Re: Display settings should not be per user
On 02/12/2010 08:47 AM, Marcel Rieux wrote: I'm trying in vain to get Twinview to work with NVIDIA's proprietary drivers. You know, images that show in a 5x4 format on my Viewsonic monitor showing fullscreen in 5x4 format on my Sony TV and images that are 16x9 filling up all the TV screen. Do you believe this it is possible with the Nouveau driver? That would be wonderful, mainly if it wouldn't prevent me from installing a TV tuner later on. All I know is that dual rotated monitors as well as dual monitors with different resoltions works very well here (no xorg.conf and only using gnome-display-properties). Perhaps just give it a try? /Tobias -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Tim ignored_mail...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Why do people repeatedly get this so wrong? (Users and those making the systems.) The pixel count and resolution should be set to match the display card and the monitor, it's the FONT SIZE and graphics sizes that you should change. My weary eyes are sorry to tell you that it is only in the last few years that application software has been widely available, that allows one to increase the display size without also increasing the print size. That is, one can set the size of some type in points, but then set the magnification at which the entire document is displayed - or the minification if you want to fit a whole bunch of pages on the screen, without scrolling. You know what I'd really, really like? I don't actually want those big fat pixels I went on so much about. Not At All! No, what I want are lots and lots of really *tiny* pixels, say 200 of them per inch. But I want my application software to still be able to get the sizes of things right, both on the display and on printed pages. That would require that drawing be done in terms of ruler measurements, and not in terms of pixel measurements. For type, the text size would be specified in points or picas. For everything else it would be specified in inches or centimetres. Cocoa on Mac OS X can do this; Cocoa drawing is always done using floating-point measurements, and not integer pixel dimensions at all. I eagerly look forward to the day that Apple starts shipping Mac laptops with 200 DPI LCD screens. Such screens are already being manufactured, but are only economical for small devices such as smartphones, because they are very expensive. But Wait! There's More! If Cocoa can do it on Mac OS X, then GnuStep can do it on Linux too. GnuStep is a source code-compatible clone on Cocoa. Both frameworks use the Objective-C programming language. On both platforms, the Objective-C compiler is - and always has been - GCC with the addition of the Objective-C front end. But Wait! There's Less! GnuStep isn't supported on Fedora because of some manner of Political Insanity. Cocoa and GnuStep software is always packaged in small directory trees known as bundles; all of the files that on a traditional *NIX box are spewed all over God's Creation and Then Some are, with GnuStep and Cocoa, all kept neatly in one small tree. To cleanly uninstall a GnuStep or Cocoa application, one just uses rm -r on the bundle directory, or drags it to the trash. But I'm afraid that just isn't acceptable to the Fedora Powers That Be. Until they can find some way to package GnuStep applications so that they too are spread all over God's Creation and Them Some, those who decide what software is to be included in Fedora, will not allow GnuStep applications of any kind on a Fedora box. My weary eyes just want to say, that that's a really fucked-up attitude. And Then Some. Don Quixote. -- Don Quixote de la Mancha quix...@dulcineatech.com http://www.dulcineatech.com Dulcinea Technologies Corporation: Software of Elegance and Beauty. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 07:39 +0100, Tobias Ringström wrote: Why would anyone even want user specific display settings? Are users expected to move monitors around between logging in? Per user settings might be useful as a feature, but it's a very unfriendly default, or am I missing something? Yes and no... Remember the old CRT screens? You know, those that are big and bulky? They are still in use, and on those changing the resolution was the easy way to adjust the user experience in one step for users with either better or poorer sight than the norm. For flat screens this is a very, very wrong way to do it, but old habits never die. I could agree that users shouldn't be allowed to change resolution on flat screens. Instead they should get info on the proper way. Placement of screens is a different story. No, users are not supposed to move their screens around. What they frequently do is move the computers around. You know - laptops? For laptops you definitely want users to control placement of screens, right? At work I have one setup, at my home office a second one. Then there are at least two frequently used meeting rooms, one with a big screen, the other with a projector. Ideally, each external screen should be recognized (does EDID hold a serial number?) so the previous setup for that screen could be recalled automagically. I could agree that it