subject:"OT\: IBM to buy RedHat"

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 11:30 PM Rick Stevens  wrote:
> On 10/31/18 1:32 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
>>
>> as far as I can see Centos is owned by Red Hat and so by IBM if the
>> offer goes through, Guthub is owned by Microsoft. Increasing
>> concentration of services and so control is routine, just not what I'd
>> prefer to see.
>
> First off, CentOS may be _affiliated_ with Red Hat, but they are not
> _owned_ by Red Hat. CentOS is run by centos.org and is a community-
> supported program.

"The ownership of the CentOS trademarks, along with the requirement that
the board have a majority of Red Hat employees makes it clear that, for
all the talk of partnership and joining forces, this is really an
acquisition by Red Hat. The CentOS project will live on, but as a
subsidiary of Red Hat—much as Fedora is today."

from https://lwn.net/Articles/579551/

"Furthermore, some of the existing CentOS Core members are moving to
take up roles at Red Hat, as a part of their sponsorship of the CentOS
Project, allowing these people to work on the Project as their primary
job function. This includes Johnny Hughes Jr, Jim Perrin, Fabian
Arrotin, and myself. We will be working with and operating out of the
Red Hat Open Source and Standards team in the CTO's Office."

from https://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-announce/2014-January/020100.html
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 9:48 PM Dave Stevens  wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100 Tom H  wrote:
>>
>> (in git form these days)
>
> another monopolist service, yes?

?!

RH has chosen git in the same way that it's chosen rpm/yum.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-31 Thread Rick Stevens

On 10/31/18 1:32 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:20:45 -0400
> Todd Zullinger  wrote:
> 
>> Dave Stevens wrote:
>>> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100
>>> Tom H  wrote:
>>>   
 (in git form these days)  
>>>
>>> another monopolist service, yes?
>>> not reassuring  
>>
>> No.  The sources are at https://git.centos.org/.  There's
>> nothing there you can't access via free software.
>>
>> Perhaps you're conflating Github with git?
>>
> 
> as far as I can see Centos is owned by Red Hat and so by IBM if the
> offer goes through, Guthub is owned by Microsoft. Increasing
> concentration of services and so control is routine, just not what I'd
> prefer to see.

First off, CentOS may be _affiliated_ with Red Hat, but they are not
_owned_ by Red Hat. CentOS is run by centos.org and is a community-
supported program. Yes, they use Red Hat's source RPMs, but they rebrand
them and publishe the resulting content as (essentially) "free" RHEL.
There is no commercial support for CentOS. CentOS follows the RHEL
update schedule, but lags a bit behind due to the extra work they have
to do to rebrand things.

Yes, Github is owned by Microsoft, but the sources for CentOS are on a
git server at the CentOS farm (https://git.centos.org), NOT on Github.
Red Hat puts nothing they generate on Github. Neither does CentOS. If
there is code there, some third party did it.
--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-  Diplomacy: The art of saying "Nice doggy!" until you can find a   -
-big enough rock.-
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-31 Thread Dave Stevens

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:20:45 -0400
Todd Zullinger  wrote:

> Dave Stevens wrote:
> > On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100
> > Tom H  wrote:
> >   
> >> (in git form these days)  
> > 
> > another monopolist service, yes?
> > not reassuring  
> 
> No.  The sources are at https://git.centos.org/.  There's
> nothing there you can't access via free software.
> 
> Perhaps you're conflating Github with git?
> 

as far as I can see Centos is owned by Red Hat and so by IBM if the
offer goes through, Guthub is owned by Microsoft. Increasing
concentration of services and so control is routine, just not what I'd
prefer to see.

D

-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

- Ursula Le Guin
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-31 Thread Todd Zullinger

Dave Stevens wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100
> Tom H  wrote:
> 
>> (in git form these days)
> 
> another monopolist service, yes?
> not reassuring

No.  The sources are at https://git.centos.org/.  There's
nothing there you can't access via free software.

Perhaps you're conflating Github with git?

-- 
Todd
~~
I'm not concerned about all hell breaking loose, but that a PART of
hell will break loose... it'll be much harder to detect.
-- George Carlin



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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-31 Thread Dave Stevens

On Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:34:56 +0100
Tom H  wrote:

> (in git form these days)

another monopolist service, yes?
not reassuring

d


-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

- Ursula Le Guin
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-31 Thread Raman Gupta

On 29/10/18 02:56 AM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> "Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the
> Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and
> services between consenting parties".  Under the Free Market, to meet
> your
> own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.

Hey man, saw this post on the Fedora mailing list. While it was way
off topic :-) and inevitably and predictably set off a shitstorm, I
just wanted to say thank you. Some days it seems like there aren't
many of us out there that still believe this, and even those of us
that are don't usually speak up for fear of the backlash. So thanks.

The cognitive dissonance of people who would likely not be alive, let
alone sitting in heated homes, typing on powerful computers, that
deride the very same capitalism that provides them with these bounties
always amazes me. They just assume these things are "just here"
*somehow*, and that the only social question is how to "distribute" them.

Regards,
Raman
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-31 Thread Ian Malone

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 05:42, ToddAndMargo via users
 wrote:
>
> On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>
> >> The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
> >> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
> >> date.
>
> > Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
> > will run for years.
>
> Glad you asked.  I make that statement from my experience with RHEL
> and Clones.
>
> What RHEL does is to make some minor tweaks and freeze a defunct
> version of Fedora.  It is by design, meaning purposefully, an
> anti-Kaisen operating system for the reasons you described.
> If you only run what is in the box, it will  run and run
> as your described.
>

This is not what RHEL is, or how it is made. The rest of your post
illustrates that you don't actually know what RHEL is for. If you need
to support validated systems then you do not want an OS that changes
every six months and wont run unless every component in it is
upgraded. They both have a place.

-- 
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 12:30 PM Patrick O'Callaghan
 wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-10-30 at 23:45 +, Rick Stevens wrote:
>>
>> And remember, under that cute, glitzy desktop, OSX is simply BSD
>> Unix. (S! Don't tell anyone! It's a secret!)
>
> Sure, but the complete MacOS is not "simply" BSD. It's a BSD (actually
> XNU)-based kernel with an enormous amount of additional non-free
> stuff, including the whole UI system, filesystems, drivers etc., which
> is what makes the real difference to the end user.

macOS's base OS is Darwin, which uses a XNU kernel, which is a hybrid
of a Mach microkernel and some FreeBSD and Apple/NeXT kernel code.

The basic userland, "cp" "ifconfig" "ls" "...", is from an old version
of FreeBSD. And it you look at "/etc/", it's FreeBSDish, but not
necessarily used.

Apple overlays its own tech, GUI and CLI, over all of this. For
example, if you run "cat /etc/{master.,}passwd" you'll only find
"root", "daemon", "nobody", and the macOS "service" users (like
"_networkd"). The "actual" users are held in an ldap db. For example,
you can change a user's shell via the "dscl" CLI tool or via the GUI
system preferences advanced user options.

macOS's Unix but not *BSD.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 9:56 PM ToddAndMargo via users
 wrote:

> It is beyond me how Red Hat manages to so bugger up Fedora
> when they convert it to RHEL.

it's a big leap to go from "I don't like the choices that RH makes
regarding updates of RHEL vX packages to "bugger up Fedora!"

> If I were to speculate, I do believe it is the Open Source
> economic model coming to play. You give away to software
> and charge for the services. If you want something fixed,
> you have to pay for it.

I don't think that any RH client considers RHEL as being given away by
RH because the RHEL rpms and the RHEL licenses come hand in hand.

RH does give away its srpms (in git form these days) for anyone to
use, like CentOS and Scientific Linux.

It's a money and resource issue, of course! If a corporation with 10k
licenses had asked for your qemu problem to be fixed, it would've been
fixed.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-31 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan

On Tue, 2018-10-30 at 14:52 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 12:47 PM Patrick O'Callaghan 
> wrote:
> 
> > Now we're really getting OT. I lived in Venezuela for over 30 years and
> > think I know more about the situation there than pretty much anyone
> > else on this list. I do NOT want to discuss it here.
> > 
> > I suggest this thread stay on topic and be limited to specific comments
> > on the IBM acquisition and what it may mean.
> 
> 
> I agree. My undergraduate was political science and the real world is
> extremely nuanced and complicated and treacherous, and the terms used in
> politics have almost entirely different meanings in political science.
> 
> The vast majority of this thread reminds me of Feynman being asked about
> magnetism. YouTube it. It's hilarious and spot on. He's like, 'I can't even
> have a coherent conversion about it (with the interviewer) because while
> the question is reasonable and interesting, without a basic (which isn't so
> basic) common frame of reference every answer I give you, you won't
> understand, and every metaphor I use is cheating you of a valid answer and
> therefore misleading.'
> 
> Single quote denotes paraphrasing.

+1

poc
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-31 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan

On Tue, 2018-10-30 at 23:45 +, Rick Stevens wrote:
> And remember,
> under that cute, glitzy desktop, OSX is simply BSD Unix. (S! Don't
> tell anyone! It's a secret!)

Sure, but the complete MacOS is not "simply" BSD. It's a BSD (actually
XNU)-based kernel with an enormous amount of additional non-free stuff,
including the whole UI system, filesystems, drivers etc., which is what
makes the real difference to the end user.

poc
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Chris Murphy

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 7:45 PM, Rick Stevens  wrote:

> Huh? They're just configuration-restricted PC-style laptops. There's
> nothing magical about the hardware anymore. There's no "IWM" chip in
> them. They're just laptops, which is why Linux will run on them.

Ahh they're able to run Linux mainly because they still abstract their
hardware with (U)EFI, ACPI and AHCI like other commodity hardware. But
I can't fully agree with the idea there's nothing magical about their
hardware - or rather I'd say unusual/proprietary/special. They are
baking in special things that we cannot use, including the finger
print reader, and T2 chip, and although I don't have anything new to
test this on someone told me their recent Macbook (last year or two)
they keyboard isn't recognized at all by Linux - which doesn't make
any sense to me.

Also, I know the latest Mac laptops released this summer now support
Secure Boot. However, they lack the Microsoft UEFI signing key, so
there aren't any Linux distros that can boot with Secure Boot out of
the box, since pretty much everyone depends on shim.efi or something
like it, being signed by the Microsoft UEFI signing key. And so far,
near as I can tell, there isn't end user key management for Apple
hardware.

So consider that I have a frownie face when it comes to future support
of any Linux on Apple hardware.

