Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:40:05 -0500, Thomas Cameron wrote: > > > Quick definition: fora is the plural of forum, as in a web based forum > to discuss a topic or technology, like > https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/. > > Having said that... > > I love mailing lists. I have filters set up they silently go to the > correct mail folder, I can read through them at my leisure, and I only > have to deal with one client - my mail client. My mail client defaults > to sane viewing rules, threaded, in the order I prefer. It's the same > experience across every mailing list I'm a member of. I love that. It's > very accessibility-friendly. > > I hate using fora. [...] There was some mention above of Gmane and its old troubles. This note is just to make sure everybody here does know Gmane has been alive and well again for years and years.-- Beartooth Staffwright, Not Quite Clueless Power User Remember I know little (precious little!) of where up is. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 03/11/2024 12:49 AM, Tim via users wrote: Joe Zeff wrote (about web forums): why don't you simply set as many of them as possible to email you when there's a reply? Have you noticed how many of them won't let you reply to an email notification? Essentially you get a "someone left you a message" message, no details on what the message is, and no way to respond without going to the website. Yes, many times. However, it's better than having to check in at every one of them over and over hoping for a response. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, 2024-03-10 at 11:40 -0500, Thomas Cameron wrote: > > Am I the only one who feels this way? Has the day finally come where > I'm > just old and set in my ways? Are there others who prefer mailing > lists > to fora? > > To be clear, I am not bashing fora, per se - I'm just saying that for > me, they're not NEARLY as easy to deal with as email lists. If you > like > fora, that's awesome. I'm not attacking you. Let's nip that in the > bud. > I'm not looking for a flame war, just trying to see if other feel the > same way. Let's keep it civil. I agree with almost everything you've said with the exception of the word "fora". But, that's neither here nor there. I find mail lists are far, far easier to follow. I too look at them as an opportunity to learn new things since I see every message. I miss 98% of the content on web forums. The one thing web forums do make easier is conveying non-textual information. But, that's not enough for me to want to use a web forum over a mail list. Web forums and mail lists are different and different goals. -- Ranbir -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, 10 Mar 2024, 13:40 Thomas Cameron, wrote: > > I hate using fora. I generally have to open a separate tab for each > forum I'm on, and I'm on a LOT. And I have to go out of my way to even > remember all the fora I am a member of. For those of us who are members > of a bunch, it's kind of a beating - especially if you're an ADHD > person, like me. > Yes, yes, yes, to everything you said. *insert obligatory Jack Nicholson nodding "yes" GIF In slow motion* > Back in 2012 Sun Micro decided that web forums were the future and that the mailing list for Virtualbox users would be shut down, leaving only the developers mailing list. Their rationally or selling point was pure BS like "today users don't like email and prefer Web based forums". We staged a mini revolt on the mailing list until a concesus was reached and Sun agreed to link from the official page to a community run mailing list, which we created at sourceforge and which I admin to this day. Sadly the volumen of messages has decreased over time but we still get a few messages a week. And when a newbie appears with a question, the "old gang" is there to reply - including a few ORCL devs-. Sadly they seldom stay or post again after their support question is answered. Maybe they unsubscribe after their problem is fixed. I haven't checked. Mailing lists were and are "communities", like a Citizens Band shared channel or HAM radio. Forums are more public support ticket systems. People come demanding solutions to their problems and then leave. There isn't - for most people a commitment to stay and participate in discussions to begin with. And the nature of the posting and reading method encourages that. Email lands in your inbox whether you like it or not. More nodding in agreement follows below. > I also love that I see interesting problems on mailing lists that I'd > never thought of or dealt with, and it's right there, in the list's mail > folder. I learn a LOT perusing those messages. Yes. Same. It's there, I can easily > read through the threads when I get a minute. And I don't have to > remember to fire up a new browser tab to parse them > Exactly. *waves fist at cloud* Cheers, FC -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, 2024-03-10 at 22:29 +, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: > It shortly became clear that the user experience of interacting with > Discourse via email was significantly worse than a traditional mailing > list, so a bunch of us set up a new list > (evolution-us...@lists.osuosl.org) where we continue on our merry way. > The Discourse instance still exists (the two mechanisms are entirely > separate with no cross-posting between them), but traffic on the > mailing list is noticeably greater than on the forum, which I think > says something. Actually, I always preferred usenet/newsgroups to any of these. It was a vastly superior way of handling lots of messages, threads, and different groups. But one problem was that so many people access them through a very badly designed email client that didn't do news properly (Outlook). Two large problems with the quick-to-use schemes (typically web forums) was that you (a) still don't avoid 100 people asking the same question (they don't read FAQs, and many FAQ collections are hideous to use), and (b) they don't stick around and contribute as their skill levels improve. It's hit and run, 100 times over. -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-1160.108.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu Jan 25 16:17:31 UTC 2024 x86_64 Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
