[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
The first book with campanelas (Bartolotti) is from 1640. Actually the first person to have a go is Foscarini. The Passacaglio variato on p.100 in scordatura has two short passages on the 4th line. The second group is a straightforward little scale passage. The first group I suspect he has partly notated incorrectly. M Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
The first book with campanelas (Bartolotti) is from 1640. Actually the first person to have a go is Foscarini. The Passacaglio variato on p.100 in scordatura has two short passages on the 4th line. The second group is a straightforward little scale passage. The first group I suspect he has partly notated incorrectly. Yes indeed. I have even recorded it. These campanelas are different from Bartolotti's (or Sanz's) as there are no not es on the fourth or fifth course included. Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
In the first group of notes there are two stopped notes on the 4th course - at the 7th fret and the 4th fret. The last four notes of the group are b a g f#. It's not one of the pieces on your CD. There is also a short passage in the passo e mezzo on p. 102 on the first line on the upper course only. Shades of things to come. M - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 8:42 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? The first book with campanelas (Bartolotti) is from 1640. Actually the first person to have a go is Foscarini. The Passacaglio variato on p.100 in scordatura has two short passages on the 4th line. The second group is a straightforward little scale passage. The first group I suspect he has partly notated incorrectly. Yes indeed. I have even recorded it. These campanelas are different from Bartolotti's (or Sanz's) as there are no not es on the fourth or fifth course included. Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Who says I tune my guitar(s) at A440? I used this pitch in my analysis simply as a convenient reference point. But I don't think anybody would argue that a major third below A440 is an ideal historical pitch for guitars. MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:50 Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __ De : Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot [3]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot [5]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot [6]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos [8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __ De : Martyn Hodgson [10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos [11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist [12]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Strad (or his sons?) did indeed leave notes which indicate the position of the octave and bourdon as you describe. And other evidence. But to your central question - it's very much chicken and egg: - did the octave on the basses (used like on the lute to brighten a muddy bass) give birth later to the idea of using them in campanella play; or - was campanella play around before the basses had a low octave and later a little more depth to the bass register was thought desirable? I firmly stand in the first camp since I see little evidence of campanellas in the slightly early 4 course guitar/gittern repertory and the earliest 5 course music is simply strummed chords. MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: vihuela list vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 22:47 On 23/11/2010 22:08, Alexander Batov wrote: I quite agree with Martyn that the use of an octave on the third course is a bit of an overkill with all-gut stringing, whatever SL is there. And lets not forget that the main purpose of octave stringing in olden times was to enhance the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings But - as usual - the Baroque guitar seems to be different from other plucked instruments of the time in that the low string and the octave above it are positioned in reverse from the norm. On lutes (etc) , on the lower courses with octaves, the thumb hits the low note first (presumably with gut, a bit of dull sound) and then the octave above which gives the overall bass sound more focus. But - probably universally today - Baroque guitarists set up guitars so that when the thumb hits the low course(s) the high octave sounds first and then the thumb hits the bass. I think the actual evidence from the time is minute - something in Stradivarius and ? at most a couple of other things? (Plus something much later? Merchi? - when the bass notes are unambiguously bass notes anyway) Of course, every one is setting up their guitars in this way to get campanellas and to try and make more sense of the music. But that's quite different from merely enhancing the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings. Stuart , which would be hardly necessary on under 1.0 mm thick third course. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
I only says that a minor third below 440 is the tuning indicated by Carbonchi (GCFAD), at a pitch of a=415. On instruments with a diapason of 69 cm (as Sellas...), it equals my stringing which is a tone higher (ADGHE) with a 63 cm SL.There is no impossibilty to use a g octave,(or f octave on a greater instrument), it works quite well on mine. But I also quite understand Monica's general point of view: perhaps it sounds good for my today's ears, but what about 1650 ears? And allways no real evidence of the use of g octave in the texts, as she already pointed out. __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mer 24 novembre 2010, 10h 04min 05s Objet : Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Who says I tune my guitar(s) at A440? I used this pitch in my analysis simply as a convenient reference point. But I don't think anybody would argue that a major third below A440 is an ideal historical pitch for guitars. MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:50 Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __ De : Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot [3]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot [5]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot [6]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos [8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
