[libreoffice-users] Base: Questions From Potential New User
Running LO-4.3.5 on Slackware-14.1. I am developing a database application to be used by unsophisticated users, all running some flavor of Windows. I've not before used Base so if I can it will make distribution easier than writing it in Python/wxPython and SQLite. I've read the Base handbook and have two questions for which I've not found answers. The schema has 18 tables (including many-to-many intermediate tables) and numerous foreign key references; more may be added. Will Base handle this many tables? The DDL text file (using sqlite syntax) is approximately 200 lines. Can this be imported into Base so I do not need to re-key each line to create the tables and relationships? TIA, Rich -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base: Questions From Potential New User
Hi, From Base you can connect to your DB.. So no need to recreate anything. Base can be used to access the data in e.g. MySQL Liebe Grüße / Yours, Florian Reisinger Am 16.01.2015 um 17:00 schrieb Rich Shepard rshep...@appl-ecosys.com: Running LO-4.3.5 on Slackware-14.1. I am developing a database application to be used by unsophisticated users, all running some flavor of Windows. I've not before used Base so if I can it will make distribution easier than writing it in Python/wxPython and SQLite. I've read the Base handbook and have two questions for which I've not found answers. The schema has 18 tables (including many-to-many intermediate tables) and numerous foreign key references; more may be added. Will Base handle this many tables? The DDL text file (using sqlite syntax) is approximately 200 lines. Can this be imported into Base so I do not need to re-key each line to create the tables and relationships? TIA, Rich -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base: Questions From Potential New User
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015, Florian Reisinger wrote: From Base you can connect to your DB.. So no need to recreate anything. Base can be used to access the data in e.g. MySQL Florian, Yes, I read that. However, I do not see support for SQLite which is most appropriate for this application as it's a single-user, embedded rdbms. If I wanted a multi-user client-server rdbms I'd use postgres. Rich -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base: Questions From Potential New User
Rich , Florian is pointing in to the good direction, just connect LO base tot SQLite, google for Openoffice and SLQLite for some starting points Greetz Fernand On Fri, 16 Jan 2015, Florian Reisinger wrote: From Base you can connect to your DB.. So no need to recreate anything. Base can be used to access the data in e.g. MySQL Florian, Yes, I read that. However, I do not see support for SQLite which is most appropriate for this application as it's a single-user, embedded rdbms. If I wanted a multi-user client-server rdbms I'd use postgres. Rich -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base: Questions From Potential New User
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015, Fernand Vanrie wrote: Florian is pointing in to the good direction, just connect LO base tot SQLite, google for Openoffice and SLQLite for some starting points Fernand, Thank you, I'll do that. I did not see sqlite mentioned as supported in the handbook. Of course, the handbook is probably out of date. Regards, Rich -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
This is one way Base is more powerful than Access. That's the whole point. By not focusing on promoting Base as *the* generic client-side FOSS tool for access to client-server RDBMs, they're missing a *HUGE* opportunity. And since Rekall has vanished (despite being GPL), there's not much in terms of database tools (that don't require programming) in the FOSS world. Kexi isn't available anywhere else than on Linux and it's missing critical functionality (e.g. support for composite keys). Of course it one that keeps being kept quiet in the race to try to make it seem as limited as Access (because weeus only know Access, right??). It's possible to use different programs to access the same data and use it in different ways. Can Access be easily set-up as a networked database and able to be read by multiple different users on different machines at the same time as each other? In a reasonable way only with MS's own SQL Server. For anything else you afaik need to go through ODBC and the results are horrible. Trying to use Access as a client-side tool for e.g. PostgreSQL is like watching a glacier melt. At least it was the last time I tried. And that's not a problem of PostgreSQL ODBC support, but of the way that Access works with other databases than SQL Server. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
