[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 09/12/2011 06:23, Rockford Mjos wrote: I have added the score Capona Espagnola from the De Gallot Ms to my Ning page. (I tried to also upload one by Valdambrini, but Ning seems to be stubborn tonight.) Very interesting - and in the same key as the two in Carbonchi. Rocky, do you think the last beat of bar 9 should be open A (fifth course) rather than D on the fourth? And the g#s in bar 23. Are they just a passing variation; a sort of E7 chord rather than G. But could they be an error? I think the piece loses its hypnotic character somewhat. These pieces are playing around with 2/4 and 3/4 but is there an underlying 'vamp' (as it were)? They are notated in 3, but I don't think I can play them in 3. It's fun just playing the final four bars of the Capona Espagnola - presumably as 2/4. It's interesting too, that these aren't strummed; one might have thought that something a bit licentious would go towards strumming rather than 'lute style' I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Stuart -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 08/12/2011 23:58, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Colección: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ³Son ó baile a modo de la Mariona; pero más rápido y bullicioso, con el cual y á cuyo tañido se cantan varias coplillas². A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy How interesting. Any idea what: of very bad circumstances might mean? Or is it just meant to be suggestive of what 'decent' people would not do. Or something to do with eunuchs? Stuart El [FECHA], [NOMBRE][DIRECCION] escribió: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto
Thanks to all who responded. I'll have enough to chat my way through the concert coming Sunday. Espeically Juan Pablo's story is good, as the theme of my concert will be 'Spanish Music in Flemish Sources and Flemish Music in Spanish Sources - Music from Phalése and Narváez' on lute and vihuela. Will be fun! David On 8 December 2011 17:43, Juan Pablo Pira p...@asies.org.gt wrote: I have no source for this, but I remember someone telling me that baxa=baja=Low refers to the Low Countries, so it could be Dance from the Netherlands, as opposed to Alta (if it exists at all), that would be a German dance... maybe an Allemande. JP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto
On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 15:39:08 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote Thanks to all who responded. I'll have enough to chat my way through the concert coming Sunday. Espeically Juan Pablo's story is good, Yes, in the category of: Se non è vero, è ben trovato. ... But, since that saying is supposed to come from rennaisance Giordano Bruno it's fitting after all ;-) How would Baxa de contrapunto translate: Down from the counterpoint ? Or Dutch from the counterpoint? Is that a kind of disease you catch from being exposed to long to flemish polyphony? Cheers, Ralf Mattes as the theme of my concert will be 'Spanish Music in Flemish Sources and Flemish Music in Spanish Sources - Music from Phalése and Narváez' on lute and vihuela. Will be fun! David On 8 December 2011 17:43, Juan Pablo Pira p...@asies.org.gt wrote: I have no source for this, but I remember someone telling me that baxa=baja=Low refers to the Low Countries, so it could be Dance from the Netherlands, as opposed to Alta (if it exists at all), that would be a German dance... maybe an Allemande. JP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Radio
For those have missed my radio program aired in Amsterdam on Monday, the audio archive is now available - http://www.concertzender.nl/swfplayer2.php?mode=rodprovider=czprogram=roddate=20111205hour=23pid=52618 stream, http://streams.greenhost.nl/cz/cz/rod/20111205-2300.mp3 - download Enjoy, RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto
I don't think it has anything to do with the Netherlands in spite of the good story. The whole phrase is Baxa de contra punto el canto llano lleva el tiple, es de octavo tono. which I think translates Bass of the counterpoint. The treble part carries the canto firmo. It is in the 8th tone.Baxa/Baja in Spanish can refer to the bass part. Monica - Original Message - From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 3:11 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 15:39:08 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote Thanks to all who responded. I'll have enough to chat my way through the concert coming Sunday. Espeically Juan Pablo's story is good, Yes, in the category of: Se non è vero, è ben trovato. ... But, since that saying is supposed to come from rennaisance Giordano Bruno it's fitting after all ;-) How would Baxa de contrapunto translate: Down from the counterpoint ? Or Dutch from the counterpoint? Is that a kind of disease you catch from being exposed to long to flemish polyphony? Cheers, Ralf Mattes as the theme of my concert will be 'Spanish Music in Flemish Sources and Flemish Music in Spanish Sources - Music from Phalése and Narváez' on lute and vihuela. Will be fun! David On 8 December 2011 17:43, Juan Pablo Pira p...@asies.org.gt wrote: I have no source for this, but I remember someone telling me that baxa=baja=Low refers to the Low Countries, so it could be Dance from the Netherlands, as opposed to Alta (if it exists at all), that would be a German dance... maybe an Allemande. JP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? How interesting. Any idea what: of very bad circumstances might mean? Or is it just meant to be suggestive of what 'decent' people would not do. Or something to do with eunuchs? It does indeed have something to do with eunuchs! As I understand it Capona refers to a capon and therefore to castratos. The rhythm and dance steps are supposed to reflect the mincing steps of same. Monica El [FECHA], [NOMBRE][DIRECCION] escribió: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto
Baxa/Baja in Spanish can refer to the bass part. Are you sure of this, Monica? I'd rather think of a baxa danza, rather to the part. In Spanish you'd say commonly contrabaxo for the bass part... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? On 09/12/2011 06:23, Rockford Mjos wrote: I have added the score Capona Espagnola from the De Gallot Ms to my Ning page. (I tried to also upload one by Valdambrini, but Ning seems to be stubborn tonight.) Ning indeed seems very stubborn tonight. I couldn't access Rocky transcription - very frustrating. Nothing happens when I click on it. Very interesting - and in the same key as the two in Carbonchi. Rocky, do you think the last beat of bar 9 should be open A (fifth course) rather than D on the fourth? Could be - Gallot or his servant Monnier isn't always entirely accurate. He has barred it wrongly which he quite often does with pieces which start with an anacrucis. And the g#s in bar 23. Are they just a passing variation; a sort of E7 chord rather than G. But could they be an error? Could be. I wonder where he copied the piece from. He has copied Carbonchi's instructions for tuning guitars to 12 different pitches. These pieces are playing around with 2/4 and 3/4 but is there an underlying 'vamp' (as it were)? Apparently it is a characteristic of the Capona that it divides into two irregular phrases, one of 5 beats and the other of 7. 5 crotchets followed by 7 crotchets or 3 minims plus a crotchet I.e. a sort of hemiola. Lynda Sayce has done a very nice version of Piccinini's Capona on a CD with Charivarri Agreeable. She suggests that Piccinini's version - which is apparently rather inept - may be an arrangement of a guitar piece. So she has arranged it back. Piccinini did spend some time in Spain. I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I
[VIHUELA] Re: Radio
Thank you Roman! I was listening as it aired on Monday and thoroughly enjoyed it! Will listen to it again when I have a chance, and do hope that the link persists. a On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Roman Turovsky [1]r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: For those have missed my radio program aired in Amsterdam on Monday, the audio archive is now available - [2]http://www.concertzender.nl/swfplayer2.php?mode=rodprovider=czp rogram=roddate=20111205hour=23pid=52618 stream, [3]http://streams.greenhost.nl/cz/cz/rod/20111205-2300.mp3 - download Enjoy, RT To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@verizon.net 2. http://www.concertzender.nl/swfplayer2.php?mode=rodprovider=czprogram=roddate=20111205hour=23pid=52618 3. http://streams.greenhost.nl/cz/cz/rod/20111205-2300.mp3 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
I must say that this music is far slinkier than I'm used to hearing in 17th century music! I wonder what they got up to when they danced to it (and which was condemned at the time)? I'd guess it would seem very tame to compared to some of the overtly sexual dance of today. Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Stuart (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto Baxa/Baja in Spanish can refer to the bass part. Are you sure of this, Monica? I'd rather think of a baxa danza, rather to the part. In Spanish you'd say commonly contrabaxo for the bass part... It's actually baxo - Sanz refers to the bass line in this way. e.g. Regla quinta del acompanamiento del baxo, quando camina de salta. Amat refers to the bass line as baxete. I thought it referred to a basse dance at first but other people seemed to have different ideas on the subject which was why I tried to come up with a literal translation of what Narvaez says. I don't think it has anything to do with the Netherlands. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona Espagnola (Gallot)
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 8:52 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona Espagnola (Gallot) About the Capona, Monica says: Apparently it is a characteristic of the Capona that it divides into two irregular phrases, one of 5 beats and the other of 7. 5 crotchets followed by 7 crotchets or 3 minims plus a crotchet I.e. a sort of hemiola. Now that's really something! ...Anyway, Rocky put up an edition of a Capona Espagnola from the Gallot guitar MS. I couldn't access this or your recording for some reason. However as I said the rhythm should be C C / C C C / C C / C C / C C / C // if C= crotchet and M= minim. The crotchet may be dotted followed by a quaver. Piccinini hasn't barred it correctly bu Lynda Sayce does it perfectly. This seems to be common practice in early 17th century not to indicate the anancrucis. They don't always bar things in the way we would consider correct possibly because they weren't all that musically literate. I had a quick go at the Gallot but didn't think much of it. He has made a mess of it I think. Don't expect too much of these people! Monica Monica say that Gallot or his servant Monnier isn't always entirely accurate. He has barred it wrongly which he quite often does with pieces which start with an anacrucis. The Caponas in Carbonchi start on the second beat of the bar too and no doubt, this should too. I had a go at playing it. I found very challenging trying to play and yet it doesn't sound much at all, listening to it. I don't think I'm phrasing it correctly - but I don't think I could conceive (get my head around) a 5 beat phrase followed by a 7 beat one. Has anyone else had a go? The notes are easy, the notation is straightforward but it's just seems very odd. I'd be really interested to hear other peoples' reactions to it. And I'd recommend anyone to have a go even at just the last four bars - just single notes - and maybe phrase it 5 beats, the seven beats. Well here's a go at it. I was really disappointed because I expected it to sound much more rhythmically surprising. It felt like it should be when I was playing it (many, many times with a metronome in an ear piece!) http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/CaponaGallot.mp3 Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? You should get out more and read more of the liner notes to CDs made by groups like Les Otros! When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. I think they waved their arms about a bit and wiggled their hips. If you have Lute 2007 you will see the illustration on the front cover. It's on my Facebook site too. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Sounds familiar. Monica (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. [6]mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Well, the waltz was nasty because people held each other closely while dancing. There's even a funny quote from 1799 in Grove about people waltzing in the dark corner of the room. I think the sarabanda and ciacona garnered comments from some shocked Europeans in the 17th century or earlier. Maybe some performers are making the most (too much?) of it now to sell CDs, but the dances really did seem to scandalize Europeans back in the day. Perhaps more than choreography bothered them (with the Spanish/New World dances): rhythms, instrumentation, topics, maybe even the cultural group the music originated from? Yesteryear's hip hop? Jocelyn From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:42:03 + To: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? You should get out more and read more of the liner notes to CDs made by groups like Les Otros! When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. I think they waved their arms about a bit and wiggled their hips. If you have Lute 2007 you will see the illustration on the front cover. It's on my Facebook site too. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Sounds familiar. Monica (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3][9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4][4][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm l -- References
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
On 09/12/2011 22:06, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Well, the waltz was nasty because people held each other closely while dancing. There's even a funny quote from 1799 in Grove about people waltzing in the dark corner of the room. I think the sarabanda and ciacona garnered comments from some shocked Europeans in the 17th century or earlier. Maybe some performers are making the most (too much?) of it now to sell CDs, but the dances really did seem to scandalize Europeans back in the day. Perhaps more than choreography bothered them (with the Spanish/New World dances): rhythms, instrumentation, topics, maybe even the cultural group the music originated from? The eroticised other, indeed. Yesteryear's hip hop? Jocelyn From: Monica Hall[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:42:03 + To: Stuart Walsh[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Capona? Exactly! I think this present day obsession with the idea that the dances were obscene and that being banned gives them some sort of instrinsic merit is a bit wide of the mark. Monica, who is obsessed with obscenity and early dance!? You should get out more and read more of the liner notes to CDs made by groups like Les Otros! When I read, a while ago, that the early 'sarabanda' had been banned for lewdness in some places, I thought that that was just extraordinary. And now the capona too, good grief! I think it would be fascinating to know what they were on about. I think they waved their arms about a bit and wiggled their hips. If you have Lute 2007 you will see the illustration on the front cover. It's on my Facebook site too. (I've got a book tucked away somewhere which says the same thing about the 19th century waltz) Sounds familiar. Monica (I just went to see ENO's production of Castor and Pollux in which the artists spent a lot of taking their knickers off - unthinkable in Rameau's time. They were actually quite prudish. But I can see now why Guerau in his Poema Harmonica says something to the effect that studying his complicated and difficult variations on the dance pieces will keep you out of trouble. Well he actaully says Use it to banish idleness and raise your heart to God. But that's the sort of thing that they say in these prefaces. They were very high minded. How many players on this list raise their hearts to God when playing? Monica -- R On Dec 8, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Coleccion: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ^3Son o baile a modo de la Mariona; pero mas rapido y bullicioso, con el cual y a cuyo tanido se cantan varias coplillas^2. A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE][DIRECCION] escribio: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1][1][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2][2][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3][3][9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I
[VIHUELA] Re: Radio
Hi Roman, I've been listening for a while now and just wanted to say how much I enjoy your music. Thanks for the download opportunity. Best, Jocelyn -- From: Roman Turovsky [1]r.turov...@verizon.net Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 12:03:04 -0500 To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Radio For those have missed my radio program aired in Amsterdam on Monday, the audio archive is now available - [3]http://www.concertzender.nl/swfplayer2.php?mode=rodprovider=czprog ram=roddate=20111205hour=23pid=52618 stream, [4]http://streams.greenhost.nl/cz/cz/rod/20111205-2300.mp3 - download Enjoy, RT To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@verizon.net 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.concertzender.nl/swfplayer2.php?mode=rodprovider=czprogram=roddate=20111205hour=23pid=52618 4. http://streams.greenhost.nl/cz/cz/rod/20111205-2300.mp3 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baxa de contrapunto
I don't think it has anything to do with the Netherlands in spite of the good story. Saddly, you are probably right. The whole phrase is Baxa de contra punto el canto llano lleva el tiple, es de octavo tono. which I think translates Bass of the counterpoint. The treble part carries the canto firmo. It is in the 8th tone. I would not translate de as of in this context. Compare with Una calculadora de baterías - A battery operated calculator Eso está de pelos- That's scary (lit. that has hairs). helado de chocolate Chocolate-flavored ice cream. I would translate it as a Baxa (whatever that means) in which counterpoint is an important characteristic . Basse danse makes sense to me. Baxa/Baja in Spanish can refer to the bass part. Usually Bajo or Baxo. Baja if you were referring to a particular note. JP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