By the way folks: "Mac OS X" or "OS X" are the older but acceptable
terms, and the latest term is "macOS" If you're using something else,
you're kinda being like Dr Evil in this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeS-Xb5u4-U

-- 
Chris Murphy
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Doug



On 10/30/2018 07:45 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 10/30/18 4:16 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/30/18 4:07 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:


What I find different supporting Linux and OSx (weird for
the sake of weirdness) over Windows is that with Linux and OSx
I am helping set up things and assisting with program usage.

Tip on OSx, carry your own mouse and a Live Fedora Stick.
Press the flower key when booting a live stick.

The artsy-fartsy mouse that ships with Macs drives
me nuts.  Weird for the sake of weirdness.

Gnome is on the weird side, but Apple hardware
takes the cake.

/snip/

Well, yeah, but as you said, Gnome's weird. KDE is weird if you're 
used to Gnome or Xfce.
I have been using KDE for years, and I think it's a natural for anyone 
used to Windows--i.e., most
all of us. Some of the Linux versions I have seen--the last time I 
looked at Ubuntu, for instance--
seem to have gone out of their way to make everything Windowish work 
backwards! The
panel at the top, the window controls on the left--ugh! And some version 
has the panel on the
left side of the screen. What are they trying to prove? Now the version 
I run (PCLOS) took the
windows controls and made them into a traffic light--red, green and 
yellow. After all, MS did
NOT invent windows, Xerox did. MS only refined it, and at XP made a 
pretty good desktop.

(Never mind all the problems Windows brings up!)
Rant off!   --doug



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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 4:45 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

but Apple hardware
takes the cake.



Huh? They're just configuration-restricted PC-style laptops.


I wasn't referring to the internals.  I was referring to their
weird mice and keyboards.  I hate their keyboards.  I am
a buckling spring guy.  (I have know how to type since I was
17.)

> OSX is simply BSD Unix. (S! Don't tell anyone! It's a secret!)

You should hear their consternation when you tell them that.
If you want to stay on their good side, you have to all
it "posix unix".  Chuckle.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

On 10/30/18 4:16 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> On 10/30/18 4:07 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> 
>> What I find different supporting Linux and OSx (weird for
>> the sake of weirdness) over Windows is that with Linux and OSx
>> I am helping set up things and assisting with program usage.
> 
> Tip on OSx, carry your own mouse and a Live Fedora Stick.
> Press the flower key when booting a live stick.
> 
> The artsy-fartsy mouse that ships with Macs drives
> me nuts.  Weird for the sake of weirdness.
> 
> Gnome is on the weird side, but Apple hardware
> takes the cake.  

Huh? They're just configuration-restricted PC-style laptops. There's
nothing magical about the hardware anymore. There's no "IWM" chip in
them. They're just laptops, which is why Linux will run on them. One
of the strengths of Linux is it's pretty hardware-agnostic. This also
can be a shortcoming, too, as hardware vendors often won't share data
needed to build drivers, so those are often reverse engineered and may
not have all the "features" one might want.

> And I am constantly having to explain
> to folks how to use OSx's weird task bar at the top.

Well, yeah, but as you said, Gnome's weird. KDE is weird if you're
used to Gnome or Xfce. Xfce is weird if you're used to something else.
Every desktop is "different" and takes getting used to. And remember,
under that cute, glitzy desktop, OSX is simply BSD Unix. (S! Don't
tell anyone! It's a secret!)
--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-Huked on foniks reely wurked for me!-
--
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 4:07 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:


What I find different supporting Linux and OSx (weird for
the sake of weirdness) over Windows is that with Linux and OSx
I am helping set up things and assisting with program usage.


Tip on OSx, carry your own mouse and a Live Fedora Stick.
Press the flower key when booting a live stick.

The artsy-fartsy mouse that ships with Macs drives
me nuts.  Weird for the sake of weirdness.

Gnome is on the weird side, but Apple hardware
takes the cake.  And I am constantly having to explain
to folks how to use OSx's weird task bar at the top.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 3:47 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 15:37:39 -0700
ToddAndMargo via users  wrote:


Windows 10 causes my customers all kinds of trouble.  But
they can do nothing about it.


why not run linux as a subsystem where it fits? They'd have quite a lot
of knowledge already about office(s) and browsers, those skills should
transfer ok.

Dave


Believe me.  EVERYWHERE I can, I run it.

Fedora makes a great file server too.

I just quoted a lady who only wants a simple, off line computer
to run freecell.  (The one you guys helped me with a great
collection of granny games.)

I have another elderly lady whose Dell will no longer operate
with Windows.  Happens as the motherboard degrades.  Put her
on Fedora 25 and she just runs and runs and runs.  Had to
show her where the print button was on Thunderbird once and
had to install a new printer for her once too.  Nothing
ever goes wrong.

What I find different supporting Linux and OSx (weird for
the sake of weirdness) over Windows is that with Linux and OSx
I am helping set up things and assisting with program usage.

I do the same with Windows, but I also spend a ton of
time on system and quality issues, not to mention junkware
and such.

I really hate putting   together custom system with Windows
Nein, oops, Windows Ten.  It is such utter junk.  It is
what it is.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Dave Stevens

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 15:37:39 -0700
ToddAndMargo via users  wrote:

> Windows 10 causes my customers all kinds of trouble.  But
> they can do nothing about it.

why not run linux as a subsystem where it fits? They'd have quite a lot
of knowledge already about office(s) and browsers, those skills should
transfer ok.

Dave


-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

- Ursula Le Guin
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 3:15 PM, jdow wrote:

Not superior in many cases in the most important criterion of all.
Does it run the software you need to use? There are times the answer
to that question is a simple "no and likely won't for quite some
time to come." If you are a serious user then you pick the OS that
runs the software you want to use. If you are a computer hobbyist,
you can use whatever OS suits your fancy and find fun things to do
with it. For AV work Macs are arguably "the best" with Windows "not
bad" and Linux "pathetic at best", especially for live AV work.


Exactly.  It does not matter how technically superior an OS
is if it will not run the software you need.  This is Linux's
downfall and why it has not been adopted more widely.  It is
what it is.

I would not have a job if not for M$.  M$ will go down in
the history of marketing as the company that managed to
sell "defective" ice makers to Eskimos.

Windows 10 causes my customers all kinds of trouble.  But
they can do nothing about it.

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread jdow


On 20181030 14:48, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/30/18 2:12 PM, bruce wrote:

I am staying away from politics on the forum.  Sufice
it to say, dems do like their cheese.



and if you think "fedora" is better than the os that msoft creates..
really???  guess it depends on what you consider "better"... 


I am IT support to small businesses.  I mainly work on
Windows, so I get to compare Linux and Windows on a daily
basis.  My own business is Linux based.  I wish I had
more Linux clients, but ..

Fedora is technically superior to Windows in every respect.
Folks do not use it because M$ has son the application wars.
A small business can not run on Linux. It is what it is.


Not superior in many cases in the most important criterion of all.
Does it run the software you need to use? There are times the answer
to that question is a simple "no and likely won't for quite some
time to come." If you are a serious user then you pick the OS that
runs the software you want to use. If you are a computer hobbyist,
you can use whatever OS suits your fancy and find fun things to do
with it. For AV work Macs are arguably "the best" with Windows "not
bad" and Linux "pathetic at best", especially for live AV work.

Now, can we leave off the po1itics? We can wait and see what
happens. Starting off whining and whimpering simply buys stress
and problems over worries about something that may not happen and
over which you have no control. Yeah, I have worries. But, I have
a life to live so I am getting on with it. I just could not let
your calumny above ride. It was ill thought out.

{o.o}
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 2:12 PM, bruce wrote:

I am staying away from politics on the forum.  Sufice
it to say, dems do like their cheese.



and if you think "fedora" is better than the os that msoft creates..
really???  guess it depends on what you consider "better"...  


I am IT support to small businesses.  I mainly work on
Windows, so I get to compare Linux and Windows on a daily
basis.  My own business is Linux based.  I wish I had
more Linux clients, but ..

Fedora is technically superior to Windows in every respect.
Folks do not use it because M$ has son the application wars.
A small business can not run on Linux. It is what it is.



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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

On 10/30/18 1:37 PM, Greg Woods wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 1:33 PM Rick Stevens  > wrote:
> 
> 
> Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
> 
> 
> You can still buy S/390's, but the big money is not in mainframes, but
> in supercomputers. It used to be (in the days of Seymour Cray) that a
> supercomputer just had a really fast processor that could do vector
> processing (running the same instruction on a whole block of memory
> locations in parallel in a single clock tick), but we have pretty much
> gotten to light speed limitations on how fast a processor can be, so 
> IBM's supercomputers these days are clusters of thousands of processors
> and cores, exchanging data over specialized high-speed fabrics such as
> Infiniband.  Linux is critical to making this work (as well as
> specialized application libraries to support interprocess communication
> on such as system). The IBM supercomputers I have seen all use a variant
> of Red Hat Linux, so I wouldn't be surprised if acquiring Linux
> developers might not be the main reason for IBM to want to buy Red Hat.

That's what I was getting at. The original mainframe concept is fairly
passe' now. What we have are massively parallel compute platforms now.
They were very niche before (Cray, Connection Machines, Comprex, et al),
but now seem to be more mainstream and generally more expandable.

I agree that the manner in which Linux (or any truly multi-threaded
system) works makes sense for such platforms. The few supercomputers
I've seen also used Linux or some variant of BSD/Unix. Getting in-house
talent to support those things is a reasonable goal. However, Linux (the
kernel) and Gnu/Linux (the system) have built-in safeguards in their
licensing that would prevent IBM from taking the code private (not that
they wouldn't try).

Now, will they (IBM) allow Red Hat to continue developing (for lack of a
better term) public domain code? That's what worries we Fedorans (sic)
as a group. It's a good question and one we really can't answer at this
time.

I'm hoping IBM leaves Red Hat more-or-less alone. Red Hat's been
successful using their existing model--which is why IBM wanted them in
the first place. There's little good in buggering a working model. If
it's not broken, don't try to fix it. Or, as G. Harry Stine wrote in
"Force of Arms", "If it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid!"
--
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com -
- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
-   "I'd explain it to you, but your brain might explode."   -
--
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread bruce

sooo...

all left leaning dems... all we want is to have the gubment do
everything.. while we just suck off dat gov cheeze??

good lord dude.. what/where did you sprout from???

and if you think "fedora" is better than the os that msoft creates..
really???  guess it depends on what you consider "better"...   but
flame wars are for people who have plenty of spare time...