I think the actual evidence from the time is minute - something in Stradivarius and ? at most a couple of other things? (Plus something much later? Merchi? - when the bass notes are unambiguously bass notes anyway). Rather surprisingly the one 17th century mention of this practice is in Ruiz de Ribayaz's Luz y norte musical. It is also illustrated in the article by Rousseau in Diderot's encyclopedia. But I think it may have been common on the cittern as well. The instrument in Saldivar Codex 2 has the low octave string on the third course placed between the two treble strings. On the guitar it is not just a question of campanellas. The 5th course is used quite a lot as a treble string in the part writing and whether or not bourdons are used I think it is necessary to have it on the thumb side of the course. Monica Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Thanks for clarifying that! I understand what you mean now. Monica - Original Message - From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? I only says that a minor third below 440 is the tuning indicated by Carbonchi (GCFAD), at a pitch of a=415. On instruments with a diapason of 69 cm (as Sellas...), it equals my stringing which is a tone higher (ADGHE) with a 63 cm SL.There is no impossibilty to use a g octave,(or f octave on a greater instrument), it works quite well on mine. But I also quite understand Monica's general point of view: perhaps it sounds good for my today's ears, but what about 1650 ears? And allways no real evidence of the use of g octave in the texts, as she already pointed out. __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mer 24 novembre 2010, 10h 04min 05s Objet : Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Who says I tune my guitar(s) at A440? I used this pitch in my analysis simply as a convenient reference point. But I don't think anybody would argue that a major third below A440 is an ideal historical pitch for guitars. MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:50 Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __ De : Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot [3]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot [5]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot [6]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos [8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 24/11/2010 12:54, Monica Hall wrote: Rather surprisingly the one 17th century mention of this practice [having the low note on the thumb side] is in Ruiz de Ribayaz's Luz y norte musical. It's astonishing really. Hundreds of guitar publications and MSS in the seventeenth century and just one mention of it. and yet everyone today uses this method of stringing with bourdons. The actual evidence is so slight. It is also illustrated in the article by Rousseau in Diderot's encyclopedia. So that would be after 1750 anyway and a quite different world. So is that all: Stradivarius in some notes (early 18th C?), Ribayez, 17th C and Rousseau, late 18th century? But I think it may have been common on the cittern as well. The instrument in Saldivar Codex 2 has the low octave string on the third course placed between the two treble strings. The cittern is a very different instrument and a fairly minor instrument at this time. There is no comparable repertoire to the guitar. In fact, not much of a repertoire at all. Stuart On the guitar it is not just a question of campanellas. The 5th course is used quite a lot as a treble string in the part writing and whether or not bourdons are used I think it is necessary to have it on the thumb side of the course. Monica Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
It's astonishing really. Hundreds of guitar publications and MSS in the seventeenth century and just one mention of it. and yet everyone today uses this method of stringing with bourdons. The actual evidence is so slight. One possible reason why it is seldom mentioned is because the commonest methods of stringing were the re-entrant tuning where there is no need to reverse the strings, and that with a bourdon on the 4th course only where it doesn't make much difference. It is also illustrated in the article by Rousseau in Diderot's encyclopedia. So that would be after 1750 anyway and a quite different world. That is the point. There isn't really any need to reverse the strings for the later repertoire which suggests that it was something left over from the past. But Corrette does mention the practice of leaving out the low octave string and has a specific way of notating it. This may be because a bourdon on the 5th course was by this time standard - hence the need to leave it out. There is not much point in doing what he says in the places where he indicates it as you can just as well play the notes on the appropriate upper course although it is slightly easier to do it in the way he suggests. So is that all: Stradivarius in some notes (early 18th C?), Ribayez, 17th C and Rousseau, late 18th century? And Merchi I think. The cittern is a very different instrument and a fairly minor instrument at this time. There is no comparable repertoire to the guitar. In fact, not much of a repertoire at all. But every barber's shop had one. Monica On the guitar it is not just a question of campanellas. The 5th course is used quite a lot as a treble string in the part writing and whether or not bourdons are used I think it is necessary to have it on the thumb side of the course. Monica Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd course is intended. Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It works after a fashion but it is not the best track. I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all his music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All he really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works best for which type of music. I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string in measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the notated theme): 5 19 23 25 (Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading is very similar) In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the lower G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can play that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's written. There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and many others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the lower octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis makes those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these cited cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear it. So far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books. But it really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it. Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of and possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced -- Anyway, that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really doesn't help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the guitar. Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome! Cheers cud __ From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Which fugue is it? Monica - Original Message
