RE: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

[Jones Beene]

From: ChemE Stewart 

*   OOPS DEFAULT
*   
http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2015/12/15/nrg-ivanpah-faces-chance-of-default-PGE-contract

Just to avoid any wrong implications, Stewart - any default would be a 
bookkeeping adjustment for Google’s tax purposes. Solar is growing rapidly in 
Cal. and it will be the lowest cost energy option by the end of next year, or 
sooner if natural gas prices return to historical norms. Google Swanson's law.

Compare that to a close nuclear plant to you. TVA estimated this beauty would 
cost 2 billion when it started in 1973, and it ended up at 6.5 or more 
depending on how one accounts for the interest payed during the long delay, 
since it is not yet running. (for 1.1 GW) 
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2015/oct/23/nrc-grants-operating-license-watts-bar-unit-2/332065/

According to the Solar Electric Power Association, in 2014 California had 
installed 4.3 GW… but that has increased to 11.5 GW today and should go to 15 
GW by the end of 2016. Compared to the installed cost of new nuclear power, 
this looks like a bargain, even when adjusted for daytime hours :-) 

The economists look at solar as a long term investment, like a toll bridge. The 
Golden Gate bridge cost $27 million to build, which sounded outrageously high 
at the time but now produces revenues of $125 million every year…. Solar power 
will not be as dramatic a cash cow in a few decades, but there is no refueling 
cost every 5-6 years… and mirrors tend to last a long time.

RE: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

[Jones Beene]

There is a recently funded (ARPA-E) technology which could push solar into 
higher demand by lowering cost per kW. It is a “brilliant” idea, so to speak.

There are two primary methods for using sunlight: direct conversion to 
electricity using photovoltaics, or focusing sunlight onto a fluid that is used 
to drive a steam turbine - aka concentrated solar power (CSP). 

Combining the best of both technologies could provide a means to get the more 
from the solar spectrum, generating both electricity and storable heat (for 
later use) within the same system. 

Arizona State U is developing a hybrid solar energy system that modifies the 
single axis CSP “trough” design, converting the mirrored trough with solar 
cells that collect direct rays while reflecting the rest of the direct sunlight 
to a thermal absorber to generate heat. 

I can find no recent update on the ARPA announcement but it sounds like a great 
idea.

http://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=slick-sheet-project/solar-concentrating-photovoltaic-mirror

 

[Vo]:isoperibolic calorimetry

[Eric Walker]

I know very little about calorimetry.  When I see reports along the lines
of "using isoperibolic calorimetry, we saw 200 J of excess heat," etc., I
think to myself "perhaps there were 200 J of excess heat.  I wouldn't know
for sure."

Recently there has been an analysis purporting to show that isoperibolic
calorimetry is inherently unreliable:

http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2426-How-to-read-LENR-experimental-results/?postID=10939#post10939

This conclusion does not ring true to me.  Perhaps Jed or someone else
knowledgeable can comment on the matter.

Eric

[Vo]:MY WISH IS 2016 YEAR OF AWAKENING

[Peter Gluck]

http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2015/12/dec-30-2015-my-wish-2016-year-of-lenr.html

self explanatory, with a bit of music

Peter
-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

[ChemE Stewart]

Mirrors last a long time in the desert? With wind and sand blowing? 375,000
motors turning? Taxpayers paid $1.6B for this plant, Google is a minority.

BTW this plant burns natural gas...
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ivanpah-may-be-burning-enough-natural-gas-to-qualify-for-cap-and-trade-in-c

I hope you are right.  I like distributed PV, not this albatross.

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015, Jones Beene  wrote:

> *From:* ChemE Stewart
>
> Ø   OOPS DEFAULT
>
> Ø
> *http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2015/12/15/nrg-ivanpah-faces-chance-of-default-PGE-contract*
> 
>
> Just to avoid any wrong implications, Stewart - any default would be a
> bookkeeping adjustment for Google’s tax purposes. Solar is growing rapidly in
> Cal. and it will be the lowest cost energy option by the end of next
> year, or sooner if natural gas prices return to historical norms. Google
> Swanson's law.
>
> Compare that to a close nuclear plant to you. TVA estimated this beauty
> would cost 2 billion when it started in 1973, and it ended up at 6.5 or
> more depending on how one accounts for the interest payed during the long
> delay, since it is not yet running. (for 1.1 GW)
> *http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2015/oct/23/nrc-grants-operating-license-watts-bar-unit-2/332065/*
> 
>
> According to the Solar Electric Power Association, in 2014 California had 
> installed
> 4.3 GW… but that has increased to 11.5 GW today and should go to 15 GW by
> the end of 2016. Compared to the installed cost of new nuclear power, this 
> looks
> like a bargain, even when adjusted for daytime hours J
>
> The economists look at solar as a long term investment, like a toll brid
> ge. The Golden Gate bridge cost $27 million to build, which sounded
> outrageously high at the time but now produces revenues of $125 million
> every year…. Solar power will not be as dramatic a cash cow in a few
> decades, but there is no refueling cost every 5-6 years… and mirrors tend
> to last a long time.
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

[mixent]

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Wed, 30 Dec 2015 10:03:42 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>Arizona State U is developing a hybrid solar energy system that modifies the 
>single axis CSP “trough” design, converting the mirrored trough with solar 
>cells that collect direct rays while reflecting the rest of the direct 
>sunlight to a thermal absorber to generate heat. 

