Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Carlos Alvarez]

Now there's an idea that is both easy to implement, and should be
reliable.  Of course, for home routers then you'd have no 911 location
though.  But at least at a company level they'd auto-provision.  On the
other hand we can do that one by IP too.


On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 5:45 AM Matthew Crocker 
wrote:

> Location information should be pushed to the phone via DHCP.  The DHCP
> server can get option82 information from the PoE switch port.  The phone
> should then include the information in an INVITE for emergency calls based
> on its dial plan. The carrier can pass the information through to the NG911
> PSAP.
>
> > On Oct 26, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Carlos Alvarez  wrote:
> >
> > That’s A-GPS using WiFi and related location databases. A raw, basic,
> $40 gps module attached to an arduino gets nothing useful in the middle of
> my standard wood and stucco house.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >> On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:48 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Depends on the construction.
> >> I usually get a good GPS fix on my cell phone indoors.
> >>
> >> Then again, I don't work in the 4th sub-basement of a skyscraper. ;)
> >>
> >> -A
> >>
> >>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 10:36 PM Carlos Alvarez 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> They don’t work indoors.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Sent from my iPad
> >>>
>  On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:07 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps <
> voiceops@voiceops.org> wrote:
> 
>  I've always wondered why VoIP phones don't have a cheap GPS chip in
> them.
> 
>  Sure, it could raise all sorts of problems from a spoofing
>  perspective, but for valid 911 calls it could come in handy...
> 
>  -A
> > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:41 PM Ryan Delgrosso <
> ryandelgro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.
> >
> > West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location
> inside a building to provide additional routing info but nothing using
> geo-location.
> >
> > You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on
> network location.
> >
> > I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most
> IP handsets dont to those things.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
> >
> > Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a
> phone and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a
> difficult if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer
> asked me.
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Matthew Crocker]

Location information should be pushed to the phone via DHCP.  The DHCP server 
can get option82 information from the PoE switch port.  The phone should then 
include the information in an INVITE for emergency calls based on its dial 
plan. The carrier can pass the information through to the NG911 PSAP.  

> On Oct 26, 2018, at 8:36 AM, Carlos Alvarez  wrote:
> 
> That’s A-GPS using WiFi and related location databases. A raw, basic, $40 gps 
> module attached to an arduino gets nothing useful in the middle of my 
> standard wood and stucco house. 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:48 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
>> 
>> Depends on the construction.
>> I usually get a good GPS fix on my cell phone indoors.
>> 
>> Then again, I don't work in the 4th sub-basement of a skyscraper. ;)
>> 
>> -A
>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 10:36 PM Carlos Alvarez  wrote:
>>> 
>>> They don’t work indoors.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
 On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:07 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps 
  wrote:
 
 I've always wondered why VoIP phones don't have a cheap GPS chip in them.
 
 Sure, it could raise all sorts of problems from a spoofing
 perspective, but for valid 911 calls it could come in handy...
 
 -A
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:41 PM Ryan Delgrosso  
> wrote:
> 
> Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.
> 
> West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location inside 
> a building to provide additional routing info but nothing using 
> geo-location.
> 
> You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on 
> network location.
> 
> I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most IP 
> handsets dont to those things.
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
> 
> Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone 
> and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a 
> difficult if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer 
> asked me.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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 ___
 VoiceOps mailing list
 VoiceOps@voiceops.org
 https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Carlos Alvarez]

That’s A-GPS using WiFi and related location databases. A raw, basic, $40 gps 
module attached to an arduino gets nothing useful in the middle of my standard 
wood and stucco house. 


-- 
Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:48 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn  wrote:
> 
> Depends on the construction.
> I usually get a good GPS fix on my cell phone indoors.
> 
> Then again, I don't work in the 4th sub-basement of a skyscraper. ;)
> 
> -A
> 
>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 10:36 PM Carlos Alvarez  wrote:
>> 
>> They don’t work indoors.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:07 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've always wondered why VoIP phones don't have a cheap GPS chip in them.
>>> 
>>> Sure, it could raise all sorts of problems from a spoofing
>>> perspective, but for valid 911 calls it could come in handy...
>>> 
>>> -A
 On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:41 PM Ryan Delgrosso  
 wrote:
 
 Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.
 
 West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location inside 
 a building to provide additional routing info but nothing using 
 geo-location.
 
 You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on 
 network location.
 
 I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most IP 
 handsets dont to those things.
 
 
 
 On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
 
 Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone 
 and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a difficult 
 if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer asked me.
 
 
 
 ___
 VoiceOps mailing list
 VoiceOps@voiceops.org
 https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
 
 
 ___
 VoiceOps mailing list
 VoiceOps@voiceops.org
 https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>>> ___
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>>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Nicholas Sten]

I don't think anyone wants to implement a YMMV solution especially in a 
situation with such liability.


> On Oct 26, 2018, at 1:48 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps 
>  wrote:
> 
> Depends on the construction.
> I usually get a good GPS fix on my cell phone indoors.
> 
> Then again, I don't work in the 4th sub-basement of a skyscraper. ;)
> 
> -A
> 
>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 10:36 PM Carlos Alvarez  wrote:
>> 
>> They don’t work indoors.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:07 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I've always wondered why VoIP phones don't have a cheap GPS chip in them.
>>> 
>>> Sure, it could raise all sorts of problems from a spoofing
>>> perspective, but for valid 911 calls it could come in handy...
>>> 
>>> -A
 On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:41 PM Ryan Delgrosso  
 wrote:
 
 Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.
 
 West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location inside 
 a building to provide additional routing info but nothing using 
 geo-location.
 
 You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on 
 network location.
 
 I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most IP 
 handsets dont to those things.
 
