[VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thanks. that's actually the recording I have. Perhaps that is the only 
one he made and I am mistaken in thinking he did the complete book.

Cheers

Monica. 

Original Message
From: azal...@gmail.com
Date: 01/12/2018 16:43 
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "David van Ooijen", "Vihuela"
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas

There are listings for four LP recordings (with track information) at
   this location:
   [1]https://www.discogs.com/artist/4350799-Rodrigo-de-Zayas
   This seems to be the one that includes the Sanz tracks:
   Rodrigo de Zayas ââ Luths - Theorbes, Vihuelas, Guitare Baroque
   Label:  Arion ââ ARN 336 018Format:3 Ã Vinyl, LP, Compilation
   Country:  France
   Released:1979
   Azalais

   On Sat, Dec 1, 2018 at 10:05 AM [2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

 Thanks - that's a start on the long long trail a-winding.   Maybe 
he
 only recorded part of it. There is an interview with him on 
YouTube!
 He
 also seems to have recorded an opera by Caccini.
 Monica
 Original Message
 From: [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 Date: 01/12/2018 14:31
 To: "Monica Hall"<[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
 Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas
 Guitar Review Nr 40 from 1976. I have that. It's an article with
 some
transcriptions.
David
***
David van Ooijen
[1][7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[2][8]www.davidvanooijen.nl
***
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 at 15:27, [3][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
<[4][10]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
  Am I imagining it or did Rodrigo de Zayas make a recording of
 the
  complete works of Sanz sometime in the 1970s? I have a set of
 three
  LPs
  of selections from all his recordings. One side is devoted to
 Sanz.
  I
  believe he also did a complete transcription of the msuic 
which
 was
  included in the long since defunct periodical "Guitar 
Review".
  Was anyone else around at that time and have any recollection
 of
  this.
  Regards
  Monica
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [5][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--
 References
1. mailto:[12]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
    2. [13]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
3. mailto:[14]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[15]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://www.discogs.com/artist/4350799-Rodrigo-de-Zayas
   2. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   9. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  12. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  13. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
  14. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  15. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thanks - that's a start on the long long trail a-winding.  Maybe he 
only recorded part of it. There is an interview with him on YouTube! He 
also seems to have recorded an opera by Caccini.

Monica



Original Message
From: davidvanooi...@gmail.com
Date: 01/12/2018 14:31 
To: "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Rodrigo de Zayas

Guitar Review Nr 40 from 1976. I have that. It's an article with some
   transcriptions.
   David
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***

   On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 at 15:27, [3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[4]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

 Am I imagining it or did Rodrigo de Zayas make a recording of the
 complete works of Sanz sometime in the 1970s? I have a set of 
three
 LPs
 of selections from all his recordings. One side is devoted to 
Sanz.
 I
 believe he also did a complete transcription of the msuic which 
was
 included in the long since defunct periodical "Guitar Review".
 Was anyone else around at that time and have any recollection of
 this.
 Regards
 Monica
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   3. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Rodrigo de Zayas

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Am I imagining it or did Rodrigo de Zayas make a recording of the 
complete works of Sanz sometime in the 1970s? I have a set of three LPs 
of selections from all his recordings. One side is devoted to Sanz. I 
believe he also did a complete transcription of the msuic which was 
included in the long since defunct periodical "Guitar Review".

Was anyone else around at that time and have any recollection of this.

Regards

Monica



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Corbetta

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Just for the record - I am revising my web pages devoted to Corbetta. I 
have just uploaded a revised and enlarged version of Section I which 
covers his biography.  

You can find this at http://monicahall.co.uk/corbetta  

Regards

Monica



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta 1639

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thanks for this.  I think it must be a 3. 5 doesn't really make much 
sense. The basic chord N has a 4 because it is an A flat major chord.  
I just like to consider every possible permutation before deciding on 
the obvious!

Monica 


Original Message
From: dshos...@mac.com
Date: 04/08/2018 14:41 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"
Cc: "VihuelaList"
Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta 1639

The pdf I have is not bad and there is nothing visible above the bottom 
line (top course) for the N chord. 3 or 5 possible although 5 1 1 1 1 
would be a nasty stretch (at least for me!)

> On Aug 3, 2018, at 5:36 AM, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote:
> 
> Has anyone got a decent digital copy of Corbetta's 1639 book?
> 
> His "alfabeto falso" includes a version of Chord N* with the fifth 
> course clearly left unfretted but the note on the first course is 
> unclear. Most people including Pinnell and Gary Boye have 
interpreted 
> this as being G played at the third fret but the shape of what is 
> actually visible resembles the figure 5 rather than 3 when compared 
> with Chords N3 and N5.
> 
> One version would be - top down
> 
> 3
> 1
> 1
> 1
> 1
> 
> The other
> 
> 5
> 1
> 1
> 1
> 1
> 
> Any thoughts welcome.
> 
> Monica
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Corbetta 1639

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Has anyone got a decent digital copy of Corbetta's 1639 book?

His "alfabeto falso" includes a version of Chord N* with the fifth 
course clearly left unfretted but the note on the first course is 
unclear. Most people including Pinnell and Gary Boye have interpreted 
this as being G played at the third fret but the shape of what is 
actually visible resembles the figure 5 rather than 3 when compared 
with Chords N3 and N5.

