Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-06 Thread Christopher Schultz
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Hash: SHA256

Chuck,

On 12/5/12 5:07 PM, Caldarale, Charles R wrote:
 From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] Subject: Re: [OT]
 Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)
 
 Too late (at least in the US); you just made it public...
 
 Shuks. Ok then, I'll have to be satisfied with the glory.
 
 The US patent law has changed (but may not go into effect until
 next year; not sure about the timing) so that credit is given to 
 first-to-file, rather than first-to-invent, regardless of public 
 disclosure.  So, you may still have time...

I need to file something similar to the following:

A method of arranging printed characters in sequence to facilitate
knowledge transfer

I'll proceed to sue everyone who uses written communication.

I'll bet I can file separate patents for each language and then slam
people with multiple patent violations: people always sound more
guilty when there are more counts to a violation. Which sounds more
plausible, Apple sues Samsung for violating a patent claim or Apple
sues Samsung for violating 1327 patent claims?

- -chris
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Re: Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread André Warnier

Christopher Schultz wrote:

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Will,

On 12/4/12 2:47 PM, Will Nordmeyer wrote:

Thanks for the quick response and the thoughts.  a 5 minute
timeout wouldn't be acceptable in our environment - theory being,
if user A pulls his smart card out (but didn't log out of the app),
and user B goes up to the machine within 5 minutes, he may have
access to someone else's account in the application.  So I was
really hoping there was some way to trigger the session to expire.


The only thing I can think of would be to have the web browser
complicit in the deal: if the browser can be configured to expire the
SSL session when the card is removed, then that is really the only
solution that will be truly secure.


I'll keep looking, or suggest to my dev team that they write a
little app that queries the card regularly and as soon as the card
can't be found, logs out.


Is it a valid use case to have the computer itself logged-in when the
card is removed? For instance, if you configured the machine to
auto-lock when the card was removed, then you might be able to do
other things, too (like kill the browser, which should kill the SSL
session).



Sorry for barging in where I know little myself.
In the thread Tomcat 7 SSL Session ID, a recent post by EJP may have a bearing on this 
discussion, maybe.


Other than that, and without any pretense at offering a solution to the present issue, 
maybe this is the point where one needs to step back and ask oneself if this is really a 
problem of the application.


If the environment is such that it is a concern that one might login using a card, then 
remove the card and walk away, leaving the workstation logged-in and a session open with 
some security-conscious application, for someone else to use at will, then maybe this is 
not a problem of the application at the other end, but a problem with the environment ?

What for example if that same person walks away while leaving their card in the 
reader ?



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Re: Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread Will Nordmeyer
On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Christopher Schultz
ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Will,

 On 12/4/12 2:47 PM, Will Nordmeyer wrote:
 Thanks for the quick response and the thoughts.  a 5 minute
 timeout wouldn't be acceptable in our environment - theory being,
 if user A pulls his smart card out (but didn't log out of the app),
 and user B goes up to the machine within 5 minutes, he may have
 access to someone else's account in the application.  So I was
 really hoping there was some way to trigger the session to expire.

 The only thing I can think of would be to have the web browser
 complicit in the deal: if the browser can be configured to expire the
 SSL session when the card is removed, then that is really the only
 solution that will be truly secure.

That's a potential, but there are quite a few clients so I'm not sure
we can impact the clients...  interesting scenario we've got.

 I'll keep looking, or suggest to my dev team that they write a
 little app that queries the card regularly and as soon as the card
 can't be found, logs out.

 Is it a valid use case to have the computer itself logged-in when the
 card is removed? For instance, if you configured the machine to
 auto-lock when the card was removed, then you might be able to do
 other things, too (like kill the browser, which should kill the SSL
 session).

Oddly enough, yes, it is a valid use case.  we have specific scenarios
where there are common use PCs that have a generic ID logged in, but
they use their CAC and the browser to access the web application.



