subject:"Re\: \[libreoffice\-users\] Re\: Problems importing an OO database into LO"


On 20/04/2012 18:51, Alexander Thurgood wrote:

Check the permissions on your /software folder and also the permissions
on the hsqldb folder and any files in it. The jar file at least, needs
to have the executable bit set.


OK - one step at a time I guess

I checked the permissions on the three .jar files and found that the 'x' 
setting was not checked so I made them all wide-open. Now when I go to 
'Class Path' I can see them and select one.


(BTW - except for the one I put in in my 'software' folder the other two 
must have been put there by LO). I selected the one in 'software' (ver 
2.2.8 - hsqldb.jar)


As I now want to try the external-linked way of running Base I selected 
to Create a New Database'. Base opens but says .


a) I'm still using the embedded Database.
b) And I get an error box that says ...  The connection to the data 
source DB Name could not be established.
The driver class 'org.hsqldb.jdbcDriver' coud not be loaded. The 
additional driver class path is 
'vnd.sun.star.expand:$BRAND_BASE_DIR/program/classes/hsqldb.jar

vnd.sun.star.expand:$BRAND_BASE_DIR/program/classes/sdbc_hsqldb.jar'.

Some more assistance please!!!

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO


On 21/04/2012 10:48, Alexander Thurgood wrote:

1) Remove the links that you added to the Classpath parameter to :
/opt/libreoffice3.5/programs/classes/hsqldb.jar
/opt/libreoffice3.5/programs/classes/sdbc_hsqldb.jar

LO already knows where to find them. From what you describe as your
actions, you added them again to the classpath, and that is
possibly/probably what is causing LO to moan.

2) After removing the links to those files, restart LO.

3) Do not open your old ODB file in LO Base yet, i.e. the one you want
to migrate over to using the hsqldb2 engine.

4) Follow Andreas' instructions from point (3) onwards :

Thanks Alex. but 'No Go' I'm afraid!!!

I ONLY added the ONE path to the class like you say but I removed it and 
re-started LO and did it again. After another re-start I STILL get the 
same error message when I try to start a new Database.


I'm working this way because Base screwed-up my original DB so badly 
(which is why I decided to make a change). The original .odb file is 
such a mess. In looking for an alternative I've been working with Kexi 
and spent days correcting and editing my table in this program. It's 
very good but I have discovered a few flaws - the main one being a TOTAL 
LACK of support


So my plan is to get Base working with the external HSQLDB2 engine, 
recreate my Table layout and then export my corrected table from Kexi in 
.csv format and import it into the new Base layout. Hope you follow me.


Thanks for the kind help.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

In addition to what I wrote a couple of hours back - I have just tried a 
couple of other things...


I linked the class path to the two files mentioned in the Error Box. LO 
accepted both of them OK AND popped-up a box warning me to re-start LO 
and then worked fine. BUT both are linked to the embedded engine!!


I tried again with the 2.2.8 version and noticed I DO NOT get the 
warning box to re-start LO. And it gives me the error box as reported.


I then moved a copy of the .jre file to the same location as the first 
two and tried again - no change!!


This leaves me wondering if the .jre file is at fault. It's new, (I 
downloaded it yesterday), and is 1.4Mb in size??


Does this sound like a problem??

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO


On 21/04/2012 16:08, Andreas Säger wrote:

Am 21.04.2012 15:46, Ian Whitfield wrote:


This leaves me wondering if the .jre file is at fault. It's new, (I
downloaded it yesterday), and is 1.4Mb in size??



This is the md5sum of my working hsqldb-2.2.8.zip:
$ md5sum ~/download/hsqldb-2.2.8.zip
8b7668689cd208867c77f2f4d77922de  /home/andreas/download/hsqldb-2.2.8.zip


My copy gives me the same Check-Sum!!

So what can be causing the problem??

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-21 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
I almost hate to say it this late in the process but wouldn't a non-java 
back-end be better?  Java just seems to be a bit of a disaster these days, 
since Oracle took over.  Kexi uses Sqllite and there are surely other light 
back-ends that might be good to try?
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sat, 21/4/12, Ian Whitfield whitfi...@telkomsa.net wrote:

From: Ian Whitfield whitfi...@telkomsa.net
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Saturday, 21 April, 2012, 14:46

In addition to what I wrote a couple of hours back - I have just tried a couple 
of other things...

I linked the class path to the two files mentioned in the Error Box. LO 
accepted both of them OK AND popped-up a box warning me to re-start LO and then 
worked fine. BUT both are linked to the embedded engine!!

I tried again with the 2.2.8 version and noticed I DO NOT get the warning box 
to re-start LO. And it gives me the error box as reported.

I then moved a copy of the .jre file to the same location as the first two and 
tried again - no change!!

This leaves me wondering if the .jre file is at fault. It's new, (I downloaded 
it yesterday), and is 1.4Mb in size??

Does this sound like a problem??

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread MiguelAngel


El 20/04/12 1:18, Andreas Säger escribió:

Am 19.04.2012 20:45, Pertti Rönnberg wrote:


LibO-folks,

From this long and very interesting thread and some other discussions
on this mailing list too, together with my own recent experiences, there
is only one main conclusion to draw:

There is no real future forLibO's Base module, perhaps not for the whole
LibO suite.

From a non-expert user's perspective there are in fact two versions of
LibO-Base

A a Light-LibO-Base = a package consisting of LibO-Base as a
front-end GUI and an embedded db-engine HSQKDBv1.8. This package is
(could be) suitable for up to medium complex databases and be used by
'ordinary' people (like me) who does not have own skills in programming
or developing or in SQL or other languages (PHP, HTML, etc.) -- who
plainly want to create a database following instructions mechanically

B  an Advanced-LibO-Base = the LibO-Base module to be used as a
front-end GUI connected to an external db-engine and that can be used by
people with own knowledge in programming anddb-theories and SQL and who
have a good knowledge of the whole LibO's build-up,preferable in the
linux environment



I can hardly see any difference between A and B. The embedded HSQLDB
behaves exactly like an external DB. When you open the embedded
database document you actually _install_ an external HSQLDB and connect
the office suite to that _external_ database in cached mode (single user
on local machine) until you close the database document which
re-packages the external database.
IMHO, nobody needs to know anything about macro programming in order to
build useful database applications with Base. The vast majority of Base
macros are due to bad database design, save one or two clicks or they
are made to impress the boss.
There are plenty of macros for generic tasks. All the most desperately
wanted macros have been written already (clone records, refresh this and
that, open forms and reports, open text as hyperlink).
What I would describe as Base light is the ability to use
spreadsheets, csv files, dBase files, LDAP and popular mail client
address books as read-only data sources for office documents, mostly
mail merge.
This is the most important feature and the concept is superior to MS
Office if there is a computer knowledgable administrator able to work
with templates, spreadsheets, plain text and some SQL in a creative
manner. For the end user who writes a serial letter the type of data
source makes no difference at all. It is always used in the same
(slightly clumsy) way, no matter if the addresses come from Oracle
server or plain text file.


