Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
John Stoffel writes: > Sure, and someday pigs will fly as MS ships a perfectly conformant > IMAP server implementation. Perhaps. But, if the users don't complain, you will ensure that they will never fix things. > Quick question though, how is the best way to force VM to re-read > vm-imap.el as I'm hacking away on it? load-library? load-file can be used to load the file you are editing. If it is a single function, you can just do C-M-X to reload the defun. Cheers, Uday
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
> "Uday" == Uday S Reddy writes: Uday> Kyle Farrell writes: >> Attempting to store any flag the server doesn't recognize is causing >> none of the flags to be stored. I would guess the right thing for VM >> to do would be only attempt to store flags that are explicitly >> recognized by the server. Uday> I don't think you meant that. The "right thing" for VM to do is Uday> to follow the standard. Yes, that would be ideal. But when the server doesn't implement the standard properly, what else are we to do? Uday> You, or somebody on your behalf, is paying money to Microsoft to Uday> deliver quality software. It is their job to ask Microsoft to Uday> do the "right thing". So far, I don't see any evidence that Uday> this has been done. Sure, and someday pigs will fly as MS ships a perfectly conformant IMAP server implementation. Uday> I will find some work around so that you don't have to put up Uday> with too much pain. But I don't regard it as my job to change Uday> VM to work with bad servers. Sure, I can understand your frustration, but I'm hoping this won't be a big problem to fix. I think that maybe the change could be localized to vm-imap.el with a variable that us poor suffering fools would have to use, which restricts FLAGS.SILENT usage when stupid servers are in the loop. Maybe I'll be able to whip up a test patch later on to see how it works. Quick question though, how is the best way to force VM to re-read vm-imap.el as I'm hacking away on it? load-library? John
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
> "Uday" == Uday S Reddy writes: Uday> John Stoffel writes: >> which tells me that MS doesn't want to support extra flags. Uday> That is not the point. To repeat what I wrote to you several months ago: Uday> The IMAP standard (RFC 3501) says: Uday> 59) It is not an error for the client to store a flag that is not in Uday> the PERMANENTFLAGS list; however, the server will either ignore the Uday> change or make the change in the session only. Uday> So, unfortunately, your Exchange server is not adhering to the standard. Uday> Please do complain to whoever is running your Exchange server. Uday> You haven't said whether a complaint has been made to Microsoft. I have NOT made a complaint to MS, since I doubt it will do anything. And since when has not following the spec been a new thing for Microsoft? Uday> Not only is Exchange giving an error message where it shouldn't, Uday> but it is also forcibly disconnecting you after a few attempts. Uday> That is quite a misbehaviour if you ask me! Yup, I agree 100%. But the chances of MS making a change is much less than getting you to make the fix from the VM side. I hope. *grin* Uday> You guys are paying good money to Microsoft. Why don't you get Uday> on their backs? Make them earn their living. I wish I could, I really do. And maybe I will be forced down this route. But for now, since I have the source, it's more likely I'll learn elisp and hack the code myself to fix this issue. Yes, I know they're abusing the standard, but I can't fix that. John
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
Kyle Farrell writes: > I was wondering why my deleted messages where getting cleared, then I > realized what was happening: I'd read, reply, file, and delete my > mail. Messages are marked "\deleted" and "filed" (or another imap > label Exchange doesn't recognize such as "junk"). Since Exchange > can't store the flag, the command fails so none of the flags are being > stored. VM then syncs flags from the server, so my deleted flag is > cleared from my inbox since the server rejected the store command. Here is the work-around for this problem. 1. Set `vm-imap-sync-on-get' to nil, so that VM doesn't attempt to save attributes when you get new mail. 2. Set `vm-expunge-before-save' and `vm-expunge-before-quit' to `t' so that the deleted messages are expunged before saving. 3. Set `vm-delete-after-saving' to `t' so that filed messages get deleted. 4. Use `s' to save folders. Or you can quit using `q' which does an automatic save. 5. I suppose you will refrain from adding any labels to messages because VM will attempt to save them to the server, which will then misbehave. (The "junk" flag is not created by VM. You will need to figure out how it got there.) 6. There will still be some VM-specific flags such as "forwarded" and "redistributed" which Exchange won't understand. Hopefully, they won't be too many to get into trouble with Exchange. As I have said before, I am happy to make VM resilient so that it doesn't break when the server misbehaves. But I haven't yet received a proper bug report that explains how VM is breaking. Cheers, Uday
