subject:"Re\: \[libreoffice\-users\] Book\-writing with Writer"

Hi :)  
Has anyone successfully tried this to get ePub versions of something fairly 
hefty such as our Published Guides?  I think it would be great if we could get 
all those guides done as ePub wouldn't it?  Anyone able to give it a go?  
Regards from
Tom :)  






 From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com
To: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com 
Cc: rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de; users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 12:56
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

On 12/07/2013, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:
 That works just fine. For my tastes, however, it's not quite as smooth a
 process or polished a result as with LyX/LaTeX.

Agree, for PDF, but it seems that the future of viewing content is in
digital format via mobile devices. So for archiving to paper, LaTeX
wins and maybe epub for electronic archives.


 -Original Message-
 From: rost52
 Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:00 PM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

 As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all and set

 styles to Default. Then
 create the styles I wanted and reformat the whole document.


By coincidence there has been a guide published to write epub
documents using LO:
http://opensource.com/life/13/8/how-create-ebook-open-source-way

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Sorry, got distracted.  Here's a link
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Regards from 
Tom :)






 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com 
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 14:11
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

Tom,

Do you have a link to one of the guides? I may have a go at trying different 
ways of converting one to EPUB just to see how it works. Might be kind of 
fun.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:31 AM
To: e-letter ; Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Has anyone successfully tried this to get ePub versions of something fairly 
hefty such as our Published Guides?  I think it would be great if we could 
get all those guides done as ePub wouldn't it?  Anyone able to give it a go?
Regards from
Tom :)






 From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com
To: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
Cc: rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de; users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 12:56
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


On 12/07/2013, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:
 That works just fine. For my tastes, however, it's not quite as smooth a
 process or polished a result as with LyX/LaTeX.

Agree, for PDF, but it seems that the future of viewing content is in
digital format via mobile devices. So for archiving to paper, LaTeX
wins and maybe epub for electronic archives.


 -Original Message-
 From: rost52
 Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:00 PM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

 As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all and 
 set

 styles to Default. Then
 create the styles I wanted and reformat the whole document.


By coincidence there has been a guide published to write epub
documents using LO:
http://opensource.com/life/13/8/how-create-ebook-open-source-way

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
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http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

I just did a couple experiments with LO and Writer2epub. I tried converting 
the entire 390 page Getting Started book to EPUB. It choked. I then tried 
doing the same with just the 18 page introduction. Same result. No EPUB 
output file was generated.


I noticed that Writer2epub doesn't like custom styles. It is apparently 
designed for fairly simple documents, using LO's built-in styles. It can't 
handle the elaborate formatting of the LO User Guides.


I then tried it using a theology paper I wrote a few years ago. I have 
several outline numbered styles, which again, Writer2epub doesn't translate 
well.


I think Writer2epub will work best with a document that is designed from the 
beginning for EPUB, but if you want to translate an existing document, you 
may need to do considerable work to make it ready for the extension.


These are just my observations after a half-hour experiment.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Virgil Arrington ; e-letter
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Sorry, got distracted.  Here's a link
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 14:11
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Tom,

Do you have a link to one of the guides? I may have a go at trying 
different

ways of converting one to EPUB just to see how it works. Might be kind of
fun.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:31 AM
To: e-letter ; Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Has anyone successfully tried this to get ePub versions of something fairly
hefty such as our Published Guides?  I think it would be great if we could
get all those guides done as ePub wouldn't it?  Anyone able to give it a 
go?

Regards from
Tom :)







From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com
To: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
Cc: rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de; users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 12:56
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


On 12/07/2013, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:

That works just fine. For my tastes, however, it's not quite as smooth a
process or polished a result as with LyX/LaTeX.


Agree, for PDF, but it seems that the future of viewing content is in
digital format via mobile devices. So for archiving to paper, LaTeX
wins and maybe epub for electronic archives.



-Original Message-
From: rost52
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:00 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all and
set

styles to Default. Then
create the styles I wanted and reformat the whole document.



By coincidence there has been a guide published to write epub
documents using LO:
http://opensource.com/life/13/8/how-create-ebook-open-source-way

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To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
That sounds a lot like LaTeX being best if you stick with their defaults so it 
kinda makes sense to me.  I think the Docs Team (i think mostly Dan  Jean 
wasn't it?) experimented with a few ways of getting ePubs from the guides and 
they might have useful ideas about it even though it's years later already.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com 
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 19:22
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

I just did a couple experiments with LO and Writer2epub. I tried converting 
the entire 390 page Getting Started book to EPUB. It choked. I then tried 
doing the same with just the 18 page introduction. Same result. No EPUB 
output file was generated.

I noticed that Writer2epub doesn't like custom styles. It is apparently 
designed for fairly simple documents, using LO's built-in styles. It can't 
handle the elaborate formatting of the LO User Guides.

I then tried it using a theology paper I wrote a few years ago. I have 
several outline numbered styles, which again, Writer2epub doesn't translate 
well.

I think Writer2epub will work best with a document that is designed from the 
beginning for EPUB, but if you want to translate an existing document, you 
may need to do considerable work to make it ready for the extension.

These are just my observations after a half-hour experiment.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Virgil Arrington ; e-letter
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Sorry, got distracted.  Here's a link
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Regards from
Tom :)






 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 14:11
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Tom,

Do you have a link to one of the guides? I may have a go at trying 
different
ways of converting one to EPUB just to see how it works. Might be kind of
fun.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:31 AM
To: e-letter ; Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Has anyone successfully tried this to get ePub versions of something fairly
hefty such as our Published Guides?  I think it would be great if we could
get all those guides done as ePub wouldn't it?  Anyone able to give it a 
go?
Regards from
Tom :)






 From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com
To: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
Cc: rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de; users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 12:56
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


On 12/07/2013, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:
 That works just fine. For my tastes, however, it's not quite as smooth a
 process or polished a result as with LyX/LaTeX.

Agree, for PDF, but it seems that the future of viewing content is in
digital format via mobile devices. So for archiving to paper, LaTeX
wins and maybe epub for electronic archives.


 -Original Message-
 From: rost52
 Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:00 PM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

 As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all and
 set

 styles to Default. Then
 create the styles I wanted and reformat the whole document.


By coincidence there has been a guide published to write epub
documents using LO:
http://opensource.com/life/13/8/how-create-ebook-open-source-way

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems?
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
deleted



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

I just redid the Writer2epub test with my theology paper after applying 
default LO styles. It worked a *lot* better. I really liked the way it 
handled the default Text Body style by not indenting the first paragraph 
after a heading and then indenting subsequent paragraphs. That is excellent 
typography (a standard in LaTeX) and often missing in EPUB files. However, 
it still ignored my attempt to apply outline numbering to the default 
Heading styles. But, it did recognize the heading styles for my table of 
contents and navigation keys on my Kindle.


As you allude, this is a good tool as long as you understand what it will, 
and will not, do. Work within its parameters and you'll like the result. Try 
to make it work *your* way, and it will disappoint.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:41 PM
To: Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
That sounds a lot like LaTeX being best if you stick with their defaults so 
it kinda makes sense to me.  I think the Docs Team (i think mostly Dan  
Jean wasn't it?) experimented with a few ways of getting ePubs from the 
guides and they might have useful ideas about it even though it's years 
later already.

Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 19:22
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


I just did a couple experiments with LO and Writer2epub. I tried converting
the entire 390 page Getting Started book to EPUB. It choked. I then tried
doing the same with just the 18 page introduction. Same result. No EPUB
output file was generated.

I noticed that Writer2epub doesn't like custom styles. It is apparently
designed for fairly simple documents, using LO's built-in styles. It can't
handle the elaborate formatting of the LO User Guides.

I then tried it using a theology paper I wrote a few years ago. I have
several outline numbered styles, which again, Writer2epub doesn't translate
well.

I think Writer2epub will work best with a document that is designed from 
the

beginning for EPUB, but if you want to translate an existing document, you
may need to do considerable work to make it ready for the extension.

These are just my observations after a half-hour experiment.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Virgil Arrington ; e-letter
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Sorry, got distracted.  Here's a link
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 14:11
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Tom,

Do you have a link to one of the guides? I may have a go at trying
different
ways of converting one to EPUB just to see how it works. Might be kind of
fun.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:31 AM
To: e-letter ; Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Has anyone successfully tried this to get ePub versions of something 
fairly

hefty such as our Published Guides?  I think it would be great if we could
get all those guides done as ePub wouldn't it?  Anyone able to give it a
go?
Regards from
Tom :)







From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com
To: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
Cc: rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de; users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 12:56
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


On 12/07/2013, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:
That works just fine. For my tastes, however, it's not quite as smooth 
a

process or polished a result as with LyX/LaTeX.


Agree, for PDF, but it seems that the future of viewing content is in
digital format via mobile devices. So for archiving to paper, LaTeX
wins and maybe epub for electronic archives.



-Original Message-
From: rost52
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:00 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all 
and

set

styles to Default. Then
create the styles I wanted and reformat the whole document.



By coincidence there has been a guide published to write epub
documents using LO:
http://opensource.com/life/13/8/how-create-ebook-open-source-way

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems?
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Another thing I noticed about the writer2epub extension. When I first 
downloaded it, it would not properly install into my LO 3.6.7. I then 
uninstalled my AOO 3.4.1 and AOO 4.0. The writer2epub extension then 
installed into LO.


It appears (as others have alluded) that LO and AOO have some conflicts when 
installed side by side on the same machine (registry perhaps which is beyond 
my knowledge). Since I'm finding that LO is progressing better than AOO, I'm 
happy to commit to just one of the suites.


Virgil



-Original Message- 
From: Virgil Arrington

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:58 PM
To: Tom Davies
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

I just redid the Writer2epub test with my theology paper after applying
default LO styles. It worked a *lot* better. I really liked the way it
handled the default Text Body style by not indenting the first paragraph
after a heading and then indenting subsequent paragraphs. That is excellent
typography (a standard in LaTeX) and often missing in EPUB files. However,
it still ignored my attempt to apply outline numbering to the default
Heading styles. But, it did recognize the heading styles for my table of
contents and navigation keys on my Kindle.

As you allude, this is a good tool as long as you understand what it will,
and will not, do. Work within its parameters and you'll like the result. Try
to make it work *your* way, and it will disappoint.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:41 PM
To: Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
That sounds a lot like LaTeX being best if you stick with their defaults so
it kinda makes sense to me.  I think the Docs Team (i think mostly Dan 
Jean wasn't it?) experimented with a few ways of getting ePubs from the
guides and they might have useful ideas about it even though it's years
later already.
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 19:22
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


I just did a couple experiments with LO and Writer2epub. I tried converting
the entire 390 page Getting Started book to EPUB. It choked. I then tried
doing the same with just the 18 page introduction. Same result. No EPUB
output file was generated.

I noticed that Writer2epub doesn't like custom styles. It is apparently
designed for fairly simple documents, using LO's built-in styles. It can't
handle the elaborate formatting of the LO User Guides.

I then tried it using a theology paper I wrote a few years ago. I have
several outline numbered styles, which again, Writer2epub doesn't translate
well.

I think Writer2epub will work best with a document that is designed from 
the

beginning for EPUB, but if you want to translate an existing document, you
may need to do considerable work to make it ready for the extension.

These are just my observations after a half-hour experiment.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Virgil Arrington ; e-letter
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Sorry, got distracted.  Here's a link
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 14:11
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Tom,

Do you have a link to one of the guides? I may have a go at trying
different
ways of converting one to EPUB just to see how it works. Might be kind of
fun.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:31 AM
To: e-letter ; Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Has anyone successfully tried this to get ePub versions of something 
fairly

hefty such as our Published Guides?  I think it would be great if we could
get all those guides done as ePub wouldn't it?  Anyone able to give it a
go?
Regards from
Tom :)







From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com
To: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
Cc: rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de; users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 12:56
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


On 12/07/2013, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:
That works just fine. For my tastes, however, it's not quite as smooth 
a

process or polished a result as with LyX/LaTeX.


Agree, for PDF, but it seems that the future of viewing content is in
digital format

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
That progress is sometimes a double-edge sword.  Many of us stick with older 
branches, or in other word only upgrade most of our machines to the newer 
branch when the newer one reaches x.x.3 or x.x.4.  

On the other hand AOO is more stable for more of it's branches life-cycles 
precisely because they don't develop so fast, which kinda makes it a tad dull 
and unlikely to succeed in the longer term once everyone else has left it so 
far behind.  

There is a guide somewhere on how to get 2 versions of these suites working 
alongside each other.  It's not trivial, unless you have done it before in 
which case it's probably quite easy
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk 
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 20:15
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

Another thing I noticed about the writer2epub extension. When I first 
downloaded it, it would not properly install into my LO 3.6.7. I then 
uninstalled my AOO 3.4.1 and AOO 4.0. The writer2epub extension then 
installed into LO.

It appears (as others have alluded) that LO and AOO have some conflicts when 
installed side by side on the same machine (registry perhaps which is beyond 
my knowledge). Since I'm finding that LO is progressing better than AOO, I'm 
happy to commit to just one of the suites.

Virgil



-Original Message- 
From: Virgil Arrington
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:58 PM
To: Tom Davies
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

I just redid the Writer2epub test with my theology paper after applying
default LO styles. It worked a *lot* better. I really liked the way it
handled the default Text Body style by not indenting the first paragraph
after a heading and then indenting subsequent paragraphs. That is excellent
typography (a standard in LaTeX) and often missing in EPUB files. However,
it still ignored my attempt to apply outline numbering to the default
Heading styles. But, it did recognize the heading styles for my table of
contents and navigation keys on my Kindle.

