Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline
I have wondered why every few years I'd smell gas in my garage and get under my 72 Bug and find one or more of the rubber fuel lines coming out of the tank or going to the fuel pump were cracking and gas was leaking. We only have access to E10 here in Alabama. I have tried without success to find a station that sells regular octane in 100% gasoline but no luck so I guess I'm committed to changing out rubber lines every couple of years. Mike in AL On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Mike mbucch...@charter.net wrote: Ethanol content in our gas eliminates the need for DryGas. Not a bad thing entirely. Hygroscopic means that it attracts/absorbs water. If there's water in your gas tank (whether from the gas-pumps or from highly humid air condensing in the airspace above a less-than-full tank). It allows the contaminant to burn in the engine along with the gas. This reduces octane as well as the combustion temps as the water cools the mixture. We're all E10 here in New England; gasohol from the 70's, right? They water down our gas and then charge us more for the privilege! What a deal (for them)! So, now it's just a natural course of events to make the move to 15%, and higher! Shorter engine life means we buy cars more often to replace the worn-out, too-expensive-to-repair ones we own now. Yes, this stuff eats fuel lines. My 4-cycle weedwacker's clear fuel lines crumbled to shreds over the winter, that never happened before! I replaced it with thick-wall clear fuel line for my radio-controlled model airplane; it's formulated for some pretty strong stuff. But I have NO idea what to do for VW fuel lines. Mike B. -Original Message- From: Bert Knupp Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM To: 'Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List' Subject: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline Volks, The European classic-car boards are lighting up in panic because of a proposal in the European Community to mandate E10 fuel -- requiring 10% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) in all retail motor fuels. You'd think war had been declared on old-timers and classics: Doom and destruction is being forecast for all the usual reasons, mostly revolving around the hygroscopic characteristics of ethanol. Of course, here in the USA, we've had E15 at our pumps for a long time. And lead-free gasolines even longer. The general question: What adaptations, if any, are required when ethanol gets added routinely to motor fuels? Will our fuel tanks really rust away? Will our butyl rubber fuel lines really turn to silly putty? Are we really seeing any negative effects of our E15 gasoline on longevity, performance, or economy? How about the absence of tetraethyl lead? In the USA, it was the agriculture lobby that bought enough votes to require ethanol use. In Europe, distaste for dependency on Khadafy and his ilk adds to the push (though we've had our share of jingoism, too). What's the Real Story for those of us who drive antique cars with antique engines? Are there any additives we ought to consider? Changes in hoses and tubes? Fuel treatments to spare our gas tanks? Bert Knupp in Music City USA |__n__ (_)º (Ô\_|_/Ô) ü ° ° ü Polizeikäfer '70 ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw
Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline
Check out: http://pure-gas.org Nick Sent from my iPhone On Jun 30, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Mike Morehouse hokiemik...@gmail.com wrote: I have wondered why every few years I'd smell gas in my garage and get under my 72 Bug and find one or more of the rubber fuel lines coming out of the tank or going to the fuel pump were cracking and gas was leaking. We only have access to E10 here in Alabama. I have tried without success to find a station that sells regular octane in 100% gasoline but no luck so I guess I'm committed to changing out rubber lines every couple of years. Mike in AL On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Mike mbucch...@charter.net wrote: Ethanol content in our gas eliminates the need for DryGas. Not a bad thing entirely. Hygroscopic means that it attracts/absorbs water. If there's water in your gas tank (whether from the gas-pumps or from highly humid air condensing in the airspace above a less-than-full tank). It allows the contaminant to burn in the engine along with the gas. This reduces octane as well as the combustion temps as the water cools the mixture. We're all E10 here in New England; gasohol from the 70's, right? They water down our gas and then charge us more for the privilege! What a deal (for them)! So, now it's just a natural course of events to make the move to 15%, and higher! Shorter engine life means we buy cars more often to replace the worn-out, too-expensive-to-repair ones we own now. Yes, this stuff eats fuel lines. My 4-cycle weedwacker's clear fuel lines crumbled to shreds over the winter, that never happened before! I replaced it with thick-wall clear fuel line for my radio-controlled model airplane; it's formulated for some pretty strong stuff. But I have NO idea what to do for VW fuel lines. Mike B. -Original Message- From: Bert Knupp Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM To: 'Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List' Subject: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline Volks, The European classic-car boards are lighting up in panic because of a proposal in the European Community to mandate E10 fuel -- requiring 10% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) in all retail motor fuels. You'd think war had been declared on old-timers and classics: Doom and destruction is being forecast for all the usual reasons, mostly revolving around the hygroscopic characteristics of ethanol. Of course, here in the USA, we've had E15 at our pumps for a long time. And lead-free