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
I'm also skeptical of an octave G, if for no other reason than the fact that Sanz simply doesn't mention it. He takes pains to say that if you want to sound like the fashionable players of the time, then you should use such-and-such a stringing. He never mentions, And if you *really* want to sound good, use an octave on the G or anything of the kind. In fact, I'm not aware of anybody mentioning an octave on the G (please correct me if I'm wrong). On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with taking discrete liberties with the written score, and playing the higher G when it feels necessary. I think statistically speaking, if you put the burden (no pun intended) on the G course, rather that bordones on the D and/or A, you will find fewer cases where you wish for an octave other than the one the strings sound -- with Sanz at least. (Can I get an honorary degree if I prove that point?) And further, if you strike the strings equally with your thumb, I think all agree (except perhaps Lex) that the lower octave will dominate the sensation of what you hear... biology of the ear, more mass in the bordon producing more pressure in the air. So I personally don't believe adding a bordon to the G is worth the cost of fine-tuning my technique so I can choose which octave I want to emphasize. Technically, it's easier to grab the higher-octave G on a different string when I can't live without it. That said, it's curious to find passages in Sanz that could easily be played with the G', yet are written for the lower octave. I think that's a clue to how differently music was heard at the time. Take measure 2 of the second line in Passacalles sobre la D con muchas Diferencias. Why is that G a lower octave? Bordones on the D string clearly don't solve anything there. There's no problem either playing the G' on the E string, or arranging a campanela that's identical to the campanela in the 4th to the last measire of the piece. Given the velocity of the passage, either alternative is well within technical reach. But that's not his choice. Interesting stuff... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 5:15:03 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd course is intended. Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It works after a fashion but it is not the best track. I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all his music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All he really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works best for which type of music. I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall [1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [2][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3][7]vihu
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __ De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk A : Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc : Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Well, this is not quite correct. The original string length of surviving guitars by Rene / Alexandre / Jean Voboam would be somewhere between 69 - 71 cm. Most of them were converted to shorter string lengths (sometime between 1730 - early 19th century) by shortening of the neck and / or moving the bridge towards the sound hole or both. There are a few surviving French guitars, shortly preceding the Voboam's generation (Dumesnil for example), with 66 - 67cm SL but certainly not less than that. The sting length of most surviving Italian-made guitars in the period between 1630 - 1670 is even longer, at c. 71 - 73 cm. Again, there is a shorter SL category here too (64 - 66 cm), to which, as it seems, both the Koch (currently 64cm) and Tessler guitars belong (Tesler certainly had its neck being shortened, Koch very likely too). SL seems to begin to drop from early 18th century on (when it hardly exceeds 64 - 65 cm), quite possibly because of the increasing use of wound strings. I quite agree with Martyn that the use of an octave on the third course is a bit of an overkill with all-gut stringing, whatever SL is there. And lets not forget that the main purpose of octave stringing in olden times was to enhance the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings, which would be hardly necessary on under 1.0 mm thick third course. Alexander On 23/11/2010 14:04, jean-michel Catherinot wrote: 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) .. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 23/11/2010 22:08, Alexander Batov wrote: I quite agree with Martyn that the use of an octave on the third course is a bit of an overkill with all-gut stringing, whatever SL is there. And lets not forget that the main purpose of octave stringing in olden times was to enhance the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings But - as usual - the Baroque guitar seems to be different from other plucked instruments of the time in that the low string and the octave above it are positioned in reverse from the norm. On lutes (etc) , on the lower courses with octaves, the thumb hits the low note first (presumably with gut, a bit of dull sound) and then the octave above which gives the overall bass sound more focus. But - probably universally today - Baroque guitarists set up guitars so that when the thumb hits the low course(s) the high octave sounds first and then the thumb hits the bass. I think the actual evidence from the time is minute - something in Stradivarius and ? at most a couple of other things? (Plus something much later? Merchi? - when the bass notes are unambiguously bass notes anyway) Of course, every one is setting up their guitars in this way to get campanellas and to try and make more sense of the music. But that's quite different from merely enhancing the sound of dull-sounding thick gut strings. Stuart , which would be hardly necessary on under 1.0 mm thick third course. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