As you allude, this is a good tool as long as you understand what it will,
and will not, do. Work within its parameters and you'll like the result. Try
to make it work *your* way, and it will disappoint.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:41 PM
To: Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
That sounds a lot like LaTeX being best if you stick with their defaults so
it kinda makes sense to me.  I think the Docs Team (i think mostly Dan 
Jean wasn't it?) experimented with a few ways of getting ePubs from the
guides and they might have useful ideas about it even though it's years
later already.
Regards from
Tom :)






 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 19:22
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


I just did a couple experiments with LO and Writer2epub. I tried converting
the entire 390 page Getting Started book to EPUB. It choked. I then tried
doing the same with just the 18 page introduction. Same result. No EPUB
output file was generated.

I noticed that Writer2epub doesn't like custom styles. It is apparently
designed for fairly simple documents, using LO's built-in styles. It can't
handle the elaborate formatting of the LO User Guides.

I then tried it using a theology paper I wrote a few years ago. I have
several outline numbered styles, which again, Writer2epub doesn't translate
well.

I think Writer2epub will work best with a document that is designed from 
the
beginning for EPUB, but if you want to translate an existing document, you
may need to do considerable work to make it ready for the extension.

These are just my observations after a half-hour experiment.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Virgil Arrington ; e-letter
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Sorry, got distracted.  Here's a link
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Regards from
Tom :)






 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 14:11
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Tom,

Do you have a link to one of the guides? I may have a go at trying
different
ways of converting one to EPUB just to see how it works. Might be kind of
fun.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:31 AM
To: e

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-08-13 Thread Kracked_P_P---webmaster



There is a version for AOO, several actually written by a guy with an 
Italian country code.


One for version if for 3.x, another for 4.0, and a new Beta one.

So you may need to look into which one you are using for which version 
of LO or AOO.


I found this out by Googling odf to epub converter


On 08/13/2013 04:15 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
Another thing I noticed about the writer2epub extension. When I first 
downloaded it, it would not properly install into my LO 3.6.7. I then 
uninstalled my AOO 3.4.1 and AOO 4.0. The writer2epub extension then 
installed into LO.


It appears (as others have alluded) that LO and AOO have some 
conflicts when installed side by side on the same machine (registry 
perhaps which is beyond my knowledge). Since I'm finding that LO is 
progressing better than AOO, I'm happy to commit to just one of the 
suites.


Virgil



-Original Message- From: Virgil Arrington
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:58 PM
To: Tom Davies
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

I just redid the Writer2epub test with my theology paper after applying
default LO styles. It worked a *lot* better. I really liked the way it
handled the default Text Body style by not indenting the first 
paragraph
after a heading and then indenting subsequent paragraphs. That is 
excellent
typography (a standard in LaTeX) and often missing in EPUB files. 
However,

it still ignored my attempt to apply outline numbering to the default
Heading styles. But, it did recognize the heading styles for my table of
contents and navigation keys on my Kindle.

As you allude, this is a good tool as long as you understand what it 
will,
and will not, do. Work within its parameters and you'll like the 
result. Try

to make it work *your* way, and it will disappoint.

Virgil

-Original Message- From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:41 PM
To: Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
That sounds a lot like LaTeX being best if you stick with their 
defaults so

it kinda makes sense to me.  I think the Docs Team (i think mostly Dan 
Jean wasn't it?) experimented with a few ways of getting ePubs from the
guides and they might have useful ideas about it even though it's years
later already.
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 19:22
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


I just did a couple experiments with LO and Writer2epub. I tried 
converting
the entire 390 page Getting Started book to EPUB. It choked. I then 
tried

doing the same with just the 18 page introduction. Same result. No EPUB
output file was generated.

I noticed that Writer2epub doesn't like custom styles. It is apparently
designed for fairly simple documents, using LO's built-in styles. It 
can't

handle the elaborate formatting of the LO User Guides.

I then tried it using a theology paper I wrote a few years ago. I have
several outline numbered styles, which again, Writer2epub doesn't 
translate

well.

I think Writer2epub will work best with a document that is designed 
from the
beginning for EPUB, but if you want to translate an existing 
document, you

may need to do considerable work to make it ready for the extension.

These are just my observations after a half-hour experiment.

Virgil

-Original Message- From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Virgil Arrington ; e-letter
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Sorry, got distracted.  Here's a link
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 14:11
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Tom,

Do you have a link to one of the guides? I may have a go at trying
different
ways of converting one to EPUB just to see how it works. Might be 
kind of

fun.

Virgil

-Original Message- From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 8:31 AM
To: e-letter ; Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Has anyone successfully tried this to get ePub versions of something 
fairly
hefty such as our Published Guides?  I think it would be great if we 
could
get all those guides done as ePub wouldn't it?  Anyone able to give 
it a

go?
Regards from
Tom :)







From: e-letter inp...@gmail.com
To: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
Cc: rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de; users@global.libreoffice.org

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

I got mine from http://lukesblog.it/ebooks/ebook-tools/writer2epub/. There's 
a version that words for LO 3, LO 4 and AOO 3, along with a separate version 
for AOO 4.


My problem wasn't that I had the wrong version. I got the version that was 
designed for LO. It just wouldn't install as long as I had AOO on my system. 
Once I uninstalled AOO, the extension worked fine with LO.


Of course, I have no idea *why* this behavior occurred. I won't blame AOO or 
anything else. I can't even scientifically say that LO and AOO had a 
conflict. I just know that, once I uninstalled AOO, I was able to install 
the writer2epub extension into my LO. I recalled someone else on the list 
saying that LO and AOO may conflict by sharing common Windows registry 
entries. That stuff is beyond my abilities, but I just shared it for others 
who may be interested.


Virgil



-Original Message- 
From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster

Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 7:41 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


There is a version for AOO, several actually written by a guy with an
Italian country code.

One for version if for 3.x, another for 4.0, and a new Beta one.

So you may need to look into which one you are using for which version
of LO or AOO.

I found this out by Googling odf to epub converter


On 08/13/2013 04:15 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
Another thing I noticed about the writer2epub extension. When I first 
downloaded it, it would not properly install into my LO 3.6.7. I then 
uninstalled my AOO 3.4.1 and AOO 4.0. The writer2epub extension then 
installed into LO.


It appears (as others have alluded) that LO and AOO have some conflicts 
when installed side by side on the same machine (registry perhaps which is 
beyond my knowledge). Since I'm finding that LO is progressing better than 
AOO, I'm happy to commit to just one of the suites.


Virgil



-Original Message- From: Virgil Arrington
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:58 PM
To: Tom Davies
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

I just redid the Writer2epub test with my theology paper after applying
default LO styles. It worked a *lot* better. I really liked the way it
handled the default Text Body style by not indenting the first paragraph
after a heading and then indenting subsequent paragraphs. That is 
excellent

typography (a standard in LaTeX) and often missing in EPUB files. However,
it still ignored my attempt to apply outline numbering to the default
Heading styles. But, it did recognize the heading styles for my table of
contents and navigation keys on my Kindle.

As you allude, this is a good tool as long as you understand what it will,
and will not, do. Work within its parameters and you'll like the result. 
Try

to make it work *your* way, and it will disappoint.

Virgil

-Original Message- From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:41 PM
To: Virgil Arrington
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
That sounds a lot like LaTeX being best if you stick with their defaults 
so

it kinda makes sense to me.  I think the Docs Team (i think mostly Dan 
Jean wasn't it?) experimented with a few ways of getting ePubs from the
guides and they might have useful ideas about it even though it's years
later already.
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 19:22
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


I just did a couple experiments with LO and Writer2epub. I tried 
converting

the entire 390 page Getting Started book to EPUB. It choked. I then tried
doing the same with just the 18 page introduction. Same result. No EPUB
output file was generated.

I noticed that Writer2epub doesn't like custom styles. It is apparently
designed for fairly simple documents, using LO's built-in styles. It 
can't

handle the elaborate formatting of the LO User Guides.

I then tried it using a theology paper I wrote a few years ago. I have
several outline numbered styles, which again, Writer2epub doesn't 
translate

well.

I think Writer2epub will work best with a document that is designed from 
the
beginning for EPUB, but if you want to translate an existing document, 
you

may need to do considerable work to make it ready for the extension.

These are just my observations after a half-hour experiment.

Virgil

-Original Message- From: Tom Davies
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 10:46 AM
To: Virgil Arrington ; e-letter
Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
Sorry, got distracted.  Here's a link
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications
Regards from
Tom :)







From: Virgil

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-08-13 Thread jorge

Hi all !

Virgil, How did you try to install the writer2epub ? Did you use the
wizzard that have LO or AOO ?

Regards,

Jorge Rodríguez


El mar, 13-08-2013 a las 20:36 -0400, Virgil Arrington escribió:
 I got mine from http://lukesblog.it/ebooks/ebook-tools/writer2epub/. There's 
 a version that words for LO 3, LO 4 and AOO 3, along with a separate version 
 for AOO 4.
 
 My problem wasn't that I had the wrong version. I got the version that was 
 designed for LO. It just wouldn't install as long as I had AOO on my system. 
 Once I uninstalled AOO, the extension worked fine with LO.
 
 Of course, I have no idea *why* this behavior occurred. I won't blame AOO or 
 anything else. I can't even scientifically say that LO and AOO had a 
 conflict. I just know that, once I uninstalled AOO, I was able to install 
 the writer2epub extension into my LO. I recalled someone else on the list 
 saying that LO and AOO may conflict by sharing common Windows registry 
 entries. That stuff is beyond my abilities, but I just shared it for others 
 who may be interested.
 
 Virgil
 
 
 
 -Original Message- 
 From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster
 Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 7:41 PM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 
 
 There is a version for AOO, several actually written by a guy with an
 Italian country code.
 
 One for version if for 3.x, another for 4.0, and a new Beta one.
 
 So you may need to look into which one you are using for which version
 of LO or AOO.
 
 I found this out by Googling odf to epub converter
 
 
 On 08/13/2013 04:15 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
  Another thing I noticed about the writer2epub extension. When I first 
  downloaded it, it would not properly install into my LO 3.6.7. I then 
  uninstalled my AOO 3.4.1 and AOO 4.0. The writer2epub extension then 
  installed into LO.
 
  It appears (as others have alluded) that LO and AOO have some conflicts 
  when installed side by side on the same machine (registry perhaps which is 
  beyond my knowledge). Since I'm finding that LO is progressing better than 
  AOO, I'm happy to commit to just one of the suites.
 
  Virgil
 
 
 
  -Original Message- From: Virgil Arrington
  Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:58 PM
  To: Tom Davies
  Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
  Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 
  I just redid the Writer2epub test with my theology paper after applying
  default LO styles. It worked a *lot* better. I really liked the way it
  handled the default Text Body style by not indenting the first paragraph
  after a heading and then indenting subsequent paragraphs. That is 
  excellent
  typography (a standard in LaTeX) and often missing in EPUB files. However,
  it still ignored my attempt to apply outline numbering to the default
  Heading styles. But, it did recognize the heading styles for my table of
  contents and navigation keys on my Kindle.
 
  As you allude, this is a good tool as long as you understand what it will,
  and will not, do. Work within its parameters and you'll like the result. 
  Try
  to make it work *your* way, and it will disappoint.
 
  Virgil
 
  -Original Message- From: Tom Davies
  Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 2:41 PM
  To: Virgil Arrington
  Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
  Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 
  Hi :)
  That sounds a lot like LaTeX being best if you stick with their defaults 
  so
  it kinda makes sense to me.  I think the Docs Team (i think mostly Dan 
  Jean wasn't it?) experimented with a few ways of getting ePubs from the
  guides and they might have useful ideas about it even though it's years
  later already.
  Regards from
  Tom :)
 
 
 
 
 
  
  From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
  To: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk; e-letter inp...@gmail.com
  Cc: users@global.libreoffice.org
  Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 19:22
  Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 
 
  I just did a couple experiments with LO and Writer2epub. I tried 
  converting
  the entire 390 page Getting Started book to EPUB. It choked. I then tried
  doing the same with just the 18 page introduction. Same result. No EPUB
  output file was generated.
 
  I noticed that Writer2epub doesn't like custom styles. It is apparently
  designed for fairly simple documents, using LO's built-in styles. It 
  can't
  handle the elaborate formatting of the LO User Guides.
 
  I then tried it using a theology paper I wrote a few years ago. I have
  several outline numbered styles, which again, Writer2epub doesn't 
  translate
  well.
 
  I think Writer2epub will work best with a document that is designed from 
  the
  beginning for EPUB, but if you want to translate an existing document, 
  you
  may need to do considerable work to make it ready for the extension.
 
  These are just my observations after a half-hour experiment.
 
  Virgil

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-12 Thread Fernand Vanrie


Virgil ,

the secret of styles for ebook publishing is the OutLineLevel you can 
uses any style but change your paragraph styles to the correct OutlineLevel


TITEL = OutlineLevel 1

Subtitel = OutlineLevel 2

Subsubtitel = OutlineLevel 3 etc...to 9

Wolfgang,

I don't believe I've heard of structure markup style concept and I'm 
not sure I understand what you mean. I used WordPerfect for years and 
could never quite get the hang of WP's styles, all the while I took to 
Word's and OO's (now LO's) styles quite easily. When I used WP, 
everything was very typewriter-like, with commands being inserted in a 
linear fashion until they were changed by a later command. Hence the 
reason reveal codes was so essential with WP.


Virgil

-Original Message- From: Wolfgang Keller
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:17 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


For example, several years ago, my 14 year old son challenged himself
to type a 50,000 word novel in November, which is National Novel
Writers Month. He met his goal, and quickly dropped the project.