Joe Zeff wrote (about web forums): > why don't you simply set as many of them as possible to email you > when there's a reply? Have you noticed how many of them won't let you reply to an email notification? Essentially you get a "someone left you a message" message, no details on what the message is, and no way to respond without going to the website. -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-1160.108.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu Jan 25 16:17:31 UTC 2024 x86_64 Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, 2024-03-10 at 11:32 -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > However, realize that you spend a long time setting all that up. > The subscriptions, filtering, how things look in your email client, etc. > For someone new or just wanting to ask a question or two, lists are > horrible. I say forums aren't that much better. Have you seen reddit? If you google a "how do I?" question, invariably reddit is the response, with some awfully crap information, and dozens of unrelated things. -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-1160.108.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu Jan 25 16:17:31 UTC 2024 x86_64 Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
Thomas Cameron: >> I hate using fora. I generally have to open a separate tab for each >> forum I'm on, and I'm on a LOT. Joe Zeff: > Why keep a separate tab for each forum open at all times? How many of > them do you actually need to look at each day? Firstly, I thoroughly agree with all of Thomas's points from his opening message. At one stage, I was on about 11 different (technical) mailing lists. It's less now, but even having to go to a few different sites to see what's going on, and tediously reply back in their nearly always badly designed form, is something I refuse to do. Not to mention they rarely allow you to save a draft, to work on a message that takes time to compile. Forcing to use an external editor for such things. And then you find you can't post something because you typed some < or > symbols in and their HTML message handler is crap. Facebook is the only web forum I participate in, and only because it can't be done in another way, and only because friends kept on dragging me into the damn thing. It's such a massive time-waster. -- uname -rsvp Linux 3.10.0-1160.108.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu Jan 25 16:17:31 UTC 2024 x86_64 Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted. I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 11:40:05 AM -0500, Thomas Cameron wrote: > > > Quick definition: fora is the plural of forum, as in a web based forum to > discuss a topic or technology, like https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/. > > Having said that... > > I love mailing lists. I have filters set up they silently go to the correct > mail folder, I can read through them at my leisure, and I only have to deal > with one client - my mail client. My mail client defaults to sane viewing > rules, threaded, in the order I prefer. It's the same experience across > every mailing list I'm a member of. I love that. It's very > accessibility-friendly. > > I hate using fora. Same here, I agree with everything you said. Thanks for posting it. It's a shame that email is pushed so hard on the sidelines, in general. Marco -- https://mfioretti.substack.com -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, 2024-03-10 at 11:40 -0500, Thomas Cameron wrote: > I love mailing lists. I have filters set up they silently go to the > correct mail folder, I can read through them at my leisure, and I > only > have to deal with one client - my mail client. My mail client > defaults > to sane viewing rules, threaded, in the order I prefer. It's the same > experience across every mailing list I'm a member of. I love that. > It's > very accessibility-friendly. +1 Not long ago the Gnome Project decided to stop supporting a number of mailing lists, including the list for Evolution, in favour of an instance of the Discourse web forum. We were told that a forum could provide everything a list provided, and you could even interact with it via email, so clearly it was a Good Thing. It shortly became clear that the user experience of interacting with Discourse via email was significantly worse than a traditional mailing list, so a bunch of us set up a new list (evolution-us...@lists.osuosl.org) where we continue on our merry way. The Discourse instance still exists (the two mechanisms are entirely separate with no cross-posting between them), but traffic on the mailing list is noticeably greater than on the forum, which I think says something. poc -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Email Balkanization (was Re: Fora vs. mailing lists)