The Light-LibO-Base will fail because it is like a car without a gear
box: you can open it and start it but not use it as intended

Øthe installing procedure of Lib-O causes problems because of unclear
instructions

Øthe LibO-Base module as a program is half done;even basic features does
not work


Base is not a stand-alone program and all the _basic_ features do work
well. The database backend is a mature database program, most of the
rest belongs to the Writer component.
There is just too much dysfunctional junk on top of the basic database
functionality which does not add any additional functionality.
Everything that the wizards are supposed to do can be done without the
wizard.
Today's users are do not accept any _basic_ features in a highly
sophisticated office suite, no matter how well the basic features use to
work. Instead they complain about the dysfunctional rubbish.



Øthere is no documentation explicit for LibO-Base -- and will
obviouslynot be;


There is excellent documentation for OOo Base which is identical to LibO
Base. Main problem with documentation is that today's computer users
overestimate their skills and do not understand the difference between
end user applications and development tools. This type of office suite
suggest that each component should be as easy to use as the text processor.



Users have to rely on OpenO documentation why there is no logical reason
to install LibO (ordinary new users does not know about any differences
between LibO and OO -- and do not know why to seek)

Øthe LibreOffice Help is a disaster -- a user new to LibO does not get
any (direct) help


LibO documentation on Base is plain wrong and misleading. Simply point
to the existing OOo docs or copy and paste that stuff.



Øthe embedded HSQLv1.8 is out-of-date and causes frustration and waste
of time because the lack of easy to get and sufficient support


There are not many users who suffer from the limited capabilities of
HSQL1.8. A high risk of total data loss is the main reason why one must
not use the embedded database. Getting an embedded database out of the
jail is easy enough.


Øthe reports is a important part of the data output; there is no Report
Builder explicit for LibO-Base or one that works properly


Calc is a very good sorrogate for a report engine even if you are not
very familiar with spreadsheets. It supports

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Ian Whitfield


On 20/04/2012 01:18, Andreas Säger wrote:
There are not many users who suffer from the limited capabilities of 
HSQL 1.8.
A high risk of total data loss is the main reason why one must not use 
the embedded database. Getting an embedded database out of the jail is 
easy enough. 
OK Andreas (or anyone else) - for those of us not so good at this how 
about a detailed Tutorial on doing this??


Right here

Step 1 
Step 2 
Step 3 

etc

(??)

Best regards

IanW


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Pertti Rönnberg


On 20.4.2012 11:00, MiguelAngel wrote:


One for you.

Much users even don't read the program's help.
A light read over all the help, shows very well what the program can 
do and how, many samples there, and also can solve the majority of the 
cuestions on daily use.
To drive a car is needed a license, in other words known the rules. 
Nobody was born learned.


Miguel Ángel.



Miguel,
May I correct you, you do not need a license for driving a car! When my 
son was 10 he had no license but I let him test driving my car!
But if you do not know the features of it, e.g. how to handle the gears, 
then you may study the Instruction Book, the User's Manual or whatever 
it is called.


Just to avoid misunderstanding:  I am talking about LibreOffice and 
it's  LibreOffice Help -- not OpenOffice's.
When I was new to LibO(-Base) I spent hours on trying to learn the logic 
of LibreOffice Help.

Try your self:
Let us say that you need to create a form (Base) in Design View based on 
a query , because you need fields from two tables in one of which you 
have a 'birthday' field that you want to be calculated as 'age' and want 
that age field visible on the form.

You know how to do in MSAccess but not in LibO-Base.
Start by pushing the LibreOffice Help button (lifebuoy)
Good luck!
Pertti Rönnberg

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Ian Whitfield


On 20/04/2012 14:57, Andreas Säger wrote:
1) Download and extract the latest HSQLDB to some place. No 
installation required.
2) Point the Class Path setting in the LibreOffice Java options to 
hsqldb.jar in your subdirectory lib. 

Thanks Andreas

OK
Step 1. Done (I downloaded and extracted hsqldb 2.2.8 to my 'software' 
folder)
Step 2. The lib folder is under root and all files are grey-ed out in 
Class Path??

 I then looked at my 'software' folder and found it there.
 Tried to set 'Class Path' to this but again all files are 
grey-ed out.


Did a search across my whole drive and found the following 
3 files

/home/ian/software/hsqldb-2.2.8/hsqldb/lib/hsqldb.jar
/opt/libreoffice3.5/programs/classes/hsqldb.jar
/opt/libreoffice3.5/programs/classes/sdbc_hsqldb.jar

Where to now?

Thanks for the help!!

IanW

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Nino Novak

On Friday 20 April 2012, 16:54:54 Pertti Rönnberg wrote:

 On 20.4.2012 11:00, MiguelAngel wrote:
  One for you.
  
  Much users even don't read the program's help...

 May I correct you, you do not need a license for driving a car...

Pertti, the problem is, that software usability today in most cases is still 
far from being intuitive. 

So the analogy with the car does not seem appropriate. Better take a Jumbo 
Jet's cockpit. Even if you don't want to fly it, but just to roll across the 
airport, you need to know awfully lots of things to move the plane. 

The challenge is to use LibreOffice despite of its shortcomings ;-)

Nino

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker


Le 20/04/2012 18:17, Nino Novak a écrit :


Pertti, the problem is, that software usability today in most cases is still
far from being intuitive.


I fully share this. Though some (eyes looking to Redmond) claim 
computing is intuitive, I'm seeing everyday that it is *not* and that 
using a computer *requires* training.


--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
I think that's a tad unfair.  People have grown-up learning MS's ways of doing 
things and so intuitive means doing things MS's way, ie the ways that 
encourages a proliferation of viruses and causes slowdowns and encourages 
bad-habits.  

A blank page in a Writer document looks like it's going to be fairly easy to 
write in and it is as long as people can avoid the bad habits they have picked 
up and perhaps even quickly skim through some of the official documentation or 
look things up in it if their first few tries are not instantly successful
Regards from
Tom :)



--- On Fri, 20/4/12, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote:

From: Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Friday, 20 April, 2012, 17:17

On Friday 20 April 2012, 16:54:54 Pertti Rönnberg wrote:

 On 20.4.2012 11:00, MiguelAngel wrote:
  One for you.
  
  Much users even don't read the program's help...

 May I correct you, you do not need a license for driving a car...

Pertti, the problem is, that software usability today in most cases is still 
far from being intuitive. 

So the analogy with the car does not seem appropriate. Better take a Jumbo 
Jet's cockpit. Even if you don't want to fly it, but just to roll across the 
airport, you need to know awfully lots of things to move the plane. 

The challenge is to use LibreOffice despite of its shortcomings ;-)

Nino

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker


Le 20/04/2012 16:48, Ian Whitfield a écrit :

On 20/04/2012 14:57, Andreas Säger wrote:

1) Download and extract the latest HSQLDB to some place. No
installation required.
2) Point the Class Path setting in the LibreOffice Java options to
hsqldb.jar in your subdirectory lib.