The weird thing is that Java is havely used in the Oracle databases. How com they can have quite reliable databases... Op 5 aug. 2014, om 15:35 heeft Tom Davies het volgende geschreven: Hi :) +1 I think Base nearly does do the best way around. The only problem is that the easiest thing, the embedded database, is currently dangerously broken. The devs appear to be addressing that although, obviously, they can't fix the whole thing all at one go. The first step seems reasonably well chosen to get the main bulk away from java. I'm sure Java didn't used to be so awful. It seems to have nose-dived since Oracle took over but maybe that is preparation for monetising it and that is a reasonable thing for a profit-making company to want to do. It's like the story of the scorpion and the fox crossing a river. The scorpion stings the fox and as they both sink the fox asks why. The scorpion replies that it's his nature to sting and he can't help it. So can we really blame a profit-making company from attempting to subvert a free product it owns in order to later be able to sell an enterprise or professional version? It's a shame openJava can't escape and gather a huge community as LibreOffice did back when OpenOffice was owned by Oracle. Base currently allows users to start of by using an internal back-end and then move it to an external tool when they are ready. [shrugs] Seems a good plan to me. Regards from Tom :) On 5 August 2014 13:33, Jon Harringdon jonathan.harring...@virgin.net wrote: Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. That would only confuse most end users. Hear, hear. The point is that the developers should make the most reasonable choice This mindset will not help LO broaden its user base. Users (even if most are apparently deemed stupid by some) should be in the driving seat and not some anonymous developers. Pip Coburn writes this about the tech industry: I believe that users are always in charge and that supply is a necessary but not sufficient condition for commercial success. Companies and products geared toward this holistic user orientation will succeed at far greater rates than those stuck in a supplier-oriented mind-set. As far as I'm concerned that hits the nail squarely on the head. And as to confusing users with complex choices... a well-designed system can be simple for simple needs and complex for complex needs. One-size-fits-all rarely fits anyone. IMHO etc. Jon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
I know that its not LO base specific but can,t find a way how to or example of something like this. What i want using cars as example is to make a search for color,year,doors,model.kilometers driven,cabrio,engine,fuel and so many more options. Who can help me on my way how to set somthing like this up ? Just RTFM. ;- For Base, the manual is at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/e8/BH40-BaseHandbook.pdf For relational databases in general, the DB-Main tutorial is pretty good imho: http://tinyurl.com/mrab534 http://tinyurl.com/md84k87 Or just google for a few keywords: http://tinyurl.com/pqdebuj Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Hi :) An rtfm answer that DOES link to documentation is still a bit rude but i like this one. It's the links that make it really useful. Do these links go to the same place? https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Base_Handbook https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 13:35, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: I know that its not LO base specific but can,t find a way how to or example of something like this. What i want using cars as example is to make a search for color,year,doors,model.kilometers driven,cabrio,engine,fuel and so many more options. Who can help me on my way how to set somthing like this up ? Just RTFM. ;- For Base, the manual is at: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/e/e8/BH40-BaseHandbook.pdf For relational databases in general, the DB-Main tutorial is pretty good imho: http://tinyurl.com/mrab534 http://tinyurl.com/md84k87 Or just google for a few keywords: http://tinyurl.com/pqdebuj Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
So, what appears to be happening is consensus that other database back-ends should be used. What is implied, is that Base does not have the ability to generate from a package, the selected external database of choice. 1. Is this correct? 2. Should it be corrected? 3. When generated, should 'internal' mean in the same folder, 'external' mean somewhere else? Thanks Paul On 8/4/2014 10:36 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. PostgreSQL is pretty foolproof to install and use. I know what I am talking about since I am the reference fool. It may be something different if you need to maintain it for running a huge database that gets a serious load of queries and transactions and needs to be fault-tolerant, accessible from the public Internet etc. But for home or small business use cases it's really simple. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Access is a dangerous heap of junk. I know of Access users who get their database corrupted roughly every four weeks on average. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. Base looks and feels like a perfectly credible CRUD and reporting frontend for a database. It's just the choice of an embedded database for storage that's a mistery for me. At best, it's useless to include HSQL. At worst, it might discredit LO as a whole. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Hi :) i think that could get really confusing! At the moment internal means within Base itself and external means anywhere else. However the anywhere else is really quite a vast range of places! And the back-end could even be moved from one place to another with very little change in Base. Such places as 1. Same folder as Base (might seem a no-brainer at first) 2. Same machine (desktop?) but different folder 3. A shared folder on a local network, such as on a company file-server I think back-ends can also be on; 4. A remote folder on an off-site machine 5. A database on a website 6. Up on a Cloud (err that is really 4 again, right?) This is one way Base is more powerful than Access. Of course it one that keeps being kept quiet in the race to try to make it seem as limited as Access (because weeus only know Access, right??). It's possible to use different programs to access the same data and use it in different ways. Can Access be easily set-up as a networked database and able to be read by multiple different users on different machines at the same time as each other? I think it can but needs someone seriously geeky. Base is designed to do it by default. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 15:44, Paul D. Mirowsky p_mirow...@bentaxna.com wrote: So, what appears to be happening is consensus that other database back-ends should be used. What is implied, is that Base does not have the ability to generate from a package, the selected external database of choice. 1. Is this correct? 2. Should it be corrected? 3. When generated, should 'internal' mean in the same folder, 'external' mean somewhere else? Thanks Paul On 8/4/2014 10:36 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. PostgreSQL is pretty foolproof to install and use. I know what I am talking about since I am the reference fool. It may be something different if you need to maintain it for running a huge database that gets a serious load of queries and transactions and needs to be fault-tolerant, accessible from the public Internet etc. But for home or small business use cases it's really simple. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Access is a dangerous heap of junk. I know of Access users who get their database corrupted roughly every four weeks on average. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. Base looks and feels like a perfectly credible CRUD and reporting frontend for a database. It's just the choice of an embedded database for storage that's a mistery for me. At best, it's useless to include HSQL. At worst, it might discredit LO as a whole. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Actually, it's just as easy to use Access as a front end to external DBMS' as it is to use Base. As long as an ODBC driver is available and registered in Windows, the external database looks like the native database. Just as in Base, the features of the external DBMS have to be exposed by the driver to be available to the front end. I know, because I've done it with more than one external DBMS. On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi :) i think that could get really confusing! At the moment internal means within Base itself and external means anywhere else. However the anywhere else is really quite a vast range of places! And the back-end could even be moved from one place to another with very little change in Base. Such places as 1. Same folder as Base (might seem a no-brainer at first) 2. Same machine (desktop?) but different folder 3. A shared folder on a local network, such as on a company file-server I think back-ends can also be on; 4. A remote folder on an off-site machine 5. A database on a website 6. Up on a Cloud (err that is really 4 again, right?) This is one way Base is more powerful than Access. Of course it one that keeps being kept quiet in the race to try to make it seem as limited as Access (because weeus only know Access, right??). It's possible to use different programs to access the same data and use it in different ways. Can Access be easily set-up as a networked database and able to be read by multiple different users on different machines at the same time as each other? I think it can but needs someone seriously geeky. Base is designed to do it by default. Regards from Tom :) On 6 August 2014 15:44, Paul D. Mirowsky p_mirow...@bentaxna.com wrote: So, what appears to be happening is consensus that other database back-ends should be used. What is implied, is that Base does not have the ability to generate from a package, the selected external database of choice. 1. Is this correct? 2. Should it be corrected? 3. When generated, should 'internal' mean in the same folder, 'external' mean somewhere else? Thanks Paul On 8/4/2014 10:36 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. PostgreSQL is pretty foolproof to install and use. I know what I am talking about since I am the reference fool. It may be something different if you need to maintain it for running a huge database that gets a serious load of queries and transactions and needs to be fault-tolerant, accessible from the public Internet etc. But for home or small business use cases it's really simple. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Access is a dangerous heap of junk. I know of Access users who get their database corrupted roughly every four weeks on average. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. Base looks and feels like a perfectly credible CRUD and reporting frontend for a database. It's just the choice of an embedded database for storage that's a mistery for me. At best, it's useless to include HSQL. At worst, it might discredit LO as a whole. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Op 4 aug. 2014, om 20:23 heeft Jean-Francois Nifenecker het volgende geschreven: Le 04/08/2014 18:59, dave boland a écrit : I'm getting a little confused. My understanding is that there are really two issues here. One is that LO Base is RAM resident - all updates are held in RAM until saved by the user, or the program is closed. Correct? If so, this situation will expose the user to data loss between saves. There are two components here: the DB engine (eg HSQLDB) and the front-end (ie LO-Base). In embedded mode, running Base stats the DB engine and opens the wanted database. In this situation, yes, database updates are set to ram until the database is saved, either voluntarily or when Base is shut down. And yes, any flaw in *any* piece of software running while Base and the DB also run, can create DB loss. It is important to separate embedded and incore. They are completely different things. The important thing is that embedded means that the dbms is not independent of the application... That said, the db crashes when the app crashes and vice versa. So, if a database runs 'as a service', listening to any incoming requests and serving them, then the database is separate. Yes, of course it can crash, but it should be impossible for the user or application to be the cause. Generally, for any dbms it should be top priority to keep data consistent. A dbms should be crash resistant, in that a transaction either is committed or is not, and not in any bogus state in between. In core, on the other hand means that (part of) the data is kept in core. That does not mean the db is not crash resistant, though. Oracle incore database (used to be Times Ten and now an option) does keep the data in core, but saves all change actions in a redo-log. Upon restarting after a crash the redo-log is executed so the database is back in the latest committed state. The same process is used for backup procedures. So, in that case one has the speed of incore, while the persistency of disk based. The other issue is that LO Base uses an embedded database, which means that the data files and the GUI, reports, etc. are combined into one file that can be corrupted. The suggestion is to use a split system where the data files are separate from the other files. Correct? If so, at best, the data may be a little safer, but forms, queries, etc. can still be corrupted. Yes, this is what split-mode is all about. A database like MySQL and mariadb cache the updates and then write them to disk every 1/2 to full second (or however configured). Seems like a good idea. So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. Would that be difficult to do? WRT HSQL it's just a couple settings away: (1) in LO global settings (Tools/Options, Advanced page) specify where the external HSQLDB engine is stored (Class Path button) - Add archive: points to the hsqldb.jar - Add Folder: points to the directory where hsqldb.jar is stored (lib dir) Then make sure to check the test button These setings are stored in the user profile /config directory. (2) in Base, DB creation wizard - at step 1 : select JDBC database - at step 2 : specify the DB address settings Datasource URL : hsqldb:file:d:/somedir/mybase/basetest;default_schema=true;shutdown=true;hsqldb.default_table_type=cached;get_column_name=false JDBC Driver class: org.hsqldb.jdbcDriver Test with the Test Class button. These settings are stored in the RegistryModifications.xcu file. To me, the main difficulty lies in the backup of these settings (config dir and RegistryModifications.xcu and the .odb file), so that you may change PC without hassle. Unless I'm missing the obvious, it is not the case currently. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. PostgreSQL is pretty foolproof to install and use. I know what I am talking about since I am the reference fool. It may be something different if you need to maintain it for running a huge database that gets a serious load of queries and transactions and needs to be fault-tolerant, accessible from the public Internet etc. But for home or small business use cases it's really simple. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Access is a dangerous heap of junk. I know of Access users who get their database corrupted roughly every four weeks on average. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. Base looks and feels like a perfectly credible CRUD and reporting frontend for a database. It's just the choice of an embedded database for storage that's a mistery for me. At best, it's useless to include HSQL. At worst, it might discredit LO as a whole. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Hi :) Sorry! I hadn't realised this was addressed to me only as a personal, off-list message. I was wondering why no-one responded! This mailing list is set-up so that you have to use Reply to all or Reply to List or similar option. The familiar Reply to doesn't work as it tyakes the message off-list. It's something we keep on having to explain to pretty much every new person who starts posting here, or seems like it!! Luckily there is nothing personal, inflammatory, embarrassing or anything so it was easy to see it could be forwarded back to the mailing list. The question is a good one imo and it's one i still haven't got a good answer to - despite it being an obvious question and probably handled quite a few times already. I think that if your current database IS working just fine then now is a good time to create a back-up of it. By that i simply mean right-click on the file and do copy and then in an empty space in amongst the files, beside the existing one just do paste. Any other copypaste of the file would do the same trick. There are all sorts of fancy back-up options but at core a back-up is just a copy. At work i tend to put a sub-folder in all of the main folders i use and call it OldVersions-BackUps and use it/them to dump all such backups and works-in-progress other than the most recent copy of a file. That way the main folder is, hopefully, less clutteredconfusing. I do tend to rename back-up files to put the date in reverse order at the end and maybe a v1 at the end so i can quickly tell which are newer and which are too ancient. As for how to migrate your existing tables to an external back-end i think that you can do this inside Base. I'm not sure if you have to set-up an external program first and a blank file for it and then in Base (maybe in the tables area?) do something like link to external source and create a blank table to copy your existing table into? Hmm, that sounds a bit wrong somewhere. Can you right-click on a table and do Save As .. to a Postgresql or MySql format?? I'm really hoping there is something easy like that! Of course having moved the table you might need to go into Queries and edit them to pick-up on the new table. Hopefully Forms and Reports are based on Queries so that they just keep on reading the same Queries (or new Queries once they have been renamed to the same as the old ones). Hopefully the migration should be fairly smooth or help you do a few tweaks to make the database more flexible ready for when you decide to change between different back-end in the future. Good luck!! Regards from Tom :) On 1 August 2014 08:20, Allan Newton al...@opticaldesign.co.uk wrote: Good Morning, I note the advice to use an external back end but where do I find information on how to do it on Windows systems, we sue Base for membership records of a club and committee members using both Windows 7 and Windows 8 use the data base. Thanks for any help __ Allan Newton -Original Message- From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomc...@gmail.com] Sent: 01 August 2014 00:09 To: Jean-Francois Nifenecker Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions Hi :) All the database experts and many others of us keep on recommending using an external back-end such as Postgresql, MySql/MariaDb or anything else. The devs are working on removing the current warped and ancient version of HsqlDb and replacing it with Firebird. Using the proper version of HsqlDb straight from their website as an external back-end apparently works really well in complete contrast to the embedded version. Regards from Tom :) On 31 July 2014 20:48, Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote: Le 31/07/2014 21:35, Rob Jasper a crit : If the normal Base file is not reliable, why do we have it in the first place? Either we (the community) must make it reliable, or we should abandon it and come with a reliable alternative. Not reliable is in fact not very acceptable. The documentation should describe when to use, and when not to use base. Simply generalizing in the FACs is not the right way to go, I think. Base is a very useful and versatile tool which deserves much attention. So, abandoning it would be a very bad idea, if you ask me. Dunno about the current developments (wrt FireBird embedding) but I do like Base for many uses: -- HSQL embedded mode: demo-ing, modelling, personal DBs, front-end to Calc spreadsheets or even text files -- HSQL file mode: everything else (professional single-user or multi-user DBs). In this situation, Base is a good front-end that could become excellent, if the devs where to focus on that (I've got no information here). The main question is how to switch from embedded mode to file mode? which I had a hard time figuring out. Fortunately, the web is you friend ;) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
1. How robust are embedded Base files created by the GUI? With an embedded database, any bug in the application (doesn't even have to crash) can corrupt your data. With a client-server database, it's essentially impossible for the client to corrupt the data. 2. If they are not that reliable, what is the LO Base procedure to create a split database? Split? 3. Anything else I need to know? Use a client-server RDBMS. PostgreSQL is legendary for its reliability and the SDBC driver comes with LO. Personally I wouldn't trust a database (MySQL and its descendents) whose original developers didn't even consider it necessary to enforce foreign key constraints. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