On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 4:55 PM ToddAndMargo via users
 wrote:
>
> On 10/30/18 12:53 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:19:44 -0700
> > Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> >
> >> ToddAndMargo:
> >>
> >> Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
> >> might be coming in RHEL/Centos
> >>
> >> Paul
> >
> > yes but not as good as a written roadmap
> >
> > d
> >
>
> It is beyond me how Red Hat manages to so bugger up Fedora
> when they convert it to RHEL.
>
> If I were to speculate, I do believe it is the Open Source
> economic model coming to play.  You give away to software
> and charge for the services.  If you want something fixed,
> you have to pay for it.  Code Weaver and Wine is another
> example of this.  (Thank goodness for Wine Staging!)
>
> And, if you can not afford to place Red Hat's or Code Weaver's
> developers on your payroll, you are relegates to begging and
> swearing or do it yourself if you have the chops.
>
> I could be wrong.
>
>
>
>
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Chris Murphy

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 12:47 PM Patrick O'Callaghan 
wrote:

> Now we're really getting OT. I lived in Venezuela for over 30 years and
> think I know more about the situation there than pretty much anyone
> else on this list. I do NOT want to discuss it here.
>
> I suggest this thread stay on topic and be limited to specific comments
> on the IBM acquisition and what it may mean.

I agree. My undergraduate was political science and the real world is
extremely nuanced and complicated and treacherous, and the terms used in
politics have almost entirely different meanings in political science.

The vast majority of this thread reminds me of Feynman being asked about
magnetism. YouTube it. It's hilarious and spot on. He's like, 'I can't even
have a coherent conversion about it (with the interviewer) because while
the question is reasonable and interesting, without a basic (which isn't so
basic) common frame of reference every answer I give you, you won't
understand, and every metaphor I use is cheating you of a valid answer and
therefore misleading.'

Single quote denotes paraphrasing.

Chris Murphy
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Greg Woods

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 1:33 PM Rick Stevens  wrote:

>
> Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
>

You can still buy S/390's, but the big money is not in mainframes, but in
supercomputers. It used to be (in the days of Seymour Cray) that a
supercomputer just had a really fast processor that could do vector
processing (running the same instruction on a whole block of memory
locations in parallel in a single clock tick), but we have pretty much
gotten to light speed limitations on how fast a processor can be, so  IBM's
supercomputers these days are clusters of thousands of processors and
cores, exchanging data over specialized high-speed fabrics such as
Infiniband.  Linux is critical to making this work (as well as specialized
application libraries to support interprocess communication on such as
system). The IBM supercomputers I have seen all use a variant of Red Hat
Linux, so I wouldn't be surprised if acquiring Linux developers might not
be the main reason for IBM to want to buy Red Hat.

--Greg
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Kevin Fenzi

Please move the politics to some other forum.

kevin



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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Paul Allen Newell




On 10/30/2018 12:53 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:19:44 -0700
Paul Allen Newell  wrote:


ToddAndMargo:

Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
might be coming in RHEL/Centos

Paul

yes but not as good as a written roadmap

d




agreed
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 12:53 PM, Dave Stevens wrote:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:19:44 -0700
Paul Allen Newell  wrote:


ToddAndMargo:

Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
might be coming in RHEL/Centos

Paul


yes but not as good as a written roadmap

d



It is beyond me how Red Hat manages to so bugger up Fedora
when they convert it to RHEL.

If I were to speculate, I do believe it is the Open Source
economic model coming to play.  You give away to software
and charge for the services.  If you want something fixed,
you have to pay for it.  Code Weaver and Wine is another
example of this.  (Thank goodness for Wine Staging!)

And, if you can not afford to place Red Hat's or Code Weaver's
developers on your payroll, you are relegates to begging and
swearing or do it yourself if you have the chops.

I could be wrong.




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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Dave Stevens

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:19:44 -0700
Paul Allen Newell  wrote:

> ToddAndMargo:
> 
> Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what 
> might be coming in RHEL/Centos
> 
> Paul

yes but not as good as a written roadmap

d


-- 
In modern fantasy (literary or governmental), killing people is the
usual solution to the so-called war between good and evil. My books are
not conceived in terms of such a war, and offer no simple answers to
simplistic questions.

- Ursula Le Guin
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 10:14 AM, Rick Stevens wrote:

Guys, this is NOT a political forum. Please stop trying to compare
capitalism and communism and socialism here. It's not appropriate
subject matter for this list. Take it to a political forum somewhere
else.


Rick is correct.

If anyone wishes to elaborate on the economic systems, please
write me directly and not on the forum.

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 3:34 AM, Fred Smith wrote:

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 09:57:19AM +, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:

Hi Fred and all,
Well, I understand although disagree.  If one doesn't want upgrades,
there are other systems like Debian stable.  Besides upgrades aren't
mandatory, as ToddandMargo said, if you don't want them simply turn
them off.  Last but not least, why do you need to reinstall?  Upgrading
from one version to another is as smooth as it can be.  I don't see
reinstalling as a pain, in any average computer will take only few
minutes, but well, it's understandable that you may not want to go
through it.  But what reinstalling for?  Why not just upgrading the
system?  Am I missing something?
Kind regards,
Silvia


Updates are necessary if you want to keep it secure. Many distros
are new annually or more often, and only keep issuing patches for
the most recent or two most recent releases.once  you go past that
point you're asking for trouble.

Not wanting to do a full upgrade annually doesn't mean I want an
insecure system.


Basically, not all the insecure.  If you look at the Windows world,
the breaking rates of unsupported XP versus supported W7 shows
that XP is more secure.  So a lot of it depends on what you are doing
with your system.  An older version of Firefox may not have the
vulnerability that a new one does or even the capability of executing
the vulnerability.

The breaking rates for Fedora are very, very close to zero.  Plus
by using Linux, you are doing security by obscurity.  Linux
has very little market share, so the bad guys don't waste
the time.  Plus M$ makes the garbage easy to break into.
Fedora is the opposite.

Again, looking at the Windows world, Windows 10 have "releases".
1803 is the current one.  When M$ upgrades to the next release,
it is a full reinstall of the system.  And if causes HAVOC
on the customers.  I get requested frequently to just turn
the stinking things off.  M$ upgrades have caused far more
damage than any viruses ever did in a lot of cases.

Me personally, on my Windows VM's updates are turned off.
They have to work when I need them and I hardly ever use
them on the internet.  Plus, anyone trying to reverse into
them have to rub the gauntlet of iptables.  And they
are usually off anyway

And Fedora, on the other hand, has make upgrades really simple.
And they are very professional about how they do it.  The opposite
of M$.

I always love to see what is new in Fedora.  I cringe at whenever M$
does a new release (one is supposedly coming up soon).




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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 10:10 AM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 10/29/18 11:25 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/29/18 10:19 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:



On 10/29/2018 09:14 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:

On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users
wrote:

On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
 wrote:


On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:

I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the
neck.by Bruce
Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being
different, for
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation
but was
still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just
"leery". I
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".&
I'd rather
not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good
replacement for
Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II

Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.

Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average
capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long
view which is not permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt
that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A
good place to start looking for that would be Somalia.


U.  Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora.  Red Hat gets
a ton of benefit from Fedora.

The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
date.

Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.

Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux
every six
months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.

They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
of many modern features and bug fixes.


+1


Why are you using Fedora?



ToddAndMargo:

Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
might be coming in RHEL/Centos

Paul


Hi Paul,

Back when I was using RHEL and Clones, I use to say "What goes
on in Fedora, eventually winds up in RHEL."


Technically, at some point a specific Fedora BECOMES the next RHEL
(and eventually CentOS) release. IIRC, Fedora 18 got frozen and
became RHEL/CentOS 7. That's what I mean about Fedora being essentially
Beta versions of RHEL.


Exactly.  And I knew what you meant.  Sorry for any misunderstanding.



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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

On 10/30/18 2:40 AM, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:

Hi ToddandMargo,

I don't want to get into a political argument, just point out to a 
couple of things:
First:  Venezuela is not socialist.  Their government claimed to be, but 
they weren't, they aren't and they won't be.

They are trying to be and the result is what is expected.  That you
do not like the outcome, does not make them any less socialist.
Good Socialists only exist on paper.  They have NEVER been able to
implement it.

Second: Nazis and Soviets weren't the same, but you seem to put them in 
the same box. Except in the mass murdering and pervasive propaganda.  

> But those are general features of totalitarian governments.  Just to
> make it clearer, Nazis were extreme right and Soviets were
> extreme left.

Actually they are two sides of the same coin.

National Socialist (Nazi) is based on the teachings of Karl Marx.

 “National socialism derives from each of two camps the
 pure idea that characterises it: National resolution from
 bourgeois tradition; vital, creative socialism from the
 teaching of Marxism.” -- Hitler, [January, 1934] Schoenbaum,  p.57

The Nazis are FLAMING LEFTISTS, not right wingers.  They only became
Right Wingers when General Patton's rolled into the concentration
camps and the press arrives with him and those horrible pictures
where presented to the world.  And the Left was extremely embarrassed.
Calling them right wingers is the twist of the propagandists tongue.
I can't wait to hear the Soviets being called Right wingers when
Russia FINALLY comes to grips with the Soviet terror and details
start pouring out.

Think it through.  The Right believes in limited government
and the rights of the individual.  The Left believes in the
supremacy of the state over the individual.  The Nazis
lived and acted like socialists.  It was massive government
and no rights to the individual.

Both are the extreme Left and tragic example of what
socialism devolved into.

I know folks that have lived under both the Nazis and the Soviets.
They stated to me that only difference was the language they spoke.

Third:  Communism and Socialism are not the same.

They are variations of the same poison.  Socialism never
worked anywhere it is tried.  It requires the force of the
barrel of a gun to get A to give up the fruits of his labors
to B.  And A will only do it once and become B to protect
himself.  This is why Socialism always results in poverty
and despotism.

The argument that failed Socialists are not real Socialist
or are Right Wingers and that you should keep trying to repeat
what does not work over and over and over has is is still
having tragic consequences on humanity.  Again, Venezuela is
a tragic example of what doesn't work being forced down the
throats of others.  "Oh they were not 'real' socialists" because
to did not work out they way it was laid out on paper.

It is time for us to all learn from history and not relive
it.  200 million souls IS ENOUGH.

The alternative is the Free Market, where you are forced to
take care of your customer to meet your own needs.  And yes,
it is not perfect.  Folks do cheat all the time.  Microsoft
for example.

So here is a thought.  Use the legitimate power of government
to protect one citizen from another and force the free market
down the throats of the cheaters.  M$ should have been broken
up into several companies.  Beats the hell out of poverty and
tyranny.

I hope Fedora makes it through the IBM purchase.  I am a
YUGE fan of Fedora.