gasolines even longer. The general question: What adaptations, if any, are required when ethanol gets added routinely to motor fuels? Will our fuel tanks really rust away? Will our butyl rubber fuel lines really turn to silly putty? Are we really seeing any negative effects of our E15 gasoline on longevity, performance, or economy? How about the absence of tetraethyl lead? In the USA, it was the agriculture lobby that bought enough votes to require ethanol use. In Europe, distaste for dependency on Khadafy and his ilk adds to the push (though we've had our share of jingoism, too). What's the Real Story for those of us who drive antique cars with antique engines? Are there any additives we ought to consider? Changes in hoses and tubes? Fuel treatments to spare our gas tanks? Bert Knupp in Music City USA |__n__ (_)º (Ô\_|_/Ô) ü ° ° ü Polizeikäfer '70 ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw
Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline
Bick, Thanks a lot for that site listing stations that carry ethanol-free gasoline! It happens that there are three close to my home, so I'm all set! Bert Knupp in Music City USA -Original Message- From: vintagvw-boun...@lists.sjsu.edu [mailto:vintagvw-boun...@lists.sjsu.edu] On Behalf Of Nicholas Stokes Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 8:40 AM To: Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List Subject: Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline Check out: http://pure-gas.org Nick On Jun 30, 2011, at 9:36 AM, Mike Morehouse hokiemik...@gmail.com wrote: I have wondered why every few years I'd smell gas in my garage and get under my 72 Bug and find one or more of the rubber fuel lines coming out of the tank or going to the fuel pump were cracking and gas was leaking. We only have access to E10 here in Alabama. I have tried without success to find a station that sells regular octane in 100% gasoline but no luck so I guess I'm committed to changing out rubber lines every couple of years. Mike in AL -Original Message- From: Bert Knupp Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM To: 'Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List' Subject: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline Volks, The European classic-car boards are lighting up in panic because of a proposal in the European Community to mandate E10 fuel -- requiring 10% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) in all retail motor fuels. You'd think war had been declared on old-timers and classics: Doom and destruction is being forecast for all the usual reasons, mostly revolving around the hygroscopic characteristics of ethanol. Of course, here in the USA, we've had E15 at our pumps for a long time. And lead-free gasolines even longer. ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw
Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline
Brien, This might help. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1972-05-01/Propane-Conversion.aspx One of the guys in our local club ran across this last weekendI am *very* interested as I can buy propane thru the company I work for for $1.95/gallon.have them bring a 500 gallon tank and park it in my yard and pay once for gasoline for the year. Just a thought Cheers, dave On Thu, 30 Jun 2011, Brien wrote: Burning food! That is my major issue as well. When I lived in brazil in the early 90's they still had beatles as police cars, tazis etc... Most of them were set up to run 3 fuels full ethanol, regular gas and natural gas. The taxi guys were set up to buy and run whatever was cheapest at the time. I have wanted to go back and take the time to see how they do that and do mine that way. Being able to run natural gas would be great. I'll send some links when I get back to a computer. Brien (mobile mail) Dave C. Bolen dbo...@shockwaverider.com wrote: Folks, My experience in air cooled has not been a big deal since everyone was assured long ago that the biggest change was to go to better(stainless) valves. I have not seen much degradation at all on modern rubber lines with ethanol. THE BAD I have used chainsaws extensively for years. My first Sears chainsaw kept me in wood every winter for more than 20 years. My second Sears chainsaw lasted about 5 years before I took it in to get repaired. The mech calls and says it needs a new piston and cylinder for about $130 total. I look at both when I pick the saw up and the piston and cylinder are extremely scored. Mech says you used gasoline with ethanol in your chainsaw... Something about the ethanol and and oil not mixing well/or separating out in both the tank and gas can when not used often(every day). So now I shake the daylights out of the saw and can before I use them. He insisted that I should use ethanol free gas only...but you all know how hard it can be to find. My only other problem with E10 or E15The much worse gas mileage i get. AND the BIGGEST thingwe just laid of about 300 people where I work because the price of corn is so high that you almost can't afford to use it for feed. We need to make sure that ethanol production use non-food grade materials to make ethanol.I really hate burning food in my car. Cheers, dave On Wed, 29 Jun 2011, Mike wrote: Ethanol content in our gas eliminates the need for DryGas. Not a bad thing entirely. Hygroscopic means that it attracts/absorbs water. If there's water in your gas tank (whether from the gas-pumps or from highly humid air condensing in the airspace above a less-than-full tank). It allows the contaminant to burn in the engine along with the gas. This reduces octane as well as the combustion temps as the water cools the mixture. But I have NO idea what to do for VW fuel lines. Mike B. -Original Message- From: Bert Knupp Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM To: 'Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List' Subject: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline Volks, The