Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Clément David]

Hello,

Le dimanche 27 mai 2018 à 12:20 +0200, Samuel Gougeon a écrit :
> Le 27/05/2018 à 10:52, Jens Simon Strom a écrit :
> > Hi,
> > The `!` usage to recall a previous command is discussed here in detail. I 
> > don't miss it.  My
> > question was different.
>  
> I was answering to the "What's your opinion?" question by Clément.
> 
> Yes, i definitely agree on that both questions are completely independent, 
> and that since the fix
> for variables names is deemed easy, it should be applied ASAP and fastly made 
> available in the
> continuous built.

"Fixes Parser to Accept "!" in Variable Names
 " has been merged through
https://codereview.scilab.org/#/c/20069/ .

Thanks for your contribution !

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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Samuel Gougeon]

Le 26/05/2018 à 14:10, Samuel Gougeon a écrit :

Le 25/05/2018 à 11:02, Samuel Gougeon a écrit :

Hello,

Le 25/05/2018 à 10:45, Clément David a écrit :

Hi,

Thanks for your experimental work on that topic. I guess we could 
merge the parser fix easily
however the `!` usage to recall a previous command will remain 
problematic. This usage does not seem
to be documented somewhere in the help page, maybe we could discard 
it. What's your opinion on that

?


It is an historical and standard feature, used not only in Scilab 
language.

Please see the entry http://bugzilla.scilab.org/10776

The only issue is that it is still undocumented. It could be 
described in the Console's page.


"The only issue" : hmm, not really. Even if the missing documentation 
is the main one, IMO this (already) very handy feature could be 
improved in at least two ways:


  * when no match is found in the history, nothing happens. For people
who does not know the feature (or who has forgotten that it is
available), this could be easily puzzling and felt as a bug.
=> when no match is found, Scilab shall print a message "No match
found in history"

  * A listbox listing matches could be displayed, to select the only
entry searched for.
This might be done in two ways :

  o either typing "!" + one char as the very first characters
would enter a completion mode based on the history, with
matches listed in a listbox as described hereabove

  o or this could be done only after validating with , or
CTRL+space as for the feature completion (but here targeted to
the history with the leading "!")

If a completion mode is implemented, then the message "no match found 
in history" could be displayed in the listbox instead of in the 
console (note that the general feature completion triggered with 
CTRL+space displays nothing when no match is found).


This request for improvements is now reported here: 
http://bugzilla.scilab.org/15592


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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Rafael Guerra]

Another two cents.
Allowing a leading exclamation mark in variable names seems to be, IMHO, a bad 
idea because (1) most computer languages do not seem to allow it and (2) some 
when encountering it, will interpret as logical negation.

Regards,
Rafael

From: users [mailto:users-boun...@lists.scilab.org] On Behalf Of Samuel Gougeon
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2018 5:14 PM
To: Users mailing list for Scilab <users@lists.scilab.org>
Subject: Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

Le 27/05/2018 à 16:30, Wozai a écrit :

Dear Samuel,



my point is, it wasn't possible to execute "!A=1" in Scilab 5.x (without 
prepending

a space) and IMHO one should really *improve* the situation in Scilab 6,

rather than just restoring the status quo.

Thank you Wozai for having confirmed my reading of your messages.

What Jens and i see is that Scilab 6 has not kept a status quo: by removing "!" 
from allowed characters, and by not fixing this, Scilab 6 is downgraded now for 
almost 3 years it is released. Unfortunately, this is not a status quo.

I definitively agree that improving Scilab is necessary. This is why i am 
involved in it. But i definitely disagree about the fact that what is 
considered as an improvement or a downgrade is the decision of one person or a 
very few people just declaring that "This is better than existing features. It 
must be changed!" (with a frequent trailing exclamation mark).

Other users than you and me, more numerous than you alone, could easily 
consider that keeping the usage of "!" as the history call is preferable, 
because they use to use it in other environments, and then would consider this 
change as a regression, not an improvement.

You seem to consider that using very occasionally a leading space to address a 
variable is really a big deal. But how many coders name preferably their 
variables with a leading "!" such that having to prepend a space actually 
becomes a big deal? I am sorry, but in all the external codes i had to work on 
for 20 years, variables with a leading "!" were rare enough that i don't 
remember having met a single one.

The usual way to propose an improvement is to post a wish on Bugzilla. Yours is 
welcome!

I let Clement pushing the fix for the parser, and i hope it will be 
straightforwardly merged.

I will wait 2-3 weeks before documenting the history recall and CTRL+Space 
completion
features in the Console page. If within this time it is decided to change for 
":", the page won't
have to be possibly updated afterwards.

Samuel
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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Samuel Gougeon]

Le 27/05/2018 à 16:30, Wozai a écrit :

Dear Samuel,

my point is, it wasn't possible to execute "!A=1" in Scilab 5.x (without 
prepending
a space) and IMHO one should really *improve* the situation in Scilab 6,
rather than just restoring the status quo.