Kind regards,
Silvia

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

On 10/29/18 11:27 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> On 10/29/18 10:30 PM, Tim via users wrote:
>> We have a prime example in this country of Telstra (a phone company).
>> They bugger everyone up, customers and systems, with the you'll have to
>> put up with it, or go to one of the small number of highly similar
>> competitors.  So, no, market forces don't keep them in check.  We had a
>> seriously out of date analogue system for decades, poor pricing schemes
>> and features, poor complaint handling, etc.  We have the NBN broadband
>> disaster because Telstra deliberately refused to keep their network
>> updated with modern standards, because they didn't want to*have*  to
>> share it with competitors.  It was a screw everyone approach, because
>> they weren't going to be allowed to be monopoly.  Year in, year out,
>> it's been proved that all their care about is their market worth, not
>> the customers that pay them.
> 
> Time for Anti Trust laws to kick in.  Bust them up into five
> or more companies.

Guys, this is NOT a political forum. Please stop trying to compare
capitalism and communism and socialism here. It's not appropriate
subject matter for this list. Take it to a political forum somewhere
else.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

On 10/29/18 11:25 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> On 10/29/18 10:19 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/29/2018 09:14 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
>>> On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:
 On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users
> wrote:
>> On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
> I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the
> neck.by Bruce
> Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
> mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
> corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being
> different, for
> being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation
> but was
> still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just
> "leery". I
> don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".&
> I'd rather
> not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
> Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good
> replacement for
> Fedora?
>
> Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
>
> EGO II
 Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
 Fedora gets spun off.
>>> Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average
>>> capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long
>>> view which is not permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt
>>> that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A
>>> good place to start looking for that would be Somalia.
>>
>> U.  Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
>> basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora.  Red Hat gets
>> a ton of benefit from Fedora.
>>
>> The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
>> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
>> date.
> Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
> will run for years.
>
> Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux
> every six
> months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
> with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
> reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
> re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
> to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
> for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
>
> They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
> of many modern features and bug fixes.
>
 +1
>>>
>>> Why are you using Fedora?
>>>
>>
>> ToddAndMargo:
>>
>> Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what
>> might be coming in RHEL/Centos
>>
>> Paul
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> Back when I was using RHEL and Clones, I use to say "What goes
> on in Fedora, eventually winds up in RHEL."

Technically, at some point a specific Fedora BECOMES the next RHEL
(and eventually CentOS) release. IIRC, Fedora 18 got frozen and
became RHEL/CentOS 7. That's what I mean about Fedora being essentially
Beta versions of RHEL.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Fred Smith

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 09:57:19AM +, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:
>Hi Fred and all,
>Well, I understand although disagree.  If one doesn't want upgrades,
>there are other systems like Debian stable.  Besides upgrades aren't
>mandatory, as ToddandMargo said, if you don't want them simply turn
>them off.  Last but not least, why do you need to reinstall?  Upgrading
>from one version to another is as smooth as it can be.  I don't see
>reinstalling as a pain, in any average computer will take only few
>minutes, but well, it's understandable that you may not want to go
>through it.  But what reinstalling for?  Why not just upgrading the
>system?  Am I missing something?
>Kind regards,
>Silvia

Updates are necessary if you want to keep it secure. Many distros
are new annually or more often, and only keep issuing patches for
the most recent or two most recent releases.once  you go past that
point you're asking for trouble.

Not wanting to do a full upgrade annually doesn't mean I want an
insecure system.

> 
>On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 07:15, ToddAndMargo via users
><[1]users@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> 
>  On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
>  > Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux
>  every six
>  > months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for
>  years
>  > with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more
>  occasional
>  > reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling
>  and
>  > re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't
>  want
>  > to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can
>  use
>  > for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain
>  again.
>  I am somewhat perplexed at the above.  No one is
>  forcing you to update Fedora.  Just turn off your
>  updates.  I am not seeing what your complaint is.
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  but he loves those who pursue righteousness.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Frau Silvia Sánchez

Hi Fred and all,

Well, I understand although disagree.  If one doesn't want upgrades, there
are other systems like Debian stable.  Besides upgrades aren't mandatory,
as ToddandMargo said, if you don't want them simply turn them off.  Last
but not least, why do you need to reinstall?  Upgrading from one version to
another is as smooth as it can be.  I don't see reinstalling as a pain, in
any average computer will take only few minutes, but well, it's
understandable that you may not want to go through it.  But what
reinstalling for?  Why not just upgrading the system?  Am I missing
something?

Kind regards,
Silvia




On Tue, 30 Oct 2018 at 07:15, ToddAndMargo via users <
users@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
> > Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
> > months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
> > with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
> > reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
> > re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
> > to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
> > for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.
>
> I am somewhat perplexed at the above.  No one is
> forcing you to update Fedora.  Just turn off your
> updates.  I am not seeing what your complaint is.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread Frau Silvia Sánchez

Hi ToddandMargo,

I don't want to get into a political argument, just point out to a couple
of things:
First:  Venezuela is not socialist.  Their government claimed to be, but
they weren't, they aren't and they won't be. If you want to point to a
communist government, there is North Korea  (that nobody knows if they are
or not, because it's impossible to get in)  and obviously the old USSR
(that already died).  There's Cuba but they're slowly slipping from classic
communism.  And China that is communist only in the name.
Second: Nazis and Soviets weren't the same, but you seem to put them in the
same box. Except in the mass murdering and pervasive propaganda.  But those
are general features of totalitarian governments.  Just to make it clearer,
Nazis were extreme right and Soviets were extreme left.
Third:  Communism and Socialism are not the same.


Kind regards,
Silvia


On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 at 17:51, ToddAndMargo via users <
users@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:

> On 10/29/18 4:17 AM, j.halif...@seznam.cz wrote:
> > Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal
> > behaviors
> > doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for
> > their
> > maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions,
> > devastating
> > democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments,
> murdering
> > "inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and
> > everybody
> > who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars
> > initiated for
> > fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of
> > shame-
> > less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists
> > painted with
> > "mendacious colors" of  so called "refugees," corrupting snipers for
> > shooting the
> > demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !
>
> "Capitalism" is an economic vehicle, not an economic system.
> Socialists use it extensively, mainly to fund their horrible
> war machines -- the Soviets and the Nazis for instance.
>
> Socialism only works on paper and requires the barrel of gun
> to force others to produce when they do not get to see the
> fruits of their labor.  And keep in mind that Socialists
> have cost humanity over 200 million souls in the past
> decade alone.
>
> The "free free market" on the other hand, if you do not meet
> the needs of your customers, you fail.  Sure, folks can cheat,
> but they only get away with it for so long.  Under the free market,
> the only way to achieve maximum profit is keep your customers happy.
> I live it and breath it every day of my life.
>
> One of the few proper usages of government is to make sure folks
> don't cheat (monopolies, etc.).  But even without this, monopolies
> do eventually fail anyway -- it just takes longer.  Microsoft,
> who does cheat, will feel the full force of this eventually.
>
> Do not be fooled by flowery, utopian descriptions of Socialism
> in college text books.  Look around you. It has never been
> successful anywhere it has been tried.  And remember the lost
> 200 millions souls.  A good place to start looking would be
> the current situation in Venezuela.
>
>
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/30/18 1:36 AM, j.witvl...@mindef.nl wrote:

Heartbroken?

No improvement ever without change, (although not every change lead to 
improvement.)


Sometimes purchases/buy-outs works out fine. Like the purchase of 
StarOffice by SUN-Microsystems.


I admit, the world of Open Source does has victims, sometimes not caused 
by corporate-management but even by technicians vs community.


No, I did not mention the replacement of  init.d by bloatware…

Hans


Hi Hans,

One of the things I had to learn when I switched from RHEL and Clones
was System D.  I almost tore my hair out.  But, once you learn it,
it is a lot better than System V.  But its takes a while to get there.

-T

--
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I am Windows
I am the Blue Screen of Death
No one hears your screams
~

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RE: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-30 Thread J.Witvliet

Heartbroken?

No improvement ever without change, (although not every change lead to 
improvement.)
Sometimes purchases/buy-outs works out fine. Like the purchase of StarOffice by 
SUN-Microsystems.
I admit, the world of Open Source does has victims, sometimes not caused by 
corporate-management but even by technicians vs community.
No, I did not mention the replacement of  init.d by bloatware…

Hans

From: Eddie O'Connor [mailto:eoconno...@gmail.com]
Sent: maandag 29 oktober 2018 16:12
To: Community support for Fedora users
Subject: Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by Bruce Lee! I 
don't presume to know the first thing about corporations, mergers, and long 
term financials, And while Red Hat was a corporation per se.I've always 
loved Fedora for being different, for being the odd distro that was backed by a 
major corporation but was still able to support itself independently. Now? 
I'm just "leery". I don't know what plans IBM has for their new found 
"toy".& I'd rather not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for 
Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II


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WAY OFF TOPIC ( Was: OT: IBM to buy RedHat)

2018-10-30 Thread jarmo

Everybody know now, that IBM is about buy RedHat.
So, let's see what happens. Just leave this cap vs sos
discussion to political forums, right?

Jarmo
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 10:30 PM, Tim via users wrote:

We have a prime example in this country of Telstra (a phone company).
They bugger everyone up, customers and systems, with the you'll have to
put up with it, or go to one of the small number of highly similar
competitors.  So, no, market forces don't keep them in check.  We had a
seriously out of date analogue system for decades, poor pricing schemes
and features, poor complaint handling, etc.  We have the NBN broadband
disaster because Telstra deliberately refused to keep their network
updated with modern standards, because they didn't want to*have*  to
share it with competitors.  It was a screw everyone approach, because
they weren't going to be allowed to be monopoly.  Year in, year out,
it's been proved that all their care about is their market worth, not
the customers that pay them.


Time for Anti Trust laws to kick in.  Bust them up into five
or more companies.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 10:19 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:



On 10/29/2018 09:14 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:

On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users 
 wrote:



On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by 
Bruce

Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being 
different, for
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation 
but was
still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just 
"leery". I
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& 
I'd rather

not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good 
replacement for

Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II

Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.
Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average 
capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long 
view which is not permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt 
that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good 
place to start looking for that would be Somalia.


U.  Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora.  Red Hat gets
a ton of benefit from Fedora.

The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
date.

Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.

Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every 
six

months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.

They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
of many modern features and bug fixes.


+1


Why are you using Fedora?



ToddAndMargo:

Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what 
might be coming in RHEL/Centos


Paul


Hi Paul,

Back when I was using RHEL and Clones, I use to say "What goes
on in Fedora, eventually winds up in RHEL."