But - as usual - the Baroque guitar seems to be different from other plucked instruments of the time in that the low string and the octave above it are positioned in reverse from the norm. On lutes (etc) , on the lower courses with octaves, the thumb hits the low note first (presumably with gut, a bit of dull sound) and then the octave above which gives the overall bass sound more focus. But - probably universally today - Baroque guitarists set up guitars so that when the thumb hits the low course(s) the high octave sounds first and then the thumb hits the bass. It could well be that in the time of Amat, Monesardo, Sanseverino, and, who knows, Foscarini, the same setup as we know it from the lute was used. First the low and then the octave string. The first book with campanelas (Bartolotti) is from 1640. Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one darned fugue! cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Which fugue is it? Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one darned fugue! cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string in measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the notated theme): 5 19 23 25 (Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading is very similar) In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the lower G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can play that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's written. There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and many others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the lower octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis makes those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these cited cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear it. So far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books. But it really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it. Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of and possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced -- Anyway, that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really doesn't help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the guitar. Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome! Cheers cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Which fugue is it? Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: wikla [2]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one darned fugue! cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: wikla [5]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 5. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 6. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd course is intended. Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It works after a fashion but it is not the best track. I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all his music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All he really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works best for which type of music. I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string in measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the notated theme): 5 19 23 25 (Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading is very similar) In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the lower G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can play that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's written. There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and many others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the lower octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis makes those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these cited cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear it. So far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books. But it really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it. Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of and possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced -- Anyway, that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really doesn't help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the guitar. Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome! Cheers cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Which fugue is it? Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: wikla [5]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one darned fugue! cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: wikla [8]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [11]http
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd course is intended. Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It works after a fashion but it is not the best track. I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all his music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All he really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works best for which type of music. I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string in measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the notated theme): 5 19 23 25 (Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading is very similar) In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the lower G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can play that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's written. There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and many others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the lower octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis makes those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these cited cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear it. So far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books. But it really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it. Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of and possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced -- Anyway, that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really doesn't help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the guitar. Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome! Cheers cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Which fugue is it? Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: wikla [5]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one darned fugue! cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: wikla [8]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Whoops . De Visee used Corbetta's 'French' tuning ie bourdon on the 4th only. I suspect other contemorary French players did also (eg Carre, De la Grange, Grenerin). If there is any hard evidence for each source I'm sure Monica will be able to tell us definitively. M. --- On Sun, 21/11/10, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 7:52 --- On Sat, 20/11/10, Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: wikla [3]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 22:29 Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 2. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 4. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
