[VIHUELA] Birds
Dear collective wisdom We've been invited to play at an early music festival. The theme this year will be birds. Do you know any piece about birds for baroque guitar or theorbo? Thanks a lot Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Matheo Bezon
Thank you very much, Monica. Most interesting! Best regards eloy On 6/5/13 2:42 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: http://www.resonancejournal.org/current-issue/spr-2013/spanish-song- chitarra-alla-spagnola-and-the-a-bi-ci-matheo-bezon-and-his-1599-alfabe to-songbook/#n84 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Fuenllana
Dear Monica, List Charles Jacobs, in his edition of Orphenica Lyra (OUP, 1978), says something about Fuenllana's date(s) of death. Apparently there's some problem, because certain documents imply an earlier death, but her daughter latter mentions him as alive at a latter date, or something like that. I don't have this book at hand, but a soon as I can find it, I'll try to find out what it really says. Regards eloy Monica Hall 1/2/13 11:40 AM mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk I don't think there is anything in the prologue - they weren't very worried about things like dates of birth! I agree - 1520 seems more likely for his birth. I think there might be some evidence that he was till alive in 1579. I'm sure I read something to that effect recently. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Fuenllana Well, Orphenica Lyra is 1554 and I'd not think he'd be much younger than around 30 for such a prestigious (and large - ie expensive) publication. So I'd put his date of birth around 1520. I suspect the c 1500 - 1579 means that 1500 is a guess but 1579 is evidenced. 1579 also fits with average adult lifespan of the period of around 60 (ie excluding children with their extremely high early mortality rate). Is there nothing in the extensive prologue, dedication, notes which give some idea of his history? Martyn --- On Wed, 2/1/13, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Fuenllana To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 2 January, 2013, 14:33 Does anyone have any dates for Fuenllana. I have just come across a source which gives them as c.1500-1579. It seems unlikely to me that he would have lived to be 79... Groves gives fl. 1553-1578. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Test
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[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra española de cinco órdenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz´s Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hágase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compás, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any classic guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Martyn
Yes, 6 guitars is a very peculiar continuo band.
As I said, I remember no evidence of such a band, or particularly guitars,
playing at the cathedral in Padilla's times. But now that you mention it,
many years ago, an american musicologist told me something about the music
chapel of Puebla inviting some popular musicians to join them for the
performance of some villancicos or something like that. I'm trying to
confirm this reference, but Dr. Stanford is apparently not available at this
time. Whenever I get some info I'll let you know
Greetings
eloy
El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribió:
Thank you for this Eloy.
But, of course, it might be said that 6 guitars, percussion and conch
shell is already excessive. The question is: what evidence do we have
that such instruments, and in such numbers, were expected by JG de
Padilla and his auditors in contemporary performances of his setting of
Missa Ego flos campi.
Perhaps they were commonly employed, but are there any early records of
this?
Martyn
--- On Thu, 15/12/11, Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com wrote:
From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 19:35
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected
a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is
there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy
perhaps could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
Well, I know no excessive strumming in some modern fashionable
performances
of South American sacred settings. The only example that comes to my
mind
is the Missa Mexicana CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa
Ego
flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes 6 guitar
players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal
version
of Murcia's Cumbees alla Swingle Singers.
The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a set of 6
matched
Veracruz baroque guitars was specially made for this project. Anyway,
I
can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
Cheers
eloy
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
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References
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[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have expected a
strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed, is there
even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
fashionable performances of South American sacred settings?
Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy perhaps could
tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
Well, I know no excessive strumming in some modern fashionable performances
of South American sacred settings. The only example that comes to my mind
is the Missa Mexicana CD by the Harp Consort: it's a setting of Missa Ego
flos campi by JG de Padilla. The list of performers includes 6 guitar
players and 3 percussion players, one of whom also plays conch shell. I
think this CD could really be called fashionable: in between the Missa
movements, it mixes some dance-songs, villancicos and even a vocal version
of Murcia's Cumbees alla Swingle Singers.
The liner notes only explain that the guitar was the most significant
instrument of Spanish baroque music, and mention that a set of 6 matched
Veracruz baroque guitars was specially made for this project. Anyway, I
can't hear any excessive strumming in any of the tracks.
Cheers
eloy
We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about') often
found in some modern performances of solo songs.