On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 22:23:04 + Barry wrote: > You log in once only, the login is remembered in a cookie. > Just only and close the tab as needed. On some forums, not on others. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Email Balkanization (was Re: Fora vs. mailing lists)
> On 10 Mar 2024, at 20:03, Thomas Cameron > wrote: > > Basically, the fora require you to open a browser/tab, log in, and only > *then* can you read your message You log in once only, the login is remembered in a cookie. Just only and close the tab as needed. Barry -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
> On 10 Mar 2024, at 19:21, Thomas Cameron > wrote: > > For fora, I have to explicitly remember that I've even posted something > (which is often a problem due to the ADHD), then open a new browser or tab, > go to the forum, log in, find my message, and see if there are any responses > or whatever. You can set things up to email about a thread you started or replied to that has activity. Personally I prefer the forums for a couple of reasons, I can edit out my typos and thinkos. It formats code and logs nicely. I am also in the old man camp these days, been using email for ever. I have a lot of email lists I am subscribed to and read as well. Barry -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 21:19:27 +0100 wwp wrote: > Tried fora a a while when I was forced to and finally gave up with 80% > of them So who's working on a web forum/email interface that is totally independent of the web forum so the forum couldn't stop you from using email even if they wanted to? Seems doable, just need it to log into the web forum and extract replies to interesting threads. You'd only need to support the various quirks of the 4,627 different forums :-). -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
Hello Thomas, On Sun, 10 Mar 2024 11:40:05 -0500 Thomas Cameron wrote: > > > Quick definition: fora is the plural of forum, as in a web based forum to > discuss a topic or technology, like https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/. > > Having said that... > > I love mailing lists. I have filters set up they silently go to the correct > mail folder, I can read [snip] In agreement with 100% of what you wrote there. Tried fora a a while when I was forced to and finally gave up with 80% of them, cutting away from topics I was following. It forced me to abandon few things, the good point is that it gave me more time for disconnected activities, which could be a not-so-minor turn in life. Regards, -- wwp https://useplaintext.email/ pgphDid8YrQV2.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Email Balkanization (was Re: Fora vs. mailing lists)
On 3/10/24 14:17, Dave Close wrote: To me the analogy is, in the olden days, a company sending you postal mail in care of the local post office, the PO sending you a post card that something has arrived, and you having to go to the PO and show your identification to retrieve the item. No one would have tolerated that situation; why do we tolerate it on the Internet? This is a GREAT analogy. You're absolutely right. Basically, the fora require you to open a browser/tab, log in, and only *then* can you read your message. With email, it's passive. It comes in, you scan the subject, and decide what to do - discard, read, respond, or archive. No hoops to jump through, and you don't have to open another app to deal with it. -- Thomas -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 03/10/2024 01:46 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote: On 3/10/24 14:39, Thomas Cameron wrote: ... but that's always the case with the myriad of fora which which I interact. Correction, I meant to write "that's not* always the case..." OK, fair enough. But you still don't need to keep tabs constantly open for those that do, and probably don't need to be checking those that don't more than once an hour at most. Remember, the more time you spend checking for replies, the less time you have to be productive on other tasks. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 03/10/2024 01:39 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote: Where did I write that I did that at all? The Fedora forum *can* send emails, as Kevin pointed out, but that's always the case with the myriad of fora which which I interact. If so, as I pointed out before, you don't need to keep all of those tabs open, which is what you're objecting to. I do understand your point, I just think you're wrong. -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 3/10/24 14:39, Thomas Cameron wrote: ... but that's always the case with the myriad of fora which which I interact. Correction, I meant to write "that's not* always the case..." -- Thomas -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 3/10/24 14:32, Joe Zeff wrote: On 03/10/2024 01:20 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote: I'm not sure why you're refusing to understand my point here. Oh, I understand your point, I just think that you're going out of your way to make your life more difficult than it needs to be. Instead of keeping each forum open on a tab and obsessively going back and forth watching for replies and getting far less useful work done than you could, why don't you simply set as many of them as possible to email you when there's a reply? I'm reading this: Instead of keeping each forum open on a tab and obsessively going back and forth watching for replies Where did I write that I did that at all? The Fedora forum *can* send emails, as Kevin pointed out, but that's