Thank you Wozai for having confirmed my reading of your messages.

What Jens and i see is that Scilab 6 has not kept a status quo: by 
removing "!" from allowed characters, and by not fixing this, Scilab 6 
is downgraded now for almost 3 years it is released. Unfortunately, this 
is not a status quo.


I definitively agree that improving Scilab is necessary. This is why i 
am involved in it. But i definitely disagree about the fact that what is 
considered as an improvement or a downgrade is the decision of one 
person or a very few people just declaring that "This is better than 
existing features. It must be changed!" (with a frequent trailing 
exclamation mark).


Other users than you and me, more numerous than you alone, could easily 
consider that keeping the usage of "!" as the history call is 
preferable, because they use to use it in other environments, and then 
would consider this change as a *regression*, not an improvement.


You seem to consider that using very occasionally a leading space to 
address a variable is really a big deal. But how many coders name 
preferably their variables with a leading "!" such that having to 
prepend a space actually becomes a big deal? I am sorry, but in all the 
external codes i had to work on for 20 years, variables with a leading 
"!" were rare enough that i don't remember having met a single one.


The usual way to propose an improvement is to post a wish on Bugzilla. 
Yours is welcome!


I let Clement pushing the fix for the parser, and i hope it will be 
straightforwardly merged.


I will wait 2-3 weeks before documenting the history recall and 
CTRL+Space completion
features in the Console page. If within this time it is decided to 
change for ":", the page won't

have to be possibly updated afterwards.

Samuel
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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Wozai]

Dear Samuel,

my point is, it wasn't possible to execute "!A=1" in Scilab 5.x (without
prepending
a space) and IMHO one should really *improve* the situation in Scilab 6,
rather than
just restoring the status quo.

Cheers,

Wozai




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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Samuel Gougeon]

Le 27/05/2018 à 13:45, Wozai a écrit :

Hi,

In theory they are "completely independent", but currently as a matter of
fact there is a clash wrt. to the semantics of the "!" character.


Wozai, i am afraid i don't catch your point.
Your point is not specifically about Scilab 6, is it?
You already disagreed with Scilab 5 behavior about using "!" to recall 
the history, while "!" was actually accepted in identifiers, didn't you?


If so, then, your point is clearly distinct from Jens (and any user 
using variable names including "!") urgent claim,

that is specific to a Scilab 5 => 6 change.

If "!" is reintroduced among allowed characters in identifiers -- 
including as the first one --,
and "!" is not changed into ":" to recall the history, do we get with 
the fixed Scilab 6 anything else than the Scilab < 6 behavior?


Samuel

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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Wozai]

Hi,

In theory they are "completely independent", but currently as a matter of
fact there is a clash wrt. to the
semantics of the "!" character.

Does is it really make sense allowing "!" in identifier names, while keeping
the the current history
recall feature, and assuming, that the user prepends a space in front of
expressions like "!A=1" to
get them executed in the Java console?

My conclusion: if both features are going to be kept, then the clash wrt "!"
should be resolved ASAP,
anyhow.

Cheers,

Wozai




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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Samuel Gougeon]

Le 27/05/2018 à 10:52, Jens Simon Strom a écrit :

Hi,
The `!` usage to recall a previous command is discussed here in 
detail. I don't miss it.  My question was different.


I was answering to the "What's your opinion?" question by Clément.

Yes, i definitely agree on that both questions are completely 
independent, and that since the fix for variables names is deemed 
/easy/, it should be applied ASAP and fastly made available in the 
continuous built.


Regards
Samuel

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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Jens Simon Strom]

Hi,
The `!` usage to recall a previous command is discussed here in detail. 
I don't miss it.  My question was different.


How about implementing again the "!" as a valid character in variable 
names as documented? How long is the reasonable response time for fixing 
the reported bug?


Regards Jens

--




Am 26.05.2018 14:10, schrieb Samuel Gougeon:

Le 25/05/2018 à 11:02, Samuel Gougeon a écrit :

Hello,

Le 25/05/2018 à 10:45, Clément David a écrit :

Hi,

Thanks for your experimental work on that topic. I guess we could 
merge the parser fix easily
however the `!` usage to recall a previous command will remain 
problematic. This usage does not seem
to be documented somewhere in the help page, maybe we could discard 
it. What's your opinion on that

?


It is an historical and standard feature, used not only in Scilab 
language.

Please see the entry http://bugzilla.scilab.org/10776

The only issue is that it is still undocumented. It could be 
described in the Console's page.


"The only issue" : hmm, not really. Even if the missing documentation 
is the main one, IMO this (already) very handy feature could be 
improved in at least two ways:


  * when no match is found in the history, nothing happens. For people
who does not know the feature (or who has forgotten that it is
available), this could be easily puzzling and felt as a bug.
=> when no match is found, Scilab shall print a message "No match
found in history"

  * A listbox listing matches could be displayed, to select the only
entry searched for.
This might be done in two ways :

  o either typing "!" + one char as the very first characters
would enter a completion mode based on the history, with
matches listed in a listbox as described hereabove

  o or this could be done only after validating with , or
CTRL+space as for the feature completion (but here targeted to
the history with the leading "!")