As a proud papa, I wanted to put his document to paper. He wrote the
original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray
tabs, carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter
and section headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page
novel using WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long
for me to realize it would take days and days to wade through all of
the formatting codes inserted by WP.


I have to say that unlike MS Word and its clones OO and LO, Wordperfect
*does* allow proper use of styles for structure markup. Among the
dozens of different document processing applications I have used over
the past 25 years, Wordperfect was one of the best for authoring
strongly structured documents, at par with Framemaker. Unfortunately it
fell into the hands of an incompentent company (at Corel).

Obivously, nothing (besides Indesign with a *competent* typographer
in front of it) beats the typographic output of LyX/LaTeX, so if you
want to produce a PDF ready for print, there's no other choice. I even
use it for letters.

Until they get redesigned to implement a proper structure markup
style concept and correct typographic features (all line- and
page-breaking algorithms from LaTeX are open-source), LO and OO have
their value mostly for generating documents from databases.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

That works just fine. For my tastes, however, it's not quite as smooth a 
process or polished a result as with LyX/LaTeX. But, as I've said before, 
LyX/LaTeX have their own sets of problems.


Perhaps the best solution is the one a person will actually use to get the 
job done. One Scrivener reviewer commented that evaluating writing software 
is more fun than writing. I have found that true as I often spend more time 
trying to find the perfect writing tool than I do actually writing.


Many years ago, a person was talking to Mike Royko, a Chicago journalist 
about writing a book. He asked Mike what the best software was for doing the 
task. Mike replied something to the effect of, Software? Look, son, get 
yourself a legal pad and a pen and just start writing.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: rost52

Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:00 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all and set 
styles to Default. Then

create the styles I wanted and reformat the whole document.

On 12.07.2013 01:17, Wolfgang Keller wrote:

For example, several years ago, my 14 year old son challenged himself
to type a 50,000 word novel in November, which is National Novel
Writers Month. He met his goal, and quickly dropped the project.

As a proud papa, I wanted to put his document to paper. He wrote the
original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray
tabs, carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter
and section headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page
novel using WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long
for me to realize it would take days and days to wade through all of
the formatting codes inserted by WP.

I have to say that unlike MS Word and its clones OO and LO, Wordperfect
*does* allow proper use of styles for structure markup. Among the
dozens of different document processing applications I have used over
the past 25 years, Wordperfect was one of the best for authoring
strongly structured documents, at par with Framemaker. Unfortunately it
fell into the hands of an incompentent company (at Corel).

Obivously, nothing (besides Indesign with a *competent* typographer
in front of it) beats the typographic output of LyX/LaTeX, so if you
want to produce a PDF ready for print, there's no other choice. I even
use it for letters.
  Until they get redesigned to implement a proper structure markup
style concept and correct typographic features (all line- and
page-breaking algorithms from LaTeX are open-source), LO and OO have
their value mostly for generating documents from databases.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-12 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
+1
Well said! :)  The tools sometimes get in the way of doing the job.  Yes, keep 
learning new tricks and better ways when idling along but just use whatever you 
are comfortable with when you need to get a job done.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: rost52 bugquestcon...@online.de; users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013, 12:30
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

That works just fine. For my tastes, however, it's not quite as smooth a 
process or polished a result as with LyX/LaTeX. But, as I've said before, 
LyX/LaTeX have their own sets of problems.

Perhaps the best solution is the one a person will actually use to get the 
job done. One Scrivener reviewer commented that evaluating writing software 
is more fun than writing. I have found that true as I often spend more time 
trying to find the perfect writing tool than I do actually writing.

Many years ago, a person was talking to Mike Royko, a Chicago journalist 
about writing a book. He asked Mike what the best software was for doing the 
task. Mike replied something to the effect of, Software? Look, son, get 
yourself a legal pad and a pen and just start writing.

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: rost52
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 10:00 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all and set 
styles to Default. Then
create the styles I wanted and reformat the whole document.

On 12.07.2013 01:17, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
 For example, several years ago, my 14 year old son challenged himself
 to type a 50,000 word novel in November, which is National Novel
 Writers Month. He met his goal, and quickly dropped the project.

 As a proud papa, I wanted to put his document to paper. He wrote the
 original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray
 tabs, carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter
 and section headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page
 novel using WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long
 for me to realize it would take days and days to wade through all of
 the formatting codes inserted by WP.
 I have to say that unlike MS Word and its clones OO and LO, Wordperfect
 *does* allow proper use of styles for structure markup. Among the
 dozens of different document processing applications I have used over
 the past 25 years, Wordperfect was one of the best for authoring
 strongly structured documents, at par with Framemaker. Unfortunately it
 fell into the hands of an incompentent company (at Corel).

 Obivously, nothing (besides Indesign with a *competent* typographer
 in front of it) beats the typographic output of LyX/LaTeX, so if you
 want to produce a PDF ready for print, there's no other choice. I even
 use it for letters.
   Until they get redesigned to implement a proper structure markup
 style concept and correct typographic features (all line- and
 page-breaking algorithms from LaTeX are open-source), LO and OO have
 their value mostly for generating documents from databases.

 Sincerely,

 Wolfgang



-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? 
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-12 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
Thanks for the tips!

it's good to hear from someone that is getting published and able to show it
Thanks and regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Jack Wallen jlwal...@monkeypantz.net
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Friday, 12 July 2013, 3:18
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 


On 07/11/2013 10:00 PM, rost52 wrote:
 As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all 
 and set styles to Default. Then create the styles I wanted and 
 reformat the whole document.

 On 12.07.2013 01:17, Wolfgang Keller wrote:



I'll reiterate this again -- if you're self publishing (and you intend 
on doing so with Amazon, BN, Smashwords, KOBO, etc... you will have to 
convert whatever file you create into .mobi or .epub format. The best 
tool for that task is Calibre. And the best way to do that is to save a 
doc as an .html file (in LO), import it into Calibre, and then covert 
it. That's what I've done for every novel I've published.

-- 
*Jack Wallen*|The Zombie King
Get on the Dark Hayride at Get Jack'd
Author of the I Zombie, Fringe Killers, The Nameless, and Shero series 
of books


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

I fully agree. I use outline level styles all the time, and they make a 
world of difference, especially when used in headings. They make jumping 
from one heading to the next actually work on my Kindle.


Virgil

--- 
From: Fernand Vanrie

Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 3:22 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Virgil ,

the secret of styles for ebook publishing is the OutLineLevel you can
uses any style but change your paragraph styles to the correct OutlineLevel

TITEL = OutlineLevel 1

Subtitel = OutlineLevel 2

Subsubtitel = OutlineLevel 3 etc...to 9

Wolfgang,

I don't believe I've heard of structure markup style concept and I'm not 
sure I understand what you mean. I used WordPerfect for years and could 
never quite get the hang of WP's styles, all the while I took to Word's 
and OO's (now LO's) styles quite easily. When I used WP, everything was 
very typewriter-like, with commands being inserted in a linear fashion 
until they were changed by a later command. Hence the reason reveal 
codes was so essential with WP.


Virgil

-Original Message- From: Wolfgang Keller
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:17 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


For example, several years ago, my 14 year old son challenged himself
to type a 50,000 word novel in November, which is National Novel
Writers Month. He met his goal, and quickly dropped the project.

As a proud papa, I wanted to put his document to paper. He wrote the
original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray
tabs, carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter
and section headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page
novel using WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long
for me to realize it would take days and days to wade through all of
the formatting codes inserted by WP.


I have to say that unlike MS Word and its clones OO and LO, Wordperfect
*does* allow proper use of styles for structure markup. Among the
dozens of different document processing applications I have used over
the past 25 years, Wordperfect was one of the best for authoring
strongly structured documents, at par with Framemaker. Unfortunately it
fell into the hands of an incompentent company (at Corel).

Obivously, nothing (besides Indesign with a *competent* typographer
in front of it) beats the typographic output of LyX/LaTeX, so if you
want to produce a PDF ready for print, there's no other choice. I even
use it for letters.

Until they get redesigned to implement a proper structure markup
style concept and correct typographic features (all line- and
page-breaking algorithms from LaTeX are open-source), LO and OO have
their value mostly for generating documents from databases.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-12 Thread jack wallen


 I fully agree. I use outline level styles all the time, and they make a
 world of difference, especially when used in headings. They make jumping
 from one heading to the next actually work on my Kindle.

 Virgil


Along those same lines -- when you convert in Calibre -- the ONLY thing
that matters (as far as chapters are concerned) is the style you use for
said chapter headings. I always use H3 and then make sure to catch this in
the Structure Detection section of the conversion window. With this you
can define some nice things (such as page breaks).


 ---
 From: Fernand Vanrie
 Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 3:22 AM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

 Virgil ,

 the secret of styles for ebook publishing is the OutLineLevel you can
 uses any style but change your paragraph styles to the correct
 OutlineLevel

 TITEL = OutlineLevel 1

  Subtitel = OutlineLevel 2

  Subsubtitel = OutlineLevel 3 etc...to 9
 Wolfgang,

 I don't believe I've heard of structure markup style concept and I'm
 not
 sure I understand what you mean. I used WordPerfect for years and could
 never quite get the hang of WP's styles, all the while I took to Word's
 and OO's (now LO's) styles quite easily. When I used WP, everything was
 very typewriter-like, with commands being inserted in a linear fashion
 until they were changed by a later command. Hence the reason reveal
 codes was so essential with WP.

 Virgil

 -Original Message- From: Wolfgang Keller
 Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 12:17 PM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

 For example, several years ago, my 14 year old son challenged himself
 to type a 50,000 word novel in November, which is National Novel
 Writers Month. He met his goal, and quickly dropped the project.

 As a proud papa, I wanted to put his document to paper. He wrote the
 original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray
 tabs, carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter
 and section headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page
 novel using WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long
 for me to realize it would take days and days to wade through all of
 the formatting codes inserted by WP.

 I have to say that unlike MS Word and its clones OO and LO, Wordperfect
 *does* allow proper use of styles for structure markup. Among the
 dozens of different document processing applications I have used over
 the past 25 years, Wordperfect was one of the best for authoring
 strongly structured documents, at par with Framemaker. Unfortunately it
 fell into the hands of an incompentent company (at Corel).

 Obivously, nothing (besides Indesign with a *competent* typographer
 in front of it) beats the typographic output of LyX/LaTeX, so if you
 want to produce a PDF ready for print, there's no other choice. I even
 use it for letters.

 Until they get redesigned to implement a proper structure markup
 style concept and correct typographic features (all line- and
 page-breaking algorithms from LaTeX are open-source), LO and OO have
 their value mostly for generating documents from databases.

 Sincerely,

 Wolfgang



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-- 
jack wallen, jr --- lover of entropy

Writer of the I Zombie, Fringe Killer, Shero, and Screampark series as
well as the upcoming The Book of Jacob Series.
Learn more @ www.monkeypantz.net


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-12 Thread Regina Henschel


Hi Wolfgang,

Wolfgang Keller schrieb:

I don't believe I've heard of structure markup style concept and
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. I used WordPerfect for years
and could never quite get the hang of WP's styles, all the while I
took to Word's and OO's (now LO's) styles quite easily.


To put it simply:

Wordperfect (or e.g. Framemaker) styles allow to do structure markup.

Word, OO and LO styles don't.


All three allow structure markup. In Word it is a little bit hidden in 
the UI, but in AOO and LO it is easily done.




In essence, this boils down to the fact that all sane document
processing applications (whether Wordperfect, Framemaker or dozens
of others, LaTeX or anything that outputs structured XML) use nestable
open- and close-tags, while Word and LO/OO don't.


That is wrong. AOO and LO use ODF which is XML. What do you want to do, 
which is not possible?




The style concept of Wordperfect was so well designed that the original
developers (Wordperfect) even implemented an XML authoring application
(for structured XML, using real schemas and stylesheets, not spaghetti
garbage like the Opendocument XML) that used the Wordperfect UI,
including the style editor. This application is even shipped with every
copy of Corel Office, it's just mentioned or documented nowhere.


You will need to explain spaghetti garbage.
You can read the schema for ODF in 
http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html for 
example.





The style concept of both Word and LO/OO however is so severely screwed
up that I've never ever seen a document that would have allowed to
re-use content in any other way (within the same application!) than by
copying and pasting it as unformatted text and then re-applying all
the formatting by hand.


So you would need to blame the people who wrote the documents. If you 
use LO correctly, then copy and paste works well. That does not mean, 
that all cases are free from errors. But those are bugs and no errors in 
the concept.




Unfortunately these days, people only learn with MS garbage and thus
they learn document processing exactly the wrong way.


You underestimate the teachers.



And of course, the reveal codes view of Wordperfect at least allowed
to debug documents, while there is absolutely no way to do this with
Word or LO/OO documents.


Mmh, I had no problem to detect the errors in the documents my pupils 
had produced.


 And I wish the source view in LyX was editable.

Then you will like to use fodt in LibreOffice.

Kind regards
Regina






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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-12 Thread Mirosław Zalewski

On 12/07/2013 at 16:09, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote:

 Wordperfect (or e.g. Framemaker) styles allow to do structure markup.
 
 Word, OO and LO styles don't.
 
 In essence, this boils down to the fact that all sane document
 processing applications (whether Wordperfect, Framemaker or dozens
 of others, LaTeX or anything that outputs structured XML) use nestable
 open- and close-tags, while Word and LO/OO don't.

Just because LO/OOo/MSO does not show tags, does not mean that they do not 
allow structural markup.