always the case with the myriad of fora which which I interact. Again, you're intentionally refusing to understand what I said. I won't be responding to further silliness. -- Thomas -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 03/10/2024 01:20 PM, Thomas Cameron wrote: I'm not sure why you're refusing to understand my point here. Oh, I understand your point, I just think that you're going out of your way to make your life more difficult than it needs to be. Instead of keeping each forum open on a tab and obsessively going back and forth watching for replies and getting far less useful work done than you could, why don't you simply set as many of them as possible to email you when there's a reply? -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 3/10/24 13:32, Kevin Fenzi wrote: So, I agree with you about the push vs pull factor, so I interact with discussion.fedoraproject.org via email. https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/guide-to-interacting-with-this-site-by-email/25960 You can decide what tags you want to 'subscribe' to, it sends emails with list-id headers, you can filter them, reply to them, etc. There are some drawbacks: If you want to start a thread you have to do that with the web interface (so you can specify the tags), etc. Of course that won't work for many, but for people who have a large email infrastructure setup it might be a better way to interact with it. kevin Kevin, I'm gonna have to buy you your favorite beverage if I see you at Summit or SCALE or TXLF, man. I wasn't aware of the email functionality, and I'm absolutely going to dig into it. Thank you SO MUCH for posting this! -- Thanks! Thomas -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 3/10/24 12:58, Joe Zeff wrote: You only need to have a tab open for a forum when you're actively using it. Why are you going out of your way to make your life difficult? I'm not sure why you're refusing to understand my point here. It's that, in an email list, it's all in one place, and it's passive. It comes to me in an app I already have open all the time. I get a notification, and I can check it and decide whether to take action. For fora, I have to explicitly remember that I've even posted something (which is often a problem due to the ADHD), then open a new browser or tab, go to the forum, log in, find my message, and see if there are any responses or whatever. If you can't see the difference, I honestly don't know what to tell you. -- Thomas -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Email Balkanization (was Re: Fora vs. mailing lists)
Thomas Cameron wrote: > Well said. I'm in full agreement. I see a possibly related condition that also irritates me. The Balkanization of "email" (quotes deliberate). You want to send an email message to some company but you don't know their address. You check their web site and find a page, "send us email". But it doesn't give you an address, just a web form. You have no easy way to keep a copy of your message. If they reply, you have to go back to their web site to read it. In many cases, that means you have to log in before you can read a reply, or even to send the message initially. This is NOT email, folks. To me the analogy is, in the olden days, a company sending you postal mail in care of the local post office, the PO sending you a post card that something has arrived, and you having to go to the PO and show your identification to retrieve the item. No one would have tolerated that situation; why do we tolerate it on the Internet? I get that the design of Internet email was not well done initially. Designers had no thought of future integrity or security problems. Solutions to those problems have been developed but require users to be at least semi-intelligent. Since people read email using a web interface that hides much of the information useful for identifying spam, it seems to me that those web systems should make the use of proper encryption techniques to identify senders and recipients easy when that is appropriate. -- Dave Close, Compata, Irvine CA +1 714 434 7359 d...@compata.com dhcl...@alumni.caltech.edu "Thoughts, like fleas, jump from man to man, but they don't bite everybody." -- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 3/10/24 12:40, Thomas Cameron wrote: Am I the only one who feels this way? Has the day finally come where I'm just old and set in my ways? Are there others who prefer mailing lists to fora? I agree with all you said. I've been on the Internet a long time. Heck, anyone remember bang paths? I'm a retied IT systems admin and have always subscribed to multiple mailing lists depending on what my job/interests were at the time. I never found it a hassle to set up filters on my gmail account or to set up procmail filters on my home imap server where I consolidate mail from a few gmail accounts and my ISP's email via fetchmail. For me, it just seems more convenient to use, basically for all the reasons the OP noted. I guess I'm also old and set in my ways. Charlie Dennett -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 11:40:05AM -0500, Thomas Cameron wrote: > > > Quick definition: fora is the plural of forum, as in a web based forum to > discuss a topic or technology, like https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/. > > Having said that... > > I love mailing lists. I have filters set up they silently go to the correct > mail folder, I can read through them at my leisure, and I only have to deal > with one client - my mail client. My mail client defaults to sane viewing > rules, threaded, in the order I prefer. It's the same experience across > every mailing list I'm a member of. I love that. It's very > accessibility-friendly. Yep. Same here. However, realize that you spend a long time setting all that up. The subscriptions, filtering, how things look in your email client, etc. For someone new or just wanting to ask a question or two, lists are horrible. > I hate using fora. I generally have to open a separate tab for each forum > I'm on, and I'm on a LOT. And I have to go out of my way to even remember > all the fora I am a member of. For those of us who are members of a bunch, > it's kind of a beating - especially if you're an ADHD person, like me. I get > that I can (sometimes) set up email notifications when there are responses > to my posts or comments, but... if we're already emailing forum members, why > the heck don't we just use email lists? Because it's not great for new people/casual questions, it lacks ability to do things like merge threads that are about the same thing, etc. It's easy to spam lists, harder to do so on a fora. email is becoming more and more difficult due to the giant walled gardens of gmail/microsoft and I could go on... > I also love that I see interesting problems on mailing lists that I'd never > thought of or dealt with, and it's right there, in the list's mail folder. I > learn a LOT perusing those messages. It's there, I can easily read through > the threads when I get a minute. And I don't have to remember to fire up a > new browser tab to parse them. > > The whole "fora are an archive" argument is kinda nonsensical, since mailing > lists are generally archived on the web, as well. In my experience, mailing > list archives are easier to search than a forum. > > I get the sense that moving from email lists to fora was a move to force > folks to go to a web site to drive advertising. I kinda hate that. When Red > Hat moved from email lists to fora (log in required), I got the sense that > it was really to gather information about who was interacting with their web > site. Ditto pretty much every other vendor who moved from email lists to web > based fora - this isn't a Red Hat or Fedora specific thing. That might be a general trend (I don't know), but has nothing to do with Fedora's discourse instance. There's no ads or extra monitoring that I can think of. > Am I the only one who feels this way? Has the day finally come where I'm > just old and set in my ways? Are there others who prefer mailing lists to > fora? > > To be clear, I am not bashing fora, per se - I'm just saying that for me, > they're not NEARLY as easy to deal with as email lists. If you like fora, > that's awesome. I'm not attacking you. Let's nip that in the bud. I'm not > looking for a flame war, just trying to see if other feel the same way. > Let's keep it civil. So, I agree with you about the push vs pull factor, so I interact with discussion.fedoraproject.org via email. :) https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/guide-to-interacting-with-this-site-by-email/25960 You can decide what tags you want to 'subscribe' to, it sends emails with list-id headers, you can filter them, reply to them, etc. There are some drawbacks: If you want to start a thread you have to do that with the web interface (so you can specify the tags), etc. Of course that won't work for many, but for people who have a large email infrastructure setup it might be a better way to interact with it. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 2024-03-10 12:40, Thomas Cameron wrote: Quick definition: fora is the plural of forum, as in a web based forum to discuss a topic or technology, like https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/. Having said that... I love mailing lists. I have filters set up they silently go to the correct mail folder, I can read through them at my leisure, and I only have to deal with one client - my mail client. My mail client defaults to sane viewing rules, threaded, in the order I prefer. It's the same experience across every mailing list I'm a member of. I love that. It's very accessibility-friendly. I hate using fora. I generally have to open a separate tab for each forum I'm on, and I'm on a LOT. And I have to go out of my way to even remember all the fora I am a member of. For those of us who are members of a bunch, it's kind of a beating - especially if you're an ADHD person, like me. I get that I can (sometimes) set up email notifications when there are responses to my posts or comments, but... if we're already emailing forum members, why the heck don't we just use email lists? I also love that I see interesting problems on mailing lists that I'd never thought of or dealt with, and it's right there, in the list's mail folder. I learn a LOT perusing those messages. It's there, I can easily read through the threads when I get a minute. And I don't have to remember to fire up a new browser tab to parse them. The whole "fora are an archive" argument is kinda nonsensical, since mailing lists are generally archived on the web, as well. In my experience, mailing list archives are easier to search than a forum. I get the sense that moving from email lists to fora was a move to force folks to go to a web site to drive advertising. I kinda hate that. When Red Hat moved from email lists to fora (log in required), I got the sense that it was really to gather information about who was interacting with their web site. Ditto pretty much every other vendor who moved from email lists to web based fora - this isn't a Red Hat or Fedora specific thing. Am I the only one who feels this way? Has the day finally come where I'm just old and set in my ways? Are there others who prefer mailing lists to fora? To be clear, I am not bashing fora, per se - I'm just saying that for me, they're not NEARLY as easy to deal with as email lists. If you like fora, that's awesome. I'm not attacking you. Let's nip that in the bud. I'm not looking for a flame war, just trying to see if other feel the same way. Let's keep it civil. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I just don't see what coud we do about it. Cheers Frank -- -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 03/10/2024 11:14 AM, Thomas Cameron wrote: I'm not saying that. What I AM saying, is that every time I need to go to a forum, I have to open a separate tab. It's a pain. You only need to have a tab open for a forum when you're actively using it. Why are you going out of your way to make your life difficult? -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 3/10/24 09:40, Thomas Cameron wrote: Quick definition: fora is the plural of forum, as in a web based forum to discuss a topic or technology, like https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/. Having said that... I love mailing lists. I have filters set up they silently go to the correct mail folder, I can read through them at my leisure, and I only have to deal with one client - my mail client. My mail client defaults to sane viewing rules, threaded, in the order I prefer. It's the same experience across every mailing list I'm a member of. I love that. It's very accessibility-friendly. I hate using fora. I generally have to open a separate tab for each forum I'm on, and I'm on a LOT. And I have to go out of my way to even remember all the fora I am a member of. For those of us who are members of a bunch, it's kind of a beating - especially if you're an ADHD person, like me. I get that I can (sometimes) set up email notifications when there are responses to my posts or comments, but... if we're already emailing forum members, why the heck don't we just use email lists? I also love that I see interesting problems on mailing lists that I'd never thought of or dealt with, and it's right there, in the list's mail folder. I learn a LOT perusing those messages. It's there, I can easily read through the threads when I get a minute. And I don't have to remember to fire up a new browser tab to parse them. The whole "fora are an archive" argument is kinda nonsensical, since mailing lists are generally archived on the web, as well. In my experience, mailing list archives are easier to search than a forum. I get the sense that moving from email lists to fora was a move to force folks to go to a web site to drive advertising. I kinda hate that. When Red Hat moved from email lists to fora (log in required), I got the sense that it was really to gather information about who was interacting with their web site. Ditto pretty much every other vendor who moved from email lists to web based fora - this isn't a Red Hat or Fedora specific thing. Am I the only one who feels this way? Has the day finally come where I'm just old and set in my ways? Are there others who prefer mailing lists to fora? To be clear, I am not bashing fora, per se - I'm just saying that for me, they're not NEARLY as easy to deal with as email lists. If you like fora, that's awesome. I'm not attacking you. Let's nip that in the bud. I'm not looking for a flame war, just trying to see if other feel the same way. Let's keep it civil. Thank you for posting this. I could not agree more. After Barry's post "Re: ghost town" I visited the forum. It's pretty. Lot of wasted space. When I opened a "thread" there didn't seem to be a way to close it. That lead to lots of scrolling. Lots. When I stretched my always open mail client to the same size as the forum I had more than 50 threads listed. The forum had eight. I can only speculate because I use a desktop vis-à-vis a cellphone so maybe I'm missing something that makes web forums easier and mailing lists more difficult for those users. But all in all, I concur with Thomas' well written opinion, especially his comment regarding list archives. If the mailing list were to atrophy from lack of users it would become useless to me and I would fade away from the Fedora scene. Mike Wright -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 3/10/24 12:04, Joe Zeff wrote: Why keep a separate tab for each forum open at all times? How many of them do you actually need to look at each day? I'm not saying that. What I AM saying, is that every time I need to go to a forum, I have to open a separate tab. It's a pain. Also, if I have a mail folder where my list traffic goes, I see that there are messages. It's passive. My email is always open. But if I want to catch up on fora, it's a separate process, opening a separate tab, for EVERY forum. Am I making the distinction clear? Inbound email is passive, and super easy to catch up on. Going to a forum is an active, outbound process that I have to remember to do. Again, it's not a dig on fora, it's a dig on the process. Active vs. passive. -- Thomas -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Re: Fora vs. mailing lists
On 03/10/2024 10:40 AM, Thomas Cameron wrote: I hate using fora. I generally have to open a separate tab for each forum I'm on, and I'm on a LOT. Why keep a separate tab for each forum open at all times? How many of them do you actually need to look at each day? -- ___ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