:-)

-T

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:

Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.


I am somewhat perplexed at the above.  No one is
forcing you to update Fedora.  Just turn off your
updates.  I am not seeing what your complaint is.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread j.halifax2

You are right if seen through the glasses of capitalistic mass propaganda
excluding substantial facts. ;)  

The fact that MS has cheated customers for ~30 years happily is a nice

proof that "something is wrong" in the capitalism. ;)

-- Původní e-mail --
Od: ToddAndMargo via users 
Komu: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Datum: 29. 10. 2018 20:01:27
Předmět: Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat
"On 10/29/18 4:17 AM, j.halif...@seznam.cz wrote:
> Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal
> behaviors
> doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for
> their
> maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions,
> devastating
> democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments,
murdering
> "inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and
> everybody
> who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars
> initiated for
> fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of 
> shame-
> less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists
> painted with
> "mendacious colors" of  so called "refugees," corrupting snipers for
> shooting the
> demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !

"Capitalism" is an economic vehicle, not an economic system.
Socialists use it extensively, mainly to fund their horrible
war machines -- the Soviets and the Nazis for instance.

Socialism only works on paper and requires the barrel of gun
to force others to produce when they do not get to see the
fruits of their labor. And keep in mind that Socialists
have cost humanity over 200 million souls in the past
decade alone.

The "free free market" on the other hand, if you do not meet
the needs of your customers, you fail. Sure, folks can cheat,
but they only get away with it for so long. Under the free market,
the only way to achieve maximum profit is keep your customers happy.
I live it and breath it every day of my life.

One of the few proper usages of government is to make sure folks
don't cheat (monopolies, etc.). But even without this, monopolies
do eventually fail anyway -- it just takes longer. Microsoft,
who does cheat, will feel the full force of this eventually.

Do not be fooled by flowery, utopian descriptions of Socialism
in college text books. Look around you. It has never been
successful anywhere it has been tried. And remember the lost
200 millions souls. A good place to start looking would be
the current situation in Venezuela.

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Tim via users

On Mon, 2018-10-29 at 22:20 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> One of Fedora's business values is the free testing users perform 
> for RH.  This value has eroded over time.  More testing is being
> automated and is often incorported into build systems.  These tests
> often originated with end users, but if these approaches are
> successful, the need for end user testing will be greatly reduced.

Not to mention the end-users ever increasing willingness to put up with
bad software.  The more people put up with crap, the easier it is to
get away with churning it out.  Decades of awful Windows software, and
bargain basement hardware, has conditioned people it accepting it.

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Tim via users

Tim:
>> And you can say it about anything.  e.g. The commercial phone
>> companies don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what
>> their customers consider their primary purpose to be).  They're
>> there to make money and it really doesn't care how well the
>> communications aspect of it works.

ToddAndMargo:
> "Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the
> Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and
> services between consenting parties".  Under the Free Market, to meet
> your own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.

It's just what it's called, whether or not someone considers it to be
an insult.  Communism is an insult term, from the Yanks perspective,
who're paranoidly afraid of it.

> Your description of communications customers only caring about money
> falls apart.  If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere.  As a
> small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
> of my customers, I STARVE.  I live it and breath it.  I am only
> rewarded for meeting my customers needs.

On an small scale, you're kept in check.  Large scale, no.  We have to
legislate to stop businesses being huge crooks.  Market forces, alone,
do not keep them in check.

We have a prime example in this country of Telstra (a phone company). 
They bugger everyone up, customers and systems, with the you'll have to
put up with it, or go to one of the small number of highly similar
competitors.  So, no, market forces don't keep them in check.  We had a
seriously out of date analogue system for decades, poor pricing schemes
and features, poor complaint handling, etc.  We have the NBN broadband
disaster because Telstra deliberately refused to keep their network
updated with modern standards, because they didn't want to *have* to
share it with competitors.  It was a screw everyone approach, because
they weren't going to be allowed to be monopoly.  Year in, year out,
it's been proved that all their care about is their market worth, not
the customers that pay them.

> Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had
> every right to sell itself to Sears.  And I have every right to look
> elsewhere for someone else that will meet my needs.

I'm not saying they don't have the "right."  Just that the system is
gross.
 
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Paul Allen Newell




On 10/29/2018 09:14 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:

On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users 
 wrote:



On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by 
Bruce

Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being 
different, for
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation 
but was
still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just 
"leery". I
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& 
I'd rather

not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good 
replacement for

Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II

Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.
Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average 
capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long 
view which is not permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt 
that Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good 
place to start looking for that would be Somalia.


U.  Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL. RHEL is
basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora.  Red Hat gets
a ton of benefit from Fedora.

The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
date.

Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.

Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every 
six

months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.

They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
of many modern features and bug fixes.


+1


Why are you using Fedora?



ToddAndMargo:

Using/watching what Fedora is doing is a good way to prepare for what 
might be coming in RHEL/Centos


Paul
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:



The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
date.



Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.


Glad you asked.  I make that statement from my experience with RHEL
and Clones.

What RHEL does is to make some minor tweaks and freeze a defunct
version of Fedora.  It is by design, meaning purposefully, an
anti-Kaisen operating system for the reasons you described.
If you only run what is in the box, it will  run and run
as your described.

Kaisen comes from Dr. Demming's work.  It means "constant improvement".
Fedora is a Kaisen operating system.  It just gets better and better.

For RHEL to be useful, you have to have run out-of-date software
that is compatible with RHEL's out-of-date nature.  This means no 
Kaisen.  You'd better like what you got and not want anything

improved or your venture will come down around your ears.

Now I used RHEL and friends for around ten years or so (just guessing).
It nearly drove me insane.  The straw that broke the camels was
when a bug in Osmo and RHEL deleted my business contacts.  Mind
you, Osmo had fixed this, but they could not help me as RHEL was
so out of date.  My mistake was thinking I could actually use RHEL
with current software.

Now as far as updates are concerned, I have seen Microsoft's updates
almost ruin businesses, especially their insane Windows 10 updates.
So I fully know what you speak of.  I have not seen this is Fedora.
The worst I have seen is Red Shift get broken (they just fixed it).
I model new Fedora updates on a qemu-kvm virtual machine and
put it through its paces.  Then up update my machines.  When I am happy
with that, I move on to my the two Fedora servers at customer sites
that I maintain.

With Fedora, I have never had much of any issues with updates.
A few of RHEL's have brought tears to my eyes.  278 to 28 on
my main office computer took only 15 minutes (NVMe  drives
are AWESOME!).  A mechanical drive unit took about an hour.

As far as using RHEL, you use it like an appliance.  Once you
get your stuff working on it, that is it.  No changes.  I might
add that you can do this with ANY operating system.  You just
turn off the updates.  You don't need RHEL for that.  And I might
point out that an operating is "stable" if it runs the software you
want.  Even Windows 10 is stable if all you run on it is Freecell.

Now as far as fixing things.  RHEL indeed does fix things.  Sometimes.
Well, my experience is SIX YEARS TO NEVER.  And they do include "some"
things to their kludge kernels, but never the things you actually need.

With Fedora, bugs typically get fix in one to two months -- this is
absolutely awesome.  The only exception is that they are dragging the
collective a***es on fixing usb with my wife's tablet:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1527735

Red Shift too a while too, but they worked on it constantly.

And speaking of "never" RHEL can only run an outdated, bug riddled
version of qemu-kvm.  Drove me insane.  For instance, Usb2 is five
times slower than native:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1224498

And Red Hat CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT IT as RHEL is so terribly out of date.
That would be

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1518387

AND! The irony of KVM being a Red Hat project and even their bugs fixes
will not run on RHEL has not escaped me.

By the way, the updates version of qemu-kvm runs beautifully on
Fedora.  It is a charm to run.

So to summarize, my system is a Kaisen system.  I am always working
on things and trying new things out to meet my needs and my
customer's needs.  When I switched from RHEL to Fedora, I had a case
of the giggles for about three months.  "Look at all the stuff that
has finally started working!"  RHEL almost drove me insane.

And yes, I know, I was not using it as an appliance.  My bad.

I am a Fedora fan and an RHEL anti-fan.  For all the years
I suffered with RHEL and friends, I have nothing my derision.

-T



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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 8:31 PM, Richard England wrote:

On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users 
 wrote:



On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by 
Bruce

Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being 
different, for
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation 
but was

still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& I'd 
rather

not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good 
replacement for

Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II

Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.
Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average 
capitalist enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long view 
which is not permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt that 
Fedora or OSS is an example of any kind of capitalism. A good place 
to start looking for that would be Somalia.


U.  Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL.  RHEL is
basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora.  Red Hat gets
a ton of benefit from Fedora.

The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
date.

Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.

Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.

They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
of many modern features and bug fixes.


+1


Why are you using Fedora?

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Richard England


On 10/29/18 6:30 PM, Fred Smith wrote:

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users 
 wrote:


On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:

I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by Bruce
Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation but was
still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& I'd rather
not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II

Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.

Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist 
enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not 
permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example 
of any kind of capitalism. A good place to start looking for that would be 
Somalia.


U.  Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL.  RHEL is
basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora.  Red Hat gets
a ton of benefit from Fedora.

The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
date.

Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.

Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.

They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
of many modern features and bug fixes.


+1
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Fred Smith

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 04:26:46PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
> >On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
> >>>I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by Bruce
> >>>Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
> >>>mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
> >>>corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
> >>>being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation but was
> >>>still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I
> >>>don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& I'd rather
> >>>not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
> >>>Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
> >>>Fedora?
> >>>
> >>>Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
> >>>
> >>>EGO II
> >>
> >>Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
> >>Fedora gets spun off.
> >
> >Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist 
> >enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not 
> >permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an 
> >example of any kind of capitalism. A good place to start looking for that 
> >would be Somalia.
> 
> 
> U.  Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL.  RHEL is
> basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora.  Red Hat gets
> a ton of benefit from Fedora.
> 
> The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much
> unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of
> date.

Don't know why you think RHEL is  bug riddled. it's stable and
will run for years.

Some of us (many businesses) don't want a new version of Linux every six
months, they want systems that will be stable and will run for years
with nothing more than the occasional yum update and more occasional
reboot. People with many computers can't spend time reinstalling and
re-configuring all of them once or twice every year. And I don't want
to do that with my  home systems either. I want something I can use
for 2 or 3 years, at least, before enduring the reinstall pain again.

They may use what appears to be an old kernel, but RH does backports
of many modern features and bug fixes.