Thanks Andreas

OK
Step 1. Done (I downloaded and extracted hsqldb 2.2.8 to my 'software'
folder)
Step 2. The lib folder is under root and all files are grey-ed out in
Class Path??


Try Add File (freely translated from my FR interface) first (point to 
the directory where your .jar lies) then, when back to the Class Path 
window, use Add Archive. You should be set now.


--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Jean-Francois Nifenecker


Le 20/04/2012 18:30, Tom Davies a écrit :

Hi :) I think that's a tad unfair.  People have grown-up learning
MS's ways of doing things and so intuitive means doing things MS's
way, ie the ways that encourages a proliferation of viruses and
causes slowdowns and encourages bad-habits.


Intuitive? Hu. From Wikipedia: Intuition is the ability to acquire 
knowledge without inference or the use of reason.


I do not know of *any* computer or computer program that can be run 
without inference or the use of reason.


Any time I hear intuitive within the IT context, I jump to a gun.



A blank page in a Writer document looks like it's going to be fairly
easy to write in and it is as long as people can avoid the bad habits
they have picked up and perhaps even quickly skim through some of the
official documentation or look things up in it if their first few
tries are not instantly successful


To do that, they need training. Much training. First to forget that a 
computer is no typewriter, then to change their (bad) habits.


--
Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
+1
I can definitely agree with this!  Well said! :)
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Fri, 20/4/12, Jean-Francois Nifenecker 
jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote:

From: Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Friday, 20 April, 2012, 17:27

Le 20/04/2012 18:17, Nino Novak a écrit :
 
 Pertti, the problem is, that software usability today in most cases is still
 far from being intuitive.

I fully share this. Though some (eyes looking to Redmond) claim computing is 
intuitive, I'm seeing everyday that it is *not* and that using a computer 
*requires* training.

-- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-20 Thread Jay Lozier


On 04/20/2012 12:27 PM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote:

Le 20/04/2012 18:17, Nino Novak a écrit :


Pertti, the problem is, that software usability today in most cases 
is still

far from being intuitive.


I fully share this. Though some (eyes looking to Redmond) claim 
computing is intuitive, I'm seeing everyday that it is *not* and 
that using a computer *requires* training.


+1 - The only reason computers seem intuitive is that most OS's and 
programs use the ideas developed at PARC and first implemented in the 
80's. Some of the command groupings are not necessarily intuitive. MSO 
ribbon to me is not very intuitive, I can spend more hunting down a 
command than with older interfaces.


--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-19 Thread Pertti Rönnberg


On 18.4.2012 13:23, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
That is exactly why i wondered if Andreas' points could be worked on while leaving the existing package, Base, as it stands. 


That way the database functionality could be moved forwards while leaving the 
kludgy mess (ok, it might not be a kludge from a coders pov) to get sorted 
'later'.

The trees outside my window have been severely pruned back but i know that by the summer the leaves will be out in full force.  The trees look a lot healthier already as they are not groaning under their own weight. 
Regards from

Tom :)

--- On Wed, 18/4/12, Alexander Thurgoodalex.thurg...@gmail.com  wrote:

From: Alexander Thurgoodalex.thurg...@gmail.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 18 April, 2012, 10:05

Le 17/04/12 18:14, Andreas Säger a écrit :

Hi all,


The easiest improvements in my honest opinion:
- Wipe out the .odb container all together and get back to the
configuration of database access in OOo 1. Back to external databases
with configuration data in configuration files, forms and reports in
stand-alone office documents. More speed more safety, security,
accessibility and transparency. People who do not understand how to
connect separated software tools do not understand the .odb container
neither (as we can read in all the mail merge topics).
- Remove all the half done wizards. Do not improve them. Remove! No
database developer nor interface designer needs all this stinky rubbish.
There are graphical tools to compose forms and reports within office
documents. There is SQL for all the rest, including all the things we
can not do in the current graphical interface. There are plenty of SQL
editors to produce valid SQL for various databases. SQL text can be
pasted into any database configuration.
- Add native database queries, so the current direct SQL mode returns
editable row sets and the (useless or even harmful) graphical query
designer can be removed as well.
- Having removed all the wizards (they are Java components) without
losing any functionality at all, extensions could substitute .odb
packages. When you open the extension, the database gets installed
_permanently_ (rather than _temporarily_ like the .odb) into the
configuration tree together with the forms and reports documents. The
database will be registered and all the tables, queries, forms and
reports are accessible form the data source window, hyperlinks and
desktop links just like it used to be in OOo 1.



Ah, nostalgia those were halcyon days ;-)

+1 (not that that means anything in our user land.

Unfortunately, as I was told quite a while ago either on the dev-list or
IRC dev channel, or bugzilla,  no-one wants to go back to 10 year old
technology, i.e. the LO devs are not interested in undoing what Sun it
its infinite wisdom thought would be a good idea when it re-invented
OOo-Base, so we are stuck with what we have until someone steps up and
decides to either unravel it all or improve it - a mammoth task by
anyone's standards.


Alex





LibO-folks,

From this long and very interesting thread and some other discussions 
on this mailing list too, together with my own recent experiences, there 
is only one main conclusion to draw:


There is no real future forLibO's Base module, perhaps not for the whole 
LibO suite.


From a non-expert user's perspective there are in fact two versions of 
LibO-Base


A a Light-LibO-Base = a package consisting of LibO-Base as a 
front-end GUI and an embedded db-engine HSQKDBv1.8. This package is 
(could be) suitable for up to medium complex databases and be used by 
'ordinary' people (like me) who does not have own skills in programming 
or developing or in SQL or other languages (PHP, HTML, etc.) -- who 
plainly want to create a database following instructions mechanically


B  an Advanced-LibO-Base = the LibO-Base module to be used as a 
front-end GUI connected to an external db-engine and that can be used by 
people with own knowledge in programming anddb-theories and SQL and who 
have a good knowledge of the whole LibO's build-up,preferable in the 
linux environment


The Light-LibO-Base will fail because it is like a car without a gear 
box: you can open it and start it but not use it as intended


Øthe installing procedure of Lib-O causes problems because of unclear 
instructions


Øthe LibO-Base module as a program is half done;even basic features does 
not work


Øthere is no documentation explicit for LibO-Base -- and will 
obviouslynot be;


Users have to rely on OpenO documentation why there is no logical reason 
to install LibO (ordinary new users does not know about any differences 
between LibO and OO -- and do not know why to seek)


Øthe LibreOffice Help is a disaster -- a user new to LibO does not get 
any (direct) help


Øthe embedded HSQLv1.8 is out-of-date and causes frustration and waste 
of time because the lack of easy to get and sufficient

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
I think Kexi and the rest of Calligra/KOffice has a Windows version just as 
LibreOffice does.  Calligra/KOffice uses ODF natively and presumably can use MS 
formats although i'm not sure quite how well.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Wed, 18/4/12, Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 18 April, 2012, 10:17

Le 17/04/12 11:28, Ian Whitfield a écrit :

Hi Ian,

While I might agree with your statements with regard to the integrated
use of HSQLDB, I would differ with regard to hooking up Base to various
server backends, which in my experience do work rather well on the
whole, albeit with tweaking, and are multi-OS compatible.