In LaTeX, you are free to make the same spaghetti garbage as in any other text 
processing software. No one prevents you from creating you heading like this:

#v+
\vspace{2 cc}
{\LARGE \textbf{1.\hspace{1.5 cc}This is my heading}}
\vspace{1 cc}
#v-

It's equivalent to putting empty paragraphs before and after heading and 
manually formatting it (making text larger and bolder).

LaTeX \section{This is my heading} is equivalent to LO's applying one of 
Heading X styles.

 The style concept of both Word and LO/OO however is so severely screwed
 up that I've never ever seen a document that would have allowed to
 re-use content in any other way (within the same application!) than by
 copying and pasting it as unformatted text and then re-applying all
 the formatting by hand.

This only means that people who you've had working with can not use their 
tools properly. If they had used styles, you could reuse content of one 
document within another with ease.

OK, I can agree that this is somewhat tools fault (they could make more 
advanced features more discoverable and easier to understand); but I can not 
agree that only tools are to blame.

 And of course, the reveal codes view of Wordperfect at least allowed
 to debug documents, while there is absolutely no way to do this with
 Word or LO/OO documents

MS Word's Style Inspector is pretty useful, but rather hidden feature designed 
for exactly this task.
Unfortunately, LO does not have any equivalent.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Wolfgang,

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm trying to understand what you're saying. You 
wrote:



In essence, this boils down to the fact that all sane document
processing applications (whether Wordperfect, Framemaker or dozens
of others, LaTeX or anything that outputs structured XML) use nestable
open- and close-tags, while Word and LO/OO don't.


I've created my own paragraph styles, and I have one called BodySingle. 
It's just a single-spaced body of text with no paragraph indents. When I 
create a document in WordPerfect (an old Version 7) and look at a document 
in reveal codes, I get a code that says, for example, Para Style: 
BodySingle before each paragraph that has BodySingle applied to it and the 
same code at the end of each paragraph with that style.


When I look at a similar document in LO's content.xml file, I see text:p 
text:style-name=BodySingle before each BodySingle paragraph and a 
/text:p at the end of each paragraph.


The only real difference I see is that LO ends each paragraph with a more 
generic tag /text:p: with no specific reference to the applied style 
whereas WordPerfect ends each paragraph with a specific reference to the 
applied style.


Is that the distinction you're making between the two methods, and if so, 
how does that matter?


Virgil 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Wolfgang,

You also wrote:


The style concept of both Word and LO/OO however is so severely screwed
up that I've never ever seen a document that would have allowed to
re-use content in any other way (within the same application!) than by
copying and pasting it as unformatted text and then re-applying all
the formatting by hand.


If I understand you correctly (and I'm not at all certain I do), I think 
I've noticed similar behavior. I've noticed that if I copy and paste text in 
Word or LO/OO *and* include the closing paragraph marking (¶) then the 
paragraph formatting will also be pasted, but if I copy text without 
including the closing paragraph marking, then the text will be pasted using 
the same paragraph style as the destination paragraph. However, character 
formatting (bold, italic) is retained in the pasted text. I've never had a 
problem, as long as I keep the paragraph markings revealed and either select 
or not select them based on my specific needs at the time.


Virgil 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-11 Thread Virgil Arrington


Okay, this is really spooky, or I'm just growing paranoid.

Two days ago, I downloaded Scrivener. Yesterday, I clicked on the hipiers 
link suggested below.


Today, I receive an email from Amazon suggesting I buy the book, Writers 
Tune-up Manual.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster

Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:08 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

On 07/10/2013 08:37 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

Urmas wrote:

The tool that you use does not matter. Everything thay you write will be 
decomposed and virtually remade in the DTP program, most likely InDesign.


You may be right if the project goes to a professional publisher for final 
output. But, Pablo's original question stated he would be creating a self 
published, free ebook. Pablo is apparently looking for a solution that 
*avoids* the need to present his book to a professional publisher.


Virgil



The poster might want to look at this page.

http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html

In the list, there is information about some publishers and services,
with some references to e-book self publishing.  IT might be worth a look.

If the poster wants to make money on a self-published e-book, then there
may be some good information there to guide through the process.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-11 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
I think ani-privacy is an array of automated processes that is waaay out of 
anyone's control now.  Just click on the Spam button and let your filters 
learn what to block and what to accept.  People love to share intimate details 
of their life with everyone across the planet (Facebook, Twitter, and other 
social networking is enormously popular).  We have actively encouraged 
companies to collect information on all of us.  Just avoid thinking of it as 
spooky and let them drown under the weight of the data.
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Kracked_P_P---webmaster webmas...@krackedpress.com; 
users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 11:56
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

Okay, this is really spooky, or I'm just growing paranoid.

Two days ago, I downloaded Scrivener. Yesterday, I clicked on the hipiers 
link suggested below.

Today, I receive an email from Amazon suggesting I buy the book, Writers 
Tune-up Manual.

Virgil

-Original Message- From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:08 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

On 07/10/2013 08:37 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
 Urmas wrote:
 
 The tool that you use does not matter. Everything thay you write will be 
 decomposed and virtually remade in the DTP program, most likely InDesign.
 
 You may be right if the project goes to a professional publisher for final 
 output. But, Pablo's original question stated he would be creating a self 
 published, free ebook. Pablo is apparently looking for a solution that 
 *avoids* the need to present his book to a professional publisher.
 
 Virgil
 

The poster might want to look at this page.

http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html

In the list, there is information about some publishers and services,
with some references to e-book self publishing.  IT might be worth a look.

If the poster wants to make money on a self-published e-book, then there
may be some good information there to guide through the process.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-11 Thread Kracked_P_P---webmaster



hipiers.com does not send out spam emails, or it should not since the 
owner of the domain is against spam as much as we are.


I do not know anything about Scrivener or its web site.

Did you do a Google or Amazon search for writer info, a book search,  
or some other one that might make you think you are a writer of some 
type of book or manual?  If you did, you may have triggered a 
advertisement from Amazon.


When I look at my weather site, it displays advertisement based on my 
searches on Amazon, Google, and even Tigerdirect.com [computer and 
electronics web store].


Of course, you could always use the Private Window option in Mozilla 
Firefox to reduce your web footprint and not give, the web sites you 
visit, your info that is stored in your bowser, such as email address 
and other things you do not want given out.  Every browser I know of has 
personal information stored in it.  The trick is to make your browser 
not have this info available to the sites you visit.  Firefox has the 
private window option. [File  New Private Window].





On 07/11/2013 06:56 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

Okay, this is really spooky, or I'm just growing paranoid.

Two days ago, I downloaded Scrivener. Yesterday, I clicked on the 
hipiers link suggested below.


Today, I receive an email from Amazon suggesting I buy the book, 
Writers Tune-up Manual.


Virgil

-Original Message- From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:08 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

On 07/10/2013 08:37 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

Urmas wrote:

The tool that you use does not matter. Everything thay you write 
will be decomposed and virtually remade in the DTP program, most 
likely InDesign.


You may be right if the project goes to a professional publisher for 
final output. But, Pablo's original question stated he would be 
creating a self published, free ebook. Pablo is apparently looking 
for a solution that *avoids* the need to present his book to a 
professional publisher.


Virgil



The poster might want to look at this page.

http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html

In the list, there is information about some publishers and services,
with some references to e-book self publishing.  IT might be worth a 
look.


If the poster wants to make money on a self-published e-book, then there
may be some good information there to guide through the process.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-11 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
Errr, just my own personal opinion of course and on a bad hair day

Try watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail, particularly the scene with the 
peasants working in the field and claiming to be an autonomous collective and 
then admitting their lord was out to lunch.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Tom Davies tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Kracked_P_P---webmaster webmas...@krackedpress.com; 
users@global.libreoffice.org users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 13:40
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 


Hi :)
I think that Private Window is based on a standards agreement that went 
through the US Senate and was heavily lobbied against by hefty US companies 
that were grumbling that they needed to invade everyone's privacy in order to 
be able to sell their products and make America great (they meant the US, but 
obviously they ignore the southern half of the continent and the 50% of the 
remaining land mass that is Canada).  

The result is that websites are sent an extra bit of information about you and 
that bit is your intention to be anonymous and that information, along with 
all the rest, can be logged by whichever site you visit.  Some governments (ie 
not just in the US) agencies see the desire to be  anonymous (ie a loner) as 
suspicious so once they have figured out how to do it then they might put you 
higher up
 any lists they might keep (if they can handle the volume of data) and, of 
course, companies can just ignore the request for privacy or even see it as a 
challenge.  

Individuals 'rights' versus corporate profits.  Which tends to win these days? 
 

Outside of the USA such things are normal and common-place and have been going 
on for centuries.  Occasionally one country or other produces a piece of paper 
that claims individuals have rights but those usually turn out to be business 
as usual fairly quickly or even plummet into an even worse situation for some 
time.  
Regards from  
Tom :)  







 From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster webmas...@krackedpress.com
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Thursday, 11 July 2013, 12:58
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 


hipiers.com does not send out spam emails, or it should not since the 
owner of the domain is against spam as much as we are.

I do not know anything about Scrivener or its web site.

Did you do a Google or Amazon search for writer info, a book search,  
or some other one that might make you think you are a writer of some 
type of book or manual?  If you did, you may have triggered a 
advertisement from
 Amazon.

When I look at my weather site, it displays advertisement based on my 
searches on Amazon, Google, and even Tigerdirect.com [computer and 
electronics web store].

Of course, you could always use the Private Window option in Mozilla 
Firefox to reduce your web footprint and not give, the web sites you 
visit, your info that is stored in your bowser, such as email address 
and other things you do not want given out.  Every browser I know of has 
personal information stored in it.  The trick is to make your browser 
not have this info available to the sites you visit.  Firefox has the 
private window option. [File  New Private Window].




On 07/11/2013 06:56 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
 Okay, this is really spooky, or I'm just growing paranoid.

 Two days ago, I downloaded Scrivener. Yesterday, I clicked on the 
 hipiers link suggested
 below.

 Today, I receive an email from Amazon suggesting I buy the book, 
 Writers Tune-up Manual.

 Virgil

 -Original Message- From: Kracked_P_P---webmaster
 Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2013 9:08 AM
 To: users@global.libreoffice.org
 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

 On 07/10/2013 08:37 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:
 Urmas wrote:

 The tool that you use does not matter. Everything thay you write 
 will be decomposed and virtually remade in the DTP program, most 
 likely InDesign.

 You may be right if the project goes to a professional publisher for 
 final output. But, Pablo's original question stated he would be 
 creating a self
 published, free ebook. Pablo is apparently looking 
 for a solution that *avoids* the need to present his book to a 
 professional publisher.

 Virgil


 The poster might want to look at this page.

 http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html

 In the list, there is information about some publishers and services,
 with some references to e-book self publishing.  IT might be worth a 
 look.

 If the poster wants to make money on a self-published e-book, then there
 may be some good information there to guide through the process.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-11 Thread rost52

As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all and set styles to Default. Then
create the styles I wanted and reformat the whole document.

On 12.07.2013 01:17, Wolfgang Keller wrote:

For example, several years ago, my 14 year old son challenged himself
to type a 50,000 word novel in November, which is National Novel
Writers Month. He met his goal, and quickly dropped the project.

As a proud papa, I wanted to put his document to paper. He wrote the
original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray
tabs, carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter
and section headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page
novel using WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long
for me to realize it would take days and days to wade through all of
the formatting codes inserted by WP.

I have to say that unlike MS Word and its clones OO and LO, Wordperfect
*does* allow proper use of styles for structure markup. Among the
dozens of different document processing applications I have used over
the past 25 years, Wordperfect was one of the best for authoring
strongly structured documents, at par with Framemaker. Unfortunately it
fell into the hands of an incompentent company (at Corel).

Obivously, nothing (besides Indesign with a *competent* typographer
in front of it) beats the typographic output of LyX/LaTeX, so if you
want to produce a PDF ready for print, there's no other choice. I even
use it for letters.

Until they get redesigned to implement a proper structure markup

style concept and correct typographic features (all line- and
page-breaking algorithms from LaTeX are open-source), LO and OO have
their value mostly for generating documents from databases.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-11 Thread Jack Wallen



On 07/11/2013 10:00 PM, rost52 wrote:
As a proud papa... I would open the document in Writer, select all 
and set styles to Default. Then create the styles I wanted and 
reformat the whole document.


On 12.07.2013 01:17, Wolfgang Keller wrote:





I'll reiterate this again -- if you're self publishing (and you intend 
on doing so with Amazon, BN, Smashwords, KOBO, etc... you will have to 
convert whatever file you create into .mobi or .epub format. The best 
tool for that task is Calibre. And the best way to do that is to save a 
doc as an .html file (in LO), import it into Calibre, and then covert 
it. That's what I've done for every novel I've published.


--
*Jack Wallen*|The Zombie King
Get on the Dark Hayride at Get Jack'd
Author of the I Zombie, Fringe Killers, The Nameless, and Shero series 
of books


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-10 Thread Virgil Arrington


Urmas wrote:

The tool that you use does not matter. Everything thay you write will be 
decomposed and virtually remade in the DTP program, most likely InDesign.


You may be right if the project goes to a professional publisher for final 
output. But, Pablo's original question stated he would be creating a self 
published, free ebook. Pablo is apparently looking for a solution that 
*avoids* the need to present his book to a professional publisher.


Virgil 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-10 Thread Kracked_P_P---webmaster


On 07/10/2013 08:37 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

Urmas wrote:

The tool that you use does not matter. Everything thay you write will 
be decomposed and virtually remade in the DTP program, most likely 
InDesign.


You may be right if the project goes to a professional publisher for 
final output. But, Pablo's original question stated he would be 
creating a self published, free ebook. Pablo is apparently looking 
for a solution that *avoids* the need to present his book to a 
professional publisher.