 
 
 On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
 
 Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone 
 and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a difficult 
 if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer asked me.
 
 
 
 ___
 VoiceOps mailing list
 VoiceOps@voiceops.org
 https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
 
 
 ___
 VoiceOps mailing list
 VoiceOps@voiceops.org
 https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Nicholas Sten]

GPS doesn't function particularly well indoors for a variety of technical 
reasons.


> On Oct 26, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've always wondered why VoIP phones don't have a cheap GPS chip in them.
> 
> Sure, it could raise all sorts of problems from a spoofing
> perspective, but for valid 911 calls it could come in handy...
> 
> -A
>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:41 PM Ryan Delgrosso  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.
>> 
>> West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location inside a 
>> building to provide additional routing info but nothing using geo-location.
>> 
>> You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on network 
>> location.
>> 
>> I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most IP 
>> handsets dont to those things.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
>> 
>> Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone and 
>> automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a difficult if 
>> not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer asked me.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
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>> 
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps]

Depends on the construction.
I usually get a good GPS fix on my cell phone indoors.

Then again, I don't work in the 4th sub-basement of a skyscraper. ;)

-A

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 10:36 PM Carlos Alvarez  wrote:
>
> They don’t work indoors.
>
>
> --
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:07 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > I've always wondered why VoIP phones don't have a cheap GPS chip in them.
> >
> > Sure, it could raise all sorts of problems from a spoofing
> > perspective, but for valid 911 calls it could come in handy...
> >
> > -A
> >> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:41 PM Ryan Delgrosso  
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.
> >>
> >> West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location inside 
> >> a building to provide additional routing info but nothing using 
> >> geo-location.
> >>
> >> You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on 
> >> network location.
> >>
> >> I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most IP 
> >> handsets dont to those things.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
> >>
> >> Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone 
> >> and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a difficult 
> >> if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer asked me.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> VoiceOps mailing list
> >> VoiceOps@voiceops.org
> >> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
> >>
> >>
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Carlos Alvarez]

They don’t work indoors. 


-- 
Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:07 PM, Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps 
>  wrote:
> 
> I've always wondered why VoIP phones don't have a cheap GPS chip in them.
> 
> Sure, it could raise all sorts of problems from a spoofing
> perspective, but for valid 911 calls it could come in handy...
> 
> -A
>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:41 PM Ryan Delgrosso  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.
>> 
>> West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location inside a 
>> building to provide additional routing info but nothing using geo-location.
>> 
>> You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on network 
>> location.
>> 
>> I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most IP 
>> handsets dont to those things.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
>> 
>> Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone and 
>> automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a difficult if 
>> not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer asked me.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/voiceops
>> 
>> 
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Aaron C. de Bruyn via VoiceOps]

I've always wondered why VoIP phones don't have a cheap GPS chip in them.

Sure, it could raise all sorts of problems from a spoofing
perspective, but for valid 911 calls it could come in handy...

-A
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 4:41 PM Ryan Delgrosso  wrote:
>
> Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.
>
> West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location inside a 
> building to provide additional routing info but nothing using geo-location.
>
> You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on network 
> location.
>
> I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most IP 
> handsets dont to those things.
>
>
>
> On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
>
> Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone and 
> automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a difficult if not 
> impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer asked me.
>
>
>
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Ryan Delgrosso]

Automatic, nope. Psuedo-auto im looking at it now.

West supports sending custom headers to indicate a phones location 
inside a building to provide additional routing info but nothing using 
geo-location.


You could leverage this to have phones send custom headers based on 
network location.


I have not seen anything using geo-ip or GPS primarily because most IP 
handsets dont to those things.




On 10/23/2018 4:21 PM, Carlos Alvarez wrote:
Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a 
phone and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a 
difficult if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a 
customer asked me.




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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Fred Posner]

On 10/23/18 7:36 PM, Andrew Haninger wrote:

(This time to the group. Sorry for the dupe, Carlos.)

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 19:22 Carlos Alvarez > wrote:


Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a
phone and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's
a difficult if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a
customer asked me.


The Skype for Business system does this where I work. It uses the 
location of the nearest AP or the location recorded for the jack you're 
using if you're wired. If neither are available, the SfB application 
asks the user to enter their location.


The analog phones we're switching from only update when an order is 
processed, but then customers generally have to put in a request for us 
to do a MAC order. The local PSAP will report to us if they get a 911 
call with incorrect name or location info.


It's not fool proof and there is plenty of room for errors, but it's not 
too bad, either.


Andt



The best approach I saw was in a research demo at cluecon:

https://youtu.be/A8i2psbeYT4

We're still not there in most aspects because either (a) you need to 
constantly enter and verify information or (b) information will not be 
up to date.


--fred
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Re: [VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Andrew Haninger]

(This time to the group. Sorry for the dupe, Carlos.)

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018, 19:22 Carlos Alvarez  wrote:

> Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone
> and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a difficult
> if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer asked me.
>

The Skype for Business system does this where I work. It uses the location
of the nearest AP or the location recorded for the jack you're using if
you're wired. If neither are available, the SfB application asks the user
to enter their location.

The analog phones we're switching from only update when an order is
processed, but then customers generally have to put in a request for us to
do a MAC order. The local PSAP will report to us if they get a 911 call
with incorrect name or location info.

It's not fool proof and there is plenty of room for errors, but it's not
too bad, either.

Andt

>
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[VoiceOps] Automatic 911 location updates

[Carlos Alvarez]

Is anyone doing this yet?  The ability to detect the location of a phone
and automatically update the 911 address?  Yes, I realize it's a difficult
if not impossible thing, yet thought I'd ask since a customer asked me.
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