 LONG story short I have now moved my (re-built) Database on to
 Kexi - and what a difference It's like getting out of an old
 broken-down VW (or other make) of car and getting into a brand new
 Jaguar and driving down the highway at 100mph!! And I know what that
 feels like as I did just that last year in the UK!! Yes there is a lot
 to learn and work out but the overall effect is like Chalk and Cheese!!
 
 For anyone interested I can recommend this DB - some of the more fancy
 options are only due out in future releases but for a basic DB job it
 just works!!
 

Is it multi-OS ? Can you create a db/form/query in Kexi and give it to a
Windows, Mac or Solaris user  and then have that work ? If not, then it
is no better than Access, or Lotus Approach.



Alex


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-18 Thread Ian Whitfield


On 18/04/2012 11:17, Alexander Thurgood wrote:

Le 17/04/12 11:28, Ian Whitfield a écrit :

Hi Ian,

While I might agree with your statements with regard to the integrated
use of HSQLDB, I would differ with regard to hooking up Base to various
server backends, which in my experience do work rather well on the
whole, albeit with tweaking, and are multi-OS compatible.
Hi Alex - Yes I wanted to try this and everybody said it was easy but 
NOBODY gave me any instructions!! I did mess about with it a few times 
but got nowhere - so I never was able to try this out!!


Is it multi-OS ? Can you create a db/form/query in Kexi and give it to a
Windows, Mac or Solaris user  and then have that work ? If not, then it
is no better than Access, or Lotus Approach.


Kexi is a standard SQLlight format so the files should be movable 
between OpSys-es. I also see that Calligra 2.4 has just been released 
that includes the latest Kexi and this is available on Window$ and they 
are asking for Mac OS Devs also!!


But non of this was a major concern of mine. I run my own DB and used it 
EVERY day. I don't have to pass it on to others so as long as it works 
for me (well) in Linux - that's what I need!!! And so far Kexi is 
delivering, (for me anyway!!).


All the best
Ian W
Pretoria


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
The divergence has resulted in at least a doubling of the numbers of people 
working on the project(s).  The projects do have a lot of overlap and share a 
lot.  People that were colleagues working alongside each other may find 
themselves split into different projects but still chatting and helping each 
other.  

Taking just LibreOffice alone, it has famously already had a vast amount of 
devs join in.  The Easy hacks initiative has made it far easier to get devs 
that are familiar with other projects familiarised with programming for 
LibreOffice.  It's helped draw in students and other people that have never 
really done any programming before or left programming years ago and Google's 
Summer of Code has helped draw people into programming for LO too.  

Under Sun the infrastructure had all grown quite tangled so it was good to get 
a fresh start under TDF  maximising the usefulness of  modern technology that 
simply wasn't around when Sun's infrastructure was originally planned.  

The Apache Foundation is quite large and IBM can support their developments but 
would fidn it difficult to support a truly and fully OpenSource project such as 
LibreOffice.  Apparently Apache Licensing allows a mix of some fairly 
proprietary chunks of code alongside OpenSource ones.  

If OOo had just carried on under Sun then it wouldn't have had the resources of 
either Apache nor TDF let alone both!!  

Plus about half the community would have been unhappy about not being fully 
OpenSource and therefore never gaining the backing of the Free Software 
Foundation which has led to a greater range of distros being comfortable using 
LO.  The other half might have wanted to pull us more in the direction of 
corporate secrecy such as IBM seem to want.  This way both sides are happier 
and growing faster.  

Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Wed, 18/4/12, Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 18 April, 2012, 10:17

Le 17/04/12 11:28, Ian Whitfield a écrit :

Hi Ian,

While I might agree with your statements with regard to the integrated
use of HSQLDB, I would differ with regard to hooking up Base to various
server backends, which in my experience do work rather well on the
whole, albeit with tweaking, and are multi-OS compatible.

 LONG story short I have now moved my (re-built) Database on to
 Kexi - and what a difference It's like getting out of an old
 broken-down VW (or other make) of car and getting into a brand new
 Jaguar and driving down the highway at 100mph!! And I know what that
 feels like as I did just that last year in the UK!! Yes there is a lot
 to learn and work out but the overall effect is like Chalk and Cheese!!
 
 For anyone interested I can recommend this DB - some of the more fancy
 options are only due out in future releases but for a basic DB job it
 just works!!
 

Is it multi-OS ? Can you create a db/form/query in Kexi and give it to a
Windows, Mac or Solaris user  and then have that work ? If not, then it
is no better than Access, or Lotus Approach.



Alex


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
That sounds much easier for data-input and normal look-up use for normal users 
that are barely familiar with Word/Writer and Calc/Excel.  

Most normal office workers seem scared of using databases for even low level 
tasks.  This style of use takes away the scary front-end and gives them 
something more familiar.  

It sounds like a slightly tougher challenge for the designers in some ways but 
saves them endless time fiddling around lining up boxes on Forms and Reports.  
If normal office workers can be allowed to do the fiddling then i think that 
suits everyone much better.  

Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Wed, 18/4/12, Fernand Vanrie s...@pmgroup.be wrote:

From: Fernand Vanrie s...@pmgroup.be
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 18 April, 2012, 10:55

On 17/04/2012 23:58, Andreas Säger wrote:
 Am 17.04.2012 19:23, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 It looks like most of this can be done without touching Base itself?  Is LO 
 able to use databases in this way already?  Is it something that could be 
 passed to the devs list an/or the BoD discussion list?  Something like this 
 could be phrased to capture the imagination,  Saying it's the old way might 
 put them off.
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 
 
 I use to use Base like this. I connect a Base document to HSQL 2.8 databases 
 with forms and reports on the desktop (spreadsheet reports are sufficient for 
 us). The Base container is nothing but a configuration file storing the 
 connection URL, SQL query strings and the default log-in (and I left some 
 rarely used admin forms in it).
 My users do not know anything about the database document.
 The content of the database document could be some XML and query strings in 
 the configuration tree (just like it used to be in OOo 1).
 