Virgil



The poster might want to look at this page.

http://www.hipiers.com/publishing.html

In the list, there is information about some publishers and services, 
with some references to e-book self publishing.  IT might be worth a look.


If the poster wants to make money on a self-published e-book, then there 
may be some good information there to guide through the process.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
The Docs Team use Writer for all their guides.  They do also have brief notes / 
summaries outside of whichever guide they are writing and do use their mailing 
list to help get consensus about side-issues.  Getting involved there might 
help you learn tricks or at least see the process.  
Regards from 
Tom :)  






 From: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Monday, 8 July 2013, 22:51
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

On 08/07/2013 at 22:58, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:

 but to 
 me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square 
 peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the labor involved may not 
 be worth it.

I think you merge two totally different ideas: writing a book and publishing a 
book.

As for writing, Writer and LaTeX are pretty much comparable - they both sucks. 
They do not provide basic tools needed for writers, such as character 
descriptions (were her eyes blue or green?) or detailed outline of story (this 
is different than outline of chapters). Of course you can overcome it with 
nice 
note-taking app, custom wiki or organized papers, but in some other programs 
you do not have to.

As for publishing (making it look beautiful), LaTeX classes and forced 
separation of structure and look usually provides better defaults than Writer. 
Agreed.

But then, we talk about defaults. It's not like you can't change them. 
If you learn your tools and think in advance, create decent-looking long 
document in Writer can be done with little hassle.

I have created and edited some long (100+ pages) documents in Writer and never 
seen anything in LaTeX that would be a dealbreaker for me. If anywhere, I 
would go to full-fledged DTP suite such as Adobe InDesign.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
When i first started using Writer i found i struggled against the software 
quite a bit.  Often people try something new unaware of the baggage they bring 
with them (such as bad habits learned through years of using other products) 
and somehow keep managing to find unsuitable work-flows that do make it more 
difficult than it needs to be.  

It's like watching someone that is scared of the water splashing about and 
fighting (and failing) to stay on top.  If you are now a good swimmer can you 
remember the first time you laid back and relaxed and found that human beings 
are naturally bouyant?  That only small minimal strokes of your arms almost 
parallel to the surface are far more effective at keeping you above water than 
updown strokes.  For me it took a  huge wrench in my mind.  Other people 
seemed to find it easy.  

I have taught Word as part of ECDL and other courses and people generally think 
i am extremely proficient with it, at least until MSO 2007, but i often found 
that other people's documents were a nightmare to beat into shape.  Even a tiny 
change often threw up some unexpected formatting tangle that they had somehow 
managed to root deep into their document.  Also old documents written with 
previous versions often came out all wrong.  

With LibreOffice it is much easier to get a good looking result that behaves 
itself.  However if you do fight against it all the time then maybe you do need 
to either 
1.  Read up on documentation and adjust to the software and/or  
2.  Experiment and play with documents created by other people to see how they 
did it and/or
3.  Experiment and play around with different ways of doing things.  See if you 
have any baggage or bad habits that you can break-down to simplify your 
work-flow
Otherwise, if you are always struggling against the flow then you really are 
better off with something that does suite you.  


First time i used LO to do a ToC it was a major pain.  2nd time (and from then 
on) i found it amazingly easy.  That first time i did mess around with all 
sorts of aspects of it to work out how to beat it into submission.  Eventually 
i worked out how to use it rather than to fight against it.  Now it's 
incredibly easy.  Even after a radical change i just right-click and choose 
update and it fixes itself.  Simples ;)

Regards from 
Tom :)  







 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl; users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013, 1:29
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

Miroslaw,

You're right; I did merge *writing* and *publishing*. To that end, let me 
muddy the waters even more by mentioning yWriter, a software program designed 
specifically and solely for writing novels with many of the tools you suggest. 
The frustration that I've found is that there are some publishing (or 
formatting) tasks that are best handled completely separate from writing, such 
as page layout, font selection, table of contents generation, etc. However, I 
find other formatting tasks are better handled on the fly while typing, such 
as applying italics to a word. Sometimes, I find seeing the paragraph layout 
onscreen helpful to organizing my thoughts, which of course you won't see with 
a strict text editor or pure LaTeX editor. At least LyX helps by showing some 
formatting onscreen.

Anytime I use a program like yWriter, I end up spending a lot of time later 
applying formatting that I could have applied on the fly with a decent word 
processor. That may not be a concern for a person whose work will be 
published, and therefore formatted, by someone else, like a professional 
publishing house. But, the original poster mentioned self-publishing an e-book.

Virgil

-Original Message- From: Mirosław Zalewski
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 5:51 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

On 08/07/2013 at 22:58, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:

 but to
 me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square
 peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the labor involved may not
 be worth it.

I think you merge two totally different ideas: writing a book and publishing a
book.

As for writing, Writer and LaTeX are pretty much comparable - they both sucks.
They do not provide basic tools needed for writers, such as character
descriptions (were her eyes blue or green?) or detailed outline of story (this
is different than outline of chapters). Of course you can overcome it with nice
note-taking app, custom wiki or organized papers, but in some other programs
you do not have to.

As for publishing (making it look beautiful), LaTeX classes and forced
separation of structure and look usually provides better defaults than Writer.
Agreed.

But then, we talk about defaults. It's not like you can't change them.
If you learn your tools and think

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
The Docs Team have looked into ePub versions and have found some good tools to 
use.  Annoyingly i can't remember what they finally worked out was the best one 
so it would be really good if someone could ask them again.  Anyway, perhaps 
there is something even better now.  



In my previous posts i have been a bit annoyed that people who don't spend time 
getting to know the tool they are using then blame the tool.  In England there 
is a saying A poor workman always blames his tools.  Sometimes the square peg 
trying to fit the round hole is not the tool's fault.  It's all in the way the 
workman is misusing the tool.  However, i now see that Virgil has worked hard 
to get to grips with LO and has spent time experimenting and working with it 
and probably knows a lot more about doing larger works than me.  


Writer, Word and WordPerfect and others do seem to be designed for business 
letters and fairly short works.  LaTeX (and the various front-ends (such as 
LyX) that attempt to make it easier to use) do seem to have advantages for 
larger works but are more difficult to wrestle with in the beginning when you 
are learning how to use them.  Many people try and give up or find them a total 
nightmare.  However, people DO manage to use Writer to do larger books.  Piers 
Anthony, the famous sci-fi writer, mentions it in the preface to most of his 
books.  Also our Documentation Team.  Our Documentation Team have even 
published an ePub and since found an easier way of doing it.  We should be 
learning from them and gain from their experience.  



On the other hand if you have been able to learn how to use LaTeX then you 
probably do have a significant advantage because it is the right tool for the 
right job.  If LyX makes LaTeX easier then go for it.  

Regards from 
Tom :)  








 From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: users@global.libreoffice.org 
Sent: Monday, 8 July 2013, 21:58
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer
 

snip /

trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square peg 
into a round hole. 

snip /

In my mind, Writer is a business application, useful for letters, memos, legal 
documents, school reports, and the like. 

snip /

For organizing a book length document, with parts, chapters, and tables, 
indexes, and sub-documents, etc, I much prefer LyX and LaTeX, both of which 
are free and opensource. Yes, the LaTeX learning curve can be steep, but LyX 
makes it so much easier. 

snip /

He wrote the original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray 
tabs, carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter and section 
headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page novel using 
WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long for me to realize it 
would take days and days to wade through all of the formatting codes inserted 
by WP.

Instead, I  ... snip / ...  loaded it into LyX. snip /  The entire 
formatting process took about a half hour. I surprised even myself.

I could have done the same thing with LO's styles and master documents, but 
they're not quite as fully automatic as LyX/LaTeX, so it would have longer.

So far, however, I've found LyX/LaTeX's support for e-books to be a little 
lacking (but no more so than LO's). 

snip /

In short, while I love LO, I honestly think there are better tools for the 
task of book and e-book writing.

Virgil



2013.07.08. 7:34 keltezéssel, Pablo Dotro írta:
 Greetings!

snip /

 Does anyone know about a tutorial, book or website where I can 
 specifically learn about creating a book-length document, with chapters 
 (as subdocuments) and a master document, consistent styling, indexing and 
 table of contents with LibreOffice?

 Thank you very much for your time, and best regards,



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Ferand wrote,


 Virgil,


please stop this crap, LO and OO are the right tools to produce any 
document any form any size, only the lack of knowledge is a barrier .
All professional tools to produce a book are XML based like LO and OO, so 
start writing, use a simple style model , understood the OutputLevels, 
understood picture resolutions and go. Afterwards choose a tool  make a 
tranformation to deliver the work to a printer (PDF) or to a HTML 5/ Epub 
reader

Greetz


I noticed you didn't copy the list (a reply vs. reply all problem), but I'll 
include the list on my reply as I think it might be helpful. I'll grant that 
my suggesting other products on an LO users list may not be the best form, 
but I do think it proper to point out LO's limitations.


I fully agree that LO can produce any document any size. I fully agree that 
lack of knowledge can be a barrier (to *any* product, be it LO or LaTeX). 
But, I think your last line helps prove my point. You suggest writing in LO, 
and then picking *another* tool to transform the final product into PDF or 
Epub reader format. In so suggesting, you imply that LO is *not* the right 
tool to perform those tasks.


I was trying to suggest tools that could perform the entire project, from 
writing to publishing. The PDF output from LyX/LaTeX cannot be touched by 
*anything* that I know of (at least in the FOSS world). For example, LaTeX 
automatically, and by default, produces ligatures, those fi and fl 
combinations that are often found lacking today in professionally 
published books produced by word processors like LO or Word. The Microtype 
package is an absolute must for any proper output with justified margins, as 
it justifies an entire paragraph, not just lines, making small adjustments, 
not only between words, but *within* letters as well. LO's line by line 
justification looks hideous in comparison (yes, I'm a little OCD about these 
things). And, unless you use Linux Libertine as your typeface, you won't be 
able to get such professional effects as old style numbering or true small 
caps.


There was a day when proper justification, ligatures, and professional type 
effects were the expected norm in professionally designed books. But, today, 
so many publishing houses are simply accepting the output of word processors 
that it's becoming rare to find a properly designed book. The lack of 
professional output in computer generated books was the reason for the 
creation of TeX in the first place, some 35 years ago.


As far as the ebook format is concerned, nothing I've seen (again in 
cost-effective tools) can match the output of Atlantis.


Virgil 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Tom,

Actually, I have had very little struggle learning LO. I started back in the 
StarOffice days and haven’t looked back. I have just learned to keep LO in its 
place...as a business tool, not a tool for creative writing or desktop 
publishing.

You mention the Table of Contents. Yes, the first time I tried, I was 
mystified, but with practice, it’s become no big deal. But, like with most 
things in office suite software, you have to do a lot of adjusting, 
customizing, etc. to get what you want. With LaTeX, you simply type 
\tableofcontents in the place in your document where you want it to appear and, 
voila, you get it, fully formatted with the Table of Contents title properly 
typeset and in the right place. It’s even easier with the LyX front end. Two 
mouse clicks and it’s done.

Yes, LO is an extremely powerful tool and, yes, with education, you can produce 
book length documents with master documents, subdocuments, tables of contents, 
etc. But, as I mentioned in my response to Fernand, you will not be able to 
match the professional output of LaTeX, with its full-featured typeset effects, 
proper paragraph justification, etc.

But, as Pablo and I agree, LaTeX works best if you can accept its default 
formatting decisions. If you want to change them, you’ll have a bit of an 
education ahead of you. (And Pablo, you don’t have to create an entire document 
class to change the default settings; often just a few commands in the preamble 
are enough) So, either way, depending on the output you want, you have an 
education ahead of you. Either learn LO’s master document/table of contents 
system, or learn how to make some changes to LaTeX’s default settings.

Virgil

From: Tom Davies 
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 5:27 AM
To: Virgil Arrington ; Mirosław Zalewski ; users@global.libreoffice.org 
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Hi :)
When i first started using Writer i found i struggled against the software 
quite a bit.  Often people try something new unaware of the baggage they bring 
with them (such as bad habits learned through years of using other products) 
and somehow keep managing to find unsuitable work-flows that do make it more 
difficult than it needs to be.  

It's like watching someone that is scared of the water splashing about and 
fighting (and failing) to stay on top.  If you are now a good swimmer can you 
remember the first time you laid back and relaxed and found that human beings 
are naturally bouyant?  That only small minimal strokes of your arms almost 
parallel to the surface are far more effective at keeping you above water than 
updown strokes.  For me it took a huge wrench in my mind.  Other people seemed 
to find it easy.  

I have taught Word as part of ECDL and other courses and people generally think 
i am extremely proficient with it, at least until MSO 2007, but i often found 
that other people's documents were a nightmare to beat into shape.  Even a tiny 
change often threw up some unexpected formatting tangle that they had somehow 
managed to root deep into their document.  Also old documents written with 
previous versions often came out all wrong.  

With LibreOffice it is much easier to get a good looking result that behaves 
itself.  However if you do fight against it all the time then maybe you do need 
to either 
1.  Read up on documentation and adjust to the software and/or  
2.  Experiment and play with documents created by other people to see how they 
did it and/or
3.  Experiment and play around with different ways of doing things.  See if you 
have any baggage or bad habits that you can break-down to simplify your 
work-flow
Otherwise, if you are always struggling against the flow then you really are 
better off with something that does suite you.  