One version would be - top down

3
1
1
1
1

The other

5
1
1
1
1

Any thoughts welcome.

Monica



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Mademoiselle de Regnault de Solier

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Does anyone know anything about the lady to whom Le Gallois addressed 
his letter about music. -

Le Gallois, Jean - Lettre de Mr Le Gallois a Mademoiselle de Regnault 
de Solier touchant la Musique. Paris : Estienne Michallet & G. Quinet, 
1680. 

There are a couple of references to Corbetta therin.

Thanks
Monica



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta 1643

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thanks Arthur. I have the SPES edition. It was this edition published 
in Pavia that I am trying to get hold of.  I expect it is out of print. 
I wonder if anyone happens to know Giangiacomo Pinardi.

Best
Monica

Original Message
From: arthurjn...@verizon.net
Date: 29/04/2018 11:46 
To: <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta 1643


Hi Monica, 

The SPES edition is for sale at abebooks.com for $US106. 

Or did you only want the edition publ. in Pavia?

Are you familiar with B-Bc MS Littera XY no. 24135   It has some 
unusual titles in common with the Cavacanti Lute Book in he same 
library.  I wonder if they might form a pair. The Cavalcanti came from 
Coussemacher's collection.  Titles like Cicilano  (with C, not S), 
Franchina, Matacinata etc.



Arthur Ness
arthurjn...@verizon.net




-Original Message-
From: mjlhall <mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
To: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Sat, Apr 28, 2018 12:15 pm
Subject: [VIHUELA] Corbetta 1643


It appears that an edition of Corbetta's Varii Capricii per la 
Guitarra 
Spagnuola (1643) edited by Giangiacomo Pinardi, was published by the 
publishers Guardamagna Editore, in Pavia in 1996.

I have been trying to get hold of this without success. I e-mailed the 
publishers but they haven't replied. 

Does anyone on the list have a copy of it or know where I might get 
hold of one?

Best wishes
Monica



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Corbetta 1643

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

It appears that an edition of Corbetta's Varii Capricii per la Guitarra 
Spagnuola (1643) edited by Giangiacomo Pinardi, was published by the 
publishers Guardamagna Editore, in Pavia in 1996.

I have been trying to get hold of this without success. I e-mailed the 
publishers but they haven't replied. 

Does anyone on the list have a copy of it or know where I might get 
hold of one?

Best wishes
Monica



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: German translations

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Dear Daniel

Many thanks for clarifying this. I am afraid I didn't make it very 
clear in my original e-mail but you have now made it really clear for 
me and I am very grateful. Sorry for any confusion caused.

I realized after I had sent my message that you hadn't copied your 
reply to the list. If you didn't intend it to appear on the list I must 
apologise for the faux pas.

Best wishes
Monica

Original Message
From: heiman.dan...@juno.com
Date: 24/04/2018 7:02 
To: <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, <pe...@crispu.com>
Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations

Monica:

My response was strongly prejudiced by the last sentence, obviously 
written  by a modern commentator, which to me implies a context of a 
discussion of lessons for Leopold, presumably based on other evidence 
that is not mentioned in this brief excerpt.  If there is no such 
context, then my interpretation is incorrect.

The date range given, by itself, does not imply anything other than 
that the account book from which the historical quotation was taken 
covers the time period listed.  It does not necessarily imply service 
rendered over a period of time.  Only one monetary sum is mentioned, 
but there could have been a single payment or several.  You won't know 
for sure until you can examine the account book or a facsimile of it.  
The situation would obviously have been clearer if the date or dates of 
the transaction(s) had been given rather than what apparently are just 
the dates for the beginning and end of the ledger book.

"umbwillen" is probably "for the sake of"

"beeden Khönigli Persohnen" is most likely, as Peter suggests, 'both 
royal personages," not just the young prince.

Again, there is nothing in this passage that explicitly states that 
instruction was given.  Taken by itself, it could describe simply a 
"command" performance on guitar.

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: 23 April, 2018 11:23
To: pe...@crispu.com
Cc: VihuelaList
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations

Thank you for your reply.  I wondered about this. I came across the 
information in a roundabout way. It is referred to in the introduction 
to the Tree Edition of guitar pieces by Losy edited by Michael Treder. 
He says about it 

Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung 
Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch 
Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt.

His source of reference is an article by Paul Nettl in Studien zur 
Musikwissenschaft (1929) which just gives the entry in the accounts.

With my very imperfect knowledge of German I couldn't make out any 
reference to Corbetta teaching rather than just giving a performance - 
which is why I sought some expert advice. Leopold I would have been 8 
years old at the time. I wonder if there is any other reference to him 
playing the guitar. 

Any more information or alternative translations would be very helpful.

thank you

Monica



Original Message
From: pe...@crispu.com
Date: 23/04/2018 13:16
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "heiman.
daniel@juno.
com"<heiman.dan...@juno.com>
Cc: "VihuelaList"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations

> on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given

I wonder if that is correct though. 

Would " umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara 
gespielt" not be "while he played for (both?) royals on the guitar"?

Regards
Peter

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf 
Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 3:02 PM
To: heiman.dan...@juno.com
Cc: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations

Thank you very much for your help.  I thought the spelling might be odd 
because I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionary. Nor could 
Google translate.