 
We are using OO-LO as a front end to connect to MySQL, we no longer use  the 
LO-forms etc , but we usesDialogs and their controls (also Drids and the 
DataSourceBrowser)who are fed with the MySQL-data.
Reporting is done by feeding WriterDocs with the data, or Calc-spreadsheets for 
data oriented reports. Exporting to a spreadsheet is very slow when feeding the 
sheet cell by cell. But using the doimport on a cell range is lightning fast.
 For Connecting, we use the NativeConnector. We try to avoid using a OO-LO 
dbase doc(for safety reasons) and connect directly using the DriverManager. 
This method has a important drawback, The DataSourceBrowser  is not working 
without connecting with dbaseDoc.
when low volume selections (100 lines)using the GridControls is very use full 
but becomes to slow for big selections, here is the DataSource browser a 
possible workaround. GridControls however have the advantage that we can 
color every line, that makes it far more user friendly.
This system is used by 100 users , who can do all their  tasks with only using 
OO-LO

Greetz

Fernand


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
That is exactly why i wondered if Andreas' points could be worked on while 
leaving the existing package, Base, as it stands.  

That way the database functionality could be moved forwards while leaving the 
kludgy mess (ok, it might not be a kludge from a coders pov) to get sorted 
'later'.

The trees outside my window have been severely pruned back but i know that by 
the summer the leaves will be out in full force.  The trees look a lot 
healthier already as they are not groaning under their own weight.  
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Wed, 18/4/12, Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com wrote:

From: Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Wednesday, 18 April, 2012, 10:05

Le 17/04/12 18:14, Andreas Säger a écrit :

Hi all,

 
 The easiest improvements in my honest opinion:
 - Wipe out the .odb container all together and get back to the
 configuration of database access in OOo 1. Back to external databases
 with configuration data in configuration files, forms and reports in
 stand-alone office documents. More speed more safety, security,
 accessibility and transparency. People who do not understand how to
 connect separated software tools do not understand the .odb container
 neither (as we can read in all the mail merge topics).
 - Remove all the half done wizards. Do not improve them. Remove! No
 database developer nor interface designer needs all this stinky rubbish.
 There are graphical tools to compose forms and reports within office
 documents. There is SQL for all the rest, including all the things we
 can not do in the current graphical interface. There are plenty of SQL
 editors to produce valid SQL for various databases. SQL text can be
 pasted into any database configuration.
 - Add native database queries, so the current direct SQL mode returns
 editable row sets and the (useless or even harmful) graphical query
 designer can be removed as well.
 - Having removed all the wizards (they are Java components) without
 losing any functionality at all, extensions could substitute .odb
 packages. When you open the extension, the database gets installed
 _permanently_ (rather than _temporarily_ like the .odb) into the
 configuration tree together with the forms and reports documents. The
 database will be registered and all the tables, queries, forms and
 reports are accessible form the data source window, hyperlinks and
 desktop links just like it used to be in OOo 1.
 
 

Ah, nostalgia those were halcyon days ;-)

+1 (not that that means anything in our user land.

Unfortunately, as I was told quite a while ago either on the dev-list or
IRC dev channel, or bugzilla,  no-one wants to go back to 10 year old
technology, i.e. the LO devs are not interested in undoing what Sun it
its infinite wisdom thought would be a good idea when it re-invented
OOo-Base, so we are stuck with what we have until someone steps up and
decides to either unravel it all or improve it - a mammoth task by
anyone's standards.


Alex



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-17 Thread Ian Whitfield


 On 04/15/2012 08:58 AM, David wrote:  ...
  
  What database doe you think works better than OpenOffice or LibreOffice?
  

I don't have any views on this matter.
After using OO/LO Base for over 5 years now I gave up last month after 
the latest crash. It has been an ongoing battle to keep my DB 
operational and I was really fed-up with all the crashes, loss of data 
and time spent fixing the DB etc etc over the years.


I'm NOT running a fancy DB here - just a Membership List with about 2500 
records, each record with three photos and approx 70 fields. A bunch of 
Queries and a few Reports so it's not exactly Rocket Science!!


I came to the very sad conclusion, (after my last crash when Base 
managed to randomly drop about a quarter of my Data (not complete 
records but fields in the records), and scramble about another 
third!!! AND it would no longer even run my 'User Form'!!), that 
Base is NOT fit for purpose. This is MY opinion - and I think 5 years is 
a long enough time to get a good feel for it - but no doubt I will get 
flamed for this comment.


LONG story short I have now moved my (re-built) Database on to 
Kexi - and what a difference It's like getting out of an old 
broken-down VW (or other make) of car and getting into a brand new 
Jaguar and driving down the highway at 100mph!! And I know what that 
feels like as I did just that last year in the UK!! Yes there is a lot 
to learn and work out but the overall effect is like Chalk and Cheese!!


For anyone interested I can recommend this DB - some of the more fancy 
options are only due out in future releases but for a basic DB job it 
just works!!


I'm NOT missing Base!!

Ian Whitfield
Pretoria


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off-list Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
I guess you tried using various external back-ends?  Did you consider using one 
of the back-ends without having Base as the front-end?

People have already suggested that Kexi is not even as 'advanced' as Base but 
that was about a year ago so it's quite possible they were wrong or that things 
have changed.  It's good to have something i can recommend to people that are 
unhappy with Base because Base is clearly not ready and doesn't have enough 
devs working on it.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Tue, 17/4/12, Ian Whitfield whitfi...@telkomsa.net wrote:

From: Ian Whitfield whitfi...@telkomsa.net
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 17 April, 2012, 10:28

  On 04/15/2012 08:58 AM, David wrote:  ...
     What database doe you think works better than OpenOffice or 
 LibreOffice?
   
 I don't have any views on this matter.
After using OO/LO Base for over 5 years now I gave up last month after the 
latest crash. It has been an ongoing battle to keep my DB operational and I 
was really fed-up with all the crashes, loss of data and time spent fixing the 
DB etc etc over the years.

I'm NOT running a fancy DB here - just a Membership List with about 2500 
records, each record with three photos and approx 70 fields. A bunch of Queries 
and a few Reports so it's not exactly Rocket Science!!

I came to the very sad conclusion, (after my last crash when Base managed to 
randomly drop about a quarter of my Data (not complete records but fields in 
the records), and scramble about another third!!! AND it would no longer 
even run my 'User Form'!!), that Base is NOT fit for purpose. This is MY 
opinion - and I think 5 years is a long enough time to get a good feel for it 
- but no doubt I will get flamed for this comment.

LONG story short I have now moved my (re-built) Database on to Kexi - 
and what a difference It's like getting out of an old broken-down VW (or 
other make) of car and getting into a brand new Jaguar and driving down the 
highway at 100mph!! And I know what that feels like as I did just that last 
year in the UK!! Yes there is a lot to learn and work out but the overall 
effect is like Chalk and Cheese!!

For anyone interested I can recommend this DB - some of the more fancy options 
are only due out in future releases but for a basic DB job it just works!!

I'm NOT missing Base!!

Ian Whitfield
Pretoria


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
Dohhh, that last post was meant to be off-list!!
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Tue, 17/4/12, Ian Whitfield whitfi...@telkomsa.net wrote:

From: Ian Whitfield whitfi...@telkomsa.net
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 17 April, 2012, 10:28

  On 04/15/2012 08:58 AM, David wrote:  ...
     What database doe you think works better than OpenOffice or 
 LibreOffice?