First time i used LO to do a ToC it was a major pain.  2nd time (and from then 
on) i found it amazingly easy.  That first time i did mess around with all 
sorts of aspects of it to work out how to beat it into submission.  Eventually 
i worked out how to use it rather than to fight against it.  Now it's 
incredibly easy.  Even after a radical change i just right-click and choose 
update and it fixes itself.  Simples ;)

Regards from 
Tom :)  







--
  From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
  To: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl; users@global.libreoffice.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013, 1:29
  Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


  Miroslaw,

  You're right; I did merge *writing* and *publishing*. To that end, let me 
muddy the waters even more by mentioning yWriter, a software program designed 
specifically and solely for writing novels with many of the tools you suggest. 
The frustration that I've found is that there are some publishing (or 
formatting) tasks that are best handled completely separate from writing, such 
as page layout, font selection, table

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Jack Wallen


Sorry, my original reply went off list.

On 07/09/2013 12:10 AM, Pablo Dotro wrote:




I thank you for your time and effort. I would prefer to stick to using 
LO... I seriously considered turning to LaTeX, but I truly feel a 
little overwhelmed with the amount of learning I would need to do in 
order to reach the same formatting proficiency I have with a standard 
word processor.

Best regards,



I've written fourteen books and used LO for every one. Now I write 
fiction, so I my books don't tend to use complicated layouts. The 
important thing to understand is that you will need to use a tool like 
Calibre to covert the LO-generated HTML file to .mobi and .epub. With 
Calibre you can generate a TOC and the like.


Hope that helps.

Jack

--
*Jack Wallen*|The Zombie King
Get on the Dark Hayride at Get Jack'd
Author of the I Zombie, Fringe Killers, The Nameless, and Shero series 
of books


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Getting back to Pablo's original question, he asked about using master 
documents with sub-documents for each chapter. This is, in fact, the model 
used by many systems, from LaTeX to yWriter, as well as LO.


But, I'm wondering how necessary it really is. The purpose of the master 
document/subdocument system is to keep track of your document, where you may 
be at a given place and time. But, LO's navigator tool offers much of the 
same functionality without having to split your document up into many 
different files. With the navigator, you can jump from point to point within 
a single document based on headings, bookmarks, etc.


Depending on the size of the book, and your need to work on several 
different sections of it at the same time, just using the navigator as 
opposed to master documents could save yourself a lot of education time and 
headaches. For me, the biggest headache with master documents comes when I'm 
proofreading the master and find I want to make a small change. I hit a 
keystroke and am immediately reminded that all editing must take place 
within the subdocuments.


Virgil 



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Jack,

Just curious. Do you use LO's master document system for your books?

Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Jack Wallen

Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2013 7:12 AM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

Sorry, my original reply went off list.

On 07/09/2013 12:10 AM, Pablo Dotro wrote:




I thank you for your time and effort. I would prefer to stick to using 
LO... I seriously considered turning to LaTeX, but I truly feel a little 
overwhelmed with the amount of learning I would need to do in order to 
reach the same formatting proficiency I have with a standard word 
processor.

Best regards,



I've written fourteen books and used LO for every one. Now I write
fiction, so I my books don't tend to use complicated layouts. The
important thing to understand is that you will need to use a tool like
Calibre to covert the LO-generated HTML file to .mobi and .epub. With
Calibre you can generate a TOC and the like.

Hope that helps.

Jack

--
*Jack Wallen*|The Zombie King
Get on the Dark Hayride at Get Jack'd
Author of the I Zombie, Fringe Killers, The Nameless, and Shero series
of books

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deleted



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Kracked_P_P---webmaster



Here is a resend of a reply that seemed not to get to the system, so I 
have been told.


On 07/08/2013 06:32 PM, Kracked_P_P---webmaster wrote:

On 07/08/2013 05:51 PM, Mirosław Zalewski wrote:

On 08/07/2013 at 22:58, Virgil Arringtoncuyfa...@hotmail.com  wrote:


but to
me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square
peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the labor involved may not
be worth it.

I think you merge two totally different ideas: writing a book and publishing a
book.

As for writing, Writer and LaTeX are pretty much comparable - they both sucks.
They do not provide basic tools needed for writers, such as character
descriptions (were her eyes blue or green?) or detailed outline of story (this
is different than outline of chapters). Of course you can overcome it with nice
note-taking app, custom wiki or organized papers, but in some other programs
you do not have to.

As for publishing (making it look beautiful), LaTeX classes and forced
separation of structure and look usually provides better defaults than Writer.
Agreed.

But then, we talk about defaults. It's not like you can't change them.
If you learn your tools and think in advance, create decent-looking long
document in Writer can be done with little hassle.

I have created and edited some long (100+ pages) documents in Writer and never
seen anything in LaTeX that would be a dealbreaker for me. If anywhere, I
would go to full-fledged DTP suite such as Adobe InDesign.


I know of at least one very successful author that uses LO on an Linux 
PC to write all of his books.  Piers Anthony.  He is getting into the 
late 70's but he went from StarOffice to OpenOffice.org, to finally 
LibreOffice.


When he move to OOo, he was writing 3 to 5 books a year.  With age and 
his wife's health issues, he does not have as much time to write.  So 
I see maybe 2 or more books [paperback novels] a year now, plus the 
odd novella as well.


For all of the work he does, he makes good use of macros. That was one 
of the big issues with his previous packages till he got to OOo.


SO for writing books with LO, it can be done and be profitable for a 
author.


As for publishing books, well it all depends on what you want in the 
book.  If you have to do a lot of graphics and images withing the 
pages, with complex text flow formatting like in some text books, then 
maybe LO might not be the best idea for the final layout work of such 
a book.  A FULL desktop publishing package with all of the 
bells-and-whistles would do the job easier.  But for writing books for 
reading entertainment, and not for educational text books, LO would 
work well for most needs.


Of course, if you need to look into self-publishing, then Piers 
Anthony's official web site has a lot of references in that 
department.  [ hipiers.com ]  He wanted to have some good reference 
material for writers to have an easier time than he did when starting 
out.

.








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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Kracked_P_P---webmaster


On 07/09/2013 07:27 AM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

Ferand wrote,


 Virgil,


please stop this crap, LO and OO are the right tools to produce any 
document any form any size, only the lack of knowledge is a barrier .
All professional tools to produce a book are XML based like LO and 
OO, so start writing, use a simple style model , understood the 
OutputLevels, understood picture resolutions and go. Afterwards 
choose a tool  make a tranformation to deliver the work to a printer 
(PDF) or to a HTML 5/ Epub reader

Greetz


I noticed you didn't copy the list (a reply vs. reply all problem), 
but I'll include the list on my reply as I think it might be helpful. 
I'll grant that my suggesting other products on an LO users list may 
not be the best form, but I do think it proper to point out LO's 
limitations.


I fully agree that LO can produce any document any size. I fully agree 
that lack of knowledge can be a barrier (to *any* product, be it LO or 
LaTeX). But, I think your last line helps prove my point. You suggest 
writing in LO, and then picking *another* tool to transform the final 
product into PDF or Epub reader format. In so suggesting, you imply 
that LO is *not* the right tool to perform those tasks.


I was trying to suggest tools that could perform the entire project, 
from writing to publishing. The PDF output from LyX/LaTeX cannot be 
touched by *anything* that I know of (at least in the FOSS world). For 
example, LaTeX automatically, and by default, produces ligatures, 
those fi and fl combinations that are often found lacking today in 
professionally published books produced by word processors like LO 
or Word. The Microtype package is an absolute must for any proper 
output with justified margins, as it justifies an entire paragraph, 
not just lines, making small adjustments, not only between words, but 
*within* letters as well. LO's line by line justification looks 
hideous in comparison (yes, I'm a little OCD about these things). And, 
unless you use Linux Libertine as your typeface, you won't be able to 
get such professional effects as old style numbering or true small caps.


There was a day when proper justification, ligatures, and professional 
type effects were the expected norm in professionally designed books. 
But, today, so many publishing houses are simply accepting the output 
of word processors that it's becoming rare to find a properly designed 
book. The lack of professional output in computer generated books was 
the reason for the creation of TeX in the first place, some 35 years ago.


As far as the ebook format is concerned, nothing I've seen (again in 
cost-effective tools) can match the output of Atlantis.


Virgil



I use LO to export my work to a PDF document that would work well on my 
tablets.  All I needed to do is format the page size to the proper one 
that works best for tablet reading.  I choose something along the page 
size used for paper-back books.  So I format the page to about 4 by 7 
inches, with a small margin size.  Then I export it to a PDF file.  Of 
course, if I want to create an ePub document format instead, for Kindle 
or Nook, then I use an external package called Calibre.  I run it on a 
Ubuntu/Linux system, but it come in Windows as well. [if I remember 
correctly]


I also can save the book file via printing to CUPS-PDF and making sure 
that my exact fonts are embedded properly.  LO 4.1.x release notes shows 
the embed font as a checkbox option.


There use to be an extension to export to ePub, but I do not know if it 
is a good one or not.


SO, for my needs, I take free books that are in .txt or other formats 
and use LO and its page formatting to convert them into a document or 
book that works well for either my 7 inch or 9 inch tablets.  For 
Ligatures, well there are fonts that can be used that have those 
glyph/letter combinations available.  But I never saw the need to use 
them.  I just choose a font that works well for reading as an eBook or 
printed one.  There are fonts specifically created for their readability 
for books.  Most text books tend to use such fonts, as well as physical 
books you buy.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Paul D. Mirowsky


Couldn't agree more.

I've found the best way to start is write short document consisting of 
all the parts you need.

Learn the appropriate Writer terms and functions.
Get everything to format properly down to the last little item.

Save your template and your good to go.

By the time your done with it, you'll understand your own created 
format, that it becomes second nature.


Then write your book.

The longest document I've done was 64 pages from and old Lotus Wordpro 
that I had to totally redo in Writer.


I am pretty happy with the results.

Hope this helps.

On 7/9/2013 5:27 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
When i first started using Writer i found i struggled against the software 
quite a bit.  Often people try something new unaware of the baggage they bring 
with them (such as bad habits learned through years of using other products) 
and somehow keep managing to find unsuitable work-flows that do make it more 
difficult than it needs to be.

It's like watching someone that is scared of the water splashing about and fighting 
(and failing) to stay on top.  If you are now a good swimmer can you remember the 
first time you laid back and relaxed and found that human beings are naturally 
bouyant?  That only small minimal strokes of your arms almost parallel to the 
surface are far more effective at keeping you above water than updown strokes. 
 For me it took a  huge wrench in my mind.  Other people seemed to find it easy.

I have taught Word as part of ECDL and other courses and people generally think 
i am extremely proficient with it, at least until MSO 2007, but i often found 
that other people's documents were a nightmare to beat into shape.  Even a tiny 
change often threw up some unexpected formatting tangle that they had somehow 
managed to root deep into their document.  Also old documents written with 
previous versions often came out all wrong.

With LibreOffice it is much easier to get a good looking result that behaves 
itself.  However if you do fight against it all the time then maybe you do need 
to either
1.  Read up on documentation and adjust to the software and/or
2.  Experiment and play with documents created by other people to see how they 
did it and/or
3.  Experiment and play around with different ways of doing things.  See if you 
have any baggage or bad habits that you can break-down to simplify your 
work-flow
Otherwise, if you are always struggling against the flow then you really are 
better off with something that does suite you.


First time i used LO to do a ToC it was a major pain.  2nd time (and from then on) i found it 
amazingly easy.  That first time i did mess around with all sorts of aspects of it to work out how 
to beat it into submission.  Eventually i worked out how to use it rather than to fight against it. 
 Now it's incredibly easy.  Even after a radical change i just right-click and choose 
update and it fixes itself.  Simples ;)

Regards from
Tom :)








From: Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com
To: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl; users@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013, 1:29
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Miroslaw,

You're right; I did merge *writing* and *publishing*. To that end, let me muddy 
the waters even more by mentioning yWriter, a software program designed 
specifically and solely for writing novels with many of the tools you suggest. 
The frustration that I've found is that there are some publishing (or 
formatting) tasks that are best handled completely separate from writing, such 
as page layout, font selection, table of contents generation, etc. However, I 
find other formatting tasks are better handled on the fly while typing, such as 
applying italics to a word. Sometimes, I find seeing the paragraph layout 
onscreen helpful to organizing my thoughts, which of course you won't see with 
a strict text editor or pure LaTeX editor. At least LyX helps by showing some 
formatting onscreen.

Anytime I use a program like yWriter, I end up spending a lot of time later 
applying formatting that I could have applied on the fly with a decent word 
processor. That may not be a concern for a person whose work will be published, 
and therefore formatted, by someone else, like a professional publishing house. 
But, the original poster mentioned self-publishing an e-book.

Virgil

-Original Message- From: Mirosław Zalewski
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 5:51 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

On 08/07/2013 at 22:58, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:


but to
me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square
peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the labor involved may not
be worth it.

I think you merge two totally different ideas: writing a book and publishing a
book.

As for writing, Writer and LaTeX are pretty much comparable - they both sucks.
They do

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Marc Grober

On 7/9/13 2:12 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

 Writer, Word and WordPerfect and others do seem to be designed for business 
 letters and fairly short works.  LaTeX (and the various front-ends (such as 
 LyX) that attempt to make it easier to use) do seem to have advantages for 
 larger works but are more difficult to wrestle with in the beginning when you 
 are learning how to use them.  Many people try and give up or find them a 
 total nightmare.  However, people DO manage to use Writer to do larger books. 
  Piers Anthony, the famous sci-fi writer, mentions it in the preface to most 
 of his books.  Also our Documentation Team.  Our Documentation Team have even 
 published an ePub and since found an easier way of doing it.  We should be 
 learning from them and gain from their experience.  


