup posters, do any trimming, let alone the 'proper trimming' to which you refer. That is one, just one, of the reasons why most people top-post and will continue to do so. I get so sick of being forced to page down to see the latest text that, unless it is a subject in which I am particularly interested, I will often delete the message unread if the latest contribution is not visible on the first screen page. This message is bottom-posted only because the last one was. Lindsay Graham Canberra, Australia -- Roland Hughes, President Logikal Solutions (630)-205-1593 http://www.theminimumyouneedtoknow.com http://www.infiniteexposure.net No U.S. troops have ever lost their lives defending our ethanol reserves. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
On 2011-05-31 11:20 AM, Lindsay Graham wrote: I get so sick of being forced to page down to see the latest text that, unless it is a subject in which I am particularly interested, I will often delete the message unread if the latest contribution is not visible on the first screen page. As do I... if someone is incapable of properly using their mail client, I'm probably not interested in anything they have to say, especially for computer related lists... That said, I do allow a lot more leeway on non-technical lists... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
On Tue, 31 May 2011 12:09:25 -0400, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote Re Re: [libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken: On 2011-05-31 11:20 AM, Lindsay Graham wrote: I get so sick of being forced to page down to see the latest text that, unless it is a subject in which I am particularly interested, I will often delete the message unread if the latest contribution is not visible on the first screen page. As do I... if someone is incapable of properly using their mail client, I'm probably not interested in anything they have to say, especially for computer related lists... +1 on that. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] [OT Top/Bottom posting] Re: Sun Weblog Publisher broken
On 05/30/2011 06:58 AM, Roland Hughes wrote: ... Bottom posting wastes vast quantities of developers time scrolling to the end. Full quoting is a policy mandated by most major corporations and IT organizations because it allows management (and the legal team) to jump into the conversation at any point. ... I suppose you can cite some case law, or some link to a corporation policy for this claim? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to users+h...@libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