 I don't have any views on this matter.
After using OO/LO Base for over 5 years now I gave up last month after the 
latest crash. It has been an ongoing battle to keep my DB operational and I 
was really fed-up with all the crashes, loss of data and time spent fixing the 
DB etc etc over the years.

I'm NOT running a fancy DB here - just a Membership List with about 2500 
records, each record with three photos and approx 70 fields. A bunch of Queries 
and a few Reports so it's not exactly Rocket Science!!

I came to the very sad conclusion, (after my last crash when Base managed to 
randomly drop about a quarter of my Data (not complete records but fields in 
the records), and scramble about another third!!! AND it would no longer 
even run my 'User Form'!!), that Base is NOT fit for purpose. This is MY 
opinion - and I think 5 years is a long enough time to get a good feel for it 
- but no doubt I will get flamed for this comment.

LONG story short I have now moved my (re-built) Database on to Kexi - 
and what a difference It's like getting out of an old broken-down VW (or 
other make) of car and getting into a brand new Jaguar and driving down the 
highway at 100mph!! And I know what that feels like as I did just that last 
year in the UK!! Yes there is a lot to learn and work out but the overall 
effect is like Chalk and Cheese!!

For anyone interested I can recommend this DB - some of the more fancy options 
are only due out in future releases but for a basic DB job it just works!!

I'm NOT missing Base!!

Ian Whitfield
Pretoria

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
Not really a troll.  The chap has worked harder than most to try to get Base 
more widely accepted both within TDF and outside and has tried to be positive 
about it.  However it's good to hear he has found success with a different 
OpenSource program.  It's also good to hear that Kexi appears to be better than 
it was.  
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Tue, 17/4/12, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote:

From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 17 April, 2012, 12:58

Am 17.04.2012 11:28, Ian Whitfield wrote:
 On 04/15/2012 08:58 AM, David wrote:  ...
   What database doe you think works better than OpenOffice or
 LibreOffice?
 
 I don't have any views on this matter.
 After using OO/LO Base for over 5 years now I gave up last month after
 the latest crash. It has been an ongoing battle to keep my DB
 operational and I was really fed-up with all the crashes, loss of data
 and time spent fixing the DB etc etc over the years.


Beware of the troll!


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-17 Thread Pertti Rönnberg

On 17.4.2012 12:34, ptoye wrote:

Andreas Säger wrote

Why can't you run SQL update queries? This is trivial to do in SQL. The
SQL is trivial to execute by macro.
If you desparately want a graphical query designer for
update/insert/delete queries, then you should write one and store your
queries somewhere in the .odb container.

Of course I can. If I can find out how to do it.

But this isn't the point, is it? The real point is that database front-ends
and macro languages are meant to make life easy, not difficult. You seem to
dislike sugar - worried about your diameter? The computer was made for
man, not man for the computer. Why not program in assembler - gives you much
more control and isn't really that hard (I speak from years of assembler
experience and with my tongue firmly in my cheek)?

-
Peter
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Well said Peter!

I totally and completely agree with you and Ian Whitfield.

And thanks to Ian for the tips about Kexi – I am almost ready for
anything but LibO-Base.

Since the beginning of this year I have been trying to create a similar
member register about a boy scout organization’s senior leaders also
collecting memorable info from gone days – before these leaders are
gone. The most I got from the efforts is waste of time and frustration.

A week ago Dan Lewis kindly sent to me drafts on documentation about
creating a Base-db. It is very well written, clear, logic, easy to
follow – but it is a draft, written in 2010 for OpenO. As far as I could
see, there are nothing similar for LibO-Base yet.

Regarding LibO-Base’s situation today, very much should be helped if
that Dan’s documentation should be completed and finished and included
in the LibO’s (Base) introduction.

(When following Dan’s documentation I also noticed that in LibO-Base you
can create a form /_based on a query_/ only using the Form Wizard –
Design View allows you to create a form /_only based on a table = one
table!_/)

To the LibO-folks and developers I repeat:

Stop developing LibO-Base;go back to the latest stable version and start
to complete it and repair all discrepancies in the program and between
the program and it’s documentation!

There is so much good done in LibO-Base so why not get the rest OK? So
it at least should meet the promises in advertising.! Without problems!

And:
What (in @!?*@!??) can be the clever idea with having in LibO-base a
embedded HSQL v.1.8 that is not supported any more when the latest
version is 2.2.x? What about e.g. SQLite?

As Peter said:thus making the life easier -- and if not easier but not
more difficult!

Regards

Pertti Rönnberg

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)

Almost no-one is developing Base or at least developments are not
reaching the releases.  So LO Base is almost no different from OOo's
Base except that it might have some regressions from the developments
of other components of LO.  



I get the impression that there is no official guide for OOo's Base and
so i am hoping that the documentation being written for LO/OOo Base
will help the devs work out what needs to be worked on or at least how
Base should be working.  



The BoD are against the idea of pulling in expertise from the various
back-ends that could work well with Base.  Someone did approach
Postgresql and they seemed positive but they need to break through the
reluctance of the BoD.  



I figured that we might get some feedback if people here started using
MariaDb.  Obviously people from MySql are unlikely to help as MySql is
owned by Oracle.  However the database experts here would rather
promote MySql which is only ever going to be a one-way street.  



I had hoped that other people would approach other projects such as (crucially) 
HSqlDb.  



Collaborating about Base is difficult because the experts and required
skills are scattered across several different mailing list and none are
willing to join another high-traffic list that hardly ever deals with
Base.  The BoD say they have more important issues to deal with and
can't spare the resources of setting up a mailing list dedicated to
Base.  - After all the other apps/modules of LO don't have their own
mailing lists and don't need them so why treat Base any different?



The BoD's big plan for getting Base up to scratch is to sitwait to
see if someone gets annoyed enough with it to start working at it but
the problems are more extensive than 1 or 2 people could handle so
every-time someone starts they get demoralised and leave.  Ian is just
one more example of this.    

Dan is a star for making such a good start on the documentation.  
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Tue, 17/4/12, Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi wrote:

From: Pertti Rönnberg p...@elisanet.fi
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 17 April, 2012, 15:03

On 17.4.2012 12:34, ptoye wrote:
 Andreas Säger wrote
 Why can't you run SQL update queries? This is trivial to do in SQL. The
 SQL is trivial to execute by macro.
 If you desparately want a graphical query designer for
 update/insert/delete queries, then you should write one and store your
 queries somewhere in the .odb container.
 
 
 Of course I can. If I can find out how to do it.
 
 But this isn't the point, is it? The real point is that database front-ends
 and macro languages are meant to make life easy, not difficult. You seem to
 dislike sugar - worried about your diameter? The computer was made for
 man, not man for the computer. Why not program in assembler - gives you much
 more control and isn't really that hard (I speak from years of assembler
 experience and with my tongue firmly in my cheek)?
 