Best wishes
Monica

Original Message
From: heiman.dan...@juno.com
Date: 23/04/2018 12:34
To: <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] German translations

Monica:

This is an entry in the court financial records for the period 13 
November (1648) to the end of July 1649:

"To Johann Francisco Corbetta, on account (honor) of the instruction in 
guitar playing given to the royal person, 60 florins was handed over."

(The guitar instruction that Kaiser Leopold received in Vienna, while 
still a young prince, from Francesco Corbetta, who lived from ca.1615 
to 1681.)

The ledger entry is full of deviations from the modern accepted 
spellings and word usage of the German language.

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.d

[VIHUELA] Re: German translations

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thank you for your reply.  I wondered about this. I came across the 
information in a roundabout way. It is referred to in the introduction 
to the Tree Edition of guitar pieces by Losy edited by Michael Treder. 
He says about it 

Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung 
Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch 
Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt.

His source of reference is an article by Paul Nettl in Studien zur 
Musikwissenschaft (1929) which just gives the entry in the accounts.

With my very imperfect knowledge of German I couldn't make out any 
reference to Corbetta teaching rather than just giving a performance - 
which is why I sought some expert advice. Leopold I would have been 8 
years old at the time. I wonder if there is any other reference to him 
playing the guitar. 

Any more information or alternative translations would be very helpful.

thank you

Monica



Original Message
From: pe...@crispu.com
Date: 23/04/2018 13:16 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "heiman.daniel@juno.
com"<heiman.dan...@juno.com>
Cc: "VihuelaList"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations

> on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given

I wonder if that is correct though. 

Would " umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara 
gespielt" not be "while he played for (both?) royals on the guitar"?

Regards
Peter

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf 
Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 3:02 PM
To: heiman.dan...@juno.com
Cc: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations

Thank you very much for your help.  I thought the spelling might be odd 
because I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionary. Nor could 
Google translate.

Best wishes
Monica

Original Message
From: heiman.dan...@juno.com
Date: 23/04/2018 12:34
To: <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] German translations

Monica:

This is an entry in the court financial records for the period 13 
November (1648) to the end of July 1649:

"To Johann Francisco Corbetta, on account (honor) of the instruction in 
guitar playing given to the royal person, 60 florins was handed over."

(The guitar instruction that Kaiser Leopold received in Vienna, while 
still a young prince, from Francesco Corbetta, who lived from ca.1615 
to 1681.)

The ledger entry is full of deviations from the modern accepted 
spellings and word usage of the German language.

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: 23 April, 2018 03:26
To: VihuelaList
Subject: [VIHUELA] German translations

I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is 
better than mine could translate the following into English. I can 
guess more or less what it is about but can't fathom out the details.  
He was played 60 fl. for whatever he did

Eintrag in den Hofzahlamtsrechungen für den Zeitrum 13 November (1648) 
bis Ends July 1649 –

Johann Francisco Corbetta Musico umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli 
Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt zur Verehrung dargeraicht 60 fl.

Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung 
Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch 
Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt.

Thanks for any help.

Monica




To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: German translations

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thank you very much for your help.  I thought the spelling might be odd 
because I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionary. Nor could 
Google translate.

Best wishes
Monica

Original Message
From: heiman.dan...@juno.com
Date: 23/04/2018 12:34 
To: <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] German translations

Monica:

This is an entry in the court financial records for the period 13 
November (1648) to the end of July 1649:

"To Johann Francisco Corbetta, on account (honor) of the instruction in 
guitar playing given to the royal person, 60 florins was handed over."

(The guitar instruction that Kaiser Leopold received in Vienna, while 
still a young prince, from Francesco Corbetta, who lived from ca.1615 
to 1681.)

The ledger entry is full of deviations from the modern accepted 
spellings and word usage of the German language.

Regards,

Daniel Heiman

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: 23 April, 2018 03:26
To: VihuelaList
Subject: [VIHUELA] German translations

I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is 
better than mine could translate the following into English. I can 
guess more or less what it is about but can't fathom out the details.  
He was played 60 fl. for whatever he did

Eintrag in den Hofzahlamtsrechungen für den Zeitrum 13 November (1648) 
bis Ends July 1649 –

Johann Francisco Corbetta Musico umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli 
Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt zur Verehrung dargeraicht 60 fl.

Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung 
Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch 
Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt.

Thanks for any help.

Monica




To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] German translations

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is 
better than mine could translate the following into English. I can 
guess more or less what it is about but can't fathom out the details.  
He was played 60 fl. for whatever he did

Eintrag in den Hofzahlamtsrechungen für den Zeitrum 13 November (1648) 
bis Ends July 1649 –

Johann Francisco Corbetta Musico umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli 
Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt zur Verehrung dargeraicht 60 fl.

Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung 
Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch 
Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt.

Thanks for any help.

Monica




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thank you!
Monica

Original Message
From: rockype...@comcast.net
Date: 03/04/2018 16:18 
To: "Monica Hall"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Rob MacKillop"<robmackil...@gmail.com>, "VihuelaList"<vihuela@cs.
dartmouth.edu>, "Nelson, Jocelyn"<nels...@ecu.edu>
Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta

I’ll add my voice to the thanks, too!