Yes indeed!
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Capona?
Dear Stuart, list This is from Cotarelo y Mori's Colección: p. CCXXXVII. Capona (La) (Baile). Dicc. de Autoridades: ³Son ó baile a modo de la Mariona; pero más rápido y bullicioso, con el cual y á cuyo tañido se cantan varias coplillas². A very bad English translation could be: Music and dance in the way of a Mariona, but faster and noisier; to which music they use to sing several small coplas. In a 17th cent. Spanish play, one of the characters says he won't dance to that music, because it is of very bad circumstances, because the word capon is used to refer to a man who has been emasculated. Best wishes eloy El [FECHA], [NOMBRE] [DIRECCION] escribió: Hi Stuart, I don't know what capona means, and I don't have the music handy, but I enjoyed this. I like your tempo. Best, Jocelyn From: Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 + To: Vihuelalist [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Capona? Timo Peedu has edited some Carbonchi pieces (to be found on his ning early guitar page). Included are two short and simple but unusual pieces with the title 'Capona'. There are a couple of versions of a very fancy Capona by Kapsberger (including one by Rob Mackillop). Any ideas what Capona means? Here is a go at the simple ones by Carbonchi. If I have misunderstood the timing or the way it should be played, I'd like to know (preferably in a polite way!) [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUfrieijW5I 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Santiago de Murcia
Dear Edward Thanks a lot for your words; yes, we had a little American tour with Jordi, and the people of NPR made this transatlantic interview. Best eloy El 10/30/10 1:11 PM, Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com escribió: Dear Eloy, I heard you 2 days ago, on National Public Radio, in which you and Jordi Savall were interviewed, and the sow was wonderful, a melding of Spanish and Mexican music. Well done! ed At 11:17 AM 10/30/2010, Eloy Cruz wrote: Dear Monica, thanks a lot for the good news. I wonder why the facsimile is dark; the two pages of the ms reproduced in Vera's Early Music article are certainly darkish but perfectly readable, and, as you say, the other Murcia mss are ok (the Codice Saldivar 4 is ju= st as clear as you describe its probable companion, the Passacalles). Anyway, I very much look forward to explore this book Best eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela de pé ndola
Dear all I went to http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/24661685545133385754491/p 001.htm#26 And found the book. Verses 1228-1237 deal with musical instruments: Allí sale gritando la guitarra morisca1228 de las voses aguda e de los puntos arisca, el corpudo laúd que tiene punto a la trisca, la guitarra latina con ésos se aprisca. El rabé gritador con la su alta nota,1229 cab' él el orabín taniendo la su rota, el salterio con ellos más alto que la mota, la vihuela de péndola con aquéstos y sota. Medio caño et arpa con el rabé morisco,1230 entr' ellos alegrança el gálipe françisco, la rota dis' con ellos más alta que un risco, con ella el tamborete, sin él non vale un prisco. La vihuela de arco fas' dulçes de bayladas,1231 adormiendo a veses, muy alto a las vegadas, voses dulses, sabrosas, claras et bien pintadas, a las gentes alegra, todas las tiene pagadas. Dulçe caño entero sal' con el panderete,1232 con sonajas de asófar fasen dulçe sonete, los órganos y disen chançones e motete, la adedura albardana entre ellos se entremete. Dulçema, e axabeba, el finchado albogón,1233 çinfonia e baldosa en esta fiesta son, el françés odreçillo con éstos se compón', la neçiancha(80) mandurria allí fase su son. Trompas e añafiles salen con atambales,1234 non fueron tiempo ha plasenterías tales, tan grandes alegrías nin atán comunales, de juglares van llenas cuestas e eriales. Some words are hypertexts and take you to a page that's a glossary, so, they give the follow definitions: Apriscarse. Juntarse como en aprisco. And the DRAE says that aprisco means: aprisco. (De apriscar). 1. m. Paraje donde los pastores recogen el ganado para resguardarlo de la intemperie. And the mistery word: Sotar. Saltar, bailar. I don't know who made this glossary, but perhaps he didn't know about musical instruments, because he defines Laúd as: Laúd. Laude, alabanza. Best eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela de pé ndola
Also, I forgot The DRAE, Diccionario de la Real Academia Española defines mota as 6. f. Eminencia de poca altura, natural o artificial, que se levanta sola en un llano. I don't remember, but, did I read somewhere that a mota was a tower, the first type of building that later became a castle, and that it was always made on top of a hill, or something? Best eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Péñola
Sorry, once again the DRAE: péñola. (Del lat. pennŭla, pluma). 1. f. pluma (‖ de ave para escribir). Yes, a quill Best Eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Building my second instrument - my first vihuela - why carving from one piece