 - -chris
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Re: Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread Christopher Schultz
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André,

On 12/5/12 3:12 AM, André Warnier wrote:
 Other than that, and without any pretense at offering a solution
 to the present issue, maybe this is the point where one needs to
 step back and ask oneself if this is really a problem of the
 application.

You're right: this is not a problem of the application (at least,
not the web application itself). Unfortunately, it's an operation
requirement which means it must be solved *somewhere*.

At this point, we're way off-topic where Tomcat is concerned. ;)

 If the environment is such that it is a concern that one might
 login using a card, then remove the card and walk away, leaving
 the workstation logged-in and a session open with some
 security-conscious application, for someone else to use at will,
 then maybe this is not a problem of the application at the other
 end, but a problem with the environment ? What for example if that
 same person walks away while leaving their card in the reader ?

Court martial. :)

- -chris
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Re: Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread Christopher Schultz
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Hash: SHA1

Will,

On 12/5/12 7:33 AM, Will Nordmeyer wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Christopher Schultz 
 ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote: Will,
 
 On 12/4/12 2:47 PM, Will Nordmeyer wrote:
 Thanks for the quick response and the thoughts.  a 5 minute 
 timeout wouldn't be acceptable in our environment - theory
 being, if user A pulls his smart card out (but didn't log out
 of the app), and user B goes up to the machine within 5
 minutes, he may have access to someone else's account in the
 application.  So I was really hoping there was some way to
 trigger the session to expire.
 
 The only thing I can think of would be to have the web browser 
 complicit in the deal: if the browser can be configured to expire
 the SSL session when the card is removed, then that is really the
 only solution that will be truly secure.
 
 That's a potential, but there are quite a few clients so I'm not
 sure we can impact the clients...  interesting scenario we've
 got.
 
 I'll keep looking, or suggest to my dev team that they write
 a little app that queries the card regularly and as soon as
 the card can't be found, logs out.
 
 Is it a valid use case to have the computer itself logged-in when
 the card is removed? For instance, if you configured the machine
 to auto-lock when the card was removed, then you might be able to
 do other things, too (like kill the browser, which should kill the
 SSL session).
 
 Oddly enough, yes, it is a valid use case.  we have specific
 scenarios where there are common use PCs that have a generic ID
 logged in, but they use their CAC and the browser to access the
 web application.

Okay, good to know. Well, the OS can certainly detect when the CAC has
been removed. I think it's time to talk to some of the desktop IT
folks to see what your options are. This is something that is going to
have to be solved on the client side, not the server side.

Now, if the CAC is definitely required in order to establish an SSL
connection (can you confirm that? It's kind of important for my whole
line of thinking, here), you could simply set the SSL session timeout
to something typically considered foolishly low (like 1 second).

That will significantly impact performance (every request will require
a new SSL key negotiation), but should ultimately fulfill your
requirement: the only way for a CAC to be removed yet still allow a
post-withdraw request would be if the new and old users were
face-to-face (discounting the usual edge-cases that crop-up on this
list occasionally, like unlikely quantum phenomena, interference from
Time Lords, etc.).

It cannot, of course, prevent any physical attack (or mistake) on the
client side such as one user taking another's CAC or a user forgetting
to remove the card from the slot before leaving a terminal. You can
fix those vectors with robust cables attaching the CAC to the user's
pelvic bone, which I hear will be implemented starting in 2013.

- -chris
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Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread André Warnier

Will Nordmeyer wrote:
...




Oddly enough, yes, it is a valid use case.  we have specific scenarios
where there are common use PCs that have a generic ID logged in, 




As far as I remember the classics, that in itself is already a flaw with regard to 
security, no ?


 but
 they use their CAC and the browser to access the web application.

Presumably, your application is not the only one running on these workstations. So any 
other application must have similar issues.  How do they resolve it ?


