[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
- Original Message - From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vihuela list vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco - Original Message - From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vihuela list vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco Stunning as well (to me) is the resemblance of this instrument to the _bowed_ vihuela/viola pictured in S.Virdungs 1511 treatise plate. They are virtually the exact same instrument, and this new plucked image pre-dates Virdungs by 30-35 years! this juxtaposition from the bone-yard is too good to pass up, so have a look http://www.thecipher.com/Valencia_c.1476_Virdung_1511_juxta-deta.jpg and today's booty ties in nicely too. I don't have firm ID on this picture yet. I'm guessing it's a German woodcut, early-mid 1500's, but the instrument shown is referencing and even earlier period-pattern-design (turn of the century). Virdung was also German or low countries. Very nice and informative leaf-shaped peg-box here too (6 string). The upper bouts have those tell-tale contours as well. This thing screams waist-cut vihuela (d'arco). http://www.thecipher.com/viola-vihuela_de_arco_Mvsica_early-mid16th-deta.jpg or http://tinyurl.com/f79ue Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
..and the wife of Jose Miguel Moreno, vihuelista. Doubtless the instrument will receive the Glossa treatment in due course. It will look good on the cover. Rob -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 August 2006 3:39 PM To: Roger E. Blumberg; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'vihuela list' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco LU is a woman. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
.his ex wife. I talked to Jose Miguel Moreno last week about his vihuela and baroque guitar. Both instruments sound very well and are able to penetrate to the back of a hall. He said they were build especially for him by his ex wife. He did not mention her name, but I suppose it is Lourdes Uncilla. Unless he married a luthier again. Alexis Blumberg -Original Message- From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: maandag 28 augustus 2006 15:00 To: 'vihuela list' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco .and the wife of Jose Miguel Moreno, vihuelista. Doubtless the instrument will receive the Glossa treatment in due course. It will look good on the cover. Rob -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 27 August 2006 3:39 PM To: Roger E. Blumberg; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'vihuela list' Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco LU is a woman. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
- Original Message - From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vihuela list vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco Stunning as well (to me) is the resemblance of this instrument to the _bowed_ vihuela/viola pictured in S.Virdungs 1511 treatise plate. They are virtually the exact same instrument, and this new plucked image pre-dates Virdungs by 30-35 years! this juxtaposition from the bone-yard is too good to pass up, so have a look http://www.thecipher.com/Valencia_c.1476_Virdung_1511_juxta-deta.jpg Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 07:50:33 -0400 To: 'vihuela list' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco Roger, I have taken as close a look as I can at the picture of the vihuela. Unfortunately the larger I make the picture in the various graphic programs I use the more broken up the pixels become. However, here are some observations I've made on it. If you look closely at the right side of the rose you see a shadow along that curvature. This indicates an object above the strings. A rose, i.e. something embedded in the body of the instrument, would not cast such a shadow onto the strings. Also, the rose (I still call it a resonator), is very high up the body and close to the neck. This is not the common placement of a rose which would be closer to the hand in the picture (though some early painting show medieval lutes with a small opening near the neck in the shape of a Gothic window as well as the more normal rose below it in the usual place). Also, the hand itself could (I emphasize could) be covering any sound hole, but I doubt it, which leads me to my final conjecture which is; this is a hollow bodied instrument with no sound hole but instead a decorative metal device that acts as a resonator against the strings. I would even suspect that the strings themselves could be metal, though the thickness and transparency could indicate gut. However since these are angels the strings could very well be gold, and since there's lots of gold in all the instruments in this fresco my conjecture that the strings are metal would be borne out. I also notice there appear to be only five single and very thick strings. Ideally I would need to see a very large (high megapixel) detailed photograph of this instrument to be able to tell more. I can not help but maintain that this is not a vihuela in the truest sense, but something else entirely. Unfortunately I don't know of any instrument offhand that would have used a resonator and metal strings, but there's a nagging suspicion in the back of my mind that I have encountered such an instrument if only in a descriptive writing. I just can't recall where I heard of it. Can anyone else recall such an instrument? Do we know the date this fresco was painted? That might help a lot. This is a curious puzzle. Regards, Craig Hi Craig; Well, you're entitled to your interpretations. I'm not sure how you're coming to think _metal_ strings though. I have thought that I've been seeing single strings for quite some time in some other pictures but I haven't made an issue of it -- I have other battles to fight ;'). A resonator placed _against_ the strings would dampen them (defeat). A raised reflector in combination with a sound-hope below might work, but but . . . For an example of the main sound-port-hole placed far forward, see this picture: http://www.TheCipher.com/vihuela-de-mano_de-arco_juxta_CoronationVirginStLar arusMaster1510_deta.jpg (if