[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Stuart, Regarding wether the CA basses were doubled at the octave, the 1651 illustration of Granata's CA shows pegs for 5 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single (relatively short as compared with a theorbo) basses. In short, the instrument was strung like a theorbo and contemporary archlute with single basses. As you'll know from earlier in this thread, there is at least as strong a case for the basses to be at the upper octave and in this case no octave doubling would be present anyway. Martyn On Sun, 30/8/09, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Roman Turovsky lu...@polyhymnion.org Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 30 August, 2009, 4:55 PM Roman Turovsky wrote: There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar.. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means [1]http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT This image reminded me of something in Baines' Musical Instruments. There _is_ an instrument in the VA (according to Baines) that has the attachment that is shown in Roman's jpg. Perhaps it is the same instrument. But it is much, much later... 1789-92, Rafael Vellejo (VA; 389-1871): six double courses and a board attached with 20 pegs with 10 double courses of metal strings. Stuart --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00 To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
It is not the open basses which are doubled. But obviously (if anything is obvious) the courses on the fingerboard would be double. What we don't know for sure is whether the 4th and 5th were octave strung or in unison. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Stuart Walsh Cc: [3]Monica Hall ; [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Stuart, Regarding wether the CA basses were doubled at the octave, the 1651 illustration of Granata's CA shows pegs for 5 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single (relatively short as compared with a theorbo) basses. In short, the instrument was strung like a theorbo and contemporary archlute with single basses. As you'll know from earlier in this thread, there is at least as strong a case for the basses to be at the upper octave and in this case no octave doubling would be present anyway. Martyn On Sun, 30/8/09, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Roman Turovsky lu...@polyhymnion.org Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 30 August, 2009, 4:55 PM Roman Turovsky wrote: There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar.. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means [5]http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT This image reminded me of something in Baines' Musical Instruments. There _is_ an instrument in the VA (according to Baines) that has the attachment that is shown in Roman's jpg. Perhaps it is the same instrument. But it is much, much later... 1789-92, Rafael Vellejo (VA; 389-1871): six double courses and a board attached with 20 pegs with 10 double courses of metal strings. Stuart --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00 To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Oh - well - it is a bank holiday!We should be out enjoying the sun while it lasts. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Ah - I was fooled by Stuart saying octave stringing on the lower courses - which I took as meaning the basses. M --- On Mon, 31/8/09, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 31 August, 2009, 4:24 PM It is not the open basses which are doubled. But obviously (if anything is obvious) the courses on the fingerboard would be double. What we don't know for sure is whether the 4th and 5th were octave strung or in unison. Monica - Original Message - From: [8]Martyn Hodgson To: [9]Stuart Walsh Cc: [10]Monica Hall ; [11]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Stuart, Regarding wether the CA basses were doubled at the octave, the 1651 illustration of Granata's CA shows pegs for 5 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single (relatively short as compared with a theorbo) basses. In short, the instrument was strung like a theorbo and contemporary archlute with single basses. As you'll know from earlier in this thread, there is at least as strong a case for the basses to be at the upper octave and in this case no octave doubling would be present anyway. Martyn On Sun, 30/8/09, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Roman Turovsky lu...@polyhymnion.org Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 30 August, 2009, 4:55 PM Roman Turovsky wrote: There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar... James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means [12]http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT This image reminded me of something in Baines' Musical Instruments. There _is_ an instrument in the VA (according to Baines) that has the attachment that is shown in Roman's jpg. Perhaps it is the same instrument. But it is much, much later... 1789-92, Rafael Vellejo (VA; 389-1871): six double courses and a board attached with 20 pegs with 10 double courses of metal strings. Stuart --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00 To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Monica Hall wrote: Granata has not clearly indicated in any of his books that he favoured one method of stringing the 5-course guitar over another. It is therefore an open question. I see - I understand what you are saying. There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower octave (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that struck first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so that with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would make perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an ambiguous aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper octave. I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a continuo bass lines as for a theorbo or similar. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and rather dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap. I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page. I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering Rob to swop the files. No excuse really but at one point I was considering whether the 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant. In the opening bars of the preludio there will be a drop of a 7th at the switch over from bass strings to 5th course if this has a low octave string. I must get the correct version sorted.. Monica - Original Message - From: [2]Martyn Hodgson To: [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous communications) thus perpetuating a the myth. Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly accurate. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [5]Martyn Hodgson To: [6]Vihuelalist ; [7]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music and for this reason I am inclined to be cautious. We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the instrument were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but not the 5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this from the music. Each method of stringing creates problems. Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a player and an arranger of music for the instrument. One thing that I would query. If the basses are high they overlap completely with the courses on the fingerboard. Surely this would mean that they didn't need to be any longer than the stopped courses? Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not capable of doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower octave (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that struck first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so that with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would make perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an ambiguous aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper octave. I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a continuo bass lines as for a theorbo or similar. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and rather dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap. I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page. I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering Rob to swop the files. No excuse really but at one point I was considering whether the 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant. In the opening bars of the preludio there will be a drop of a 7th at the switch over from bass strings to 5th course if this has a low octave string. I must get the correct version sorted.. Monica - Original Message - From: [2]Martyn Hodgson To: [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous communications) thus perpetuating a the myth. Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly accurate. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [5]Martyn Hodgson To: [6]Vihuelalist ; [7]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave (like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was (like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) - Granata exploits this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113. I think the thought that since all the notes are available on an ordinary 5 course guitar (provided of course the 5th course has at least one lower octave string) then why have another instrument is similar to suggesting that since all the notes of an 11 course 'baroque' lute in, say, the Dm tuning can be played on a 10 course lute in the old tuning, why bother having such an instrument? It is, of course, to do with different sonorities and other playing possibilities. Many similar examples are possible... As I've said before Monica, to be quite frank I simply don't know, but I do think there's at least as good a case for high basses as low in Granata's music for this instrument even without considering the sort of sound from a gut low ,A of short string length and I think we need to face such choices. From what you say I think this is largely your position as well Martyn --- On Sat, 29/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 29 August, 2009, 12:19 PM Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music and for this reason I am inclined to be cautious. We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the instrument were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but not the 5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this from the music. Each method of stringing creates problems. Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a player and an arranger of music for the instrument. One thing that I would query. If the basses are high they overlap completely with the courses on the fingerboard. Surely this would mean that they didn't need to be any longer than the stopped courses? Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not capable of doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co..uk Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower octave (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that struck first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so that with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would make perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an ambiguous aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper octave. I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a continuo bass lines as for a theorbo or similar. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and rather dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap. I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page. I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering Rob to swop
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Well - I would like to agree with you wholeheartedly. The reason why I have been pursuing this is because there is this simplistic argument - first put forward by Gary Boye and seized on with alacrity by at least one other person - that because Granata has included these pieces for an instrument which they believe had an extended bass range Granata intended all his guitar music to be played with octave stringing on both the fourth and fifth courses. At one point one point one person seemed about to claim that because the Gallot ms. includes music for guitarre theorbe all the music in that source was intended for double octave stringing too. To me this is totally illogical - and I think that Gary has had second thoughts himself on this. However these instruments were strung they are different instruments and have nothing whatever to do with the 5-course guitar. This is the point which I am most anxious to make. Unfortunately, because ideas like this appear in books supposedly of scholarly status everyone repeats them parrot fashion. The same is true of Bartolotti and his lettere tagliate. It is as if the Pope had spoken ex-cathedra. Having said that I am cautious (I hope) about suggesting that Granata's instrument is just some weirdo instrument of his own because I don't want to be accused of putting forward counter arguments which aren't well supported. In suggesting that Granata's instrument was tuned to a higher pitch than the 5-course I hoped I had achieved a procrustean balence. But perhaps not. Moica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:00 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave (like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was (like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) - Granata exploits this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113. I think the thought that since all the notes are available on an ordinary 5 course guitar (provided of course the 5th course has at least one lower octave string) then why have another instrument is similar to suggesting that since all the notes of an 11 course 'baroque' lute in, say, the Dm tuning can be played on a 10 course lute in the old tuning, why bother having such an instrument? It is, of course, to do with different sonorities and other playing possibilities. Many similar examples are possible... As I've said before Monica, to be quite frank I simply don't know, but I do think there's at least as good a case for high basses as low in Granata's music for this instrument even without considering the sort of sound from a gut low ,A of short string length and I think we need to face such choices. From what you say I think this is largely your position as well Martyn --- On Sat, 29/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 29 August, 2009, 12:19 PM Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music and for this reason I am inclined to be cautious. We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the instrument were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but not the 5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this from the music. Each method of stringing creates problems. Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a player and an arranger of music for the instrument. One thing that I would query. If the basses are high they overlap completely with the courses on the fingerboard. Surely this would mean that they didn't need to be any longer than the stopped courses? Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not capable of doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co..uk Cc
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at the low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather than taking the important evidence at its face value. Martyn --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- References 1. [1]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at the low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather than taking the important evidence at its face value. Martyn --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- References 1. [4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous communications) thus perpetuating a the myth. Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly accurate. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at the low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather than taking the important evidence at its face value. Martyn --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- References 1. [4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and rather dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap. I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page. I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering Rob to swop the files. No excuse really but at one point I was considering whether the 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant. In the opening bars of the preludio there will be a drop of a 7th at the switch over from bass strings to 5th course if this has a low octave string. I must get the correct version sorted. Monica - Original Message - From: [2]Martyn Hodgson To: [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous communications) thus perpetuating a the myth. Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly accurate. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [5]Martyn Hodgson To: [6]Vihuelalist ; [7]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at the low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather than taking the important evidence at its face value. Martyn --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- References 1. [8]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3. mailto:mjlh