European classic-car boards are lighting up in panic because of a proposal in the European Community to mandate E10 fuel -- requiring 10% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) in all retail motor fuels. You'd think war had been declared on old-timers and classics: Doom and destruction is being forecast for all the usual reasons, mostly revolving around the hygroscopic characteristics of ethanol. Of course, here in the USA, we've had E15 at our pumps for a long time. And lead-free gasolines even longer. The general question: What adaptations, if any, are required when ethanol gets added routinely to motor fuels? Will our fuel tanks really rust away? Will our butyl rubber fuel lines really turn to silly putty? Are we really seeing any negative effects of our E15 gasoline on longevity, performance, or economy? How about the absence of tetraethyl lead? In the USA, it was the agriculture lobby that bought enough votes to require ethanol use. In Europe, distaste for dependency on Khadafy and his ilk adds to the push (though we've had our share of jingoism, too). What's the Real Story for those of us who drive antique cars with antique engines? Are there any additives we ought to consider? Changes in hoses and tubes? Fuel treatments to spare our gas tanks? Bert Knupp in Music City USA |__n__ (_)º (Ô\_|_/Ô) ü ° ° ü Polizeikäfer '70 ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu
Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline
Ethanol content in our gas eliminates the need for DryGas. Not a bad thing entirely. Hygroscopic means that it attracts/absorbs water. If there's water in your gas tank (whether from the gas-pumps or from highly humid air condensing in the airspace above a less-than-full tank). It allows the contaminant to burn in the engine along with the gas. This reduces octane as well as the combustion temps as the water cools the mixture. We're all E10 here in New England; gasohol from the 70's, right? They water down our gas and then charge us more for the privilege! What a deal (for them)! So, now it's just a natural course of events to make the move to 15%, and higher! Shorter engine life means we buy cars more often to replace the worn-out, too-expensive-to-repair ones we own now. Yes, this stuff eats fuel lines. My 4-cycle weedwacker's clear fuel lines crumbled to shreds over the winter, that never happened before! I replaced it with thick-wall clear fuel line for my radio-controlled model airplane; it's formulated for some pretty strong stuff. But I have NO idea what to do for VW fuel lines. Mike B. -Original Message- From: Bert Knupp Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM To: 'Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List' Subject: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline Volks, The European classic-car boards are lighting up in panic because of a proposal in the European Community to mandate E10 fuel -- requiring 10% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) in all retail motor fuels. You'd think war had been declared on old-timers and classics: Doom and destruction is being forecast for all the usual reasons, mostly revolving around the hygroscopic characteristics of ethanol. Of course, here in the USA, we've had E15 at our pumps for a long time. And lead-free gasolines even longer. The general question: What adaptations, if any, are required when ethanol gets added routinely to motor fuels? Will our fuel tanks really rust away? Will our butyl rubber fuel lines really turn to silly putty? Are we really seeing any negative effects of our E15 gasoline on longevity, performance, or economy? How about the absence of tetraethyl lead? In the USA, it was the agriculture lobby that bought enough votes to require ethanol use. In Europe, distaste for dependency on Khadafy and his ilk adds to the push (though we've had our share of jingoism, too). What's the Real Story for those of us who drive antique cars with antique engines? Are there any additives we ought to consider? Changes in hoses and tubes? Fuel treatments to spare our gas tanks? Bert Knupp in Music City USA |__n__ (_)º (Ô\_|_/Ô) ü ° ° ü Polizeikäfer '70 ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw
Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline
Take a 100ml test tube. Put 10ml of water in test tube. Add 50ml E10 gasoline. Shake well, then let sit. The ethanol will absorb some of the water, and settle out of the gas. You'll be able to tell the ethanol percentage based on the stratification (your 10ml of water will suddenly look like more than 10ml). Decant the gas off the top, and (in theory) you have ethanol free gas. The big question then becomes: what is the octane rating of that ethanol-free gas?! Once the octane rating is known, and providing is it sufficiently high, producing ethanol-free gas becomes somewhat simplistic (although, perhaps, annoying in large volumes). You end up with water-saturated ethanol as a byproduct. No idea what to do with it, but surely that can be figured out. On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Mike mbucch...