should be easy to set a system default, especially for desktop systems. I clearly see the problem with the login prompt in certain configurations. For the first problem, adjusting to sight, there are other possibilities that should be used, but adjusting resolution was more user friendly than having to tweak a whole lot of settings to get everything right. Perhaps there should be a tool in 'assistive technologies' to handle all of this? The display configuration could then have a button to launch this tool. birger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 00:27 -0800, Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote: GnuStep isn't supported on Fedora because of some manner of Political Insanity. Cocoa and GnuStep software is always packaged in small directory trees known as bundles; all of the files that on a traditional *NIX box are spewed all over God's Creation and Then Some are, with GnuStep and Cocoa, all kept neatly in one small tree. All things Fedora could potentially end up in RHEL. I can assure you that all my experience from 20 years of running Unix-based servers confirms RedHats policy on this. When running hundreds of servers you cannot know how and where each kind of 'bundle' is installed. You need to know where all config files are. Where all log files are. Without knowing any details about what bundles are installed on a server. Otherwise you will make big mistakes. Really big ones. I actually drafted a policy for one of my biggest customers outlining the same kind of requirements for all 3rd party unix apps on all kinds of Unix systems. We demanded that all config files go in /etc, all log files in /var/log/appname, and that the install directory should be read-only. Being one of the big oil companies, they actually had the muscle to force app vendors to accept this. Are all OpenSource apps designed this way? No. Most of them will by default compile into either a 'bundle' in /usr/local or at least put their config files and log files in /usr/local/etc, /usr/local/log, and so on. The thing is, they have a build system that supports changing these defaults at compile time. All you need for Fedora is then a spec-file that specifies the arguments for the build systems so the package gets built correctly for Fedora. If GnuStep is well-coded it should be easy to rebuild it to conform. birger -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
Marcel Rieux wrote: 2010/2/12 Tobias Ringström tob...@ringis.se: I'm using two 1280x1024 displays rotated 90 degrees with an Nvidia graphics card, and I was very impressed by Fedora 12, because it was the first Fedora release where I could get this setup working without using Nvidia's closed source driver, and I didn't even have to fiddle with xorg.conf. After a few very intuitive changes in gnome-display-properties, it was just perfect. I'm trying in vain to get Twinview to work with NVIDIA's proprietary drivers. You know, images that show in a 5x4 format on my Viewsonic monitor showing fullscreen in 5x4 format on my Sony TV and images that are 16x9 filling up all the TV screen. Do you believe this it is possible with the Nouveau driver? That would be wonderful, mainly if it wouldn't prevent me from installing a TV tuner later on. I broke downjust for you :-) I've got a GeForce 7300 GT and running nVidia's 190.53 driver. I've got 2 monitors. A Samsung 2343BWX whose native resolution is 2048x1152 and a Samsung 172t whose native resolution is 1280x1024. The 2343BWX is connected on DVI and the 172t on the VGA. I've attached 4 xorg.conf files. xorg.conf.txt Is my original file with only the 2343BWX connected xorg.conf.twinview.txt Is with both attached in twinview mode xorg.conf.notwinview.xinerama.txt Is with both attached no twinview, xinerama enabled xorg.conf.notwinview.noxinerama.txt Is with both attached no twinview and no xinerama Somehow I hope this helps you somewhat Section ServerLayout Identifier Layout0 Screen 0 Screen0 RightOf Screen1 Screen 1 Screen1 0 0 InputDeviceKeyboard0 CoreKeyboard InputDeviceMouse0 CorePointer Option Xinerama 0 EndSection Section Files FontPathunix/:7100 EndSection Section Module Load dbe Load extmod Load type1 Load freetype Load glx EndSection Section InputDevice Identifier Mouse0 Driver mouse Option Protocol IMPS/2 Option Device /dev/input/mice Option Emulate3Buttons no Option ZAxisMapping 4 5 EndSection Section InputDevice Identifier Keyboard0 Driver kbd Option XkbLayout us Option XkbModel pc105 EndSection Section Monitor Identifier Monitor0 VendorName Unknown ModelName Samsung SyncMaster HorizSync 30.0 - 81.0 VertRefresh 56.0 - 75.0 Option DPMS EndSection Section Monitor Identifier Monitor1 VendorName Unknown ModelName Samsung SyncMaster HorizSync 30.0 - 81.0 VertRefresh 56.0 - 60.0 Option DPMS EndSection Section Device Identifier Device0 Driver nvidia VendorName NVIDIA Corporation BoardName GeForce 7300 GT BusID PCI:1:0:0 Screen 0 EndSection Section Device Identifier Device1 Driver nvidia VendorName NVIDIA Corporation BoardName GeForce 7300 GT BusID PCI:1:0:0 Screen 1 EndSection Section Screen Identifier Screen0 Device Device0 MonitorMonitor0 DefaultDepth24 Option TwinView 0 Option metamodes CRT: 1280x1024 +0+0; CRT: nvidia-auto-select +0+0; CRT: 1280x960 +0+0; CRT: 1152x864 +0+0; CRT: 1024x768 +0+0; CRT: 1024x768_70 +0+0; CRT: 1024x768_60 +0+0; CRT: 832x624 +0+0; CRT: 800x600 +0+0; CRT: 800x600d60 +0+0; CRT: 800x600_75 +0+0; CRT: 800x600_72 +0+0; CRT: 800x600_60 +0+0; CRT: 800x600_56 +0+0; CRT: 800x512 +0+0; CRT: 640x512 +0+0; CRT: 640x512d60 +0+0; CRT: 640x480 +0+0; CRT: 640x480_75 +0+0; CRT: 640x480_73 +0+0; CRT: 640x480_73_0 +0+0; CRT: 640x480_60 +0+0; CRT: 640x480_60_0 +0+0; CRT: 576x432 +0+0; CRT: 512x384 +0+0; CRT: 512x384d70 +0+0; CRT: 512x384d60 +0+0; CRT: 416x312 +0+0; CRT: 400x300 +0+0; CRT: 400x300d72 +0+0; CRT: 400x300d60 +0+0; CRT: 400x300d56 +0+0; CRT: 320x240 +0+0; CRT: 320x240d73 +0+0; CRT: 320x240d60 +0+0 SubSection Display Depth 24 EndSubSection EndSection Section Screen Identifier Screen1 Device Device1 MonitorMonitor1 DefaultDepth24 Option TwinView 0 Option TwinViewXineramaInfoOrder DFP-0 Option metamodes DFP: 2048x1152 +0+0 SubSection Display Depth 24 EndSubSection EndSection Section ServerLayout # Removed Option Xinerama 0 Identifier Layout0 Screen 0 Screen0 RightOf Screen1 Screen 1 Screen1 0 0 InputDeviceKeyboard0 CoreKeyboard InputDeviceMouse0 CorePointer Option Xinerama 1 EndSection Section Files RgbPath /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb FontPathunix/:7100 EndSection Section Module Load dbe Load
Re: Display settings should not be per user
Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote: What I've been looking for, for a long time, yet am unable to find, is a very large, yet LOW resolution LCD display. What I would like to see are great big fat square sharp pixels, with great big, sharply defined and completely non-antialiased text. if you set the resolution to an exact fraction, for example 800x600 on a 1600x1200 screen, it should be really sharp. Have you considered cheap TV LCD? they are big and often with low resolution. -- Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
On 02/12/2010 12:17 PM, Roberto Ragusa wrote: Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote: What I've been looking for, for a long time, yet am unable to find, is a very large, yet LOW resolution LCD display. What I would like to see are great big fat square sharp pixels, with great big, sharply defined and completely non-antialiased text. I use the big Dell WFP3008, which doubles up pixels quite nicely to 1280 x 800. Mind you, are you sure you don't just need new glasses? Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
2010/2/12 Tobias Ringström tob...@ringis.se: On 02/12/2010 08:47 AM, Marcel Rieux wrote: I'm trying in vain to get Twinview to work with NVIDIA's proprietary drivers. You know, images that show in a 5x4 format on my Viewsonic monitor showing fullscreen in 5x4 format on my Sony TV and images that are 16x9 filling up all the TV screen. Do you believe this it is possible with the Nouveau driver? That would be wonderful, mainly if it wouldn't prevent me from installing a TV tuner later on. All I know is that dual rotated monitors as well as dual monitors with different resoltions works very well here (no xorg.conf and only using gnome-display-properties). Perhaps just give it a try? I did... with Omega. This way I didn't have to uninstall the NVIDIA drivers. Yes, if you select mirror, the two screens are the same, except that the aspect ratio is only correct on the Viewsonic monitor. On the TV, everything is stretched horizontally to fill the screen. Only two different X screens provide correct aspect ratios on both screens. One advantage of Nouveau, here, is that it permits to open the same application in both screens, which NVIDIA doesn't allow. IOW, when applications open in 2 different screens, they know what screen they're in and the aspect ratio is correct. When mirrored (or cloned), the card doesn't interpret the data its receiving to adapt to the other screen, even though the NVIDIA driver seems to do an effort to achieve this. But it doesn't succeed. So, I believe that's it. What I wanted is impossible. Now, if only the cursor would stop going to the TV screen even when the TV is shut down! This is a bugger, mainly when using the Google/Yahoo search window in Firefox. A solution would be to make two different xorg files and use the monitor or TV one at the time: either the monitor is your monitor, or the TV is. Your suggestion to use the Gnome display settings taught me how things work. Thanks. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 4:54 AM, Ed Greshko ed.gres...@greshko.com wrote: Marcel Rieux wrote: 2010/2/12 Tobias Ringström tob...@ringis.se: Thanks for the trouble but see my answer to Tobias Ringström. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com wrote: I use the big Dell WFP3008, which doubles up pixels quite nicely to 1280 x 800. Mind you, are you sure you don't just need new glasses? It's not that I can't focus. It's that I don't want to have to. Focussing all day long on text on a computer screen makes me very, very tired by the end of the day. When I get home from work, it's everything I can do to work up the energy just to cook my supper. There are many reasons why one might be tired at the end of a work day, but I'm quite certain that primary among them, at least in my case, is having to read so much text. Mike -- Don Quixote de la Mancha quix...@dulcineatech.com http://www.dulcineatech.com Dulcinea Technologies Corporation: Software of Elegance and Beauty. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