On 21/11/2010 09:45, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Even Carre has mentioned the 4th course bourdon, halfway his book. Some have taken this as an indication that he wanted French tuning for accompani ment (compare Sanz). We can't be sure. I only know the first publication of Carré. At the end of the solos there is a tuning chart in staff notation (and Monica thinks that this is lifted from Mersenne). The notes (on a treble clef with a b flat, for some reason) and all within one octave are: g,c,f,a,d. So it would seem that this is for a guitar with top string d'. Then there are continuo exercises with an instruction under the first exercise to put on octave on the fourth. But (as Monica notes in her introduction) the tuning is now for a guitar with top string e'. So already there are puzzles! Why would he want a guitar at d' for the solos and and e' for accompaniments. Was the g,c,f,a,d tuning just lifted from Mersenne? Anyway, twenty seven pages of solos ends with fully re-entrant tuning chart. And the continuo exercises clearly has an instruction to put an octave on the the fourthwhich presumably means, put on a low octave. (And, no mention at all of the which way around to put the high and low octave). In her intro to the LGV edition of Carré, Monica notes concordances with Corbetta, Bartolotti and Sanz. (Interesting) and a German MS from c.1673 You forgot Briceno... I would add the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris, from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more. He has given the re-entrant tuning in staff. In one of the Castillion manuscripts in Brussels there are some pieces of Lelio Colista, who Sanz has mentioned as a master in Rome. Presumably re-entrant tuning. Lex -- So - is this the list so far - of music that is acknowledged in the text itself as fully re-entrant? 1) Briceño 2) Carré 3) Valdambrini 4) (all/most/some?) Sanz 5) the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris, from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more And more speculatively, 1) Lelio Colista Of course, players in those times might have ignored these instructions and the whole situation could have been very fluid,varying from place to place and time to time. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Here we go again. The only person who unequivocally states that his music is for the fully re-entrant tuning is Valdambrini. (And very few people unequivocally state that their music is for any other specific tuning). I don't thank that Murcia's Resumen or Matteis is intended for the fully re-entrant tuning. They don't include any information about this. To the list of references I would add Brossard's dictionary whose definition is as follows. A kind of instrument with five courses of strings where the lowest is in the middle unless there is a bourdon an octave lower than the fourth. Monica So - is this the list so far - of music that is acknowledged in the text itself as fully re-entrant? 1) Briceño 2) Carré 3) Valdambrini 4) (all/most/some?) Sanz 5) the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris, from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more And more speculatively, (I've just remembered Tyler's tutor. His first section is for fully re-entrant guitar and he includes music from Lady Elizabeth Cromwell's guitar book, Sanz, Matteis and Murcia (1714) but, apart from the Sanz, these are probably much more controversial.) 1) Lelio Colista 2) Lady Elizabeth Cromwell's guitar book 3) Matteis (pieces that open False Consonsances ) 4) Murcia (Resumen) Of course, players in those times might have ignored these instructions and the whole situation could have been very fluid,varying from place to place and time to time. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Dear Stewart,
I think Carre is very doubtful as being fully re-entrant for reasons
given earlier; in short, tunings probably lifted from Mersenne and
possibly garbled. All French guitarists of this period were clearly
heavily influenced by Corbetta (cf. his 'developed' French style as
well as concordant sources) who advocated a bourdon on the 4th at this
time. It's therefore prudent to assume Carre used the same ('French')
tuning unless you've got firm evidence to the contrary...
Monica's monograph 'Baroque Guitar stringing' (Lute Soc 2003) is pretty
authorative; no doubt she will let us know her views in due
course. One thing she mentions on page 17 is Sanz's (well known)
report about the practice of fully re-entrant amongst the best masters
in Rome (especially listing Colista) but suggests such tuning might
have been used elsewhere in Italy. Looking at a few published books
it's hard to come down clearly either way on the basis of internal
evidence.
A couple caught my attention which I've not seen mentioned (I think):
- Carbonchi's interesting 1643 collection has mostly alfabeto pieces in
the Italian collection and I suggest could be played equally with or
without bourdons. The french tablature pieces seem of two main types
and with which we are familiar: strummed chords interspersed with
melodic passages and treble and 'bass' settings but it looks to me
after a quick strum on two guitars (one fully re-entrant, one bourdons
on both) that with or without works equally well. I be grateful for
views on this source.
- Calvi's 1646 collection which also contains alfabeto pieces and
intabulated dances which, like the Carbonchi, I suggest are equally
acceptable with or without bourdons. It has the usual sort of tuning
chart but what might look like octave indications is I guess only a
check for unisons or octaves ('Prova').
I'm sure Monica will have written on both these but, off-hand, I can't
anything - sorry!
Martyn
--- On Sun, 21/11/10, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by all?
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 11:11
So - is this the list so far - of music that is acknowledged in the
text itself as fully re-entrant?
1) Briceno
2) Carre
3) Valdambrini
4) (all/most/some?) Sanz
5)
the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris,
from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more
And more speculatively,
(I've just remembered Tyler's tutor. His first section is for fully
re-entrant guitar and he includes music from Lady Elizabeth Cromwell's
guitar book, Sanz, Matteis and Murcia (1714) but, apart from the Sanz,
these are probably much more controversial.)
1) Lelio Colista
2) Lady Elizabeth Cromwell's guitar book
3) Matteis (pieces that open False Consonsances )
4) Murcia (Resumen)
Of course, players in those times might have ignored these
instructions and the whole situation could have been very
fluid,varying from place to place and time to time.
