Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets
Hi :) Ahhh, we shorten MS Office to MSO. It might be only LibreOffice lists and a few other such places that use it that way. Regards from Tom :) From: JAMES MAJESKI jamesmaje...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 4:03 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets My only queries of the data are handled adequately by the calculations done in adjacent columns. Nothing special, complex, or complicated will easily replace it nor be more useful. I can see how a database between libraries would benefit all the libraries that subscribe to the common database, but my requirements are so simple that a simple spreadsheet does everything I need. You mentioned MSO so I looked it up. The following are the results of that search: macro saccadic oscillation Mail Stream Optimization Main Street Office Maintenance Spare Optimization Maintenance Stores Office Maintenance Support Office Major Sales Opportunities Major Service Outage Major Sponsoring Organization Managed Services Organization Management Services Officer Manager of Search Operations Manufacturers Statement of Origin Manufacturing Shop Order map support office (US DoD) Maplewood/South Orange (New Jersey) marine safety office(r) (US DoD) Marine Survey Office Mariposa Symphony Orchestra (Mariposa, CA) Maritime Security Operations (US) Marketing Sales Office Marketplace Services Organization (Canada) Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia Inc (NYSE) Master Security Officer Material Status Officer McKeesport Symphony Orchestra (McKeesport, PA) Medical Second Opinion Medical Service Organization Medical Stores Organization Medical Support Order (health care) Mees Solar Observatory (Maui, Hawaii) Melbourne Symphony Orchestra Methadone Support Organization Methionine Sulfone (code for modified amino acid) Methylated Seed Oil Mexican Spotted Owl Microsoft Office Microsoft Outlook Mid-Atlantic Symphony Orchestra (Ocean City, MD) Middlesex Sheriff's Office (Medford, MA) Midland Symphony Orchestra (Midland, Michigan) Migrant Student Organization (various organizations) Military Systems Organization (US DoD) Military Satellite Officer Military Service Obligation Military Supply Officer MILSATCOM Systems Office Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra (Milwaukee, WI) Mind Sports Olympiad Mind Sports Organization (est. 1997; Canada) Minesweeper, Ocean (Non-Magnetic) Minor Service Order Mission Safety Officer Mission Space Objects Mission Staging Operation(s) Mission Support Officer Missoula, MT, USA - Missoula International (MSO Airport Code) Mixed Signal Option (Teradyne testers) Mixed Signal Oscilloscope Mobile Switch Office Mobilization Staff Officer (US DoD) Molecular Spin Orbital Molten Salt Oxidation Monadic Second-Order Logic Montessori School of Ojai (Ojai, CA) Montreal Symphony Orchestra Morale Support Officer Most Serious Offense (criminal justice) Most/Main/More Significant Other (Polyamory) Moving Swiftly On MSE Systems Overhaul Multi-System Operator(s) Multi-Service Operation Multi-cultural Student Organization Multimedia Service Operator Multiple Service Operator Multiple Subscriber Organization multiple system operation(s) Multiple System Operator Multi-system Operator (as in satellite/cable TV networks) Murray Symphony Orchestra (Murray, UT) Muslims Speak Out Must Start On (project management) Mustard Seed Oil Mutual Service Office (insurance) My Simple Office (Simple Office Solutions, Inc software) My Sweet One (Phish song) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Date-will-not-format-or-sort-when-imported-into-calc-ods-tp4004907p4007153.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets
On 09/12/2012 01:23 AM, JAMES MAJESKI wrote: Two digit years have always been a problem. I always presume that the use two digit years was obsolete after the Y2K publicity, but bad habits continue. We are no longer in the era of eighty column punch cards, so there is no excuse for two digit years. ISO8601 is the international standard, so it is not ambiguous. In other formats, using four digit years and month names are not ambiguous no matter the element order. Any other formats require a time consuming examination for clues as to element order or an explanation from the source. My input data may be in any of the formats. Once I determine the order of the elements and resolved two digit years, I can easily convert to ISO8601. In a spreadsheet a date year is a display choice, the actual date is stored as a number relative to a 0 day. In a database, however, it depends on how the field is defined: text or Date/Datetime. AFAIK all Date/Datetime entries require a 4 digit year. The problem with a database is it may use a location specific order (Imm/dd/ for US or dd/mm/ otherwise) for entry and storage. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets
Hi :) I think all these tools require skill and experience. It's easiest to keep using the tool you have most skills and experience in but at the same time it is a good idea to try to build-up experience with other tools. If Andreas was working with your data then a database-program would be better and faster. If you had his level of skill and experience with Base and your level with Calc/Excel then you would probably find that Base was far, far easier and faster than Calc/Excel for this particular task. It's beyond the scope of this list to set-up a database for you but i suspect that if Andreas or Alex or someone did then you would find that easier to work with than the spreadsheet system you are using at the moment. Something i would quite like to see at some point in the future is people on this list getting paid work on a consultancy basis for odd one-off tasks, perhaps not even at such high rates as consultants might normally get. There are huge philosophical and practical problems around that sort of thing though even though it's allowed within the scope of the GPL and MPL license agreements. If someone approached me off-list i would feel obliged to point them towards someone with more skill and knowledge such as Jay, Regina, Dan and the plethora of other people we see giving great answers week in week out. If the request was made on-list then i thik we could figure out who would be best for a particular task, given time constraints and personal work-loads. Regards from Tom :) From: JAMES MAJESKI jamesmaje...