RE: [videoblogging] Re: DivX - Shameless Plug

[Jim Vinson]

We actually worked tightly with xvid
specifically so that xvid stream would work in all DivX decoders also. Xvid
obviously can’t license to CE manufacturers because of mpeg-la niceties
(mpeg-la is entitled to fees for just compiling the code). Competeing
development towards commons goals with xvid has helped us both. We are forced
to keep strong development and they are insured of hardware support. (If you
look in the code you will see they include DivX certified profiles inside xvid).
So for general purposes, there really isn’t a functional distinction between
xvid and divx.

 

There is a good chance the browser side
will come out in a few weeks (I am guessing right after everyone gets back from
new years).

 

Another arena is the online distribution.
That is still very early in the game. Who is to say that there won’t be a
lot of paid content in avi? In fact, in italt, there is already a good market
of DivX discs sold at retail establishments of current Hollywood
releases. In brazil,
they are included with new DVD players (sometimes three feature films per
disc). And these aren’t obscure titles. These are new release top tier
movies. I know that itunes has sold millions of music videos, but on a sheer
number of minutes scale, they are still tens if not hundreds of billions of
minutes behind existing (grey or not) avi content.

 

We have already announced lower level
content deals (Image Entertainment, very long tail), but don’t be
surprised if you see some DivX online stores in the next year.

 

I’m certainly not saying that we are
trailblazers leading the pack, but don’t write us off. And please, keep
up the dialog. One truly unique position you have with DivX is that we are here
and listening.

 









From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:videoblogging@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Watkins
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005
10:12 AM
To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [videoblogging] Re: DivX
- Shameless Plug



 

Cheers :)

My impression of things is probably a bit wrong,
Im probably
underestimating the number of DivX certified
players etc that exist.
And yes when thinking of videoblogging, Im not
thinking of the
billions of legacy files that consumers want to
play, indeed Im
avoiding talking about that stuff at all because
its 'grey' to say the
least. Still it is similar to how mp3 become the
established standard
for audio. DivX doesnt dominate to quite the
extent mp3 does though, I
see a lot of xvid stuff floating around, but maybe
they are pretty
compatible. 

Regarding mp4 support from the likes of Apple and
Sony, it will be
interesting to see what happens. Apple have
actually been good about
this so far, they could have limited ipod support
to .mov containers
only, if they wanted to keep tighter control of
ipod video creation
tools. They havent, theyve allowed normal m4 to
work. The fact that
only baseline h264 works is likely due to the
choice of decoder chip,
rather than a deliberate imcompatibility with PSP
h264. Sony on the
otherhand have either due to sloppyness or
deliberate policy, messed
with the PSP mp4 container, but it still hasnt
stopped people creating
3rd party PSP video encoders.

Did you say in the pst that DivX are working on
playback in browsers?
Compared to Apple's stuff thats where you are
lacking most, and also
lacking something like itunes and content deals.
Im not so sure all
those billions of legacy divx avi's will mean all
that much to
hardware manufacturers in the longterm. When
people are buying more
video online, it wont be in avi format. Couple
that with phones &
other devices creating mp4's of one kind of
another, and next-gen DVD
using h264, and I am not so sure DivX
compatibility will continue to
be such a selling point for DVD hardware players
etc in the future. 

Steve of Elbows

--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com,
"Jim Vinson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Steve,

> Not to butter you up or anything, but you are
very insightful. I
> honestly appreciate these threads.
> 
> There are published specs for avi and many
other codecs and encoding
> applications create avi's. For the longterm
CE manufacturers will
> support this format since there are billions
of legacy files that the
> consumers want to play. Supporting our
'certified' profile gives them a
> competitive advantage, therefore they put it
in the box.

> From my side of the playground, the apple mp4
support is more of a
> problem than a help. If anyone is going to
make a vertically integrated
> closed system it will be apple. I would be
surprised if apple and sony
> came together with a compatible format out of
the kindness of their
> hearts. The slight differences are not an
accident. Recent content deals
> on both sides drive an even deeper wedge between
the psp and ipod. That
> is where we are trying to be part of the
solution. We do have the
> leverage

[videoblogging] Re: DivX - Shameless Plug

[Steve Watkins]

Cheers :)

My impression of things is probably a bit wrong, Im probably
underestimating the number of DivX certified players etc that exist.
And yes when thinking of videoblogging, Im not thinking of the
billions of legacy files that consumers want to play, indeed Im
avoiding talking about that stuff at all because its 'grey' to say the
least. Still it is similar to how mp3 become the established standard
for audio. DivX doesnt dominate to quite the extent mp3 does though, I
see a lot of xvid stuff floating around, but maybe they are pretty
compatible. 