> IBM may just dump RHEL and there goes Fedora.  Maybe IBM will come
> up with its own version of an enterprise distribution and keep
> using Fedora for its testing ground as well.
> 
> Here is hoping!
-- 
 Fred Smith -- fre...@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us -
  The eyes of the Lord are everywhere, 
keeping watch on the wicked and the good.
- Proverbs 15:3 (niv) -
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread George N. White III

On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 at 20:40, Patrick O'Callaghan 
wrote:

> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
> list:
>
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html
> O

Fedora users have to be concerned with changes at RH that may affect the
future
of Fedora.   The purchase of RH by IBM should remind us that linux users
depend
heavily on open source licenses controlled by developers, including those
working
for RH and IBM, and on patent licenses granted by corporate interests,
including
IBM and Microsoft.   One of Fedora's business values is the free testing
users perform
for RH.   This value has eroded over time.   More testing is being
automated and is
often incorported into build systems.  These tests often originated with
end users,
but if these approaches are successful, the need for end user testing will
be
greatly reduced.

The other business value of Fedora is the pool of users, particularly
younger
users, who will be comfortable with future RHEL releases and make it easier
and cheaper for RHEL customers to find workers.

A major source of bugs that are found in end-user testing is conflicts
between
different applications (for example, app A requires libxx built with option
P enabled
and option Q disabled, while app B requires libxx with option P disabled
and option
Q enabled) are a major source of bugs in linux.   This can be seen in the
uses of
static linking for applications such as TeX Live that are available in
binary versions
that run on multiple linux distros.  Virtualization makes it feasible to
provide
applications with custom environments that provide a set of libraries tuned
for the
particular requirements of the application.

Another change that affects the viability of Fedora is the pace of changes
needed
to address security issues, which has increased interest in rolling
distributions
over long-term releases.

-- 
George N. White III
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Eugene Poole


Could this be why IBM is looking at RHEL:

Who was around 1980 and followed what happened to the IBM PC when M$ was 
supposed to be writing PCDOS and then OS/2 all with IBM's money.


Now that M$ is starting to look at Linux, IBM is afraid that M$ will own 
every server and desktop that isn't running Solaris or AIX. Also, IBM 
has invested at least $2 billion in RHEL.


--
Eugene Poole
Woodstock, Georgia
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 2:33 PM, Tom H wrote:

As incompetent as IBM's management has been for the last 15 years or
so (and we can safely add paying a 63% premium for RH as its latest
epic fail; desperation...), I find it difficult to believe that IBM'll
kill the successful RH business model.


They sure ruined Lotus.  Sears ruined Lands' End too.  One
can not imagine what was going through the suits minds.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Linux3D


yep i hope so, fingerscrossed ;)

On 10/29/18 11:26 PM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

Maybe IBM will come
up with its own version of an enterprise distribution and keep
using Fedora for its testing ground as well.

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 12:32 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

Fedora is the "bleeding edge"


Not all that "Bleeding Edge"  Fedora 28 does not even support the latest 
Libre Office in is repos.  (LO's RPM do work though.)

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 11:41 AM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users 
 wrote:


On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:

I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by Bruce
Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation but was
still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& I'd rather
not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II


Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.


Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist 
enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not 
permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example 
of any kind of capitalism. A good place to start looking for that would be 
Somalia.



U.  Red Hat uses Fedora as a testing ground for RHEL.  RHEL is
basically a defunct, bug frozen version of Fedora.  Red Hat gets
a ton of benefit from Fedora.

The big question is how will IBM look at it.  RHEL is pretty much 
unusable for newer software as RHEL is so bug riddled and out of date.

IBM may just dump RHEL and there goes Fedora.  Maybe IBM will come
up with its own version of an enterprise distribution and keep
using Fedora for its testing ground as well.

Here is hoping!
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Tom H

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 7:59 PM Samuel Sieb  wrote:
>
> Spun off by who?

"By whom" please :)
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Ranjan Maitra

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 19:32:37 + Rick Stevens  wrote:

> On 10/29/18 11:52 AM, Walter H. wrote:
> > On 28.10.2018 23:49, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> >> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
> >> list:
> >>
> >> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html
> >>
> >>
> >> poc
> >>
> > I guess this won't affect anything on the development of Fedora, RHEL,
> > CentOS, Scientific Linux
> > this might be a chance to have RHEL on IBM Main Frames ...
> 
> Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
> 
> Fedora is the "bleeding edge" development arm of RHEL. Eventually, once
> enough changes have been made and stabilized in Fedora, it becomes the
> next release of RHEL. We Fedora users are just the lab rats and a giant,
> very vocal and fairly sophisticated bunch of beta testers. CentOS is
> built off the RHEL source tree. It's rebranded, but it is essentially
> RHEL (but free and without direct RedHat support to users).
> 
> Now, will any of this change? Likely, but due to the various copyright
> and patent prohibitions (GPL, Apache license, etc.), IBM couldn't lock
> down the guts of Linux. They might not put any of their "enhancements"
> in the wild, but
> 
> On the flip side, if IBM follows the example of, oh, say Tata in its
> acquisition of Jaguar Cars, this might not be a horrible thing. Tata,
> fortunately, took the view that "We at Tata know how to build trucks and
> forklifts. Jaguar, you know how to design and build cars, so you do that
> and share the profits with us." So far, that's worked out fairly
> successfully for Jaguar and Tata. If IBM takes a hands-off approach
> similar to what Tata did, this might not be that horrible.
> 
> Only time will tell. Am I scared? A bit, but I can wait. There are
> alternatives out there. I'd hate to switch...I've been a RedHat/Fedora
> user for a LONG time (since Red Hat 3, I think).

Btw,I think that it is still true that Tatas' largest shareholders (in both 
Tata Steel and Tata Motors) and lots else are public sector banks which are 
owned by the government of India which is constitutionally a Socialist 
Sovereign Secular Democratic Republic. More importantly, the Tatas are known 
for their social bent and for taking care of their employees, and have been 
since Jamsetji  founded the steel plant in Jamshedpur. The first non-Tata chair 
of the holding company Tata Sons was shown the door maybe two years ago 
because, if i remember right, he did not quite care much for the niceties of 
acquiring Corus, etc, and thought it was a waste of money.

Of course, it is not known what direction IBM will take Redhat and its 
contributions to OSS but with Wall Street breathing down the neck for a quicker 
bang for the buck, who knows. I don't know that things can be better than they 
have been, as far as Fedora goes, so hopefully they will not be worse.

Ranjan
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread RLM


does IBM want RedHat because it is competition for Unix?



On 30/10/18 5:52 am, Walter H. wrote:

On 28.10.2018 23:49, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
list:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html 



poc

I guess this won't affect anything on the development of Fedora, RHEL, 
CentOS, Scientific Linux

this might be a chance to have RHEL on IBM Main Frames ...




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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Tom H

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 3:55 AM ToddAndMargo via users
 wrote:
>
> RHEL is defunct, out-of-date garbage.

Garbage? I wonder how many S 500 use RHEL and how many use Fedora :)

And if you look at all companies, how many use CentOS and how may use Fedora?
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Ed Greshko

On 10/30/18 4:48 AM, Rick Stevens wrote:
> I'd rather think the "suits" know
> about everything that's RedHat-ish.

I was involved when British Telecom was doing their due diligence of a US based 
company
which had offices worldwide.  They sent a team of about 20 people to each 
office to go
over everything.  They were with us for a month in Taiwan.  I can't see IBM 
being any less
through.

Isn't all this idle speculation with no foundation "exciting"?

-- 
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tell them,
then tell them what you told them."
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Tom H

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 2:27 AM Dave Stevens  wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2018 18:20:05 -0600 Joe Zeff  wrote:
>> On 10/28/2018 04:49 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>>>
>>> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to
>>> this list:
>>>
>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html
>>
>> More discussion here:
>> https://linux.slashdot.org/story/18/10/28/1859245/ibm-to-buy-red-hat-the-top-linux-distributor-for-34-billion#comments
>
> well there's still Debian

And Ubuntu LTS. And Gentoo. And Funtoo. But these are alternatives to
RHEL not Fedora.

But isn't this jumping the gun?

As incompetent as IBM's management has been for the last 15 years or
so (and we can safely add paying a 63% premium for RH as its latest
epic fail; desperation...), I find it difficult to believe that IBM'll
kill the successful RH business model.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Joshua D Doll

On October 29, 2018 8:48:29 PM UTC, Rick Stevens  wrote:
>On 10/29/18 12:56 PM, Richard England wrote:
>> On 10/29/18 10:47 AM, Joshua D Doll wrote:
>>> On October 28, 2018 10:49:46 PM UTC, Patrick O'Callaghan
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest
>to this
>>> list:
>>>
>>>
>https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html
>>>
>>>
>>> This purchase is about CoreOS and having a strong k8s play. I doubt
>>> fedora even was on the radar of the suits.
>>>
>> ...and it's that lack of radar blip that concerns me about Fedora. 
>The
>> suits don't know that they will own fedora, what it is, or how it
>> contributes to the bottom line. It will look like a cost center with
>no
>> return to the bean counters and that _could_ make it a target.
>> 
>> But we'll have to wait and see what influence the IBM corporate
>> management chooses to exert on the RH "division"
>
>With this amount of money involved, I'd rather think the "suits" know
>about everything that's RedHat-ish. If not, they've not done their
>due dilligence.
>--
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Sure they are aware, but fedora did not factor into the decision, other than 
being something on a list somewhere. Fedora existing or not did not factor into 
this. It's all about positioning themselves to compete in the k8s space. 


--Josh

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Rick Stevens

On 10/29/18 12:56 PM, Richard England wrote:
> On 10/29/18 10:47 AM, Joshua D Doll wrote:
>> On October 28, 2018 10:49:46 PM UTC, Patrick O'Callaghan
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
>> list:
>>
>> 
>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html
>>
>>
>> This purchase is about CoreOS and having a strong k8s play. I doubt
>> fedora even was on the radar of the suits.
>>
> ...and it's that lack of radar blip that concerns me about Fedora.  The
> suits don't know that they will own fedora, what it is, or how it
> contributes to the bottom line. It will look like a cost center with no
> return to the bean counters and that _could_ make it a target.
> 
> But we'll have to wait and see what influence the IBM corporate
> management chooses to exert on the RH "division"

With this amount of money involved, I'd rather think the "suits" know
about everything that's RedHat-ish. If not, they've not done their
due dilligence.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Wolfgang Pfeiffer

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 12:53:16PM -0700, stan wrote:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 19:32:37 +
Rick Stevens wrote:

Fedora is the "bleeding edge" development arm of RHEL. Eventually,
once enough changes have been made and stabilized in Fedora, it
becomes the next release of RHEL. We Fedora users are just the lab
rats and a giant, very vocal and fairly sophisticated bunch of beta
testers. CentOS is built off the RHEL source tree. It's rebranded,
but it is essentially RHEL (but free and without direct RedHat
support to users).