@gmail.com To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 7:00 Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets My research has convinced me that I do not have neither the time nor the resources to set up and maintain a database. I might consider it if all of the data were received in the same layout, but the layout is as varied as are the sources. Since I am the only one that is using the data, a spreadsheet serves me best as I am able to freely add, delete, and modify the layout, format, calculations, etc. Something a for which a database has never been designed. If I had many collaborators to work on the project, perhaps a database may be of more use, but since I do not, I do not need the added headache of trying to setup and maintain an additional level of complexity. This is the conclusion I have drawn based upon the available documentation on the internet and conversations with people that have worked with their company's database. They all say it does not work until the processes are resolved to the point that they need not change. One person explained the problems that occurred when their processes did require a major modification. After weeks of attempting to make the required modifications, it was decided to set up another database. Then they went through months of consultation and headache to get the essential data transferred from the old database into the new one. A database is a good tool to keep track of large amounts of data and tracking processes, but unless it is a big company that has unchanging processes, a database may be more of a liability than a help. With my data constantly evolving, a database would need to be modified on a regular basis and I am unwilling to invest the extra time to do so. All my data fits on a spreadsheet and is easily modified as the sources are added or deleted as each source has a different idea as to how the data should be presented. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Date-will-not-format-or-sort-when-imported-into-calc-ods-tp4004907p4006921.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets
On 09/12/2012 02:00 AM, JAMES MAJESKI wrote: My research has convinced me that I do not have neither the time nor the resources to set up and maintain a database. I might consider it if all of the data were received in the same layout, but the layout is as varied as are the sources. Since I am the only one that is using the data, a spreadsheet serves me best as I am able to freely add, delete, and modify the layout, format, calculations, etc. Something a for which a database has never been designed. If I had many collaborators to work on the project, perhaps a database may be of more use, but since I do not, I do not need the added headache of trying to setup and maintain an additional level of complexity. This is the conclusion I have drawn based upon the available documentation on the internet and conversations with people that have worked with their company's database. They all say it does not work until the processes are resolved to the point that they need not change. One person explained the problems that occurred when their processes did require a major modification. After weeks of attempting to make the required modifications, it was decided to set up another database. Then they went through months of consultation and headache to get the essential data transferred from the old database into the new one. A database is a good tool to keep track of large amounts of data and tracking processes, but unless it is a big company that has unchanging processes, a database may be more of a liability than a help. With my data constantly evolving, a database would need to be modified on a regular basis and I am unwilling to invest the extra time to do so. All my data fits on a spreadsheet and is easily modified as the sources are added or deleted as each source has a different idea as to how the data should be presented. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Date-will-not-format-or-sort-when-imported-into-calc-ods-tp4004907p4006921.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. Databases are very useful even for small projects because of the querying capabilities of a database. Base and Access (MSO) are both relational databases meaning that the data tables are related and queries can search for data in any table. Relational databases require that the tables be predefined and this can be a problem for data entry when the data is not received in the same format as the data tables. Another option for a database is a NoSQL database such as MongoDB or CouchDB (both are FOSS projects) where the database tables do not require a predefined layout and what may take multiple linked tables in a relational database can be done in one table. For example a book in a relational database may have multiple authors, formats (different ISBN numbers), and subjects. In a relational database you would have a table for the book (title, year, publisher), another for authors, another for ISBN numbers, and another for subjects. In a NoSQL database one could combine this information into one table. The data can be searched. Another problem is that often the MSO bundle does not include Access so a user who needs a database is either forced to find one or use Excel as a substitute. -- Jay Lozier jsloz...@gmail.com -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets
Hi :) Sometimes on this list we bully, cajole or otherwise try to push people into using tools they are not familiar with. Even if it's a better tool for the task, that doesn't always make it better for the person's work-flow. There is only one right way of doing things and that's your own. Just as mine is for me (although i often think my neighbour's way is better - until i try it and then realise both were wrong and then regret changing and wish everything was back the way it was before i messed it up trying to copy someone else's style, but hopefully that's just me). Regards from Tom :) --- On Wed, 12/9/12, JAMES MAJESKI jamesmaje...@gmail.com wrote: From: JAMES MAJESKI jamesmaje...@gmail.com Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets To: users@global.libreoffice.org Date: Wednesday, 12 September, 2012, 23:57 The problem is that I see no advantage in a database. I do see many disadvantages. For what I am doing, a database is not an option. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Date-will-not-format-or-sort-when-imported-into-calc-ods-tp4004907p4007129.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Was Re: Date will not format or sort when imported into calc (ods) - Databases vs Spreadsheets
On 09/09/2012 06:51 PM, JAMES MAJESKI wrote: In a spreadsheet I get all the information I require and it is easy to get additional information if needed. I can add, modify, and delete headers both horizontally and vertically. I can add, modify, or delete cells, rows, or columns at will. As long as I leave the original data alone, I can add as many calculated columns or rows as I wish. One of my spreadsheets is a complete double entry bookkeeping system. I can use split or freeze to keep the column and row titles visible while scrolling through the data of the various accounts. According to what I read last night, you must be very careful or you may compromise essential data. The implication was that it would be easier and safer to create a new database than to modify it. From the https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications documentation : Fields can be added or deleted, but adding a field requires you to enter the data for that one field for every existing record with an entry for that field. Deleting a field deletes all the data once contained in that field. Changing the field type of a field can lead to data being lost either partially or completely. Deleting a table removes all of the data contained in every field of the table. I will continue reading, but so far it seems that a spreadsheet has all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of a database. My knowledge of databases is very limited. If there is any advantage in using a database over a spreadsheet, please share it with me It seems to me that there ought to be advantages to using databases. After all, there are college courses of databases. Oracle has a database program (better known as a database management system that is very complex). The text book for it is 700+ pages. This is used in many of the large businesses. This textbook is known to give students headaches. So, is it possible that the things you see as advantages and disadvantages just might not be the whole story? The following is the link to the draft folder for Base. You can download the database use with Chapter 1 of the Base Guide. There is also a link to the database (Budget.odb) used for Chapters 2-4 of the Base Guide. Perhaps the latter could show the advantages of using a database instead of a spreadsheet. http://www.odfauthors.org/libreoffice/english/base-guide/draft-lo3.4 In the past, I have used a spreadsheet to keep track of my finances. Now I use a database which I prefer. Why? Size is one of the reasons. Each sheet get physically larger as data is entered, a database does not. Spreadsheet: data is entered into individual sheets based upon the specific data. Database: the entries are made in a single form. Spreadsheet: data must be linked from one sheet to another (I had links between data with a sheet). Database: This is done using table and field names. To me, one of many advantages of a database is the query. You can tell it to get data from specific fields, and it will display it in a table format. This does not take up physical space like it would in a spreadsheet. Another is what can be done with the simple sum function in a query. For example, my financial database has a field named, Amount. In this field I enter all of the expenses and income that I have. I create the query to find the sum for the Amount field. I also tell the query to separate this sum so that I get a subtotal for each of my Accounts (I have 9). So I now have 9 subtotals of the Amount field. I also tell the query to list the names in the Accounts field alphabetically. In the end, the query's output is 2 columns by 9 columns: first column contains the names of the accounts listed alphabetically, and the second column contains the balance for each account listed. This is the SQL statement for the query in Budget.odb (it only has 5 accounts): SELECT Account, SUM( Amount ) AS Account Balance FROM Data WHERE Account IS NOT NULL GROUP BY Account ORDER BY Account This is the output: Account Account Balance Bank of America -600 Bank of Tennessee -541 Cash 20.48 Wamu MasterCard 649.84 Wells Fargo VISA 218.45 I use the same structure for the balances of my accounts. The only difference is that in Budget.odb, the Account field has 5 entries (hence 5 rows of subtotals) whereas mine has 9 entries (hence 9 rows of subtotals). It just occurred to me another advantage: the Data Source window which you open in Writer or Calc using the F4 key. You can see the query output without opening the database. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list