Assuming that there are many client workstations, and assuming that you cannot control 
what's installed on them, then one way I can think of - but it is quite heavy - is to have 
every single one of your pages contain a java applet running at all times, which checks 
the presence of the card and does something drastic (or doesn't do something vital) in 
case the card isn't there, and which causes the server to drop the session)


(I mention the doesn't do bit, to avoid the user simply disabling java in the 
browser)

One way I could imagine this, would be to have the applet establish its own connection to 
the server (maybe on a different port, and send a regular ping to another application on 
the server which would keep track of valid sessions.  Should the ping no longer come, this 
application would somehow tell the main one to abort the session.
It all sounds a bit complicated, but maybe in a very security-conscious environment, this 
would be sellable ? (*)


Note that in order for the browser-based java applet to gain access to the local 
card-reader, may require some special security settings too.



(*) Come to think of it, it would be rather universal as a solution. and not so complex to 
set up. I may have to patent this idea...


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Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread David kerber

On 12/5/2012 1:35 PM, André Warnier wrote:

...


(*) Come to think of it, it would be rather universal as a solution. and
not so complex to set up. I may have to patent this idea...


Too late (at least in the US); you just made it public...


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Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread André Warnier

David kerber wrote:

On 12/5/2012 1:35 PM, André Warnier wrote:

...


(*) Come to think of it, it would be rather universal as a solution. and
not so complex to set up. I may have to patent this idea...


Too late (at least in the US); you just made it public...


Shuks. Ok then, I'll have to be satisfied with the glory.


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Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread David kerber

On 12/5/2012 4:18 PM, André Warnier wrote:

David kerber wrote:

On 12/5/2012 1:35 PM, André Warnier wrote:

...


(*) Come to think of it, it would be rather universal as a solution. and
not so complex to set up. I may have to patent this idea...


Too late (at least in the US); you just made it public...


Shuks. Ok then, I'll have to be satisfied with the glory.


You could always try a European patent; I'm not sure what their patent 
rules are...   :-D



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Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread André Warnier

David kerber wrote:

On 12/5/2012 4:18 PM, André Warnier wrote:

David kerber wrote:

On 12/5/2012 1:35 PM, André Warnier wrote:

...

(*) Come to think of it, it would be rather universal as a solution. 
and

not so complex to set up. I may have to patent this idea...


Too late (at least in the US); you just made it public...


Shuks. Ok then, I'll have to be satisfied with the glory.


You could always try a European patent; I'm not sure what their patent 
rules are...   :-D


When you consider that Amazon could patent the 1-click, and Apple a black screen with 
round corners, I'm not sure that there are any rules, anywhere.



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RE: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread Caldarale, Charles R
 From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] 
 Subject: Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

  Too late (at least in the US); you just made it public...

 Shuks. Ok then, I'll have to be satisfied with the glory.

The US patent law has changed (but may not go into effect until next year; not 
sure about the timing) so that credit is given to first-to-file, rather than 
first-to-invent, regardless of public disclosure.  So, you may still have 
time...

 - Chuck


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Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-05 Thread André Warnier

Caldarale, Charles R wrote:
From: André Warnier [mailto:a...@ice-sa.com] 
Subject: Re: [OT] Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)



Too late (at least in the US); you just made it public...



Shuks. Ok then, I'll have to be satisfied with the glory.


The US patent law has changed (but may not go into effect until next year; not 
sure about the timing) so that credit is given to first-to-file, rather than 
first-to-invent, regardless of public disclosure.  So, you may still have 
time...



I'll probably need a more complete description, possibly even working code.
And I'm not so confident in my Java skills.
Any volunteer for helping and sharing in the glory, and maybe even the bucks 
then ?

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Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-04 Thread Will Nordmeyer
First off, thanks to all for the assistance getting my other tomcat
CRL issues working.  Converted to APR and tcnative and things seem to
be loading, running well now.

Now, the question has come up - what happens when a user authenticates
with their Smart Card, but then pulls their card and walks away.  Is
there a way for Tomcat to detect such an event on the client and
terminate/timeout the session?