And this is the reason I think Fedora will continue relatively
unscathed. Replacing the services that the users of Fedora provide to
Red Hat's product with paid employees would be more costly than the
support Red Hat gives Fedora, and less effective in finding issues.

Additionally:

"Upon closing of the acquisition, Red Hat will join IBM’s Hybrid Cloud
team as a distinct unit, preserving the independence and neutrality of
Red Hat’s open source development heritage and commitment, current
product portfolio and go-to-market strategy, and unique development
culture."

See: "preserving" - Not too many details, but sounds encouraging ...

The merger is expected to be completed only second half 2019:

"The acquisition has been approved by the boards of directors of both
IBM and Red Hat. It is subject to Red Hat shareholder approval. It
also is subject to regulatory approvals and other customary closing
conditions. It is expected to close in the latter half of 2019."

All quotes from above:
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-acquire-red-hat-completely-changing-cloud-landscape-and-becoming-world%E2%80%99s-1-hybrid-cloud-provider

I'm getting curious as to the changes the whole thing will bring .. :)

Else: Game over - Linux has won, I think. At least for the next few
months ... ;)

Wolfgang
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Ted Roche

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 4:23 PM Rick Stevens  wrote:

>
> Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?
>
>
Here are the requirements for running RedHat on s/390 mainframes, so, yes
to both:

https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_network_satellite/5.4/html/installation_guide/sect-installation_guide-hardware_requirements-s390_hardware_requirements
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Richard England


On 10/29/18 10:47 AM, Joshua D Doll wrote:
On October 28, 2018 10:49:46 PM UTC, Patrick O'Callaghan 
 wrote:


I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
list:


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html

poc



This purchase is about CoreOS and having a strong k8s play. I doubt 
fedora even was on the radar of the suits.


--Josh
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

___


...and it's that lack of radar blip that concerns me about Fedora.  The 
suits don't know that they will own fedora, what it is, or how it 
contributes to the bottom line. It will look like a cost center with no 
return to the bean counters and that _could_ make it a target.


But we'll have to wait and see what influence the IBM corporate 
management chooses to exert on the RH "division"


~~R

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread stan

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 19:32:37 +
Rick Stevens  wrote:

> Fedora is the "bleeding edge" development arm of RHEL. Eventually,
> once enough changes have been made and stabilized in Fedora, it
> becomes the next release of RHEL. We Fedora users are just the lab
> rats and a giant, very vocal and fairly sophisticated bunch of beta
> testers. CentOS is built off the RHEL source tree. It's rebranded,
> but it is essentially RHEL (but free and without direct RedHat
> support to users).

And this is the reason I think Fedora will continue relatively
unscathed. Replacing the services that the users of Fedora provide to
Red Hat's product with paid employees would be more costly than the
support Red Hat gives Fedora, and less effective in finding issues.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Rick Stevens

On 10/29/18 11:52 AM, Walter H. wrote:
> On 28.10.2018 23:49, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>> I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
>> list:
>>
>> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html
>>
>>
>> poc
>>
> I guess this won't affect anything on the development of Fedora, RHEL,
> CentOS, Scientific Linux
> this might be a chance to have RHEL on IBM Main Frames ...

Do big IBM (or any) mainframes still exist?

Fedora is the "bleeding edge" development arm of RHEL. Eventually, once
enough changes have been made and stabilized in Fedora, it becomes the
next release of RHEL. We Fedora users are just the lab rats and a giant,
very vocal and fairly sophisticated bunch of beta testers. CentOS is
built off the RHEL source tree. It's rebranded, but it is essentially
RHEL (but free and without direct RedHat support to users).

Now, will any of this change? Likely, but due to the various copyright
and patent prohibitions (GPL, Apache license, etc.), IBM couldn't lock
down the guts of Linux. They might not put any of their "enhancements"
in the wild, but

On the flip side, if IBM follows the example of, oh, say Tata in its
acquisition of Jaguar Cars, this might not be a horrible thing. Tata,
fortunately, took the view that "We at Tata know how to build trucks and
forklifts. Jaguar, you know how to design and build cars, so you do that
and share the profits with us." So far, that's worked out fairly
successfully for Jaguar and Tata. If IBM takes a hands-off approach
similar to what Tata did, this might not be that horrible.

Only time will tell. Am I scared? A bit, but I can wait. There are
alternatives out there. I'd hate to switch...I've been a RedHat/Fedora
user for a LONG time (since Red Hat 3, I think).
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Linux3D


I just hope that Fedora does not become one of those garage distributions.

On 10/29/18 6:41 PM, Ranjan Maitra wrote:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users 
 wrote:


On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:

I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by Bruce
Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations,
mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a
corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being different, for
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation but was
still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& I'd rather
not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II

Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.

Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist 
enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not 
permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example 
of any kind of capitalism. A good place to start looking for that would be 
Somalia.


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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Walter H.


On 28.10.2018 23:49, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
list:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html

poc

I guess this won't affect anything on the development of Fedora, RHEL, 
CentOS, Scientific Linux

this might be a chance to have RHEL on IBM Main Frames ...




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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Patrick O'Callaghan

On Mon, 2018-10-29 at 10:00 -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> On 10/29/18 4:17 AM, j.halif...@seznam.cz wrote:
> > Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal 
> > behaviors
> > doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for 
> > their
> > maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions, 
> > devastating
> > democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments, murdering
> > "inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and 
> > everybody
> > who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars 
> > initiated for
> > fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of 
> > shame-
> > less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists 
> > painted with
> > "mendacious colors" of  so called "refugees," corrupting snipers for 
> > shooting the
> > demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !
> 
> "Capitalism" is an economic vehicle, not an economic system.
> Socialists use it extensively, mainly to fund their horrible
> war machines -- the Soviets and the Nazis for instance.
> 
> Socialism only works on paper and requires the barrel of gun
> to force others to produce when they do not get to see the
> fruits of their labor.  And keep in mind that Socialists
> have cost humanity over 200 million souls in the past
> decade alone.
> 
> The "free free market" on the other hand, if you do not meet
> the needs of your customers, you fail.  Sure, folks can cheat,
> but they only get away with it for so long.  Under the free market,
> the only way to achieve maximum profit is keep your customers happy.
> I live it and breath it every day of my life.
> 
> One of the few proper usages of government is to make sure folks
> don't cheat (monopolies, etc.).  But even without this, monopolies
> do eventually fail anyway -- it just takes longer.  Microsoft,
> who does cheat, will feel the full force of this eventually.
> 
> Do not be fooled by flowery, utopian descriptions of Socialism
> in college text books.  Look around you. It has never been
> successful anywhere it has been tried.  And remember the lost
> 200 millions souls.  A good place to start looking would be
> the current situation in Venezuela.

Now we're really getting OT. I lived in Venezuela for over 30 years and
think I know more about the situation there than pretty much anyone
else on this list. I do NOT want to discuss it here.

I suggest this thread stay on topic and be limited to specific comments
on the IBM acquisition and what it may mean.

poc
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Ranjan Maitra

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700 ToddAndMargo via users 
 wrote:

> On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
> > I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by Bruce 
> > Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations, 
> > mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a 
> > corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being different, for 
> > being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation but was 
> > still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I 
> > don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& I'd rather 
> > not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
> > Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for 
> > Fedora?
> > 
> > Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.
> > 
> > EGO II
> 
> Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
> Fedora gets spun off.

Unlike the IBM of today, Redhat was not really your average capitalist 
enterprise so they supported Fedora. They had a long view which is not 
permitted by markets.In any case, I doubt that Fedora or OSS is an example 
of any kind of capitalism. A good place to start looking for that would be 
Somalia.


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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Samuel Sieb


On 10/29/18 10:02 AM, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.


Spun off by who?  Do you have any idea how much support RedHat provides 
to Fedora?

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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Joshua D Doll

On October 29, 2018 5:16:33 PM UTC, Dave Stevens  wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700
>ToddAndMargo via users  wrote:
>
>> I hope
>> Fedora gets spun off.
>
>
>forked?
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If IBM decides to stop supporting Fedora then there'd  have to be a fork, 
unless they assign trademarks. What's the contribution mix look like from 
redhat vs non-redhat? What's the monetary support look like? That'll determine 
the viability of a fork. 


--Josh
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Joshua D Doll

On October 28, 2018 10:49:46 PM UTC, Patrick O'Callaghan 
 wrote:
>I know this is strictly OT, but I suggest it's of some interest to this
>list:
>
>https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/28/ibm-to-acquire-red-hat-in-deal-valued-at-34-billion.html
>
>poc
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This purchase is about CoreOS and having a strong k8s play. I doubt fedora even 
was on the radar of the suits.

--Josh
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Dave Stevens

On Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:02:32 -0700
ToddAndMargo via users  wrote:

> I hope
> Fedora gets spun off.

forked?
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 8:12 AM, Eddie O'Connor wrote:
I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by Bruce 
Lee! I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations, 
mergers, and long term financials, And while Red Hat was a 
corporation per se.I've always loved Fedora for being different, for 
being the odd distro that was backed by a major corporation but was 
still able to support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I 
don't know what plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& I'd rather 
not be surprised as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for 
Fedora?


Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II


Wonderfully stated.  The announcement took my breath away.  I hope
Fedora gets spun off.
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat


On 10/29/18 4:17 AM, j.halif...@seznam.cz wrote:
Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal 
behaviors
doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for 
their
maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions, 
devastating

democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments, murdering
"inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and 
everybody
who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars 
initiated for
fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of 
shame-
less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists 
painted with
"mendacious colors" of  so called "refugees," corrupting snipers for 
shooting the

demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong !


"Capitalism" is an economic vehicle, not an economic system.
Socialists use it extensively, mainly to fund their horrible
war machines -- the Soviets and the Nazis for instance.

Socialism only works on paper and requires the barrel of gun
to force others to produce when they do not get to see the
fruits of their labor.  And keep in mind that Socialists
have cost humanity over 200 million souls in the past
decade alone.

The "free free market" on the other hand, if you do not meet
the needs of your customers, you fail.  Sure, folks can cheat,
but they only get away with it for so long.  Under the free market,
the only way to achieve maximum profit is keep your customers happy.
I live it and breath it every day of my life.