Dear Bill, Waling, list I've never seen any historical references to guitars made out of a single piece of wood, the closest is the little story Minguet tells about how he himself learned how to play the guitar: when he was a boy he bought a guitar tutor (Amat?), he then went to a carpenter's apprentice and asked him to saw the outline of a treble guitar out of a piece of wood, and to add to the contraption a bridge, a ceja, 5 pegs (and strings) and the 4 necessary frets, then he used his tutor to taught himself, and continued his self-teaching using the books of Sanz and Murcia. The jaranas and requintos jarochos and other traditional guitars are made of a single piece as well, which could attest certain practice in old times: fine guitars assembled, and humble pop guitars carved. Waling is right when he says it's easier to carve than to assemble a guitar. And it's much faster: a baroque-guitar maker will make you wait at least a year, the jarana maker will have the new instrument in one-two weeks... Best wishes eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: la lloroncita
Dear Bill, Monica, List It's very interesting that Los Ympossibles from CS4 are virtually the same piece as today's La Lloroncita from veracruz. I think it's also very much alike a song from argentina, but right now I can't remember the name of it... It's also interesting that los ymposibles has a pattern much like that of las vacas, which is based (is it? which one is older? I don't know) on the romanesca. Curious, though, that in this source are included both las bacas and los ympossibles, probably Murcia didn't think of them as the same thing Now I copy from a mail I sent to Bill (sorry Bill, I'm too lazy): The lloronas are a family of ³sones² in mexico, there are like a dozen different versions, the most famous probably the one from oaxaca, that chavela vargas sings in the hollywood film ³frida², about mrs Kahlo... The legends about lloronas come from prehispanic times, and originally refer, amongst many other things, to the ³cihuateotl², a woman who dies when delivering her first baby and who becomes a ghost that haunts the roads and a trophy for burglars; legends span for 500 years (or more) and are alive today; even, when I was little, so long ago, my grandma used to say that la llorona could be heard in our own street in mexico city now and then... But the songs, the lloronas, seem to have no connection with these legends, they always refer to broken-hearted people. Usually the sones don¹t have an articulated text, each sung verse could come from a different time and place and they have no connection with one another. The lloroncita from Veracruz that we include in the cd is, in each of the verses: the lament of a lonely man who cries for the absence of the beloved one, or who cries for his condition of being in jail without his sweetheart, or about having a bed but no one to share it with, or that complains about his inability to love... I could try to translate them, but they are way beyond my translating abilities, I¹m afraid I would render a ridiculous version... eloy El 1/14/08 10:16 AM, bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: lately, i've been listening (and bopping around the kitchen) to laberinto en la guitarra with eloy cruz. fabulous stuff. on the disc there's a folia called la lloroncita that might be an alternate to the guardame las vacas lyrics rob was looking for. la llorona is a real south of the border weepy about a beautiful native girl who is seduced by a dashing caballero, has several children by him, is subsequently dropped and becomes so unhinged by this abandonment that she throws first her children and then herself into the river to drown. ... there after, at night, by the river, her spirit can be heard calling for her murdered children. .. perfect stuff for the tragic chord progression of la folia. i've asked eloy for help but if anyone has an english translation of this song would they please let me know. babelfish was exactly that ... pure babel and decidedly fishy. http://billkilpatrickhaiku.blogspot.com/ - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Codice Martinez Compañon
Dear Bill, List: Now that Bill was talking about the Zuola, I remeber that other ms. from Peru, the codice martinez Compañon is available online, it has many wonderful images of life in Peru in 18th cent and several pieces of music that Bill could use with great advantage on his charango. The news was in the vihue-lista some years ago, but perhaps someone still did't know It's at http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaObra.html?Ref=35 Best eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guerau recording