that link breaks, copy-paste it all) I did also see what looked like shadow on the front edge of the disk/rose. It could even be an actual physical slight relief in that medallion-rose applied to the surface, and the photography lights are from the left (casting shadow). Remember, this is on the ceiling of a Cathedral meant to be viewed from the ground. If taken literally, it might-could be a decorative raised cap-rose of some kind above the sound hole and strings. That would be interesting, but not disqualify it from being called a vihuela/viola, nor would single-stings disqualify it as a vihuela/viola as far as I'm concerned. The date is 1472-1481, well documented (firm), and done by two Italian painters BTW -- it's in the articles I pointed to. In any event, I think we'd all like to see more and better photos. Who-ever is in charge of this project doesn't seem to realize that the rest of world is still largely ignorant of the existence of these musician angels, and they might also not fully appreciate the importance of this particular instrument. Two years has past and still only a small hand-full of people seem to know of it's existence. I'm quite satisfied to call it a vihuela or viola -- and a stunner at that! There is no one true vihuela nor viola -- that should be understood by now, yes? I think you might be getting a little over-analytical. Enjoy the thing, it's cool and beautiful! ;-) I'm certain it was a stunning new design to them too at the time they were painting it -- very distinct from any recent past medieval model, a Corvette to a model-T, racy. Why not call attention to it with that big gold rose against the blue starry-sky back-drop. Maybe it's doubling as the moon (symbolically). Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
Roger wrote: Well, you're entitled to your interpretations. I'm not sure how you're coming to think _metal_ strings though. I have thought that I've been seeing single strings for quite some time in some other pictures but I haven't made an issue of it -- I have other battles to fight ;'). Ok, clearly you're offended by any dissenting discussion here. I thought we were having an interesting and friendly discussion to determine what the instrument in fact was. If I gave offense I apologize. My intent was not to argue but to discuss and thereby learn more. Since you wish to call it a vihuela and to discount any contradiction I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on, though I think your supposition that the rose rises above the sound board is unfounded as such a thing would definitely brush against the strings and, in my opinion, hinder playing. I've never heard of any plucked string instrument (from period, just so we understand that I'm not talking about a modern steel guitar or dobro) with such a raised rose. I'm quite satisfied to call it a vihuela or viola -- and a stunner at that! There is no one true vihuela nor viola -- that should be understood by now, yes? Yes, but calling it a vihuela doesn't make it so. A guitar is not a gittern which is not a bandora which is not a vihuela. I'm satisfied that this instrument is something unique, but not a vihuela in the sense that we understand what a vihuela is (an entirely different discussion from what a vihuela isn't). I think you might be getting a little over-analytical. Enjoy the thing, it's cool and beautiful! ;-) I'm certain it was a stunning new design to them too at the time they were painting it -- very distinct from any recent past medieval model, a Corvette to a model-T, racy. Why not call attention to it with that big gold rose against the blue starry-sky back-drop. Maybe it's doubling as the moon (symbolically). I am not certain of anything with respect to this instrument. That's why I ask questions and make speculations. I'm not as comfortable saying a thing is so if there's some doubt unless I have absolute certainty. My interpretations of the painting based on my experiences as a musician lead me to a different conclusion. So be it. For you it's a vihuela. For me it's a puzzle. I like puzzles, but not so much battles. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:28:36 -0400 To: 'vihuela list' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco Roger wrote: Well, you're entitled to your interpretations. I'm not sure how you're coming to think _metal_ strings though. I have thought that I've been seeing single strings for quite some time in some other pictures but I haven't made an issue of it -- I have other battles to fight ;'). Ok, clearly you're offended by any dissenting discussion here. I thought we were having an interesting and friendly discussion to determine what the instrument in fact was. If I gave offense I apologize. My intent was not to argue but to discuss and thereby learn more. Since you wish to call it a vihuela and to discount any contradiction I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on, though I think your supposition that the rose rises above the sound board is unfounded as such a thing would definitely brush against the strings and, in my opinion, hinder playing. I've never heard of any plucked string instrument (from period, just so we understand that I'm not talking about a modern steel guitar or dobro) with such a raised rose. I'm quite satisfied to call it a vihuela or viola -- and a stunner at that! There is no one true vihuela nor viola -- that should be understood by now, yes? Yes, but calling it a vihuela doesn't make it so. A guitar is not a gittern which is not a bandora which is not a vihuela. I'm satisfied that this instrument is something unique, but not a vihuela in the sense that we understand what a vihuela is (an entirely different discussion from what a vihuela isn't). I think you might be getting a little over-analytical. Enjoy the thing, it's cool and beautiful! ;-) I'm certain it was a stunning new design to them too at the time they were painting it -- very distinct from any recent past medieval model, a Corvette to a model-T, racy. Why not call attention to it with that big gold rose against the blue starry-sky back-drop. Maybe it's doubling as the moon (symbolically). I am not certain of anything with respect to this instrument. That's why I ask questions and make speculations. I'm not as comfortable saying a thing is so if there's some doubt unless I have absolute certainty. My interpretations of the painting based on my experiences as a musician lead me to a different conclusion. So be it. For you it's a vihuela. For me it's a puzzle. I like puzzles, but not so much battles. Regards, Craig Sorry Craig; I didn't mean to upset you. Just before I received this reply I sent off a rider note with the name of a consulting luthier on the project. Peace Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:39:18 -0400 To: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'vihuela list' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco LU is a woman. RT Thanks (and hello) Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