 -
 Peter
 --
 View this message in context: 
 http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Problems-importing-an-OO-database-into-LO-tp3890826p3916735.html
 Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
 

Well said Peter!

I totally and completely agree with you and Ian Whitfield.


And thanks to Ian for the tips about Kexi – I am almost ready for anything but 
LibO-Base.

Since the beginning of this year I have been trying to create a similar member 
register about a boy scout organization’s senior leaders also collecting 
memorable info from gone days – before these leaders are gone. The most I got 
from the efforts is waste of time and frustration.

A week ago Dan Lewis kindly sent to me drafts on documentation about creating a 
Base-db. It is very well written, clear, logic, easy to follow – but it is a 
draft, written in 2010 for OpenO. As far as I could see, there are nothing 
similar for LibO-Base yet.

Regarding LibO-Base’s situation today, very much should be helped if that Dan’s 
documentation should be completed and finished and included in the LibO’s 
(Base) introduction.

(When following Dan’s documentation I also noticed that in LibO-Base you can 
create a form /_based on a query_/ only using the Form Wizard – Design View 
allows you to create a form /_only based on a table = one table!_/)

To the LibO-folks and developers I repeat:

Stop developing LibO-Base;go back to the latest stable version and start to 
complete it and repair all discrepancies in the program and between the program 
and it’s documentation!

There is so much good done in LibO-Base so why not get the rest OK? So it at 
least should meet the promises in advertising.! Without problems!

And:
What (in @!?*@!??) can be the clever idea with having in LibO-base a embedded 
HSQL v.1.8 that is not supported any more when the latest version is 2.2.x? 
What about e.g. SQLite?

As Peter said:thus making the life easier  -- and if not easier

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
Would it be easy to upgrade the HSqlDb embedded in Base or would all the tweaks 
need to be applied?  Are the tweaks vital or could they left out? 
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Tue, 17/4/12, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote:

From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 17 April, 2012, 16:28

Am 17.04.2012 16:03, Pertti Rönnberg wrote:

 To the LibO-folks and developers I repeat:
 
 Stop developing LibO-Base;go back to the latest stable version and start
 to complete it and repair all discrepancies in the program and between
 the program and it’s documentation!
 
 There is so much good done in LibO-Base so why not get the rest OK? So
 it at least should meet the promises in advertising.! Without problems!
 
As far as I can see, the Base component of LibO 3.5 is identical to the one in 
OOo 3.3.
 And:
 What (in @!?*@!??) can be the clever idea with having in LibO-base a
 embedded HSQL v.1.8 that is not supported any more when the latest
 version is 2.2.x? What about e.g. SQLite?
 
Within a few minutes you can export your embedded HSQL 1.8 to an external HSQL 
2.8. This is really a piece of cake.
SQLite would not solve a single problem with Base, even if somebody would 
manage to integrate this thing. It would be rather different from all the 
other supported databases.
HSQL is a vanilla database. There is nothing special with its features and 
data types. Being a very well done Java application it is platform independent 
byte by byte.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
It looks like most of this can be done without touching Base itself?  Is LO 
able to use databases in this way already?  Is it something that could be 
passed to the devs list an/or the BoD discussion list?  Something like this 
could be phrased to capture the imagination,  Saying it's the old way might put 
them off.
Regards from
Tom :) 


--- On Tue, 17/4/12, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote:

From: Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Tuesday, 17 April, 2012, 17:14

Am 17.04.2012 17:38, Tom Davies wrote:
 Hi :)
 Would it be easy to upgrade the HSqlDb embedded in Base or would all the 
 tweaks need to be applied?  Are the tweaks vital or could they left out?
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 
 

The easiest improvements in my honest opinion:
- Wipe out the .odb container all together and get back to the configuration of 
database access in OOo 1. Back to external databases with configuration data in 
configuration files, forms and reports in stand-alone office documents. More 
speed more safety, security, accessibility and transparency. People who do not 
understand how to connect separated software tools do not understand the .odb 
container neither (as we can read in all the mail merge topics).
- Remove all the half done wizards. Do not improve them. Remove! No database 
developer nor interface designer needs all this stinky rubbish. There are 
graphical tools to compose forms and reports within office documents. There is 
SQL for all the rest, including all the things we can not do in the current 
graphical interface. There are plenty of SQL editors to produce valid SQL for 
various databases. SQL text can be pasted into any database configuration.
- Add native database queries, so the current direct SQL mode returns 
editable row sets and the (useless or even harmful) graphical query designer 
can be removed as well.
- Having removed all the wizards (they are Java components) without losing any 
functionality at all, extensions could substitute .odb packages. When you open 
the extension, the database gets installed _permanently_ (rather than 
_temporarily_ like the .odb) into the configuration tree together with the 
forms and reports documents. The database will be registered and all the 
tables, queries, forms and reports are accessible form the data source window, 
hyperlinks and desktop links just like it used to be in OOo 1.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-17 Thread Fernand Vanrie


On 17/04/2012 18:14, Andreas Säger wrote:

Am 17.04.2012 17:38, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
Would it be easy to upgrade the HSqlDb embedded in Base or would all 
the tweaks need to be applied?  Are the tweaks vital or could they 
left out?

Regards from
Tom :)




The easiest improvements in my honest opinion:
- Wipe out the .odb container all together and get back to the 
configuration of database access in OOo 1. Back to external databases 
with configuration data in configuration files, forms and reports in 
stand-alone office documents. More speed more safety, security, 
accessibility and transparency. People who do not understand how to 
connect separated software tools do not understand the .odb container 
neither (as we can read in all the mail merge topics).
- Remove all the half done wizards. Do not improve them. Remove! No 
database developer nor interface designer needs all this stinky 
rubbish. There are graphical tools to compose forms and reports within 
office documents. There is SQL for all the rest, including all the 
things we can not do in the current graphical interface. There are 
plenty of SQL editors to produce valid SQL for various databases. SQL 
text can be pasted into any database configuration.
- Add native database queries, so the current direct SQL mode 
returns editable row sets and the (useless or even harmful) graphical 
query designer can be removed as well.
- Having removed all the wizards (they are Java components) without 
losing any functionality at all, extensions could substitute .odb 
packages. When you open the extension, the database gets installed 
_permanently_ (rather than _temporarily_ like the .odb) into the 
configuration tree together with the forms and reports documents. The 
database will be registered and all the tables, queries, forms and 
reports are accessible form the data source window, hyperlinks and 
desktop links just like it used to be in OOo 1.




+ 1000


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-17 Thread Steve Edmonds




On 2012-04-18 06:13, ptoye wrote:

Pertti Rönnberg wrote


Well said Peter!

I totally and completely agree with you and Ian Whitfield.



Well, someone likes me! My point is that I'm really a hacker when it comes
to databases, not a professional coder, and life really needs to be made
easier.

I'm almost thinking of installing something like MySQL and writing my own
front-end in Java.
That's what I did, but front end in Apache/PHP. Take it anywhere, easily 
migrate, update. Data security (from fall over and future proofing. 
Divergence not an issue.)