Dear Stuart, list I agree with you, this pieces can be anything you want, and they can be played in a dancy or in a more serious, instrumental way. The Vacas was a baile, a rithmic thing, but Sebastian de Covarruvias defines it this way Las Vacas es una cierta sonada entre músicos, y sobre ella han hecho grandes diferencias de contrapunto y pasos forzados Which in my opinion implies a more complex and elaborate musical treatment, just like Guerau Best wishes eloy El 10/16/07 1:50 PM, Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: I never noted any sarcastic remarks from anyone. Relax. And post more. Rob PS I'm not being sarcastic :-) Honest! I hope I can take a few sarcastic remarks in my stride. Rob, thanks for your reply and encouragement. Like you, I wish more people would post things. In a way, even nicer are little videos - like the ones that Bill does. If anyone fancies a crack at the opening of Jacaras, here it is: http://www.tuningsinthirds.com/Guerau/Jacarasopening.jpg Looks easy eh? If this were arranged for modern classical guitar it would probably only be about grade 5 or maybe 6), do you think? Anyway, I find it pretty tough going - as you heard! You suggest to play it more like a dance. But I dunno... It seems just too 'weighty' and the little rhythmic figures (after the first line of music) seem to want to go across the barlines sometimes. Guerau does suggest that these pieces are for moral improvement. Perhaps you really could dance around to Sanz dance variations but I can't imagine anyone springing to their feet with this stuff. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Gallardas by sanz on charango
Dear Bill It's wonderful This guy seems to have the knack of the charango style. He didn't make just another version of Sanz's piece, he actually made a brand new charango piece. Where is he from? Best wishes eloy El 7/29/07 6:10 PM, bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: here's a youtube video made by a contributor to the yahoo.charango list: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpVVlz_R4cA .. an informal rendition but i'd be curious to hear your reaction. tolo is the man's son, who normally plays guitar accompaniment. - bill http://earlymusiccharango.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Eloy's photos
Dear Alexander and list Sorry for taking so long in replying, I had some concerts in Singapore and Malaysia and didn't have easy access to internet for 2 weeks. I think you are right about the frets of this instrument, in fact, I think it's sketchy in almost every respect (as most of these church instruments are). I'm not really sure an instrument called citara and having this system of fretting would be anachronistic in mid-late 18th century Mexico, in fact, the Codice Saldivar 2, which is doubtlessly for cittern with semi-frets (what's the proper English name of this kind of fretting?) is probably from 18th century. I very much contend that here in the Colonies the history of instruments was different than in Europe, and instruments that were old and almost forgotten in Europe were still in use here (or even are still in use today). I have one literary reference to a woman playing citara in Mexico City in the early 1840s. Sadly, the writer doesn't describe the citara, but in other parts of his book, he clearly refers to guitars and other instruments, so, probably he wasn't using a literary image to describe a guitar. You told me about the instrument in Sisal, it's too bad that Yucatan is so far away from Mexico City, I can't afford a trip there to see the paintings, but it's a good pretext to organize a summer vacation there... my children would be more than happy Best wishes eloy El 6/7/07 3:03 PM, Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: On Saturday, June 02, 2007 3:07 AM Eloy Cruz wrote: The citara is still the one and only hispanic baroque portrait of a cittern that have come to my notice, I love the detail of the semi frets... I think the only instruments with this kind of frets are citterns, I know of no bandurria or other thing with semi frets, but who knows, do you Monica?... Dear Eloy, The presence of the so-called semi-frets on this illustration is rather questionable (i.e. referring to those small bits of 'something' in vicinity of what is depicted as, supposedly, 'whole frets'). Proper semi-frets would have to be positioned somewhere mid-way in-between whole frets. This is not to say that the fret spaces in general are shown disproportionably large to the overall size of the instrument pointing to a rather sketchy character of the illustration (or at least the details related to frets). Moreover, a cittern the fingerboard of which is equipped with semi frets would be rather anachronistic in the context of the mid-late 18th century instrumentarium. The already mentioned fixed bridge which really rules out the use of metal strings and the lack of plectrum simply compliment the picture. In one of the historical accounts (dated 31 August 1766) at the end of J. Romanillos' latest book The Vihuela da Mano and the Spanish Guitar there is an interesting entry which lists: two pear-shaped vihuelas (dos biguelas de perilla). So I suppose this could well be (along with the bandurria) another possible identification for the instrument under question. On a different subject, one of my customers have passed me information on a 16th century church in Mexico where there are frescoes in which viols are depicted. This is the church of San Bernardino Sisal in the district of Sisal on the outskirts of Valladolid. I wonder if you know about this church and the frescoes? The person was told that they had been uncovered fairly recently below layers of whitewash and are supposed to be more or less contemporary with the church itself (c.1550s). Best wishes, Alexander -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Eloy's photos