I have heard rave reviews about Scrivener,  but was not impressed when I
looked at it,  but then I don't usually write books..  It looked
very robust and comprehensive, but a bit complex as far as setting up
your templates,  but I suppose the same can be said of writer.

There is also a latex lab for google docs which I have played with if
you want to be that granular

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Kracked_P_P wrote:

I use LO to export my work to a PDF document that would work well on my 
tablets.  All I needed to do is format the page size to the proper one that 
works best for tablet reading.  I choose something along the page size used 
for paper-back books.  So I format the page to about 4 by 7 inches, with a 
small margin size.  Then I export it to a PDF file.  Of course, if I want 
to create an ePub document format instead, for Kindle or Nook, then I use 
an external package called Calibre.  I run it on a Ubuntu/Linux system, 
but it come in Windows as well. [if I remember correctly]


I've done the same thing by formatting the page size of a PDF file to fit my 
Kindle screen. Of course, with PDF, you lose a lot of the functionality of 
the Kindle (or Nook), such as scalable fonts and the continuous flow of text 
without page breaks, etc. For that, you need the e-book formats (Mobi for 
Kindle, Epub for Nook). This is where my OCD kicks in for I've found that 
most programs, such as LO, and even LyX and Markdown, lose some formatting 
in the translation to HTML, which is the basis of Epub. Of all the programs 
I've tried, Atlantis does the best job of retaining my formatting and it 
exports directly to Epub and Mobi formats. I've used Calibre and find it 
really good, but again, my results have been spotty. So far, I haven't been 
able to get a good conversion of a PDF to Mobi with Calibre (maybe it's user 
error on my part). There's a lot to Calibre and I haven't fully explored it 
yet.



SO, for my needs, I take free books that are in .txt or other formats and 
use LO and its page formatting to convert them into a document or book that 
works well for either my 7 inch or 9 inch tablets.


I do the same with Atlantis and export directly to Epub and Mobi formats.

For Ligatures, well there are fonts that can be used that have those 
glyph/letter combinations available.  But I never saw the need to use them. 
I just choose a font that works well for reading as an eBook or printed 
one.  There are fonts specifically created for their readability for books. 
Most text books tend to use such fonts, as well as physical books you buy.


If you're saving to an e-book format, ligatures aren't necessary, nor is 
margin justification or true typographic features. But, if you're going to 
print that puppy, you want it to have all the typographic excellence you can 
get and, right now at least, that excellence is lacking with typical word 
processors. For print excellence, you can't beat LaTeX.


Virgil


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Toki Kantoor

On 07/09/2013 12:05 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

 But, LO's navigator tool offers much of the same functionality without having 
 to split your document up into
 many different files. With the navigator, you can jump from point to
 point within a single document based on headings, bookmarks, etc.

With documents of under 500 pages, less than 100 images, and less than
100 tables, MasterDocuments may not be worthwhile.

With documents of 5,000+ pages, several thousand images, several
thousand tables, and assorted other objects, system performance takes a
nose-dive, when MasterDocuments are not used.

Note:  The biggest issue/bug with 5,000+ page documents, is that LibO
has (¿had?) a limit of 2^64 style changes per document.

jonathon
-- 
LibreOffice in a Multi-Lingual Environment.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-09 Thread Kracked_P_P---webmaster


On 07/09/2013 03:48 PM, Virgil Arrington wrote:

Kracked_P_P wrote:

I use LO to export my work to a PDF document that would work well on 
my tablets.  All I needed to do is format the page size to the proper 
one that works best for tablet reading.  I choose something along the 
page size used for paper-back books.  So I format the page to about 4 
by 7 inches, with a small margin size.  Then I export it to a PDF 
file.  Of course, if I want to create an ePub document format 
instead, for Kindle or Nook, then I use an external package called 
Calibre.  I run it on a Ubuntu/Linux system, but it come in Windows 
as well. [if I remember correctly]


I've done the same thing by formatting the page size of a PDF file to 
fit my Kindle screen. Of course, with PDF, you lose a lot of the 
functionality of the Kindle (or Nook), such as scalable fonts and the 
continuous flow of text without page breaks, etc. For that, you need 
the e-book formats (Mobi for Kindle, Epub for Nook). This is where my 
OCD kicks in for I've found that most programs, such as LO, and even 
LyX and Markdown, lose some formatting in the translation to HTML, 
which is the basis of Epub. Of all the programs I've tried, Atlantis 
does the best job of retaining my formatting and it exports directly 
to Epub and Mobi formats. I've used Calibre and find it really good, 
but again, my results have been spotty. So far, I haven't been able to 
get a good conversion of a PDF to Mobi with Calibre (maybe it's user 
error on my part). There's a lot to Calibre and I haven't fully 
explored it yet.



SO, for my needs, I take free books that are in .txt or other formats 
and use LO and its page formatting to convert them into a document or 
book that works well for either my 7 inch or 9 inch tablets.


I do the same with Atlantis and export directly to Epub and Mobi formats.

For Ligatures, well there are fonts that can be used that have those 
glyph/letter combinations available.  But I never saw the need to use 
them. I just choose a font that works well for reading as an eBook or 
printed one. There are fonts specifically created for their 
readability for books. Most text books tend to use such fonts, as 
well as physical books you buy.


If you're saving to an e-book format, ligatures aren't necessary, nor 
is margin justification or true typographic features. But, if you're 
going to print that puppy, you want it to have all the typographic 
excellence you can get and, right now at least, that excellence is 
lacking with typical word processors. For print excellence, you can't 
beat LaTeX.


Virgil




Yes, if you fix the page and font size to what works for you, then it 
may not be right for others.  Well, I still can take the TXT file and 
convert it to a ePub file.  But, the Calibre package [Ubuntu 12.04] and 
gives me both Nook and Kindle page formatting under the ePub exporting, 
for whatever reasons.  I have the ability to use both Kindle and Nook 
apps on both of my tablets, even though one is a Nook.  I have seen a 
Kindle app so you can read your Kindle books from your Amazon library 
on you Nook tablet.  I have not tried that, but my old tablet had the 
Kindle app on it and I was reading some books bought/downloaded from 
Amazon.  Mostly free ones though. Will see later if I can read them on 
my Nook..



For printed books, I still will go with the easy to read book fonts 
and some seem to not need the ligatures.  The only thing might be needed 
is some spacing options between words and letters for fully-justified 
text.  Jean Hollis Weber, our main documentation editor, can tell you 
how much a pain that can be to get the lines and paragraphs to look 
right with fully right and left justified text within a document.  
Hyphenation helps but not completely in that department.


Actually, I was looking at a new book and I was shocked that the printed 
paper-back book cost almost $5 LESS than the Nook and Kindle file 
version[s].  You would expect the printed book to cost more, and but not 
the e-book file to cost more.  Well, since some people claim printed 
books are dead, and no one would want to buy a printed copy, someone 
decided to make the e-book versions more expensive, so the publisher 
could make a really big profit.  I doubt the author is getting more 
money out of such a sale.  He would get the same income per book, no 
matter what the format; hard-cover, paper-back, or e-book.






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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-08 Thread Nagy Ákos


Hi,

I know this book:
http://www.openoffice.org/documentation/whitepapers/Creating_large_documents_with_OOo.odt
It's an old book, and is writed for OpenOffice, but the most important 
part is the same, and you can reuse in LibreOffice.


I know an another book for you, but it's exists only in Hungarian:
http://numbertext.org/libreoffice/libreoffice.pdf
is a hybrid PDF, the PDF file contains the source of the book in ODT 
format. Probably you don't understand it, but can see come stuff that 
can do with LibreOffice and Graphite technology.


2013.07.08. 7:34 keltezéssel, Pablo Dotro írta:

Greetings!

I am beginning a large writing project, that will most probably take 
the form of a self published, free ebook. And while I have created 
very long, complex documents before, I have never formatted them as a 
book.
Having been using word processing software for a living for the last 
15 years or so, I thought myself as power user enough to take the 
next step and try to create my document relying on Writer's features 
and not depending on someone else to typeset the material.
However, after reading both the Getting Started and the Writer 
Guide, I am convinced that it is possible. Heh, the mere existance of 
those books is proof enough ;-) But I find that there is a gap between 
the techniques described there for working with templates, styles and 
master documents... and the actual craft needed to make them work. A 
quick look to the odt files themselves convinced me of that.
So after some googling and a disappointint amazon search on books on 
this subject, I come here to rely on our collective knowledge, with a 
question:


Does anyone know about a tutorial, book or website where I can 
specifically learn about creating a book-lenght document, with 
chapters (as subdocuments) and a master document, consistent styling, 
indexing and table of contents with Libreoffice?


Thnk you very much for your time, and best regards,




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-08 Thread Marc Grober

I have seen quote a bit of argument against using a master document for
a book as I was exploring this subject just recently as well. The help
docs of course are a good place to start.
https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Master_Documents_and_Subdocuments

There are a number of different tools for moving from LO to epub. There
is the new eLAIX extension, Writer2epub, and you can also export as
docxml and then use pandoc which will create epub3 docs for you. I used
to use eScape but that is no longer supported, though it still works.
The folk at infogridpacific looked like they were going to move it to an
online service but it looks like that project was killed and that they
are concentrating on their Digital publisher solution.

On 7/8/13 5:44 AM, Nagy Ákos wrote:
Hi,

I know this book:
http://www.openoffice.org/documentation/whitepapers/Creating_large_documents_with_OOo.odt

It's an old book, and is writed for OpenOffice, but the most important
part is the same, and you can reuse in LibreOffice.

I know an another book for you, but it's exists only in Hungarian:
http://numbertext.org/libreoffice/libreoffice.pdf
is a hybrid PDF, the PDF file contains the source of the book in ODT
format. Probably you don't understand it, but can see come stuff that
can do with LibreOffice and Graphite technology.

2013.07.08. 7:34 keltezéssel, Pablo Dotro írta:
Greetings!

I am beginning a large writing project, that will most probably take
the form of a self published, free ebook. And while I have created
very long, complex documents before, I have never formatted them as a
book.
Having been using word processing software for a living for the last
15 years or so, I thought myself as power user enough to take the
next step and try to create my document relying on Writer's features
and not depending on someone else to typeset the material.
However, after reading both the Getting Started and the Writer
Guide, I am convinced that it is possible. Heh, the mere existance
of those books is proof enough ;-) But I find that there is a gap
between the techniques described there for working with templates,
styles and master documents... and the actual craft needed to make
them work. A quick look to the odt files themselves convinced me of
that.
So after some googling and a disappointint amazon search on books on
this subject, I come here to rely on our collective knowledge, with a
question:

Does anyone know about a tutorial, book or website where I can
specifically learn about creating a book-lenght document, with
chapters (as subdocuments) and a master document, consistent styling,
indexing and table of contents with Libreoffice?

Thnk you very much for your time, and best regards,

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-08 Thread Virgil Arrington

I'll probably be (justifiably) ostracized for this on a LO user list, but to 
me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square 
peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the labor involved may not 
be worth it. In my mind, Writer is a business application, useful for 
letters, memos, legal documents, school reports, and the like. While I love 
working with LO's styles (which would be essential for book writing), I find 
LO's implementation of master documents to be too involved and clunky for my 
taste.


For organizing a book length document, with parts, chapters, and tables, 
indexes, and sub-documents, etc, I much prefer LyX and LaTeX, both of which 
are free and opensource. Yes, the LaTeX learning curve can be steep, but LyX 
makes it so much easier. You can type away and let the computer do the 
formatting, just by selecting the Book class. Unlike the business oriented 
LO, LyX and LaTeX were created specifically for making long documents such 
as books. Round hole, round peg. The biggest drawback is that changing 
default formatting settings can be daunting for the uninitiated. But, if you 
accept the defaults, you'll still have a beautifully formatted book with 
*much* less effort than you would with LO.


For example, several years ago, my 14 year old son challenged himself to 
type a 50,000 word novel in November, which is National Novel Writers Month. 
He met his goal, and quickly dropped the project.


As a proud papa, I wanted to put his document to paper. He wrote the 
original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray tabs, 
carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter and section 
headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page novel using 
WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long for me to realize it 
would take days and days to wade through all of the formatting codes 
inserted by WP.


Instead, I saved the document as a plain text file, stripping all 
formatting. I then loaded it into LyX. Using the Book class (think 
template), I applied Part and Chapter styles, (called environments in 
LaTeX speak) to the part and chapter titles, and then inserted a fully 
formatted, numbered, and typed table of contents with a couple mouse clicks. 
I set NO page formatting parameters such as page margins, page numbering, 
etc., as those were handled entirely by the Book class. I then compiled the 
book and had a fully formatted novel, complete with Title page, Table of 
Contents, properly formatted right and left hand pages with fully formatted 
headers with page numbers, etc. The entire formatting process took about a 
half hour. I surprised even myself.


I could have done the same thing with LO's styles and master documents, but 
they're not quite as fully automatic as LyX/LaTeX, so it would have longer.


So far, however, I've found LyX/LaTeX's support for e-books to be a little 
lacking (but no more so than LO's). For storing documents in an e-book 
format (whether Nook's Epub, or Kindle's MOBI), the best solution that I've 
found is Atlantis (a $35.00 shareware program). It is a Word clone word 
processor that supports direct export to Epub and MOBI with preservation of 
nearly all formatting. Every other solution I've tried (including LO, LyX, 
and Markdown editors) screws up formatting to some degree or another. 
Atlantis does 90% of what I need in a word processor, with the sole 
exception of tables.


In short, while I love LO, I honestly think there are better tools for the 
task of book and e-book writing.