Steve


Is there any point in suggesting that LibO and OO should continue to
diverge? I'd have thought convergence would be more productive, both in
terms of the development which seems too thinly spread, and for users who
might even see a serious contender emerging.

-
Peter
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-17 Thread Jay Lozier


On 04/17/2012 02:13 PM, ptoye wrote:

Pertti Rönnberg wrote


Well said Peter!

I totally and completely agree with you and Ian Whitfield.



Well, someone likes me! My point is that I'm really a hacker when it comes
to databases, not a professional coder, and life really needs to be made
easier.

I'm almost thinking of installing something like MySQL and writing my own
front-end in Java.
Try MySQL Workbench as MySQL/MariaDB front-end. It has a nice GUI 
interface and is FOSS. There is Ubuntu ppa for Natty and Oneiric if the 
version found on Oracle does not work.


There is a browser/php based GUI front-end phpMyAdmin I believe is the name.

Another front end is HeidiSQL, it is included with the Windows version 
of MariaDB. There is no Linux version of this front-end.


Is there any point in suggesting that LibO and OO should continue to
diverge? I'd have thought convergence would be more productive, both in
terms of the development which seems too thinly spread, and for users who
might even see a serious contender emerging.

-
Peter
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--
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jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
+1 
re: Base.  It's potential is awesome and even as it is now it can do some 
pretty amazing things easily that Access makes difficult but even so Access 
seems to be easier for most normal uses.  

I'm not sure about the Macro languages but LO/OOo seems to offer a choice of 4 
languages, none of which have been successfully used for malware out in the 
wild even at the low percentage you would expect given market share but maybe 
that might change in the future, i'm not sure.  

Hmm, my point about compatibility was badly made.  Forwards compatibility is 
always likely to be a problem but MSO seems to have problems with sideways 
(different version of Windows) and backwards compatibility, at least according 
to their installer's notes for MSO 2010.  

Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Sun, 15/4/12, ptoye l...@ptoye.com wrote:

From: ptoye l...@ptoye.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Sunday, 15 April, 2012, 14:34

Glad to hear it. But IMHO Base is just nowhere compared  to Access (which 
itself isn't much to shout about). And OO Basic compared to VBA similarly.  

As an ex-programmer I'm always keen to automate any process, but the OO Basic 
learning curve turns many people off (as far as I can see from bulletin board 
comments - even this one) before they even start.

Agreed that MS have problems in forwards compatibility. But that's an 
impossible dream. Can OO version 1 open OO version 3 documents?

Unfortunately I'm too short of time to contribute to OO/LO development - I 
suspect there's another 2-year learning curve.

-
Peter
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-15 Thread David

On 4/15/2012 11:48 AM, ptoye wrote:
 Well, I seem to have started off quite a discussion. It's interesting that
 Andreas seems to agree with me that OO isn't really for programming. And the
 use of ODF is  extremely important for intercommunicability, a point which
 isn't taken by many MS addicts.
 
 But I'm not trying to use a database to write a form letter - I'm not even a
 fully-fledged business, just a freelance pianist. But I do like to play with
 applications, and occasionally write my own where I can't find a suitable
 share- or free-ware one. And Base just doesn't work well enough - too many
 bugs and I suspect not enough will to drive proper develop,emt - hence
 Andrea's comments on Potemkin.
 
 Tom's comment on 4 languages being available is fine, but as the API's so
 impenetrable I feel it would have been better idea concentrate on getting
 one language right rather than four languages wrong! Others are at liberty
 to disagree.


What database doe you think works better than OpenOffice or LibreOffice?


-- 

  David

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
From what Andreas and others say i think that is most of the problem with 
Base.  Too many great ideas that only got half done.  I guess it might be the 
same with macros.  

Apparently Andrew Pitonyak's guide is one of the best ways to get into macro 
programming
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#Programmers
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sun, 15/4/12, David dgbo...@gmail.com wrote:

From: David dgbo...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Sunday, 15 April, 2012, 16:58

On 4/15/2012 11:48 AM, ptoye wrote:
 Well, I seem to have started off quite a discussion. It's interesting that 
 Andreas seems to agree with me that OO isn't really for programming. And the 
 use of ODF is  extremely important for intercommunicability, a point which 
 isn't taken by many MS addicts.
 
 But I'm not trying to use a database to write a form letter - I'm not even a 
 fully-fledged business, just a freelance pianist. But I do like to play with 
 applications, and occasionally write my own where I can't find a suitable 
 share- or free-ware one. And Base just doesn't work well enough - too many 
 bugs and I suspect not enough will to drive proper development - hence 
 Andrea's comments on Potemkin.
 
 Tom's comment on 4 languages being available is fine, but as the API's so 
 impenetrable I feel it would have been better idea concentrate on getting one 
 language right rather than four languages wrong! Others are at liberty to 
 disagree.


What database doe you think works better than OpenOffice or LibreOffice?

David


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

Hi :)
True.  I was hoping it was 2 separate questions; 1 about Base and the other 
about macros.  Both together is likely to be tricky.  
Regards from
Tom :)


--- On Sun, 15/4/12, ptoye l...@ptoye.com wrote:

From: ptoye l...@ptoye.com
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Date: Sunday, 15 April, 2012, 17:39


Tom wrote
 
 Hi :)
From what Andreas and others say i think that is most of the problem with
Base.  Too many great ideas that only got half done.  I guess it might be
the same with macros.  
 
 Apparently Andrew Pitonyak's guide is one of the best ways to get into
 macro programming
 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#Programmers
 Regards from
 Tom :)
 
 
 

Yes, I've downloaded it and really will read it when I have a spare
month

It seems very good, but omits Base entirely AFAICS.

-
Peter
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO

2012-04-15 Thread Jay Lozier


On 04/15/2012 11:58 AM, David wrote:

On 4/15/2012 11:48 AM, ptoye wrote:

Well, I seem to have started off quite a discussion. It's interesting that
Andreas seems to agree with me that OO isn't really for programming. And the
use of ODF is  extremely important for intercommunicability, a point which
isn't taken by many MS addicts.

But I'm not trying to use a database to write a form letter - I'm not even a
fully-fledged business, just a freelance pianist. But I do like to play with
applications, and occasionally write my own where I can't find a suitable
share- or free-ware one. And Base just doesn't work well enough - too many
bugs and I suspect not enough will to drive proper develop,emt - hence
Andrea's comments on Potemkin.

Tom's comment on 4 languages being available is fine, but as the API's so
impenetrable I feel it would have been better idea concentrate on getting
one language right rather than four languages wrong! Others are at liberty
to disagree.


What database doe you think works better than OpenOffice or LibreOffice?


I prefer to use MariaDB/MySQL and use Base as a front end. There are 
other FOSS rdms available that might be more suitable to your needs.


--
Jay Lozier
jsloz...@gmail.com


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Problems importing an OO database into LO