@charter.net wrote: Ethanol content in our gas eliminates the need for DryGas. Not a bad thing entirely. Hygroscopic means that it attracts/absorbs water. If there's water in your gas tank (whether from the gas-pumps or from highly humid air condensing in the airspace above a less-than-full tank). It allows the contaminant to burn in the engine along with the gas. This reduces octane as well as the combustion temps as the water cools the mixture. We're all E10 here in New England; gasohol from the 70's, right? They water down our gas and then charge us more for the privilege! What a deal (for them)! So, now it's just a natural course of events to make the move to 15%, and higher! Shorter engine life means we buy cars more often to replace the worn-out, too-expensive-to-repair ones we own now. Yes, this stuff eats fuel lines. My 4-cycle weedwacker's clear fuel lines crumbled to shreds over the winter, that never happened before! I replaced it with thick-wall clear fuel line for my radio-controlled model airplane; it's formulated for some pretty strong stuff. But I have NO idea what to do for VW fuel lines. Mike B. -Original Message- From: Bert Knupp Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM To: 'Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List' Subject: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline Volks, The European classic-car boards are lighting up in panic because of a proposal in the European Community to mandate E10 fuel -- requiring 10% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) in all retail motor fuels. You'd think war had been declared on old-timers and classics: Doom and destruction is being forecast for all the usual reasons, mostly revolving around the hygroscopic characteristics of ethanol. Of course, here in the USA, we've had E15 at our pumps for a long time. And lead-free gasolines even longer. The general question: What adaptations, if any, are required when ethanol gets added routinely to motor fuels? Will our fuel tanks really rust away? Will our butyl rubber fuel lines really turn to silly putty? Are we really seeing any negative effects of our E15 gasoline on longevity, performance, or economy? How about the absence of tetraethyl lead? In the USA, it was the agriculture lobby that bought enough votes to require ethanol use. In Europe, distaste for dependency on Khadafy and his ilk adds to the push (though we've had our share of jingoism, too). What's the Real Story for those of us who drive antique cars with antique engines? Are there any additives we ought to consider? Changes in hoses and tubes? Fuel treatments to spare our gas tanks? Bert Knupp in Music City USA |__n__ (_)º (Ô\_|_/Ô) ü ° ° ü Polizeikäfer '70 ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw
Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline
Use a 100 ml graduated cylinder if you can! Retired chem teacher sorry! Eric - Original Message - From: Detrick Merz Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:16 pm Subject: Re: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline To: Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List Take a 100ml test tube. Put 10ml of water in test tube. Add 50ml E10 gasoline. Shake well, then let sit. The ethanol will absorb some of the water, and settle out of the gas. You'll be able to tell the ethanol percentage based on the stratification (your 10ml of water will suddenly look like more than 10ml). Decant the gas off the top, and (in theory) you have ethanol free gas. The big question then becomes: what is the octane rating of that ethanol-free gas?! Once the octane rating is known, and providing is it sufficiently high, producing ethanol-free gas becomes somewhat simplistic (although, perhaps, annoying in large volumes). You end up with water-saturated ethanol as a byproduct. No idea what to do with it, but surely that can be figured out. On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Mike wrote: Ethanol content in our gas eliminates the need for DryGas. Not a bad thing entirely. Hygroscopic means that it attracts/absorbs water. If there's water in your gas tank (whether from the gas-pumps or from highly humid air condensing in the airspace above a less-than-full tank). It allows the contaminant to burn in the engine along with the gas. This reduces octane as well as the combustion temps as the water cools the mixture. We're all E10 here in New England; gasohol from the 70's, right? They water down our gas and then charge us more for the privilege! What a deal (for them)! So, now it's just a natural course of events to make the move to 15%, and higher! Shorter engine life means we buy cars more often to replace the worn-out, too-expensive-to-repair ones we own now. Yes, this stuff eats fuel lines. My 4-cycle weedwacker's clear fuel lines crumbled to shreds over the winter, that never happened before! I replaced it with thick-wall clear fuel line for my radio- controlled model airplane; it's formulated for some pretty strong stuff. But I have NO idea what to do for VW fuel lines. Mike B. -Original Message- From: Bert Knupp Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:48 PM To: 'Air-Cooled Volkswagen Discussion List' Subject: [vintagvw] Ethanol in gasoline Volks, The European classic-car boards are lighting up in panic because of a proposal in the European Community to mandate E10 fuel -- requiring 10% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) in all retail motor fuels. You'd think war had been declared on old-timers and classics: Doom and destruction is being forecast for all the usual reasons, mostly revolving around the hygroscopic characteristics of ethanol. Of course, here in the USA, we've had E15 at our pumps for a long time. And lead-free gasolines even longer. The general question: What adaptations, if any, are required when ethanol gets added routinely to motor fuels? Will our fuel tanks really rust away? Will our butyl rubber fuel lines really turn to silly putty? Are we really seeing any negative effects of our E15 gasoline on longevity, performance, or economy? How about the absence of tetraethyl lead? In the USA, it was the agriculture lobby that bought enough votes to require ethanol use. In Europe, distaste for dependency on Khadafy and his ilk adds to the push (though we've had our share of jingoism, too). What's the Real Story for those of us who drive antique cars with antique engines? Are there any additives we ought to consider? Changes in hoses and tubes? Fuel treatments to spare our gas tanks? Bert Knupp in Music City USA |__n__ (_)º (Ô\_|_/Ô) ü ° ° ü Polizeikäfer '70 ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw ___ vintagvw site list vintagvw@lists.sjsu.edu http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vintagvw