If a completion mode is implemented, then the message "no match found 
in history" could be displayed in the listbox instead of in the 
console (note that the general feature completion triggered with 
CTRL+space displays nothing when no match is found).


By the way, as for this "!" history recall, the existing interactive 
usage of the completion is not documented in the Console page. Let's 
add both in the page, as they presently are.


Regards
Samuel



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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Samuel Gougeon]

Le 25/05/2018 à 11:02, Samuel Gougeon a écrit :

Hello,

Le 25/05/2018 à 10:45, Clément David a écrit :

Hi,

Thanks for your experimental work on that topic. I guess we could 
merge the parser fix easily
however the `!` usage to recall a previous command will remain 
problematic. This usage does not seem
to be documented somewhere in the help page, maybe we could discard 
it. What's your opinion on that

?


It is an historical and standard feature, used not only in Scilab 
language.

Please see the entry http://bugzilla.scilab.org/10776

The only issue is that it is still undocumented. It could be described 
in the Console's page.


"The only issue" : hmm, not really. Even if the missing documentation is 
the main one, IMO this (already) very handy feature could be improved in 
at least two ways:


 * when no match is found in the history, nothing happens. For people
   who does not know the feature (or who has forgotten that it is
   available), this could be easily puzzling and felt as a bug.
   => when no match is found, Scilab shall print a message "No match
   found in history"

 * A listbox listing matches could be displayed, to select the only
   entry searched for.
   This might be done in two ways :

 o either typing "!" + one char as the very first characters would
   enter a completion mode based on the history, with matches
   listed in a listbox as described hereabove

 o or this could be done only after validating with , or
   CTRL+space as for the feature completion (but here targeted to
   the history with the leading "!")

If a completion mode is implemented, then the message "no match found in 
history" could be displayed in the listbox instead of in the console 
(note that the general feature completion triggered with CTRL+space 
displays nothing when no match is found).


By the way, as for this "!" history recall, the existing interactive 
usage of the completion is not documented in the Console page. Let's add 
both in the page, as they presently are.


Regards
Samuel

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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Samuel Gougeon]

Le 25/05/2018 à 11:08, Wozai a écrit :

Hi,

I think it should be possible to execute things like "!A=123" in the Java
Console.


Just prepend a space, and it works.

Samuel

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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Wozai]

Hi,

I think it should be possible to execute things like "!A=123" in the Java
Console.

Cheers,

Wozai



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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Samuel Gougeon]

Hello,

Le 25/05/2018 à 10:45, Clément David a écrit :

Hi,

Thanks for your experimental work on that topic. I guess we could merge the 
parser fix easily
however the `!` usage to recall a previous command will remain problematic. 
This usage does not seem
to be documented somewhere in the help page, maybe we could discard it. What's 
your opinion on that
?


It is an historical and standard feature, used not only in Scilab language.
Please see the entry http://bugzilla.scilab.org/10776

The only issue is that it is still undocumented. It could be described 
in the Console's page.


Samuel

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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Clément David]

Hi,

Thanks for your experimental work on that topic. I guess we could merge the 
parser fix easily
however the `!` usage to recall a previous command will remain problematic. 
This usage does not seem
to be documented somewhere in the help page, maybe we could discard it. What's 
your opinion on that
?

Thanks,

--
Clément

Le vendredi 25 mai 2018 à 01:17 -0700, Wozai a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> I have had the same problem, and found a solution (at least if you build
> scilab by yourself), apply the following changes to the source and compile
> Scilab.
> 
> 1.  Changes Hotey "!" to ":" for Recalling History in Java Console
>   
> 
> 2.  Fixes Parser to Accept "!" in Variable Names
>   
> 
> Of course the downside of this fixing approach would be, that your code only
> works in "your" Scilab.
>  
> Cheers,
> 
> Wozai
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Wozai]

Hi,

I have had the same problem, and found a solution (at least if you build
scilab by yourself), apply the following changes to the source and compile
Scilab.

1.  Changes Hotey "!" to ":" for Recalling History in Java Console
  

2.  Fixes Parser to Accept "!" in Variable Names
  

Of course the downside of this fixing approach would be, that your code only
works in "your" Scilab.
 
Cheers,

Wozai




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Re: [Scilab-users] Exclamation mark in variable names

[Samuel Gougeon]

Hello Jens,

Le 19/05/2018 à 12:35, Jens Simon Strom a écrit :

Hallo Scilab intimates,
Is *!a* a valid variable name in the latest version of Scilab?  
Vers. 6.0.1 sees an*Error: Unexpected token '!'*


Yes it is. You have reported it as the bug 15126 
, and Clement has 
confirmed to you that this naming should still be supported.


Regards
Samuel

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