Stuart
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Well here for the record are my views on these two.
Carbonchi explicitly says he has published his book in French tablature to
make it accessible to foreign players. Read into that what you like.
and wait for it
Calvi's book is partly a plagiarised version of Corbetta's 1639 book. The
alfabeto pieces are abbreviated versions of Corbetta's alfabeto pieces.
I did in the booklet venture to suggest that Corbetta may have started out
in life as a re-entrant tuner.
The only other one we haven't mentioned to date is Costanza. His tuning
instructions if taken literally imply a re-entrant tuning.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:40 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by
all?
Dear Stewart,
I think Carre is very doubtful as being fully re-entrant for reasons
given earlier; in short, tunings probably lifted from Mersenne and
possibly garbled. All French guitarists of this period were clearly
heavily influenced by Corbetta (cf. his 'developed' French style as
well as concordant sources) who advocated a bourdon on the 4th at this
time. It's therefore prudent to assume Carre used the same ('French')
tuning unless you've got firm evidence to the contrary...
Monica's monograph 'Baroque Guitar stringing' (Lute Soc 2003) is pretty
authorative; no doubt she will let us know her views in due
course. One thing she mentions on page 17 is Sanz's (well known)
report about the practice of fully re-entrant amongst the best masters
in Rome (especially listing Colista) but suggests such tuning might
have been used elsewhere in Italy. Looking at a few published books
it's hard to come down clearly either way on the basis of internal
evidence.
A couple caught my attention which I've not seen mentioned (I think):
- Carbonchi's interesting 1643 collection has mostly alfabeto pieces in
the Italian collection and I suggest could be played equally with or
without bourdons. The french tablature pieces seem of two main types
and with which we are familiar: strummed chords interspersed with
melodic passages and treble and 'bass' settings but it looks to me
after a quick strum on two guitars (one fully re-entrant, one bourdons
on both) that with or without works equally well. I be grateful for
views on this source.
- Calvi's 1646 collection which also contains alfabeto pieces and
intabulated dances which, like the Carbonchi, I suggest are equally
acceptable with or without bourdons. It has the usual sort of tuning
chart but what might look like octave indications is I guess only a
check for unisons or octaves ('Prova').
I'm sure Monica will have written on both these but, off-hand, I can't
anything - sorry!
Martyn
--- On Sun, 21/11/10, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant
accepted by all?
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 21 November, 2010, 11:11
So - is this the list so far - of music that is acknowledged in the
text itself as fully re-entrant?
1) Briceno
2) Carre
3) Valdambrini
4) (all/most/some?) Sanz
5)
the manuscripts of Monsieur Dupille, commissaire de guerre in Paris,
from c.1649: F-Pg MS 2344, and two more
And more speculatively,
(I've just remembered Tyler's tutor. His first section is for fully
re-entrant guitar and he includes music from Lady Elizabeth Cromwell's
guitar book, Sanz, Matteis and Murcia (1714) but, apart from the Sanz,
these are probably much more controversial.)
1) Lelio Colista
2) Lady Elizabeth Cromwell's guitar book
3) Matteis (pieces that open False Consonsances )
4) Murcia (Resumen)
Of course, players in those times might have ignored these
instructions and the whole situation could have been very
fluid,varying from place to place and time to time.
Stuart
To get on or off this list see list information at
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[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Thanks to everyone for introducing b-guitar to a theorbist! While thinking of b-guitar I had to tube some strumming on b-lute, a Sarabande by Mercure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTZKpXIx1Dg Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Lovely Arto. Nice to know that lutenists do it too. Monica - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:21 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Thanks to everyone for introducing b-guitar to a theorbist! While thinking of b-guitar I had to tube some strumming on b-lute, a Sarabande by Mercure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTZKpXIx1Dg Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carré some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all?
--- On Sat, 20/11/10, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 20 November, 2010, 22:29 Dear flat-back lutenists, is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without any modern disagreement definitely used the double re-entrant tuning - the 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not actually specified. I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: Valdambrini Carre some (?) Sanz and? Stuart To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting sounds really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard strings sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in b-guitar in e from g to e'. In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