Dear Monica list Sorry for taking so long in replying to messages about these paintings, my life is a bit too hectic right now. I wonder if William Bartlett was able to access the pictures (could you William? Otherwise I could mail them to you); whenever I click on flickr it takes me directly to my page, so I'm of no help, but apparently, following Stewart's directions it is possible to find them. Thanks Stewart! The citara is still the one and only hispanic baroque portrait of a cittern that have come to my notice, I love the detail of the semi frets... I think the only instruments with this kind of frets are citterns, I know of no bandurria or other thing with semi frets, but who knows, do you Monica?... But Alexander is right: it's hard to say if the fixed bridge can hold metal strings All instruments from Cocucho and Nurio are from the 2nd half of the 18th century. I don't know dates for the organ of Tlacochahuaya, but I'm fairly sure it's also 18th. The instrument from Cocucho that I label vihuela has, in my opinion, a set of very vihuela-like ornaments, and pegs for 6 strings, could this suggest that The vihuela, the real one, was still alive in 18th cent Mexico? The 6 pegs could stand for 6 courses (as is not uncommon in many paintings). I think it would be too early an instrument to call it a 6-course guitar, as the earliest known source for this instrument is, I think, Vargas y Guzmán's Explicación para tocar la guitarra de punteado..., (Veracruz, 1776, first known copy Cádiz, 1773), and as Vargas says himself, it was a new and also a better instrument than the 5-course one. Otherwise, the instrument in Cocucho has only 4 frets, as recommended for rasgueado. Apparently these 18th cent. guys didn't know (as we do today) that you have to make a choice between vihuela-guitarra. I just uploaded another painting by French artist Edouard Pingret, who was in Mexico in the 1850s. The instrument the woman is playing looks very much like a baroque guitar with 6 pegs. Also, there's a music historian here in Mexico who was furious with me and my ensemble La Fontegara because we made a CD of sonatas from New Spain, and we play a gamba. She very strongly states that viols were not played in Mexico, so, I think I have to change, and the instrument I called a viola, now must be called a 6-string cello Best wishes eloy - Original Message - From: Monica Hall To: Vihuelalist Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 9:11 AM Subject: Fw: Eloy's photos - Original Message - From: Monica Hall To: Vihuelalist Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: Eloy's photos I have at last been able to access Eloy's photos. They are brilliant especially the citara. What is the date of them? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Instruments from Mexico
Dear List I followed Bill's advice and uploaded the pictures at http://www.flickr.com/ Where you can find them under my name, Eloy Cruz Best wishes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Some instruments from Mexico
Dear List In a recent trip to the Mexican state of Michoacan a came across some instrumental iconography. In a couple of 16th cent churches there are some 18th cent decorations with angel musicians who play several instruments, including something that looks like vihuela, lute, gamba, harp, etc. I got some (not very good) pictures, but I've no idea how to upload them to the net. If someone is interested, I could email him/her the pictures Best wishes Eloy Cruz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Charango as vihuela
Dear Bill Thanks a lot for bringing this paper to our attention, it's fascinating, and it is so, not only because of the questions it answers, but those that it suggests. After one first glimpse at the paper, it makes me wonder a bunch of things: The connection between spaniards and incas started right in 16th c. and the spaniards played both vihuela and guitarra. The vihuela stayed alive in spain and in america well in to the 17th c. The guitarra was to be played with fingers and/or probably with a plectrum and/or probably in rasgueado style in 16th cent. The vihuela was played also with the fingers and in earlier times had been played with a plectrum. Was it never played with a plectrum in late 16th cent? Was it never strummed? After the official disappearance of the vihuela, the name remained applied to the guitarra de 5 ordenes and more or less to all other guitars ever since, in the hispanic world. To this day, in America (I mean latin) many names can be given to one single instrument, the best example is, as a friend of mine uses to say: in certain parts of Brasil, one single instrument is called viola if you play choros