2010/2/11 Tobias Ringström tob...@ringis.se: Why would anyone even want user specific display settings? Are users expected to move monitors around between logging in? Per user settings might be useful as a feature, but it's a very unfriendly default, or am I missing something? It would make sense for the cathode ray tube multisync monitors from the days of yore. Obsessive geek types could set the resolution very high to fit more source code on the screen... ... while those with poor eyesight could set the resolution very low, to make text larger and so easier to read. It doesn't make any sense at all of LCD displays though. One just about always wants to use the physical resolution of the LCD pixels. What I've been looking for, for a long time, yet am unable to find, is a very large, yet LOW resolution LCD display. What I would like to see are great big fat square sharp pixels, with great big, sharply defined and completely non-antialiased text. I spend all day long working in front of a monitor. Then when I go home, I spend all night long hanging out in front of a monitor so I can troll the Series of Tubes. This makes my eyes very tired, from having to read so much tiny print. Don Quixote -- Don Quixote de la Mancha quix...@dulcineatech.com http://www.dulcineatech.com Dulcinea Technologies Corporation: Software of Elegance and Beauty. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
Tobias Ringström wrote: I'm using two 1280x1024 displays rotated 90 degrees with an Nvidia graphics card, and I was very impressed by Fedora 12, because it was the first Fedora release where I could get this setup working without using Nvidia's closed source driver, and I didn't even have to fiddle with xorg.conf. After a few very intuitive changes in gnome-display-properties, it was just perfect. There's only one problem, and it's that the display settings are per user, and I can't even find a way to change the settings for the login screen. Why would anyone even want user specific display settings? Are users expected to move monitors around between logging in? Per user settings might be useful as a feature, but it's a very unfriendly default, or am I missing something? I think maybe you've not considered I tend to use only one user account for myself and my wife uses one. I have always worn glasses and my progressive lens are such that my left eye's prescription is for monitor use while the right is for books and such. I love running my monitor at 2018x1152. My wife doesn't wear glasses even though she really should. So, she wants hers at a lower resolution. On my test system, where I have various user accounts that I use for various things I want to have a system wide default. For that, I rely on the xorg.conf to provide that and never have to invoke user preferences. On the WinXP system also share you are constrained to system wide settings. We are constantly chiding each other to change the settings back to the other's settings. Kind of like the toilet seat :-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
2010/2/12 Tobias Ringström tob...@ringis.se: I'm using two 1280x1024 displays rotated 90 degrees with an Nvidia graphics card, and I was very impressed by Fedora 12, because it was the first Fedora release where I could get this setup working without using Nvidia's closed source driver, and I didn't even have to fiddle with xorg.conf. After a few very intuitive changes in gnome-display-properties, it was just perfect. I'm trying in vain to get Twinview to work with NVIDIA's proprietary drivers. You know, images that show in a 5x4 format on my Viewsonic monitor showing fullscreen in 5x4 format on my Sony TV and images that are 16x9 filling up all the TV screen. Do you believe this it is possible with the Nouveau driver? That would be wonderful, mainly if it wouldn't prevent me from installing a TV tuner later on. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
Re: Display settings should not be per user
On Thu, 2010-02-11 at 22:56 -0800, Don Quixote de la Mancha wrote: It would make sense for the cathode ray tube multisync monitors from the days of yore. Obsessive geek types could set the resolution very high to fit more source code on the screen... ... while those with poor eyesight could set the resolution very low, to make text larger and so easier to read. Why do people repeatedly get this so wrong? (Users and those making the systems.) The pixel count and resolution should be set to match the display card and the monitor, it's the FONT SIZE and graphics sizes that you should change. It's the *only* way to get things to work properly. Circles get drawn as circles, not eggs. Print previews are able to show things at real size on request, which puts an end to masses of test prints trying to get something you want printed at 1 cm square (for example) to actually print at the correct size. -- [...@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