— Rocky Mjos


On Apr 3, 2018, at 8:20 AM, Nelson, Jocelyn <nels...@ecu.edu> wrote:

> I agree with Rob, Monica, thank you for your work. Here in North 
Carolina it was a wonderful thing to see first thing in the morning. I 
enjoyed exploring a bit of it before getting into the daily grind.
> Regards,
> Jocelyn
> 
> -- 
> Jocelyn Nelson, DMA
> Teaching Assistant Professor
> Early Guitar, Music History
> ECU School of Music Writing Liaison
> Chancellor’s Leadership Academy Alum 
> 310 Fletcher Music Center
> School of Music
> East Carolina University
> 252.328.1255 office
> 252.328.6258 fax
> nels...@ecu.edu <mailto:nel...@ecu.edu>
> On 4/3/18, 8:38 AM, "lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of 
mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of 
mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
>Thank you for your kind words.
>Hope you are having a pleasant Easter break.
>Monica
> 
>Original Message
>From: robmackil...@gmail.com
>Date: 03/04/2018 12:26 
>To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>Cc: "VihuelaList"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta
> 
>Wow. Well done, Monica, and thanks for sharing. The amount of work 
you 
>give
>to the baroque-guitar community - and for no money - is 
incredible, and 
>you
>should be loudly thanked for it!
> 
>Rob MacKillop
> 
>On 3 April 2018 at 12:19, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu <mjlhall@cs.
>dartmouth.edu
>> wrote:
> 
>> If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather 
>basic
>> tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot
>> ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94.
>> 
>> www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the
>> list of contents.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Monica
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thank you. It is good to hear from you. Hope all is well and the daily 
grind not too grinding.
Regards.
Monica

Original Message
From: nels...@ecu.edu
Date: 03/04/2018 13:20 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "robmackillop@gmail.
com"<robmackil...@gmail.com>
Cc: "VihuelaList"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta

I agree with Rob, Monica, thank you for your work. Here in North 
Carolina it was a wonderful thing to see first thing in the morning. I 
enjoyed exploring a bit of it before getting into the daily grind.
Regards,
Jocelyn

-- 
Jocelyn Nelson, DMA
Teaching Assistant Professor
Early Guitar, Music History
ECU School of Music Writing Liaison
Chancellor’s Leadership Academy Alum 
310 Fletcher Music Center
School of Music
East Carolina University
252.328.1255 office
252.328.6258 fax
nels...@ecu.edu <mailto:nel...@ecu.edu>
On 4/3/18, 8:38 AM, "lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of mjlhall@cs.
dartmouth.edu" <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of mjlhall@cs.
dartmouth.edu> wrote:

Thank you for your kind words.
Hope you are having a pleasant Easter break.
Monica

Original Message
From: robmackil...@gmail.com
Date: 03/04/2018 12:26 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "VihuelaList"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta

Wow. Well done, Monica, and thanks for sharing. The amount of work 
you 
give
to the baroque-guitar community - and for no money - is incredible, 
and 
    you
    should be loudly thanked for it!

Rob MacKillop

On 3 April 2018 at 12:19, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu <mjlhall@cs.
dartmouth.edu
> wrote:

> If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a 
rather 
basic
> tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the 
Gallot
> ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94.
>
> www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of 
the
> list of contents.
>
> Regards
> Monica
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[VIHUELA] Re: Corbetta

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thank you for your kind words.
Hope you are having a pleasant Easter break.
Monica

Original Message
From: robmackil...@gmail.com
Date: 03/04/2018 12:26 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "VihuelaList"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: Re: [VIHUELA] Corbetta

Wow. Well done, Monica, and thanks for sharing. The amount of work you 
give
to the baroque-guitar community - and for no money - is incredible, and 
you
should be loudly thanked for it!

Rob MacKillop

On 3 April 2018 at 12:19, mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu <mjlhall@cs.
dartmouth.edu
> wrote:

> If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather 
basic
> tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot
> ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94.
>
> www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the
> list of contents.
>
> Regards
> Monica
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[VIHUELA] Corbetta

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

If anyone is interested I have now added to my web pages a rather basic 
tablature edition of the pieces attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot 
ms. GB-Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94.

www.monicahall.co.uk/corbetta . It is second from the bottom of the 
list of contents.

Regards
Monica 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] MS (CZ-Bm D 189) - life after death....

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Martyn

Stewart McCoy once gave me some very good advice - 

"The person who insists on having the last word is the person who is in 
the wrong".

I'll leave you to have the last word.

Monica



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: MS CZ- Bm D 189 - the Last Post

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Dear Martyn

I am sorry to have denied you the opportunity to fully reply to my 
message of 31 Jan and its various inconsistencies and 
'misrepresentations'.

I prefer to consider my inconsistencies and “misrepresentation”s as an 
attempt to keep an open mind and examine different ideas about what we 
find in this manuscript before arriving at any tentative conclusions. 
(Incidentally the correct RISM siglum for the manuscript is CZ-Bm D 
189).

In my final message I clearly stated –

1. It is clear from the chart on f.48r that the “Gytarra” is a 6-
course 
instrument. It may be synonymous with the 6-course mandora which 
Martyn 
says was common at the time. It is also clear that the section between 
the first two double bar lines on f.48v is a tuning check for the 6-
course “Gytarra” on f.48r; the last bar shows that the open bass is 
tuned to the same note as the third course.