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
John Stoffel writes: > which tells me that MS doesn't want to support extra flags. That is not the point. To repeat what I wrote to you several months ago: The IMAP standard (RFC 3501) says: 59) It is not an error for the client to store a flag that is not in the PERMANENTFLAGS list; however, the server will either ignore the change or make the change in the session only. So, unfortunately, your Exchange server is not adhering to the standard. Please do complain to whoever is running your Exchange server. You haven't said whether a complaint has been made to Microsoft. Not only is Exchange giving an error message where it shouldn't, but it is also forcibly disconnecting you after a few attempts. That is quite a misbehaviour if you ask me! You guys are paying good money to Microsoft. Why don't you get on their backs? Make them earn their living. Cheers, Uday
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
Kyle> I did a bit more playing around and the "filed" flag is a red Kyle> herring. It's really any label that the imap server doesn't Kyle> recognize that causes issue. Right. I think most IMAP servers will just accept the labels, and then just discard them at the end of the session. The IMAP spec says "Should" for this. MS probably decided to not bother since they didn't have to meet the spec with it. To quote RFC3501: A keyword is defined by the server implementation. Keywords do not begin with "\". Servers MAY permit the client to define new keywords in the mailbox (see the description of the PERMANENTFLAGS response code for more information). And reading more seems to say that if the "OK [PERMANENTFLAGS ( )]" result you see on login doesn't include \*, then you can't create new flags. So probably VM should be patched to notice which flags are allowed and to only use them. For example, my login shows: * OK The Microsoft Exchange IMAP4 service is ready. -- connected for checkmail VM CAPABILITY * CAPABILITY IMAP4 IMAP4rev1 AUTH=NTLM AUTH=GSSAPI AUTH=PLAIN STARTTLS UIDPLUS CHILDREN IDLE NAMESPACE LITERAL+ VM OK CAPABILITY completed. VM LOGIN VM OK LOGIN completed. VM SELECT "inbox" * EXISTS * 0 RECENT * FLAGS (\Seen \Answered \Flagged \Deleted \Draft $MDNSent) * OK [PERMANENTFLAGS (\Seen \Answered \Flagged \Deleted \Draft $MDNSent)] Permanent flags * OK [UNSEEN 2199] Is the first unseen message * OK [UIDVALIDITY 5840] UIDVALIDITY value * OK [UIDNEXT 122141] The next unique identifier value VM OK [READ-WRITE] SELECT completed. VM LOGOUT * BYE Microsoft Exchange Server 2010 IMAP4 server signing off. VM OK LOGOUT completed. which tells me that MS doesn't want to support extra flags. Kyle> I was wondering why my deleted messages where getting cleared, Kyle> then I realized what was happening: I'd read, reply, file, and Kyle> delete my mail. Messages are marked "\deleted" and "filed" (or Kyle> another imap label Exchange doesn't recognize such as "junk"). Kyle> Since Exchange can't store the flag, the command fails so none Kyle> of the flags are being stored. VM then syncs flags from the Kyle> server, so my deleted flag is cleared from my inbox since the Kyle> server rejected the store command. I just tried changing the 'filed' flag as set in vm-imap.el to \filed, but my simple attempt at hacking failed and didn't seem to make a difference. Kyle> Attempting to store any flag the server doesn't recognize is Kyle> causing none of the flags to be stored. I would guess the right Kyle> thing for VM to do would be only attempt to store flags that are Kyle> explicitly recognized by the server. I wonder if VM could be taught to use the
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
Kyle Farrell writes: > Attempting to store any flag the server doesn't recognize is causing > none of the flags to be stored. I would guess the right thing for VM > to do would be only attempt to store flags that are explicitly > recognized by the server. I don't think you meant that. The "right thing" for VM to do is to follow the standard. You, or somebody on your behalf, is paying money to Microsoft to deliver quality software. It is their job to ask Microsoft to do the "right thing". So far, I don't see any evidence that this has been done. I will find some work around so that you don't have to put up with too much pain. But I don't regard it as my job to change VM to work with bad servers. Cheers, Uday
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