Roger, Is that a plectrum between index and middle finger, or has the plaster fallen off? And do the strings go to the bottom of the instrument (like a cittern)? Looks like there might be a bridge under the players hand. The strings are at a different angle each side of the hand. Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
From: Rob MacKillop [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:19:49 +0100 To: 'vihuela list' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco Roger, Is that a plectrum between index and middle finger, or has the plaster fallen off? And do the strings go to the bottom of the instrument (like a cittern)? Looks like there might be a bridge under the players hand. The strings are at a different angle each side of the hand. Rob Hi Rob; I believe that white ovoid blob is damage (there are similar smaller blobs in the same vicinity). I'm also unsure about the bridge and string terminating hardware (it's still being restored). I'd like to see the peg box too. Looks almost like thick single strings? The body of this instrument is very petite too! Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:04:58 -0700 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'vihuela list' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco Here's all and the best I can find (I'm surprised not to be able to find more, or a larger whole chunk, but very happy for this at least). http://www.lhamdefoc.com/web_castella/castnotifrescos.htm Here's the best two other articles I've found so far. The later, once translated, has lots of specifics. Neither the BBC article, nor most others, even mentioned the fact that musician angels and their instruments were involved/featured/included, in this discovered fresco (minor detail?). I kept looking/searching though, on a very thin hope and prayer that there might be one (only) instrument of some kind depicted, and then only later and accidentally stumbled on the above linked collection of _many_ players and instruments -- imagine my surprise (and joy)! ;-) I was though, intentionally mining Google Images at the time, one more time, specifically for permutations of Valencia and fresco and viol/viola/ when I found this beauty -- knowing that Valencia _is_ early viol icon vein #1. The fretted fiddle in this grouping didn't excite me too much (being more medieval in pattern), but that vihuela sure did! Holy cow! ;-) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/3840659.stm http://www.jdiezarnal.com/exposicionlosfrescosdelacatedral.html Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
- Original Message - From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vihuela list vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco Hi all; Although it's already two years old by now, news of this recently discovered icon is still very exiting to me. In case you haven't seen it yet, here it is . . . . http://www.thecipher.com/vihuela_waist-cut_1472-81_ValenciaCathedral_deta.jp g catch that trailing g in the link or use this http://tinyurl.com/olu4s This fabulous plucked vihuela, with extreme waist-cuts, was just recently discovered (June 22nd 2004 to be exact) contained within a large fresco hidden behind a false ceiling for 300 years in the Cathedral of Valencia. This fresco was commissioned by our friend Rodrigo Borgia long _before_ he became Pope Alexander in 1492 -- making it date from the 1480s at least. [Borgia also gave us the Vatican's Borgia Apts plucked waist-cut vihuela/viola icon of 1493 http://www.thecipher.com/AGB/viola_vihuela_c1493_Vatican.jpg ]. The fresco this image comes from was actually done between 1472 and 1481 (firm) -- which is REALLY early for _any_ kind of vihuela iconography by my reckoning. Stunning as well (to me) is the resemblance of this instrument to the _bowed_ vihuela/viola pictured in S.Virdungs 1511 treatise plate. They are virtually the exact same instrument, and this new plucked image pre-dates Virdungs by 30-35 years! http://www.thecipher.com/LuteViolGuitarFamily_SVirdung_1511_det.jpg It's safe to say that this new Valencia Cathedral vihuela is 15 years earlier than the Borgia apts instrument, let's say c.1476. Aside from the Salamonca waist-cut plucked Viola, being supposedly late 1300's, do any of you know of an earlier and as firmly dated image of a plucked vihuela of _any_ kind (let alone waist-cut) in iconography prior to this new image? Also, if anyone of you are in the neighborhood of Valencia, a full and complete image of this instrument would be wonderful to see -- this small detail is the best I've been able to find so far. thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco
- Original Message - From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vihuela list vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco - Original Message - From: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vihuela list vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Icon alert -- vihuela in newly-recovered Valencia Cathedral fresco Hi all; Although it's already two years old by now, news of this recently discovered icon is still very exiting to me. In case you haven't seen it yet, here it is . . . . http://www.thecipher.com/vihuela_waist-cut_1472-81_ValenciaCathedral_deta.jp g catch that trailing g in the link or use this http://tinyurl.com/olu4s very sorry, wrong picture, this is the one http://tinyurl.com/qumhc Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