Regarding mp4 support from the likes of Apple and Sony, it will be
interesting to see what happens. Apple have actually been good about
this so far, they could have limited ipod support to .mov containers
only, if they wanted to keep tighter control of ipod video creation
tools. They havent, theyve allowed normal m4 to work. The fact that
only baseline h264 works is likely due to the choice of decoder chip,
rather than a deliberate imcompatibility with PSP h264. Sony on the
otherhand have either due to sloppyness or deliberate policy, messed
with the PSP mp4 container, but it still hasnt stopped people creating
3rd party PSP video encoders.

Did you say in the pst that DivX are working on playback in browsers?
Compared to Apple's stuff thats where you are lacking most, and also
lacking something like itunes and content deals. Im not so sure all
those billions of legacy divx avi's will mean all that much to
hardware manufacturers in the longterm. When people are buying more
video online, it wont be in avi format. Couple that with phones &
other devices creating mp4's of one kind of another, and next-gen DVD
using h264, and I am not so sure DivX compatibility will continue to
be such a selling point for DVD hardware players etc in the future. 

Steve of Elbows

--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Vinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Steve,

> Not to butter you up or anything, but you are very insightful. I
> honestly appreciate these threads.
> 
> There are published specs for avi and many other codecs and encoding
> applications create avi's. For the longterm CE manufacturers will
> support this format since there are billions of legacy files that the
> consumers want to play. Supporting our 'certified' profile gives them a
> competitive advantage, therefore they put it in the box.

> From my side of the playground, the apple mp4 support is more of a
> problem than a help. If anyone is going to make a vertically integrated
> closed system it will be apple. I would be surprised if apple and sony
> came together with a compatible format out of the kindness of their
> hearts. The slight differences are not an accident. Recent content deals
> on both sides drive an even deeper wedge between the psp and ipod. That
> is where we are trying to be part of the solution. We do have the
> leverage to make CE manufacturers implement a documented standard that
> is verifiably interoperable by someone outside of the production
> process. Also, due to required legacy support, even if we were evil,
> hand wringing, control freaks, we couldn't lock out the existing,
> non-DivX (r) encoding schemes.





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RE: [videoblogging] Re: DivX - Shameless Plug

[Jim Vinson]

Nero doesn’t really have a
certification program. It is ‘self certification’ where the
manufacturers determine if the device is good enough or not.

 

I can’t speak too much to the ipod
psp work, but we do have our brightest minds working on it. We know what the
chips are capable of. We are looking at combinations of modifying syntax and
(only when absolutely necessary) transcoding. I can say that there are people
here watching DivX files on psp’s, but they are not your average
consumers and the files are not the average divx file.

 

 

 









From:
videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Watkins
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005
1:24 PM
To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [videoblogging] Re: DivX
- Shameless Plug



 

Wahey, cheers Jim. Perhaps
there is more hope than I thought that DivX
will rethink their strategy after seeing the ipod
& friends appear on
the scene.

Its perfectly possible I suppose to offer options
in DivX to create
standard mp4 files for use with ipods etc, as well
as maintaining
options to output stuff that requires divx decoder
and may look better
or compress better etc. 

I sincerely hope thats what happens,after all Nero
have got their own
silly name for mpeg4 'Nero Digital' and a
certification program with
matching encoder profiles, but their Nero Recode
app can still spit
out totally compliant .mp4's for use with Ipod,
and PSP compatible
ones too.

Steve of Elbows

--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Jim
Vinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Stay tuned for further developments (probably
more than 6 weeks away
> though).
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jake Ludington
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:27 PM
> To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [videoblogging] DivX - Shameless
Plug
> 
>  
> 
> > This puts a standard mpeg-4 based
playback in the quicktime player,
> > windows media player, consumer
electronics devices. The converter is
> > very easy, just drag and drop, or you
can export from quicktime pro
> > directly to DivX.
> 
> Jim,
> 
> The major disadvantage I see to DivX at this
point is no playback
> support on
> PSP or iPod. Yes it's perfect for PC or Mac
playback and the file sizes
> make
> it interesting as a solution for software
PVRs but the ideal scenario is
> one
> format for everything. MP4 comes closer than
anything else at this point
> because it is supported on the two devices
everyone wants to own in
> addition
> to being supported on all the desktop
platforms. If you can get your
> Codec
> on major portable devices, then you're on to
something.
> 
> Jake Ludington
> 
> http://www.PodcastingStarterKit.com
> http://www.jakeludington.com
> http://www.sync2play.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   _  
> 
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
>  
> 
> *  Visit your
group "videoblogging
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/videoblogging>
" on the web.
>     
> *  To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 

>     
> *  Your use of
Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
. 
> 
>  
> 
>   _
>










  




  
  
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RE: [videoblogging] Re: DivX - Shameless Plug

[Jim Vinson]

Steve,

 

Not to butter you up or anything, but you
are very insightful. I honestly appreciate these threads.