2. The second section on the first stave shows the additional bass 
courses of the “Mandora” numbered 6-12 starting with G.

3. It seems to me that these two instruments may belong to a very 
broad 
genus of lute shaped instruments with added basses but their precise 
identity is uncertain.

4. The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for the “Gytarra”; those from f.60r-
f. 76r are for a 5-course “Mandora”; and those from f.76v-f.95r 
numbered 1-56 are probably for 5-course guitar.

Your suggestion that we should now agree to disagree simply indicates 
that you are not willing to admit that anything you say is wrong.  A 
number of things you have said are nonsensical.

1. The fact that the manuscript includes a piece by Losy does not 
indicate that it was copied during his life time. It could have been 
copied anytime in the 18th century, at least as late as the 1760s.

2. Your comment -  “A multi-course theorboed mandora with twelve 
courses never existed in the period covered by the dating of D- 189.” 

You may not have come across another reference to such an instrument 
referred to as a “mandora” in another 18th century source but this 
does 
not prove that such an instrument didn’t exist in Rajhrad at the time 
the manuscript was copied. It may have been quite rare.

3. Your comment- “Accordingly, the most likely, and reasonable, 
identification of the couple of works for an instrument with seven 
extra basses is the arch/theorboed guitar”.

It certainly is  not a likely and reasonable identification  – there 
are all sorts of other instruments which it might have been. It 
certainly doesn’t prove that it was figure-of-eight shaped.

4. Your comment - “Incidentally I don't know why the duet Boure (f. 
69v) for Mandora 1 and 2 does not employ the sixth course: perhaps the 
composer preferred this particular piece with these instruments this 
way or maybe they didn't have two guitars available? “

No, you obviously don't know - The parts are labelled in that way to 
indicate that the two pieces are to be played as a duet rather than as 
separate pieces for a single mandora. Your suggestion that they didn’t 
have two guitars available is a fairy tale. You just don’t want to 
admit that that section of pieces is for a 5-course “mandora” not the 
5-
course guitar.

5. Your comment - “ the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in Keys 
where low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the 
following 
keys of G, F. C and D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the upper 
octave:" "a distinctive feature of the guitar, but not of the period 
mandora, etc."

Clearly it is a feature of the 5-course mandora for which these pieces 
were intended - unavoidable in the key of D major. All the pieces in 
D  
major exhibit this feature.

Observations of this kind would not be acceptable even in 
undergraduate 
work.

I think I have said on several occasions that I do not think the fact 
that this manuscript (or any other source) includes music for both 
mandora and 5-course guitar has any bearing on whether the low octave 
string(s) were placed on the thumb side of a course on the 5-course 
guitar  in Germany or elsewhere. We simply don't know. 

I am sorry if you feel you are being bullied. At least I only send my 
messages to the Vihuela List. I don’t send them to other lists with 
the 
intention of discrediting someone with whom I happen to disagree, so 
that as many people as possible can read them.

There is no justification for sending 600 words of unpleasant personal 
comments which have nothing to do with the mandora or gallicon to the 
Baroque Lute List.

Because you persist in doing this means that I have no choice but to 
send my messages to both lists too to ensure that my views are fairly 
represented.

As ever

Monica

 

Dear Monica,
That's a shame since, due to all these baroque manoeuvrings around the 
mandora and gytarra, we've never actually got round to properly 
considering the original issue I raised!  This, you may recall, 
was whether the widespread use in the seventeenth century of the high 
octave on the bass (thumb) side of 

[VIHUELA] MS CZ- Bm D 189

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Dear Martyn

If you had taken the trouble to read the message that I sent to the 
list on 31st January you would know what my conclusions about this 
manuscript were. There is no need for me to clarify my position further 
and I do not believe you are interested in composing a constructive 
reply.

It seems that all you are interested in is bullying someone who 
disagrees with you by misrepresenting what they have said and by 
posting offensive personal comments about them to as many people as you 
can.

As far I am concerned the matter is now closed. 

Monica

Dear Monica,
Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply scroll down 
to find it..
Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would you now 
please simply and, is it too much to hope, politely answer the direct 
question put to you. As carefully explained, this will provide you 
with the opportunity to properly clarify your precise position over 
the instruments required for the pieces in this MS and will then 
enable a constructive reply to be composed. 
Here's the relevant question again:
'- as I understand it from what you have written, your position 
is that the vast 
majority (about 98%) of  the some 124 works for plucked instruments in 
this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a 
mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with  five 
fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora 
has seven unstopped basses" )'
Is this still a correct statement of your position?
regards

Martyn





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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Dear Martyn

The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I 
sent to the Vihuela List  on the 31st January.
I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT 
CAREFULLY.  It is the second down below your latest message.
Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say 
about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking 
about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas.

Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I 
received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't 
think that anyone on that list  interested in anything you have to 
say.  I don't want to receive three copies of every message you see fit 
to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist.

As ever

Monica




Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 09/02/2018 16:43 
To: "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a 
fresh tack! 2

From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
   Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 
2
   Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' 
list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to 
enable
   me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm
   precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for 
the
   pieces in this MS.  In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is 
that
   the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" )'
   Is this a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a 
lute
   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!
   