In the googling I've done, I've seen suggestions about writing a
little java app that runs within our application and periodically
pulls something from the SmartCard - when the app fails to get that
piece of info, it terminates the app.

Is that the way to go?  (and if so, is there sample code - I know this
isn't a java forum, but if someone's invented this wheel before, that
would be great).

--Will

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Re: Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-04 Thread Christopher Schultz
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Will,

On 12/4/12 12:08 PM, Will Nordmeyer wrote:
 First off, thanks to all for the assistance getting my other
 tomcat CRL issues working.  Converted to APR and tcnative and
 things seem to be loading, running well now.
 
 Now, the question has come up - what happens when a user
 authenticates with their Smart Card, but then pulls their card and
 walks away.  Is there a way for Tomcat to detect such an event on
 the client and terminate/timeout the session?
 
 In the googling I've done, I've seen suggestions about writing a 
 little java app that runs within our application and periodically 
 pulls something from the SmartCard - when the app fails to get
 that piece of info, it terminates the app.
 
 Is that the way to go?  (and if so, is there sample code - I know
 this isn't a java forum, but if someone's invented this wheel
 before, that would be great).

I'm certainly no SSL expert (especially with SmartCards involved), but
if the SmartCard is required in order to set up an SSL session, you
could set the SSL session timeout to some small-ish value (say, 10
minutes -- the default is 24 hours) and then require a new SSL session
to be established every 10 minutes. That would require the SmartCard
to be present for that renegotiation (this is my assumption).

That way, you don't have to write any new software and maintain it on
the client.

Check out the sessionTimeout attribute on the HTTP/SSL connector.

Hmm... I just re-checked and that option is currently only available
for the pure-Java connectors -- and you just switched to APR to get
your huge CRLs working. :(

OpenSSL does have an SSL_CTX_set_timeout method, but it doesn't have
any support through tcnative. If this is something that would help
you, please let me know and I'll take a stab at implementing a
tcnative method for this and then expose it through the Connector
configuration.

- -chris
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Re: Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-04 Thread Christopher Schultz
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Hash: SHA1

Will,

On 12/4/12 12:46 PM, Christopher Schultz wrote:
 On 12/4/12 12:08 PM, Will Nordmeyer wrote:
 First off, thanks to all for the assistance getting my other 
 tomcat CRL issues working.  Converted to APR and tcnative and 
 things seem to be loading, running well now.
 
 Now, the question has come up - what happens when a user 
 authenticates with their Smart Card, but then pulls their card
 and walks away.  Is there a way for Tomcat to detect such an
 event on the client and terminate/timeout the session?
 
 In the googling I've done, I've seen suggestions about writing a
  little java app that runs within our application and
 periodically pulls something from the SmartCard - when the app
 fails to get that piece of info, it terminates the app.
 
 Is that the way to go?  (and if so, is there sample code - I
 know this isn't a java forum, but if someone's invented this
 wheel before, that would be great).
 
 I'm certainly no SSL expert (especially with SmartCards involved),
 but if the SmartCard is required in order to set up an SSL session,
 you could set the SSL session timeout to some small-ish value (say,
 10 minutes -- the default is 24 hours) and then require a new SSL
 session to be established every 10 minutes. That would require the
 SmartCard to be present for that renegotiation (this is my
 assumption).
 
 That way, you don't have to write any new software and maintain it
 on the client.
 
 Check out the sessionTimeout attribute on the HTTP/SSL
 connector.
 
 Hmm... I just re-checked and that option is currently only
 available for the pure-Java connectors -- and you just switched to
 APR to get your huge CRLs working. :(
 
 OpenSSL does have an SSL_CTX_set_timeout method, but it doesn't
 have any support through tcnative. If this is something that would
 help you, please let me know and I'll take a stab at implementing
 a tcnative method for this and then expose it through the
 Connector configuration.