in it, but if you play Bach's Chacconne in the very same instrument, it's to be called guitarra. Also, both vihuelas and guitarras could have flat or vaulted backs, both could have many different sizes, both could have many different tunings, and a different number of courses So, what is the difference between vihuela and guitarra? I think one answer is given by Covarrubias in his Thesoro (sorry, I can't quote, don't have the book with me): it's a cheap and vulgar instrument, a cowbell, that sadly people use today, instead of the noble vihuela of old... But then Santa Cruz makes his book for biguela hordinaria, which is a guitarra... In other words, the time and place where a writer lives and who he is, are significant in terms of his definition I think the main idea of this paper is the immense complexity of acculturation processes, so I don't think the time is ripe to say that the equation vihuela-charango is right: did all the spaniards who came to the andes called the same to the guitars they had?, they all played them in the same way? Were they aware that a vihuela is a different thing than a guitar? Were the indians aware that vihuela and guitar are different? Sorry, I'm going too long and don't come to my point: I think it's impossible to say that vihuela becomes charango, but it's impossible to deny it. Probably the only thing we can say for sure is that some old guitar or guitars was subject to a very complex number of acculturation processes in a vast territory, during a probably long period of time, and became the modern charango On the other hand, I think charango is a wonderful medium for vihuela music Best wishes Eloy Cruz El 1/17/07 3:10 AM, bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: deja vu ... no? appreciating that i've been asked to move on ... i think you might find the following paper interesting: http://www.sibetrans.com/trans/trans8/baumann.htm the paper deals with cultural impact - one or many to another, or transculturalization as he describes it - and the various ways in which this influence can be assimilated by both recipient and donor cultures. a friend of mine posted it to the yahoo charango list a charango is used for purposes of illustration (16th cent. spanish vihuela confronting indigenous south americans) but the process he describes could be applied to how early european culture - music, in general and hip in particular - is perceived by us today. another friend, who doesn't share my charango as vihuela opinion, suggests the paper proves his point while i, as you might imagine, feel it proves mine rather well ... something in it for everyone - bill ___ All New Yahoo! Mail Tired of unwanted email come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Canarios
Many thanks to Lex, Manolo and Monica This is certainly a complex topic. I agree with Lex and Monica that the rasgueado in both canarios y 3+2 +2+2, starting in anacrusis, hard to play, but when you get into it, gives a wonderful offbeat pattern... The problem is that both in harmony and rhythm there seems to be no connection in between the rasgueado and punteado sections. I'm puzzled by all these rasgueado sections; am I correct if I say that CS4 is the only Spanish baroque guitar book with this rasgueados as intro to the punteado piece? and, are they really intros? Some kind of rasgueado intro to a piece is very common in latinamerican music, and in Colombia and Venezuela is called registro: I know at least one example where the cuatro (the Venezuelan 4-string guitar) makes a strumming registro to the piece, which is played by harp, cuatro and maracas, but the registros are of a very different kind, they don't follow any pattern and sound very much as a little improvisation to prepare the real piece. The rasgueados in CS4 are not like registros, but many times simply repeat the pattern of the piece: in some cases, like Villanos or La Jotta, you can actually play the whole punteado piece to the rasgueado, they are identical. In other cases the rasgueado and puntreado are not identical, like Zarambeques, where some diferencias have a different pattern. This change happens also in some mexican sones, and is called discante, and works exactly like in Zarambeques. Some of the patterns in CS4 are irregular, like that of Cumbees, where the opening strumming can't be used as an accompaniment. But the most irregular piece is the canarios por la A, it's probably the only one that has a different pattern for each diferencia, or no pattern at all. And 6/4 seems to have no rhythmic connections in CS4: only the two canarios and the Paysamos are in 6/4, but punteado canarios por la C and Paysanos are in 6/8 straight, while punteado canarios por la A is 6/8-3/4, very irregular... Yes, Murcia's instructions don't help here. Thanks Manolo for the sesquialter definition, do you mean it's an actual architectural measure o proportion? This proportion in music would be simply 2+1, ie. crotchet-quaver, or something like that, no? By the way, do you know a book about musical proportions in the baroque, I recently was searching for something in this particular topic and found basically nothing... Thanks again and best wishes eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Spanish one-man bands