Virgil



2013.07.08. 7:34 keltezéssel, Pablo Dotro írta:

Greetings!

I am beginning a large writing project, that will most probably take the 
form of a self published, free ebook. And while I have created very long, 
complex documents before, I have never formatted them as a book.
Having been using word processing software for a living for the last 15 
years or so, I thought myself as power user enough to take the next step 
and try to create my document relying on Writer's features and not 
depending on someone else to typeset the material.
However, after reading both the Getting Started and the Writer Guide, 
I am convinced that it is possible. Heh, the mere existance of those books 
is proof enough ;-) But I find that there is a gap between the techniques 
described there for working with templates, styles and master documents... 
and the actual craft needed to make them work. A quick look to the odt 
files themselves convinced me of that.
So after some googling and a disappointint amazon search on books on this 
subject, I come here to rely on our collective knowledge, with a question:


Does anyone know about a tutorial, book or website where I can 
specifically learn about creating a book-lenght document, with chapters 
(as subdocuments) and a master document, consistent styling, indexing and 
table of contents with Libreoffice?


Thnk you very much for your time, and best regards,




--
To

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-08 Thread Mirosław Zalewski

On 08/07/2013 at 22:58, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:

 but to 
 me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square 
 peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the labor involved may not 
 be worth it.

I think you merge two totally different ideas: writing a book and publishing a 
book.

As for writing, Writer and LaTeX are pretty much comparable - they both sucks. 
They do not provide basic tools needed for writers, such as character 
descriptions (were her eyes blue or green?) or detailed outline of story (this 
is different than outline of chapters). Of course you can overcome it with nice 
note-taking app, custom wiki or organized papers, but in some other programs 
you do not have to.

As for publishing (making it look beautiful), LaTeX classes and forced 
separation of structure and look usually provides better defaults than Writer. 
Agreed.

But then, we talk about defaults. It's not like you can't change them. 
If you learn your tools and think in advance, create decent-looking long 
document in Writer can be done with little hassle.

I have created and edited some long (100+ pages) documents in Writer and never 
seen anything in LaTeX that would be a dealbreaker for me. If anywhere, I 
would go to full-fledged DTP suite such as Adobe InDesign.
-- 
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

2013-07-08 Thread Virgil Arrington


Miroslaw,

You're right; I did merge *writing* and *publishing*. To that end, let me 
muddy the waters even more by mentioning yWriter, a software program 
designed specifically and solely for writing novels with many of the tools 
you suggest. The frustration that I've found is that there are some 
publishing (or formatting) tasks that are best handled completely separate 
from writing, such as page layout, font selection, table of contents 
generation, etc. However, I find other formatting tasks are better handled 
on the fly while typing, such as applying italics to a word. Sometimes, I 
find seeing the paragraph layout onscreen helpful to organizing my thoughts, 
which of course you won't see with a strict text editor or pure LaTeX 
editor. At least LyX helps by showing some formatting onscreen.


Anytime I use a program like yWriter, I end up spending a lot of time later 
applying formatting that I could have applied on the fly with a decent word 
processor. That may not be a concern for a person whose work will be 
published, and therefore formatted, by someone else, like a professional 
publishing house. But, the original poster mentioned self-publishing an 
e-book.


Virgil

-Original Message- 
From: Mirosław Zalewski

Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 5:51 PM
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer

On 08/07/2013 at 22:58, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:


but to
me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square
peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the labor involved may not
be worth it.


I think you merge two totally different ideas: writing a book and publishing 
a

book.

As for writing, Writer and LaTeX are pretty much comparable - they both 
sucks.

They do not provide basic tools needed for writers, such as character
descriptions (were her eyes blue or green?) or detailed outline of story 
(this
is different than outline of chapters). Of course you can overcome it with 
nice

note-taking app, custom wiki or organized papers, but in some other programs
you do not have to.

As for publishing (making it look beautiful), LaTeX classes and forced
separation of structure and look usually provides better defaults than 
Writer.

Agreed.

But then, we talk about defaults. It's not like you can't change them.
If you learn your tools and think in advance, create decent-looking long
document in Writer can be done with little hassle.

I have created and edited some long (100+ pages) documents in Writer and 
never

seen anything in LaTeX that would be a dealbreaker for me. If anywhere, I
would go to full-fledged DTP suite such as Adobe InDesign.
--
Best regards
Mirosław Zalewski

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Hello Virgil!

On 08/07/13 17:58, Virgil Arrington wrote:
I'll probably be (justifiably) ostracized for this on a LO user list, 
but to me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to 
force a square peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the 
labor involved may not be worth it. In my mind, Writer is a business 
application, useful for letters, memos, legal documents, school 
reports, and the like. While I love working with LO's styles (which 
would be essential for book writing), I find LO's implementation of 
master documents to be too involved and clunky for my taste.

Hehehe. Don't worry, I won't ostracize you.


For organizing a book length document, with parts, chapters, and 
tables, indexes, and sub-documents, etc, I much prefer LyX and LaTeX, 
both of which are free and opensource. Yes, the LaTeX learning curve 
can be steep, but LyX makes it so much easier. You can type away and 
let the computer do the formatting, just by selecting the Book class. 
Unlike the business oriented LO, LyX and LaTeX were created 
specifically for making long documents such as books. Round hole, 
round peg. The biggest drawback is that changing default formatting 
settings can be daunting for the uninitiated. But, if you accept the 
defaults, you'll still have a beautifully formatted book with *much* 
less effort than you would with LO.


I know... I am familiar with LaTeX and LyX. My day job is at the Physics 
Deptartment at a local Univesity, and we use them a lot for reports and 
papers. My problem is that I *do* want to give my document a distinctive 
visual format, with nice typography and so on... and writinf a LaTeX 
class or the LyX equivalent is beyond my skill level.
And since I am not that fluent with LaTeX (I've personally never wrote 
anything complex with it), I wanted to use a more point-and-click 
approach, to able to focus on my subject matter and not so much in 
learning new tools at the same time.
Another reason is that the small printing houses around here who may be 
able to do some small self publish job for me are all set up for files 
in PDF or MS Word .doc format. My experience with LaTeX to Word 
conversion is that the result is quite ugly.


For example, several years ago, my 14 year old son challenged himself 
to type a 50,000 word novel in November, which is National Novel 
Writers Month. He met his goal, and quickly dropped the project.


As a proud papa, I wanted to put his document to paper. He wrote the 
original in WordPerfect, and it was a formatting mess, with stray 
tabs, carriage returns, and inconsistent formatting across chapter and 
section headings. I began the task of reformatting his 127 page novel 
using WordPerfect, the original program. It didn't take long for me to 
realize it would take days and days to wade through all of the 
formatting codes inserted by WP.


Instead, I saved the document as a plain text file, stripping all 
formatting. I then loaded it into LyX. Using the Book class (think 
template), I applied Part and Chapter styles, (called environments 
in LaTeX speak) to the part and chapter titles, and then inserted a 
fully formatted, numbered, and typed table of contents with a couple 
mouse clicks. I set NO page formatting parameters such as page 
margins, page numbering, etc., as those were handled entirely by the 
Book class. I then compiled the book and had a fully formatted novel, 
complete with Title page, Table of Contents, properly formatted right 
and left hand pages with fully formatted headers with page numbers, 
etc. The entire formatting process took about a half hour. I surprised 
even myself.



Uh WP. That brings back memories ;-)
In that specific case, I too would have turned to LaTeX. And don't take 
me wrong, I fully appreciate the need to separate format from content in 
a project this size.


I could have done the same thing with LO's styles and master 
documents, but they're not quite as fully automatic as LyX/LaTeX, so 
it would have longer.


So far, however, I've found LyX/LaTeX's support for e-books to be a 
little lacking (but no more so than LO's). For storing documents in an 
e-book format (whether Nook's Epub, or Kindle's MOBI), the best 
solution that I've found is Atlantis (a $35.00 shareware program). It 
is a Word clone word processor that supports direct export to Epub and 
MOBI with preservation of nearly all formatting. Every other solution 
I've tried (including LO, LyX, and Markdown editors) screws up 
formatting to some degree or another. Atlantis does 90% of what I need 
in a word processor, with the sole exception of tables.


In short, while I love LO, I honestly think there are better tools for 
the task of book and e-book writing.


I thank you for your time and effort. I would prefer to stick to using 
LO... I seriously considered turning to LaTeX, but I truly feel a little 
overwhelmed with the amount of learning I would need to do in order to 
reach the same formatting proficiency I have

Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


Hi!

On 08/07/13 18:51, Mirosław Zalewski wrote:

On 08/07/2013 at 22:58, Virgil Arrington cuyfa...@hotmail.com wrote:


but to
me trying to write a book with LO Writer is like trying to force a square
peg into a round hole. Yes, it can be done, but the labor involved may not
be worth it.

I think you merge two totally different ideas: writing a book and publishing a
book.

As for writing, Writer and LaTeX are pretty much comparable - they both sucks.
They do not provide basic tools needed for writers, such as character
descriptions (were her eyes blue or green?) or detailed outline of story (this
is different than outline of chapters). Of course you can overcome it with nice
note-taking app, custom wiki or organized papers, but in some other programs
you do not have to.
Heh, you are right. Even if this is more of a technical writing project 
than a novel, None of these tools are really focused on the high level 
creative process. Both are tools for creating the output of said 
process. My approach is to keep detailed paper notes ;-)

As for publishing (making it look beautiful), LaTeX classes and forced
separation of structure and look usually provides better defaults than Writer.
Agreed.

But then, we talk about defaults. It's not like you can't change them.
If you learn your tools and think in advance, create decent-looking long
document in Writer can be done with little hassle.

I have created and edited some long (100+ pages) documents in Writer and never
seen anything in LaTeX that would be a dealbreaker for me. If anywhere, I
would go to full-fledged DTP suite such as Adobe InDesign.
That's my problem. I do not want LaTeX defaults. I want a distinctive 
format appealing to not only the geeky tech/science community, but to 
people who are not into technology. LaTeX produces beautiful output... 
but it's too serious for my target audience. The Right Thing to do, if 
this would have been a commercial or for-hire job, would be to hire a 
designer to use DTP tools and typeset my text. but it's not, and it's 
just me, so I am trying to get the most out of my experience and 
training ;-)
Anyway, thanks for trying to help. I really appreciate the response of 
the community :-)


--
Pablo M. Dotro
wiz...@elysium.com.arpdo...@df.uba.ar
pdo...@gmail.com Twitter: @Pablo_El_Mago
http://www.blog.elysium.com.ar


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


On 08/07/13 10:44, Nagy Ákos wrote:

Hi,

I know this book:
http://www.openoffice.org/documentation/whitepapers/Creating_large_documents_with_OOo.odt

It's an old book, and is writed for OpenOffice, but the most important
part is the same, and you can reuse in LibreOffice.

I know an another book for you, but it's exists only in Hungarian:
http://numbertext.org/libreoffice/libreoffice.pdf
is a hybrid PDF, the PDF file contains the source of the book in ODT
format. Probably you don't understand it, but can see come stuff that
can do with LibreOffice and Graphite technology.

You are right, Hungarian is not my thing hehehe. But I downloaded your 
first suggestion, and it's very informative. Thank you very much!
When this is over, if I manage to get it right, I will write a how-to 
document with my experience ;-)

Again, thanks for the references!

--
Pablo M. Dotro
wiz...@elysium.com.arpdo...@df.uba.ar
pdo...@gmail.com Twitter: @Pablo_El_Mago
http://www.blog.elysium.com.ar


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer


On 08/07/13 14:30, Marc Grober wrote:

I have seen quote a bit of argument against using a master document for
a book as I was exploring this subject just recently as well.  The help
docs of course are a good place to start.
https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Master_Documents_and_Subdocuments

There are a number of different tools for moving from LO to epub.  There
is the new eLAIX extension, Writer2epub, and you can also export as
docxml and then use pandoc which will create epub3 docs for you. I used
to use eScape but that is no longer supported, though it still works.
The folk at infogridpacific looked like they were going to move it to an
online service but it looks like that project was killed and that they
are concentrating on their Digital publisher solution.



Hi!
Thanks. I went through that. It's well written. It helped me to 
understand the concept. But It's a little shy on the actual practice. 
I've been experimenting with templates and a set of test documents, with 
mixed results.


I notice that master documents tend to elicit a love-hate relationship: 
some people think they are The Right Thing, others that they are worse 
than accepting a ring from Sauron hehehe. I had bad experiences dabbling 
with them in MS Word a few years ago, and I never touched them again.
I've also experienced that Writer is a lot more stable than MS Word when 
dealing with very long documents and complex formatting (embedded 
images, tables, crossreferences, etc.), but I never have used it for 
anything over 100-120 pages long.
I expect my current assignment to reach around 500 pages easily, with 
math, complex tables and so on. When I read the Writer's Guide, I came 
across the suggestion that a master document and chapter subdocuments 
where the preferred way to tackle long, complext texts. In any case, I 
am aware that I will need a lot of planning, careful styling and no 
direct formatting to make it work, either as a single file or using a 
master document.


As for publishing... I was thinking plain PDF export with no DRM. Epub 
is an interesting option. On the print side... small printing houses 
down here, the ones that accept material for self publishing, demand MS 
Word .doc format, so that was another reason for me to chose Writer 
instead of a full DTP or plain text format.

Anyway, thanks for the tips. I'll keep digging ;-)

--
Pablo M. Dotro
wiz...@elysium.com.arpdo...@df.uba.ar
pdo...@gmail.com Twitter: @Pablo_El_Mago
http://www.blog.elysium.com.ar


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Book-writing with Writer