===
   ==
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by
   saying that you 'were going to leave it  for now' and I therefore 
took
   this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner,
I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts.
   However, I shall do so now.
   
---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of
   Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora
   stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's 
not
   a fiendish plot of any kind!  But on
with the motley..
   
---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases
 and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required:
   one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and 
source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder
   requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, 
as I
   was at pains to point out earlier,
any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a
   low sixth where suitable in the
guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a 

[VIHUELA] CZ-Bm D 189 unpicked

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Martyn – RE: CZ-Bm D 189 My Response to Your Message of 29th January

I will try to to be concise and stick to the point. I have deleted 
sections from Martyn’s message which I think are irrelevant and 
rearranged some of his comments to achieve a more logical appraisal of 
the  manuscript. 

1.  General Background 

The manuscript belonged to and was presumably copied by someone at the 
Benedictine Monastery in Rajhrad, a town in Brno-Country District in 
Moravia.  I have not been able to trace a detailed bibliographical 
description of it and  I have not been able to check RISM but even 
entries in RISM are not always reliable. I have not seen the manuscript 
myself and I don’t think that Martyn has either. A copy, however good, 
still leaves a lot of unanswered questions. The manuscript includes, 
among other things, didactic material, arrangements of vocal and 
instrumental pieces by Lully, other vocal music, a sonata for trombone 
and music for viola da gamba. Some of the headings and text are in 
Latin, some in Czech or German. I don’t know if anyone has identified 
any of the other pieces but it would be necessary to do this before 
deciding on a possible date for the manuscript.

2.  Date

Martyn’s comment -

“1. DATE OF D-189
You stated that the MS could have been written "anytime in the 
eighteenth century" - but with no evidence for this assertion. I do, of 
course, understand why you favour such a wide range of dates since it 
may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar 
(developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all the 
plucked works in this collection”.

My comment –

I have NEVER suggested throughout this discussion that either of the 
tablature charts or any of the music in this manuscript are for 6-
course early classical guitar. I pointed this out in my private e-mail 
to Martyn but he has ignored this and most of the rest of what I have 
said. This is a clear indication that he has not read my messages 
before replying to them.

Martyn’s comment - 

“However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier, 
including:James Tyler - 'early 18th century';Gary Boye - 'beginning of 
the 18th century';Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700); Jaroslav 
Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor 1700 
geschrieben' (written before 1700)”.

My comment -

Pohlman and Pohanska’s writings out of date and not entirely accurate. 
Tyler and Gary Boye are probably just copying what these previous 
writers have said. 

Martyn’s comment – 

“My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed to 
C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720. Accordingly, to summarise, the best date 
range estimate for compilation of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720”.

My comment –

You cannot date manuscripts in this way.  Losy died in 1721.  However, 
there is no reason to suppose that the manuscript was copied during his 
lifetime. Music by Corbetta was still being copied fifty years after 
his death. Likewise, Losy’s music would still have been popular twenty, 
thirty or more years after his death. Stylistic traits are no guide to 
dating.  As somebody said recently on the Lute List

“As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be 
avoided because it cannot be valid evidence”.

There is nothing distinctively early 18th century about the music, most 
of which is quite trivial.

Perhaps, Dear Martyn, you should do a course in Musicology!
 
Ewa Bielińska-Galas, the most recent person to refer to the manuscript, 
says in her article only that it is 18th century. She refers to it as a 
manuscript of music for the mandora and has indicated in her table that 
both versions of the Losy pieces are for mandora.

3.  The Tablature charts

f.48v   Fundamenta Gytarra

In his message of 4th of January Martyn said

“folio 48 …..gives elementary instructions for the five course guitar ' 
Fundamenta Chytarra'”.

I pointed out that the heading is actually Fundamenta “Gytarra”. This 
is the only instrument mentioned in the heading. I think Martyn is 
mistaken in claiming that these instructions are intended for a 5-
course guitar.

They are instructions on how to read tablature. The first segment 
between the double bars shows the open courses of a SIX- course 
instrument represented by letter “a”.  These are clearly labeled  1-6 
in descending order with the “a” for sixth  open course placed below 
the tablature stave in the last bar.  This clearly refers to the 
“Gytarra”; no other instrument is mentioned. This is followed by 
segments illustrating the five stopped courses at the 1st-9th fret 
represented by the letter b-k. There are also the signs for ornaments, 
time signatures and note values.

f.48v   Accordo Gytarra et Mandora

Martyn’s comment on this was  – 

 “3. ACCORDO GYTARRA ET MANDORA
The tablature system with five lines on f.48v. between the first double 
bar lines gives octave tuning checks in the usual manner.  It shows 

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Martyn

I am not going to comment in detail on your pathetic attempt to 
discredit everything that I say.  If you think that your rant at the 
beginning of your message of 14th January, sent to both the vihuela and 
baroque lute lists, constitutes general politeness you have very 
strange ideas as to what is good manners.

I am now trying to reply to what you have said in your previous message 
but I am not sure that it is worth the effort.