All the database experts and many others of us keep on recommending using an external back-end such as Postgresql, MySql/MariaDb or anything else. The devs are working on removing the current warped and ancient version of HsqlDb and replacing it with Firebird. Using the embedded version of Firebird won't solve the problem. I never understood why anyone halfway sane in their minds would use an embedded database anyway or why the developers of StarOffice/LO/OO even considered it. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
On Fri, 1 Aug 2014 12:55:48 +0200 Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: [snip] I never understood why anyone halfway sane in their minds would use an embedded database anyway or why the developers of StarOffice/LO/OO even considered it. Convenience, with a dash of necessity. Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. People will, anyway. Then complain when their db gets corrupted. Best thing people can do is regularly back up known good versions of their db. That's what I tell users of MS Access to do. (I am curious why anybody'd design a database tool like that to run entirely out of memory. Seems like asking for trouble.) Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Hi :) MS Access does it that way and therefore everyone else 'must' too. We can't sell Base by pointing out that it has huge advantages over Access. (One of those being that it's so much easier to connect it to an external back-end and is really kinda the default way of using Base). So we can only 'sell' it by saying that it's not quite as good as Access = but only at the stupidly dangerous things that are probably best to avoid. Base is more solid and flexible but we can't say that because people wont understand it. Errr, Jim is right except that it's extremely rare to find anyone who is able to install programs let alone an entire OS. His bar for the average computer user's skill level is far higher than my experience. HooRay for apps so that people have learned a bit about installing programs. Actually even using Calc puts people quite a lot higher up the skill scale than the average user as spreadsheets baffle most people. I disagree about using databases though. Often it would hugely simplify things that are horribly clunky and heavy at the moment. The problem is that Access puts normal users waaay outside their comfort-zone, gives them a very unfamiliar and somewhat scary interface and put them dangerously close to tools that make huge changes (such as being able to delete the tables). It's even 'difficult' to hide the design-tools so users can easily accidentally change the layout of a Form in a really bad way. Sadly they seem unable to figure out how to move things back again! Anyone actually using a database can put themselves in the top 20% of computer users imo, probably a lot higher but that depends on whether they designed it or maintain it or how simple it is (simplifying it takes it a step further). Regards from Tom :) On 1 August 2014 12:15, Jim Seymour jseym...@linxnet.com wrote: On Fri, 1 Aug 2014 12:55:48 +0200 Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: [snip] I never understood why anyone halfway sane in their minds would use an embedded database anyway or why the developers of StarOffice/LO/OO even considered it. Convenience, with a dash of necessity. Average end-user is challenged enough just installing an O/S and productivity suite, and learning how to use them, much less a real RDBMS. Plus: MS Office (Pro) has one, so LibréOffice and relatives have to have one. Yes: Such tools should never, ever be used for anything very important. People will, anyway. Then complain when their db gets corrupted. Best thing people can do is regularly back up known good versions of their db. That's what I tell users of MS Access to do. (I am curious why anybody'd design a database tool like that to run entirely out of memory. Seems like asking for trouble.) Regards, Jim -- Note: My mail server employs *very* aggressive anti-spam filtering. If you reply to this email and your email is rejected, please accept my apologies and let me know via my web form at http://jimsun.LinxNet.com/contact/scform.php. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] Base questions
All, Was reading the FAQ at https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/FAQ_%28Base%29 and came upon some insight that worries me. Under the heading So why should I avoid 'embedded databases'? it goes on to say the normal Base file is not reliable, so use a split file, the points to Microsoft docs. My questions are: 1. How robust are embedded Base files created by the GUI? 2. If they are not that reliable, what is the LO Base procedure to create a split database? 3. Anything else I need to know? I'm going ahead with using Base for a project for now. Once the data has stabilized (fields, field type, number of tables), I'll move to either Mysql or Mariadb. Thanks, Dave -- dave boland dbola...@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