One of the few proper usages of government is to make sure folks
don't cheat (monopolies, etc.).  But even without this, monopolies
do eventually fail anyway -- it just takes longer.  Microsoft,
who does cheat, will feel the full force of this eventually.

Do not be fooled by flowery, utopian descriptions of Socialism
in college text books.  Look around you. It has never been
successful anywhere it has been tried.  And remember the lost
200 millions souls.  A good place to start looking would be
the current situation in Venezuela.


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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Eddie O'Connor

I feel as though I've been kicked in the back of the neck.by Bruce Lee!
I don't presume to know the first thing about corporations, mergers, and
long term financials, And while Red Hat was a corporation per
se.I've always loved Fedora for being different, for being the odd
distro that was backed by a major corporation but was still able to
support itself independently. Now? I'm just "leery". I don't know what
plans IBM has for their new found "toy".& I'd rather not be surprised
as others have said. So the question is:
Are there any .rpm-based distros that would make a good replacement for
Fedora?

Heartbroken in the world of Open Source.

EGO II

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018, 11:05 AM Wolfgang Pfeiffer  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 11:56:45PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
> >On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:
> >>On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >>>The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
> >>>always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
> >>>because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
> >>>Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
> >>>stock to make money, this is their big pay day.
> >>
> >>Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism.  Things only
> >>exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
> >>product is for.
> >>
> >>And you can say it about anything.  e.g. The commercial phone companies
> >>don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
> >>consider their primary purpose to be).  They're there to make money and
> >>it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.
> >
> >"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the
> >Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and
> >services between consenting parties".  Under the Free Market, to meet
> >your
> >own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
> >
> >Your description of communications customers only caring about money
> >falls apart.  If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere.  As a
> >small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
> >of my customers, I STARVE.  I live it and breath it.  I am only
> >rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
> >
> >Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every
> >right to sell itself to Sears.  And I have every right to look elsewhere
> >for someone else that will meet my needs.
> >
> >I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
> >the slack.
>
> +1
>
> I couldn't have put it better ..
>
> Plus: AFAIK IBM is still heavily interested in Linux. [1]
>
> IBM seems to know how to run a business. And they seem to make lots of
> money with Linux. All this makes me hopeful that RedHat/Fedora becomes
> more focused on users and customers. Simply because their new boss
> says so ... :)
>
> And the whole merger seems to make sense: Fedora with their new cloud
> targeted Silverblue distro might connect well with IBM's Hybrid Cloud.
>
> Before reading about the acquisition I was rather sure to overwrite my
> installed Fedora with another Linux, before mid-2019, when Fedora's
> image based upgrades will arrive as the default Fedora Workstation
> OS. At least parts of this image based system will be read-write
> protected as it is planned - IIUC - for the Silverblue image based
> OS. I read the rpm-based Fedora system might still be available. But I
> don't like to be surprised with immutable system parts on Linux, so
> just to be on the safe side I planned a change in the months coming
> ...
>
> With that acquisition tho' I'll wait a little and see. And I might
> even wait a little longer before migrating somewhere else ...
>
> Wolfgang
>
> [1] https://lwn.net/Articles/567099/
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Wolfgang Pfeiffer


On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 11:56:45PM -0700, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:

On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:

The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
stock to make money, this is their big pay day.


Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism.  Things only
exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
product is for.

And you can say it about anything.  e.g. The commercial phone companies
don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
consider their primary purpose to be).  They're there to make money and
it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.


"Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the 
Free Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and 
services between consenting parties".  Under the Free Market, to meet 
your

own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.

Your description of communications customers only caring about money
falls apart.  If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere.  As a
small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
of my customers, I STARVE.  I live it and breath it.  I am only
rewarded for meeting my customers needs.

Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every
right to sell itself to Sears.  And I have every right to look elsewhere
for someone else that will meet my needs.

I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
the slack.


+1

I couldn't have put it better ..

Plus: AFAIK IBM is still heavily interested in Linux. [1]

IBM seems to know how to run a business. And they seem to make lots of
money with Linux. All this makes me hopeful that RedHat/Fedora becomes
more focused on users and customers. Simply because their new boss
says so ... :)

And the whole merger seems to make sense: Fedora with their new cloud
targeted Silverblue distro might connect well with IBM's Hybrid Cloud.

Before reading about the acquisition I was rather sure to overwrite my
installed Fedora with another Linux, before mid-2019, when Fedora's
image based upgrades will arrive as the default Fedora Workstation
OS. At least parts of this image based system will be read-write
protected as it is planned - IIUC - for the Silverblue image based
OS. I read the rpm-based Fedora system might still be available. But I
don't like to be surprised with immutable system parts on Linux, so
just to be on the safe side I planned a change in the months coming
...

With that acquisition tho' I'll wait a little and see. And I might
even wait a little longer before migrating somewhere else ...

Wolfgang

[1] https://lwn.net/Articles/567099/
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat Comment on IBM Side

2018-10-29 Thread Michael D. Setzer II

Can put a personnel opinion on IBM side of this. 
My College became a part of the IBM academic initiative program 5+ years 
ago. They provided the service we used free of charge.
My College has a 12 year old mini system that had 256M of Ram and 24G of 
disk with a single CPU and was two major versions out of date, since the 
hardware didn't support either version 6 or 7 of the OS.
The program had a system in Arizonia that we could access via the internet, 
and it had 48 CPUs, 2TB of Ram at the beginning and think it was like 
2048TB of disk. Also, had all the lastest software available on the system. 
There were already 63 other colleges and universities in the program. Got 
connected via a friend in a Star Trek fan club (Chase Masterson), and it was 
a simple phone call to get the setup. They were very helpful, and always 
worked to make the system as best they could.

Know the main goal of IBM is to make money, and be a big player in the field, 
but they seem to see the benefit of supporting the community. I can only 
hope that the Fedora will continue with the same or even more support. 

Know they had a Linux option as well, that run on the mini, but being a 
community college, didn't have the vast range of courses or large number of 
students. 

Unfortunately, I retired last year, and neither the college or the other 3 
instructors took up the torch. Don't know what they did with the Linux 
program either. Had run Redhat 9 thru Fedora 24 before I retired. Was 
planning on doing the upgrade to Fedora 25 last summer, but was told since 
I wasn't teaching summer classes, I wasn't suppose to be on campus after 
34+ years at the college. (Some kind of security issue that effected 
everyone). Was scheduled to teach 7 classes the next semester, but without 
access couldn't prepare the labs or servers to do the job right.

Hopefully, the IBM deal will make Linux a bigger issue. Colleges MIS is about 
90% Windows only, and 10% with some Mac. All the linux was on my own.



++
 Michael D. Setzer II - Computer Science Instructor (Retired) 
 mailto:mi...@guam.net
 mailto:msetze...@gmail.com
 Guam - Where America's Day Begins
 G4L Disk Imaging Project maintainer 
 http://sourceforge.net/projects/g4l/
++

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu (Original)
Number of Seti Units Returned:  19,471
Processing time:  32 years, 290 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes
(Total Hours: 287,489)

BOINC@HOME CREDITS

ROSETTA  66017044.517676 | ABC  16613838.513356
SETI109639717.505894 | EINSTEIN141605036.499240
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread j.halifax2

Capitalism is not a good system because of a sum of locally optimal
behaviors
doesn't need to result in an optimum. Behavior of companies oriented for 
their

maximal profit causes negative devastating nature, social tensions,
devastating 

democracy, even criminal overthrowing legally elected governments, murdering

"inconvenient" politicians, mass corruption of politics, journalists and
everybody 

who agrees to sell their influences to public opinion, even the wars 
initiated for 

fabricated reasons like "spreading the good and democracy" by means of shame
-

less lies in UN or mass murders and genocide done by the terrorists painted
with

"mendacious colors" of  so called "refugees," corrupting snipers for
shooting the 

demonstrating people of the both sides etc. Totally wrong ! 




 -- Původní e-mail --
Od: Erik P. Olsen 
Komu: users@lists.fedoraproject.org
Datum: 29. 10. 2018 11:45:23
Předmět: Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat
"On 2018-10-28 at 23:56:45 ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

> On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:
> > On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >> The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was 
> >> always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
> >> because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
> >> Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the 
> >> stock to make money, this is their big pay day.
> >
> > Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism. Things only 
> > exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
> > product is for.
> >
> > And you can say it about anything. e.g. The commercial phone companies
> > don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
> > consider their primary purpose to be). They're there to make money and
> > it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.
>
> "Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the Free 
> Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and services
> between consenting parties". Under the Free Market, to meet your
> own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
>
> Your description of communications customers only caring about money
> falls apart. If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere. As a
> small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
> of my customers, I STARVE. I live it and breath it. I am only
> rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
>
> Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every 
> right to sell itself to Sears. And I have every right to look elsewhere 
> for someone else that will meet my needs.
>
> I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
> the slack.

+1

--
Erik


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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat

2018-10-29 Thread Erik P. Olsen

On 2018-10-28 at 23:56:45 ToddAndMargo via users wrote:

> On 10/28/18 10:18 PM, Tim via users wrote:
> > On Sun, 2018-10-28 at 22:01 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:  
> >> The reality is, Red Hat is a publicly traded company and there was
> >> always a very good chance a big fish was going to come eat it,
> >> because it was doing well. Anyway, the ultimate decision now is up to
> >> Red Hat shareholders. Why would they say no though? They bought the
> >> stock to make money, this is their big pay day.  
> > 
> > Ultimately, that's the horrible thing about capitalism.  Things only
> > exist for monetary reasons, they don't really exist to do what the
> > product is for.
> > 
> > And you can say it about anything.  e.g. The commercial phone companies
> > don't exist for people to be able to communicate (what their customers
> > consider their primary purpose to be).  They're there to make money and
> > it really doesn't care how well the communications aspect of it works.  
> 
> "Capitalism" is an insult term made up by Marxists to describe the Free 
> Market, which is "the free and open exchange of goods and services 
> between consenting parties".  Under the Free Market, to meet your
> own needs, you must meet the the needs of your customers.
> 
> Your description of communications customers only caring about money
> falls apart.  If the service stinks, folks go elsewhere.  As a
> small businessman, I can tell you that if I do not meet the needs
> of my customers, I STARVE.  I live it and breath it.  I am only
> rewarded for meeting my customers needs.
> 
> Red Hat has every right to sell itself to IBM, as Lands' End had every
> right to sell itself to Sears.  And I have every right to look elsewhere
> for someone else that will meet my needs.
> 
> I hope Fedora survives this. If not, someone else will pick up
> the slack.

+1
 
-- 
Erik

 
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Re: OT: IBM to buy RedHat