I did a bit more playing around and the "filed" flag is a red herring. It's really any label that the imap server doesn't recognize that causes issue. I was wondering why my deleted messages where getting cleared, then I realized what was happening: I'd read, reply, file, and delete my mail. Messages are marked "\deleted" and "filed" (or another imap label Exchange doesn't recognize such as "junk"). Since Exchange can't store the flag, the command fails so none of the flags are being stored. VM then syncs flags from the server, so my deleted flag is cleared from my inbox since the server rejected the store command. Attempting to store any flag the server doesn't recognize is causing none of the flags to be stored. I would guess the right thing for VM to do would be only attempt to store flags that are explicitly recognized by the server. -Kyle
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
Uday> Kyle Farrell writes: >> This surfaces as a "vm-imap-send-command: writing to process: >> invalid argment, IMAP over SSL" and I can't get new mail or run >> vm-imap-synchronize. The workaround I've employed is to expunge filed >> messages prior to getting new mail. Uday> Ok, that is useful information, but still a long way off from what I would Uday> need to track down the problems. Sorry I haven't been able to provide enough info on this. It comes and goes, but I suspect it's partly based on how many filed and deleted messages you have. If I do more than... oh... say 8 to 10 messages which are filed and deleted, then try to expunge them from the IMAP server, it then fails. Again, I suspect it's because MS Exchange has a poor IMAP implementation. Uday> I believe that VM recovers from the "BAD Command" errors fine. Uday> VM knows that they don't matter. But John Stoffel's trace log Uday> showed that the server was disconnecting him after a few such Uday> errors. This could leave VM in a confused or inconsistent Uday> state. I can't tell from your description what exactly Uday> happened. Could it be that the server says "whoa, too many bad commands, I'm kicking you out!" so it might be useful to do the commands in smaller batches, then flush changes? Or maybe, because MS Exchange just sucks, we don't store any flags beyond the ones defined in the IMAP standard? Or maybe we need to pre-define the 'filed' flag as a PERMANENTFLAGS somehow? Yes, I'm quickly looking over the IMAP specs as shown in: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3501#section-6 Uday> Note that I can't reproduce your errors. You will need to give Uday> me a blow-by-blow description of what happens and be as precise Uday> as possible. For instance, "this surfaces as" is too vague. Is Uday> it an error? Is it a warning? Does VM stop and report the Uday> error, or go on continuing? Sometimes it works, in other words, I can save the buffer, expunge deleted messages, etc. Othertimes the IMAP connection gets closed and I don't get to make any changes at all to my inbox. I then have to login with Outlook, find and nuke some/all of the messages giving problems, and then VM works again. Uday> What do you do next? What is VM's response? What does the Uday> *Messages* buffer show? Et cetra. Uday> Please report it to viewmail-b...@nongnu.org so that we don't have to bore Uday> everybody with these problems. >> How could this be fixed client side, in VM? What should VM do in this >> situation? Does anyone have alternative workarounds for Exchange >> 2010? Is there a way to clear the filed flag from messages? Uday> Yes, there is. Please see the manual section "Message Attributes". Uday> Cheers, Uday> Uday
Re: [VM] Exchange 2010 IMAP4 & storing "filed"
Kyle Farrell writes: > This surfaces as a "vm-imap-send-command: writing to process: > invalid argment, IMAP over SSL" and I can't get new mail or run > vm-imap-synchronize. The workaround I've employed is to expunge filed > messages prior to getting new mail. Ok, that is useful information, but still a long way off from what I would need to track down the problems. I believe that VM recovers from the "BAD Command" errors fine. VM knows that they don't matter. But John Stoffel's trace log showed that the server was disconnecting him after a few such errors. This could leave VM in a confused or inconsistent state. I can't tell from your description what exactly happened. Note that I can't reproduce your errors. You will need to give me a blow-by-blow description of what happens and be as precise as possible. For instance, "this surfaces as" is too vague. Is it an error? Is it a warning? Does VM stop and report the error, or go on continuing? What do you do next? What is VM's response? What does the *Messages* buffer show? Et cetra. Please report it to viewmail-b...@nongnu.org so that we don't have to bore everybody with these problems. > How could this be fixed client side, in VM? What should VM do in this > situation? Does anyone have alternative workarounds for Exchange > 2010? Is there a way to clear the filed flag from messages? Yes, there is. Please see the manual section "Message Attributes". Cheers, Uday