Dear Stuart and List Doc Rossi is right, the catalog entry he copies is for an instrument with Museum No.: 224-1882, but the note next to the instrument calls it a cittern and has the Spanish virtuosi story. I saw the instrument in december 2002. I think I remember that Monica went to the museum and asked the curator about the instrument, but I don't remember if she actually did it... The only music for cittern in the Hispanic world that I know is the Codice Saldivar 2 in Mexico City and another 18th century manuscript sold at Sotheby's long ago, Monica told me about this ms. Back in 2003 I asked everyone about more music or more surviving Spanish citterns or paintings and I could find nothing... There's of course Minguet. There's a later notice (c. 1840) of someone playing a cittern (citara) in Mexico City Best wishes Eloy Cruz The VA catalogue (1968) entry for this instrument says: 11/9 English guitar. English: late eighteenth century. Fig. 75. No Label visible. Very unusual waisted model in a vaguely Spanish guitar format. Arched back of sycamore. Slightly arched belly of pine with simulated purfling in black ink and an open soundhole. Ivory hitch studs at base of body. Ebony fingerboard with twelve brass frets and four capotasto holes. Pegbox with a pyramid-shaped rectangular finial. Normal English guitar stringing, the last two courses overspun. Dimensions: Length total 69; belly 30; Width of bouts 20, 18, 22. Depth of sides 5.8. String length 32.5 (very short for an English guitar, though of the same order as that of Perry's cither viol, 2/8). Doc Doc Rossi Element Music Le Grand Domaine Boulevard des Dames 26 13002 Marseille France To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Spanish one-man bands
Dear list Eugene, the book you mention is Pablo Minguet y Yrol's Reglas y advertencias generales..., Madrid, 1752-1754. Stuart, thanks for the picture of the instrument. Looks like it has been heavily restored, or perhaps, modified. The bridge could be that of a viola, cello, or something, and the neck, bridge and head look different than the body. The raised fingerboard, looks like that of a modern guitar, and the head, which is the only feature that resembles a cittern, could come from a cittern kit. I wonder if the VA has info about the date when the instrument was restored and who made it. There could be pictures of the instrument before that restoration was made. None of the instruments in Minguet have citternheads, all of them have guitar-like heads. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Canarios
Dear Monica and list. Many years ago (back in 1982!) I played the two sets of canarios in Codice Saldivar 4, and just decided that the strumming pattern in both of them was wrong and simply didn't play it... Now I want to play them again but the strumming patterns are still something I can't understand. I checked Craig Russell's transcription and apparently he did the same as me: he decided that they were wrong and then corrected them. He says that, although the pieces are written in 6/4, the patterns are certainly in 6/4, but for the punteado sections, Murcia switches to 6/8, and Craig, for the sake of consistency, decided to transcribe everything in 6/8, which is a problem. One more problem is that he added some dots to the figures in the strumming section and comes out with a completely different rhythm as the one expressed in tablature, which certainly is closer to the rhythm of the punteado sections... Obviously the pieces were written by Murcia in 6/4, which doesn't mean at all the same thing we understand by 6/4, but tiempo de sesquialtera as Murcia himself explains, but the strumming is not at all in 6/4, even by modern standards: if the strumming sections would have barlines, there would be something like nine 8th notes per bar, while the punteado sections have six 8th notes per bar. I don't really understand Murcia's explanation, what is the meaning of tiempo de sesquialtera? It implies a tempo or a rhythmic pattern or both? Why are the rasgueado and punteado sections so different from one another? The rasgueado is offbeat (what we would call in Spanish atravesado) and the punteado is on the beat (derecho in Spanish) and with an amount of 8th notes per bar different in each one of them. In many pieces in CS4, the strumming sections have the same pattern as the punteado, so much so that you can use the rasgueado as an accompaniment to the punteado, but here it's just impossible. In fact, if you play both sections, it's like you are playing 2 different pieces... Steve Player says that this rasgueado atravesado could imply that there was a form of canario that was atravesado, but I've never seen any example of a canario of this kind. Also, the usual keys for canarios seem to be por la C and por la A, these two keys would imply 2 different forms of canario? Sorry if there are too many questions Best wishes Eloy Cruz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