Monica


Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 30/01/2018 10:35 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "vihuela@cs.
dartmouth.edu"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: [VIHUELA]  Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack! 2

Dear Monica,
   I don't usually 'knee-jerk' these things but was truly astonished at
   your wild reaction (below) to my  calm email yesterday in which I 
had
   carefully tried to avoid our earlier combative exchanges and present 
a
   different (ie non-subjective) approach in a non-confrontational 
manner
   - 'a fresh tack'..
   I'll also be interested to see what communications you privately 
sent
   to me that I've leaked in an open public forum in my mailing of
   yesterday.  As far as I can see, the only intimation to anybody else
   that you've privately communicated is my opening phrase in this 
email
   "As you now know" 
   I have already explained that reading our previous communications 
has
   so far clearly failed to influence each other - but just because I
   disagreed with you doesn't mean I didn't read them!  In fact 
yesterday
   I raised this very matter and intentionally wrote (see below)  "Our
   exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each
   other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any  progress,
   another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and  closer
   related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence."
   All the quotations I used from you are from your open public 
mailings
   to this forum and are taken verbatim and were not edited - perhaps 
you
   changed your mind subsequently.
   Finally, I do think general politeness is important in these 
exchanges
   and thus I'll be interested to read of the "torrent of personal 
abuse"
   directed towards you - other than, naturally, simply fair comment.
   regards
   Martyn
 ______

   From: "mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" <mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 20:28
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which 
in
   part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.
   It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read 
any
   of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I
   have said in them.
   I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his
   messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that 
he
   is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.
   Watch this space!
   As ever
   Monica
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 29/01/2018 17:16
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!
   - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
 Dear Monica,
 As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
 mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going
   to   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might
   soon
 expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in 
a
 piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying 
and
 awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.

   
---

 Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
 generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're 
relevant
 there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can  find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's
   not
   a   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..

   
---

 Our exchanges of 'te

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in 
part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.

It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any 
of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I 
have said in them.

I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his 
messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he 
is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.

Watch this space!

As ever

Monica


Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 29/01/2018 17:16 
To: "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!

- Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going 
to
   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
   awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.
   
---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
   there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar) 
can
   find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not 
a
   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..
   
---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
   progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps 
and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and 
source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just 
three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder requiring just five courses are
   principally for gytarra (although, as I was at pains to point out
   earlier, any passably competent mandora player would easily be able 
to
   add a low sixth where suitable in the guitar pieces and similarly, 
in
   many cases, a guitarist would be able to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional free basses notated also have a left
   hand fingered bass notated in the usual register and, whilst we've 
not
   discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course 
numberings
   are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces (note also
   that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way through 
the
   piece numbered 45! ).
   
---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no evidence for this assertion. I 
do,
   of course, understand why you favour such a  wide range of dates 
since
   it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later in the eighteenth century) for all 
the
   plucked works in this collection
   However, others date the writing of this MS considerably earlier,
   including:
   James Tyler - 'early 18th century';
   Gary Boye - 'beginning of the 18th century';
   Ernst Pohlmann - 'um 1700' (around 1700);
   Jaroslav Pohanka (Principal editor of Musica Antiqua Bohemia) - 'vor
   1700 geschrieben' (written before 1700);
   My own dating (based on stylistic traits and the piece attributed  
to
   C. Loschi) is 1700 to 1720.
   Accordingly, to summarise, the best date range estimate for 
compilation
   of this MS lies between 1690 and 1720.
   
---
   --
   2. CALLICHON/MANDORA
   Around 70 extant historical mandoras/gallichons 

[VIHUELA] Re: Campanelle

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Thank you -  Lex - that's all very interesting.  Incidentally Medard 
includes an example of a "Campanelle" in  1676 and there are campanelle 
passages in some of the works attributed to Corbetta in the Gallot Ms.
Monica

Original Message
From: lex.eisenha...@gmail.com
Date: 24/01/2018 21:00 
To: "Vihuelalist"
Subj: [VIHUELA] Campanelle

Today I uploaded a new paper:


   [1]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf


   Lex

   --

References

   1. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf


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[VIHUELA] Re: A few more thought on the Moravian Ms.CZ-Bm D189

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

I have had a bit more time to look at this.

In the message which Martyn posted on 7th January commenting on an 
earlier message
of mine he said -

"Simply overlooked is that the majority of pieces after F. 67 are in 
keys
where low G is at least as helpful as for the works on in the following
keys of G, F. Cand D - BUT the scribe writes the G at the upper 
octave:"

"a distinctive feature of the guitar, but not not of the period 
mandora, etc."

"Good practical examples include: the Echo on f68 where the penultimate
bar would better with a low sixth course G - but the scribe writes a 
high
third course, guitar appropriate g and numerous similar examples."

However I would point out 

On f.69v-f.70r there is a boure evidently intended to be played by two 
mandoras.
In Boure Mandora 1a there is  skip of a 7th in the bass line in bar 3 
and bar 11 
In Boure Mandora 2a there also is a skip of a 7th in the bass line in 
bar 3 and
in bar 11 (the fourth bar on the first stave of f.70r).

It is a reasonable assumption that the 5-course pieces at least as far 
as f.76r 
are for a 5-course mandora. That probably explains why there are two 
versions of 
the Losy piece.

The pieces from f.76v may be for 5-course guitar – which is what I 
suggested. 
(Martyn clearly had not read my message when commenting on it). 
 
There are quite a few 5-part chords and in one place there is an 
indication that
the chords should be strummed.
In the untitled piece on f.88r the two A major chords in bar 8 are to 
be strummed.