 

There are published specs for avi and many
other codecs and encoding applications create avi’s. For the longterm CE
manufacturers will support this format since there are billions of legacy files
that the consumers want to play. Supporting our ‘certified’ profile
gives them a competitive advantage, therefore they put it in the box.

 

A catch-22 that arises is how to get
something that is a documented standard into production consumer electronics
devices. This is a tightrope walk we have been on since at least 2002 and have
leveraged as much as we can to make it happen. 

 

In some ways we decided what CE
manufacturers would support, in other ways there were cost barriers in silicon
implementation where we helped guide the process to the best result possible.
In doing so, we have made a market of devices that conform to a standard that
can be accessed by anyone as a distribution endpoint.

 

From my side of the playground, the apple
mp4 support is more of a problem than a help. If anyone is going to make a
vertically integrated closed system it will be apple. I would be surprised if
apple and sony came together with a compatible format out of the kindness of
their hearts. The slight differences are not an accident. Recent content deals on
both sides drive an even deeper wedge between the psp and ipod. That is where
we are trying to be part of the solution. We do have the leverage to make CE
manufacturers implement a documented standard that is verifiably interoperable by
someone outside of the production process. Also, due to required legacy
support, even if we were evil, hand wringing, control freaks, we couldn’t
lock out the existing, non-DivX ® encoding schemes.

 

This isn’t the end of our work day
or month out here. We are going to keep plugging along, and hopefully with
input from people like steve we can move towards a good solution.

 

 

 









From:
videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Watkins
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005
1:17 PM
To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [videoblogging] Re: DivX
- Shameless Plug



 

Oops sorry I forgot the link
to the divx forum post that gave me the
idea .mp4 support is strongly resisted, though
forums arent
necessarily the best guide and I havent actually
had a chance to try
their latest software yet...

http://tinyurl.com/au4s5

To be fair there are still some reasons why people
are sticking with
.mov or .wmv rather than going for .mp4, but
devices such as ipod are
helping. Even then, people can still use .mov, but
Im hoping that
there will be a wider range of alternative players
that also handle
.mp4 and dont do .mov, and then the theory of why
.mp4 is the best
choice (no single comapny controlling it) will
become practical
reality. This paradise also requires Sony to get
rid of the stupid
slight difference to the mp4 structure that it
currently needs to be
compatible. And unfortunately in this context,
DivX is part of the
problem, not the solution right now.

Thats the road Im on anyway, as sufferers of my
regular mpeg4 related
waffle know only too well. When I no longer need
to waffle in depth
about the confusing subject of codecs, then it
will be a sign that
things are a bit better.

Steve of Elbows









  




  
  
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   Visit your group "videoblogging" on the web. 
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[videoblogging] Re: DivX - Shameless Plug

[Steve Watkins]

Wahey, cheers Jim. Perhaps there is more hope than I thought that DivX
will rethink their strategy after seeing the ipod & friends appear on
the scene.

Its perfectly possible I suppose to offer options in DivX to create
standard mp4 files for use with ipods etc, as well as maintaining
options to output stuff that requires divx decoder and may look better
or compress better etc. 

I sincerely hope thats what happens,after all Nero have got their own
silly name for mpeg4 'Nero Digital' and a certification program with
matching encoder profiles, but their Nero Recode app can still spit
out totally compliant .mp4's for use with Ipod, and PSP compatible
ones too.

Steve of Elbows

--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Vinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Stay tuned for further developments (probably more than 6 weeks away
> though).
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jake Ludington
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 12:27 PM
> To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [videoblogging] DivX - Shameless Plug
> 
>  
> 
> > This puts a standard mpeg-4 based playback in the quicktime player,
> > windows media player, consumer electronics devices. The converter is
> > very easy, just drag and drop, or you can export from quicktime pro
> > directly to DivX.
> 
> Jim,
> 
> The major disadvantage I see to DivX at this point is no playback
> support on
> PSP or iPod. Yes it's perfect for PC or Mac playback and the file sizes
> make
> it interesting as a solution for software PVRs but the ideal scenario is
> one
> format for everything. MP4 comes closer than anything else at this point
> because it is supported on the two devices everyone wants to own in
> addition
> to being supported on all the desktop platforms. If you can get your
> Codec
> on major portable devices, then you're on to something.
> 
> Jake Ludington
> 
> http://www.PodcastingStarterKit.com
> http://www.jakeludington.com
> http://www.sync2play.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   _  
> 
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
> 
>  
> 
> *  Visit your group "videoblogging
>  " on the web.
> 
> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
> 
> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service  . 
> 
>  
> 
>   _
>