I don't see why they don't just attach the back of the solar cells to the wall
of a cooling tube. This kills two birds with one stone. Water is heated, and the
cells are actively cooled allowing use a of a higher concentration of light.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

RE: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

[Jones Beene]

Looking at the super bright incandescence of the tower of the CSP station at 
Ivanpah (makes a nice screensaver) also brings to mind another possible hybrid… 
plasmonics.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.6949

“Plasmonic materials for energy: from physics to applications” by Svetlana 
Boriskina of MIT. 

Boriskina - the #1 guru of Plasmonics, suggests that photovoltaics could get a 
major boost from SPP. Quote: “High density of optical states in the vicinity of 
plasmonic structures enhances light absorption and emission, enables localized 
heating, and drives near-field heat exchange between hot and cold surfaces. SP 
modes channel the energy of absorbed photons directly to the free electrons, 
and the generated hot electrons can be utilized in thermoelectric, photovoltaic 
and photo-catalytic platforms.”

Why stop with SPP-boosted PV ?  There could be more…

Holy heliostats! there’s no good reason that a solar/LENR hybrid could not be 
implemented… (you heard it first on Vortex)

 
There is a recently funded (ARPA-E) technology which could push solar into 
higher demand by lowering cost per kW. It is a “brilliant” idea, so to speak.
There are two primary methods for using sunlight: direct conversion to 
electricity using photovoltaics, or focusing sunlight onto a fluid that is used 
to drive a steam turbine - aka concentrated solar power (CSP). 
Combining the best of both technologies could provide a means to get the more 
from the solar spectrum, generating both electricity and storable heat (for 
later use) within the same system. 
Arizona State U is developing a hybrid solar energy system that modifies the 
single axis CSP “trough” design, converting the mirrored trough with solar 
cells that collect direct rays while reflecting the rest of the direct sunlight 
to a thermal absorber to generate heat. 
I can find no recent update on the ARPA announcement but it sounds like a great 
idea.
http://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=slick-sheet-project/solar-concentrating-photovoltaic-mirror

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

[Jed Rothwell]

ChemE Stewart  wrote:

Mirrors last a long time in the desert? With wind and sand blowing?


They last for a remarkably long time. Many of the SEGS parabolic mirror
generators in the Mojave desert have been working since the late 1980s and
they are still in good condition.

The people who designed this know what they are doing. They have been
building similar installations in the U.S., Spain and Israel for 40 years
now.



> 375,000 motors turning? Taxpayers paid $1.6B for this plant, Google is a
> minority.


The taxpayers will get their money back eventually. The power companies are
not going to stop buying electricity from this installation. They may
renegotiate the price, so the payback may take longer, but the taxpayer
loans are first in line and they will be settled first. The operating cost
of the facility is low. It is turning a profit on current operations.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Crescent Dunes Solar Energy Project

[Jed Rothwell]

I wrote:


> The taxpayers will get their money back eventually. The power companies
> are not going to stop buying electricity from this installation. They may
> renegotiate the price . . .
>

Source:

I think I read this at Renewable Energy World, but I cannot find the
article. Anyway, that is the usual arrangement. Since the machine is up and
running, and making a profit on current operations, the taxpayers should be
reimbursed. The owners may face bankruptcy.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/index.html

The article went on to say this is quite different from the situation at
Solyndra. There was no revenue stream when Solyndra went bankrupt. They did
not have anything up and running.

When a company goes bankrupt, if there are parts of the company which are
making a current profit, the courts are careful to keep those parts in
business. They try not to sell off assets or do anything else which will
disrupt those parts and stop the flow of income. They try not to cause more
unemployment than necessary. On the other hand, they direct the current
profit flow to the creditors, and away from stockholders. When Uncle Sam is
among the creditors or unpaid vendors, he always goes to the front of the
line. That's how it works.

The Solyndra bankruptcy has been called a scandal. It is not a scandal. Any
investment can go south. Many governments supported ventures have failed.
In this case, the Solyndra portion of the fund failed but overall the fund
did exceptionally well and made a ton of money for the taxpayers. You might
argue that the Federal government should not be investing in technology.
That might appeal to purists who think the government should play no role
in the economy, but as I have often pointed out, the government has played
a leading role since the construction of the Erie Canal, and in ever major
technology since then. If it had not, I expect the U.S. would have lost the
Civil War, WWI and WWII.

Since most Federal money goes to conventional technology such as coal and
oil, I do not think the industry should complain.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Request upvote support

[Esa Ruoho]

Hi Jed. Just recommended your link and tweeted it elsewhere.

BTW, just 17 thumbs up? Not even a Readers' Pick or NYT Pick? :( What a
shame.

It would appear that you need 50-60 more thumbups before it will be a
readers' pick.

On 25 December 2015 at 18:25, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Merry Christmas.
>
> Please upvote this to make it more visible!
>
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/opinion/things-to-celebrate-like-dreams-of-flying-cars.html?comments#permid=17041393
>
> It is good to see Krugman taking interest in alternative energy.
>
> - Jed
>
>


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//
skype:esajuhaniruoho // http://esaruoho.tumblr.com/ // iMessage:
esaru...@gmail.com //

Re: [Vo]:Request upvote support

[Jed Rothwell]

Esa Ruoho  wrote:

Hi Jed. Just recommended your link and tweeted it elsewhere.
>

Thanks!



> BTW, just 17 thumbs up? Not even a Readers' Pick or NYT Pick? :( What a
> shame.
>

It is listed in the Reader's Picks, but it is way down the list, because it
only got 17 votes. The more votes you get, the higher up the list you go.
The two highest comments at the top of the list got 503 and 421 votes. That
shows people are not very interested in cold fusion. Or it shows that my
message is not persuasive.

- Jed