The most likely explanation seems to me to be that the "gytarra" is a 5-
course mandora with one
additional unstopped bass.  The pieces from f.48v-f.59v are for 
gytarra; those from f.60r-
f.76r are for a 5-course mandora; and those from f.76v-f.95r numbered 1-
56 for 5-course guitar.

It is better not to jump to conclusions about complex documents of this 
kind. 

Because Martyn thought it was appropriate to send his lengthy message 
not only to this list, 
but to the Baroque Lute list and even the Lute List as well, it only 
appears on
the Baroque Lute list. 

In the future I suggest he sends his messages only to the list where 
the discussion is 
taking place. Also that he reads the message he is replying to all the 
way through and then 
composes a concise and coherent reply. If necessary you can copy and 
paste the passages which
you need to refer to.   It is not helpful to go through a message 
inserting
comments at random especially on the list where any kind of formatting 
is not reproduced. 

As ever

Monica









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[VIHUELA] Further to the Moravsky Ms.

[mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu]

Personally I think it would be better to confine the discussion to the 
vihuela list where it was initiated. I don't think it is appropriate to 
post extended character assassinations to a public discussion list so  
my 
response will focus an the manuscript itself.

This is just a summary of my views after spending some time studying it 
over the last few days.

As far as I can see the manuscript is undated.  It could have been 
copied any time in the 18th century.  It was probably copied over a 
considerable period of time – it also includes vocal music and a piece 
for trombone and bass. There are different sections to it.

Tuning Charts

f.48r   Fundamenta Gytarra

This chart clearly indicates that this “Gytarra” has 5 stopped courses 
tuned to the same intervals as the baroque guitar and one additional 
unstopped bass tuned a tone below the 5th.  This is not a 5-course 
guitar; it is a 6-course instrument as I think Daniel pointed out in 
his original message. Whether it is a figure of 8 shaped instrument at 
all is another matter. 

f.48v   Accordo Gytarra et Mandora

The first section of this chart between the two double bar lines shows 
the stringing of a six-course instrument not a five course one.  This 
is the same as the stringing for the “gytarra” shown on f.48r.
The second section between the two double bar lines shows the seven 
unstopped courses of the mandora.

Your comment - 1. Tuning chart on f.48v: The basic tuning checks 
('Accordo Gytarra et Mandora') given between the first double bar lines 
are for a five course guitar and for a six course.
 
I think you are mistaken. They are not. Nothing in the chart is 
intended to apply to a 5-course instrument. One of the instruments has 
one unstopped bass; the other has seven. It is just possible that the 
open basses are interchangeable between the two instruments.

Your comment - 2. The tuning for an extended bass 12 course instrument 
refers to a guitar. 

I  disagree with you on several counts as I have tried to explain in 
previous messages. I don't think it refers to a theorboed guitar. From 
the heading it would appear that the first section relates to the 
"Gytarra" and the second to the mandora.

Your comment - You appear to believe that there was a form of mandora 
at this time (the early eighteenth century) with 'seven unstopped 
courses'.  In my long researches into the instrument I've come across 
nothing to support this view and if you are really aware (rather than 
merely simply asserting this for effect) of any evidence to the 
contrary I'd be very grateful for it.

I don’t believe anything of the sort.  I am just trying to understand 
what this particular manuscript tells us about these two particular 
instruments.  I am not interested in asserting anything for effect. 
Most of your research seems to be based on speculation. As the 
manuscript is undated we don’t know what period it relates to. It could 
have been copied any time from the early 17th century onwards.  It 
would be necessary to identify some of the other pieces, in particular 
the vocal pieces, to try and arrive at a more specific date.

All that I said about the music was -

As far as the pieces are concerned, whether or not the unstopped sixth 
course is used seems to depend on the key of the piece. Those on f.48v- 
f.59v which use the sixth course are mostly in C major or keys without 
sharps, whilst those from f. 60r –f.76v are in A major or D
major i.e. keys with sharps where there is no call for a low G.

>From f.76v the pieces are numbered starting with 1 which seems to 
represent a new “campaign” of copying. None of them use the unstopped G 
– they could be for 5-course guitar or whatever instrument you wish. 
There is nothing that lends weight to your suggestion that the 
"gytarra" is a figure of eight-shaped instrument. It is could be lute 
shaped or figure of eight - we simply don't know.

Your response to this perfectly reasonable observation was

Surely you can't expect us to agree to this procrustean interpreation? 
You singularly overlook the bulk of all the pieces also in C to F and 
those in G and D from later in the MS. And I've already clearly 
identified where the same (Losy?) piece was tellingly transcribed - 
which surely disproves your suggestion: 'a single counter example 
disproves a proposition..!'] 

(Does it? Since when?)

If any one suggests an explanation which is different from your own 
preconceived ideas it is dismissed as “procrustean”.  If anyone is 
procrustean it is you.  In truth it hadn’t occurred to you that there 
might be another explanation, and rather than consider it with an open 
mind you dismiss it in a patronising way.  Your comment about Losy is 
beside the point – I have clearly said that the pieces from f.76v may 
be for 5-course guitar anyway. 

I have been able to spend a bit more time looking at the music.

Summary

f.48v – f.57v   Pieces with open 6th course in C major/A minor/F major/D 
minor with