Answering my own question somewhat: the default SSL session timeout
for OpenSSL is actually 300 seconds (5 minutes) so that might work for
you.

Of course, I might be wrong about the session timeout requiring the
SmartCard to be present for renegotiation.

Let me know what you find out.

- -chris
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Re: Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-04 Thread Will Nordmeyer
On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 12:48 PM, Christopher Schultz
ch...@christopherschultz.net wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Will,

 On 12/4/12 12:46 PM, Christopher Schultz wrote:
 On 12/4/12 12:08 PM, Will Nordmeyer wrote:
 First off, thanks to all for the assistance getting my other
 tomcat CRL issues working.  Converted to APR and tcnative and
 things seem to be loading, running well now.

 Now, the question has come up - what happens when a user
 authenticates with their Smart Card, but then pulls their card
 and walks away.  Is there a way for Tomcat to detect such an
 event on the client and terminate/timeout the session?

 In the googling I've done, I've seen suggestions about writing a
  little java app that runs within our application and
 periodically pulls something from the SmartCard - when the app
 fails to get that piece of info, it terminates the app.

 Is that the way to go?  (and if so, is there sample code - I
 know this isn't a java forum, but if someone's invented this
 wheel before, that would be great).

 I'm certainly no SSL expert (especially with SmartCards involved),
 but if the SmartCard is required in order to set up an SSL session,
 you could set the SSL session timeout to some small-ish value (say,
 10 minutes -- the default is 24 hours) and then require a new SSL
 session to be established every 10 minutes. That would require the
 SmartCard to be present for that renegotiation (this is my
 assumption).

 That way, you don't have to write any new software and maintain it
 on the client.

 Check out the sessionTimeout attribute on the HTTP/SSL
 connector.

 Hmm... I just re-checked and that option is currently only
 available for the pure-Java connectors -- and you just switched to
 APR to get your huge CRLs working. :(

 OpenSSL does have an SSL_CTX_set_timeout method, but it doesn't
 have any support through tcnative. If this is something that would
 help you, please let me know and I'll take a stab at implementing
 a tcnative method for this and then expose it through the
 Connector configuration.

 Answering my own question somewhat: the default SSL session timeout
 for OpenSSL is actually 300 seconds (5 minutes) so that might work for
 you.

 Of course, I might be wrong about the session timeout requiring the
 SmartCard to be present for renegotiation.

 Let me know what you find out.

 - -chris
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Chris,

Thanks for the quick response and the thoughts.  a 5 minute timeout
wouldn't be acceptable in our environment - theory being, if user A
pulls his smart card out (but didn't log out of the app), and user B
goes up to the machine within 5 minutes, he may have access to someone
else's account in the application.  So I was really hoping there was
some way to trigger the session to expire.

I'll keep looking, or suggest to my dev team that they write a little
app that queries the card regularly and as soon as the card can't be
found, logs out.

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Re: Recognizing certificate removal (SmartCard)

2012-12-04 Thread Christopher Schultz
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Will,

On 12/4/12 2:47 PM, Will Nordmeyer wrote:
 Thanks for the quick response and the thoughts.  a 5 minute
 timeout wouldn't be acceptable in our environment - theory being,
 if user A pulls his smart card out (but didn't log out of the app),
 and user B goes up to the machine within 5 minutes, he may have
 access to someone else's account in the application.  So I was
 really hoping there was some way to trigger the session to expire.

The only thing I can think of would be to have the web browser
complicit in the deal: if the browser can be configured to expire the
SSL session when the card is removed, then that is really the only
solution that will be truly secure.

 I'll keep looking, or suggest to my dev team that they write a
 little app that queries the card regularly and as soon as the card
 can't be found, logs out.

Is it a valid use case to have the computer itself logged-in when the
card is removed? For instance, if you configured the machine to
auto-lock when the card was removed, then you might be able to do
other things, too (like kill the browser, which should kill the SSL
session).

- -chris
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