If the normal Base file is not reliable, why do we have it in the first place? Either we (the community) must make it reliable, or we should abandon it and come with a reliable alternative. Not reliable is in fact not very acceptable. The documentation should describe when to use, and when not to use base. Simply generalizing in the FACs is not the right way to go, I think. Rob. Op 31 jul. 2014, om 21:22 heeft dave boland het volgende geschreven: All, Was reading the FAQ at https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/FAQ_%28Base%29 and came upon some insight that worries me. Under the heading So why should I avoid 'embedded databases'? it goes on to say the normal Base file is not reliable, so use a split file, the points to Microsoft docs. My questions are: 1. How robust are embedded Base files created by the GUI? 2. If they are not that reliable, what is the LO Base procedure to create a split database? 3. Anything else I need to know? I'm going ahead with using Base for a project for now. Once the data has stabilized (fields, field type, number of tables), I'll move to either Mysql or Mariadb. Thanks, Dave -- dave boland dbola...@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access your email from home and the web -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Hi Dave, Le 31/07/2014 21:22, dave boland a écrit : All, Was reading the FAQ at https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/FAQ_%28Base%29 and came upon some insight that worries me. Under the heading So why should I avoid 'embedded databases'? it goes on to say the normal Base file is not reliable, so use a split file, the points to Microsoft docs. My questions are: 1. How robust are embedded Base files created by the GUI? Not much, because when Base is running, the whole DB is in memory. Any crash (from any origin) may corrupt the DB and make it completely unreadable. A daily backup is necessary. 2. If they are not that reliable, what is the LO Base procedure to create a split database? 3. Anything else I need to know? Can you read French? I've written a document about just that. Title How to get rid of the Base HSQLDB embedded mode. My sources were various wikis, forums and mailing lists messages (EN and FR) that I reviewed, rephrased and assembled. If anyone is interested in translating from FR, it's ok by me (there are 39 pages in all and there remains one or two draft paragraphs). The current license is CC-BY-SA. Feel free to contact me in PM. HTH, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Le 31/07/2014 21:35, Rob Jasper a écrit : If the normal Base file is not reliable, why do we have it in the first place? Either we (the community) must make it reliable, or we should abandon it and come with a reliable alternative. Not reliable is in fact not very acceptable. The documentation should describe when to use, and when not to use base. Simply generalizing in the FACs is not the right way to go, I think. Base is a very useful and versatile tool which deserves much attention. So, abandoning it would be a very bad idea, if you ask me. Dunno about the current developments (wrt FireBird embedding) but I do like Base for many uses: -- HSQL embedded mode: demo-ing, modelling, personal DBs, front-end to Calc spreadsheets or even text files -- HSQL file mode: everything else (professional single-user or multi-user DBs). In this situation, Base is a good front-end that could become excellent, if the devs where to focus on that (I've got no information here). The main question is how to switch from embedded mode to file mode? which I had a hard time figuring out. Fortunately, the web is you friend ;) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Base questions
Hi :) All the database experts and many others of us keep on recommending using an external back-end such as Postgresql, MySql/MariaDb or anything else. The devs are working on removing the current warped and ancient version of HsqlDb and replacing it with Firebird. Using the proper version of HsqlDb straight from their website as an external back-end apparently works really well in complete contrast to the embedded version. Regards from Tom :) On 31 July 2014 20:48, Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote: Le 31/07/2014 21:35, Rob Jasper a écrit : If the normal Base file is not reliable, why do we have it in the first place? Either we (the community) must make it reliable, or we should abandon it and come with a reliable alternative. Not reliable is in fact not very acceptable. The documentation should describe when to use, and when not to use base. Simply generalizing in the FACs is not the right way to go, I think. Base is a very useful and versatile tool which deserves much attention. So, abandoning it would be a very bad idea, if you ask me. Dunno about the current developments (wrt FireBird embedding) but I do like Base for many uses: -- HSQL embedded mode: demo-ing, modelling, personal DBs, front-end to Calc spreadsheets or even text files -- HSQL file mode: everything else (professional single-user or multi-user DBs). In this situation, Base is a good front-end that could become excellent, if the devs where to focus on that (I've got no information here). The main question is how to switch from embedded mode to file mode? which I had a hard time figuring out. Fortunately, the web is you friend ;) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