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[videoblogging] Re: DivX - Shameless Plug

[Steve Watkins]

Oops sorry I forgot the link to the divx forum post that gave me the
idea .mp4 support is strongly resisted, though forums arent
necessarily the best guide and I havent actually had a chance to try
their latest software yet...

http://tinyurl.com/au4s5

To be fair there are still some reasons why people are sticking with
.mov or .wmv rather than going for .mp4, but devices such as ipod are
helping. Even then, people can still use .mov, but Im hoping that
there will be a wider range of alternative players that also handle
.mp4 and dont do .mov, and then the theory of why .mp4 is the best
choice (no single comapny controlling it) will become practical
reality. This paradise also requires Sony to get rid of the stupid
slight difference to the mp4 structure that it currently needs to be
compatible. And unfortunately in this context, DivX is part of the
problem, not the solution right now.

Thats the road Im on anyway, as sufferers of my regular mpeg4 related
waffle know only too well. When I no longer need to waffle in depth
about the confusing subject of codecs, then it will be a sign that
things are a bit better.

Steve of Elbows





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[videoblogging] Re: DivX - Shameless Plug

[Steve Watkins]

As I understand things, there are 2 technical compatibility issues
which prevent DivX from being of interest to most people interested in
videoblogging and similar activities, like the general explosion of
any kind of internet video.

To be of interest it needs to be able to be progressively downloadable
in the browser using popular software, work in a variety of players
without the need for a special divx decoder, and work on hardware
devices that support mp4.

The first problem is the actual video encoding itself, whether it uses
any features that for example the standard quicktime 6 or 7 cant
decode, or breaks away from the mpeg4 spec entirely. Quicktime can
only handle certain parts of various mpeg4 profiles, so you need to
tell any encoder to use a 'simple profile' to ensure quicktime
compatibility. From what I have read it is (or was in a previous PC
version, I dunno) possible to tell the divx encoder to just create
simple profile mpeg4 video, and this part of the problem is solved,
any mpeg4 decoder should be able to play them then. This is the same
issue as 3ivx has if you use one of their advanced options, it makes
the output video advanced simple profile, rather than just simple
profile, so quicktime cant play it without the 3ivx decoder installed.
But if you dont use that advanced option in 3ivx, compatibility with
standard mpeg4 decoders is a cert. 

The second problem is the container format. They chose AVI, and seem
to be resisting offering .mp4 container support, thus spoiling their
chances of appealing to anybody interested in ipod, PSP etc compatible
video. Part of their problem is they came up with their own file
format that is probably based on being AVI-compatible, and then got
into the hardware 'certified player' market. This makes it harder for
them to switch and remain backwards compatible. 

For example this forum post seemed to show a particularily negative
attitude towards offering .mp4 support:


However as things stand I believe their avoidance of .mp4 support may
have been a massive own goal that will see their market share sink.
Maybe other existing commercial considerations outweigh the loss of
the entire market for people creating ipod, psp etc content, but
whatever the reason it surely makes it unlikely they will get much
custom from videobloggers. 

Dont get me wrong, its nice to see Mac DIVX tools appearing, but these
solutions do not appear to currently address the issues that prevent
DivX being a sane recommendation for videoblog encoding.

Unfortunately I believe that in some ways their plan for the company
is incompatible with the goal of producing fully standard files that
can be played using technology that is nothing to do with DivX. Its a
tough one to call. If they went down that route then they would just
be known as a really good mpeg4 encoder, and would lose the playback
certification side of things and other related potential revenue
streams. Its also true that some technical innovation and improvements
to image quality could be lost, it depends whether most of the magic
of DivX is in being a really good mpeg4 encoder, or whether theyve
added stuff that makes it looks great but will forever require viewers
to have a divx decoder of some kind.

Steve of Elbows

--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, "Jake Ludington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> > This puts a standard mpeg-4 based playback in the quicktime player,
> > windows media player, consumer electronics devices. The converter is
> > very easy, just drag and drop, or you can export from quicktime pro
> > directly to DivX.
> 
> Jim,
> 
> The major disadvantage I see to DivX at this point is no playback
support on
> PSP or iPod. Yes it's perfect for PC or Mac playback and the file
sizes make
> it interesting as a solution for software PVRs but the ideal
scenario is one
> format for everything. MP4 comes closer than anything else at this point
> because it is supported on the two devices everyone wants to own in
addition
> to being supported on all the desktop platforms. If you can get your
Codec
> on major portable devices, then you're on to something.
> 
> Jake Ludington
> 
> http://www.PodcastingStarterKit.com
> http://www.jakeludington.com
> http://www.sync2play.com
>






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