Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Swoosh.
...that went right over my head.
Harry


On Sun., Oct. 18, 2020, 2:43 p.m. Terry Blanton,  wrote:

> Heterodyne intermodulation distortion in non-linear combiners.
>
> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4139053
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 11:44 AM H LV  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
>> wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
>> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
>> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
>> this additive process for me?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 3:56 PM Bob Higgins 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz
>>> signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte.  In the
>>> Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the
>>> cathode to produce the nonlinearity.  Did it work because it formed a diode
>>> junction?  Was the nonlinearity plasmon related?  That is presently unknown
>>> - but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>>>
 Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear
 element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they
 shine on, itself?

 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins 
 wrote:

> Sean,
>
> What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can
> be driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of
> ordinary output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an
> expensive "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.
>
> Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
> experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
> fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
> continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
> nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan 
> wrote:
>
>> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
>> sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
>> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference 
>> frequencies
>> (sidebands, or heterodynes).
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:
>>
>>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory
>>> of radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
>>> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>>>
>>> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended)
>>> with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
>>> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the
>>> difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of
>>> differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in
>>> temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more 
>>> hot
>>> or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the
>>> difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency
>>> determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of 
>>> the
>>> oscillator.
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>
>>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

No, not exactly.  Addition is a linear process and produces no frequencies
in the output of the summation which are not present in the input.  A
nonlinear process is commonly applied to the summation to create beats.
For example putting a summation of sine wave voltages onto a diode would
produce a nonlinear current that would contain the beats.

Sampling, like multiplication, is also a nonlinear process that can produce
beats.

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:19 PM H LV  wrote:

> So the addition of frequencies requires that the input signal already
> contains a non-linear component.
> and for entirely linear input the frequencies would not be additive.
> Harry
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:08 PM Bob Higgins 
> wrote:
>
>> To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
>> nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a +
>> bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
>> then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
>> Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
>> nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
>> frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
>> It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
>> frequencies.
>>
>> In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication taking
>> place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
>> difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
>>> wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
>>> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
>>> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
>>> this additive process for me?
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Terry Blanton]

Heterodyne intermodulation distortion in non-linear combiners.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4139053

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 11:44 AM H LV  wrote:

> Hi,
> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third wave
> with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
> this additive process for me?
>
> Harry
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 3:56 PM Bob Higgins 
> wrote:
>
>> The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz
>> signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte.  In the
>> Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the
>> cathode to produce the nonlinearity.  Did it work because it formed a diode
>> junction?  Was the nonlinearity plasmon related?  That is presently unknown
>> - but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear
>>> element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they
>>> shine on, itself?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Sean,

 What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can
 be driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of
 ordinary output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an
 expensive "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.

 Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
 experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
 fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
 continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
 nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.

 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan  wrote:

> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
> sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies
> (sidebands, or heterodynes).
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:
>
>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory
>> of radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
>> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>>
>> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended)
>> with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
>> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the
>> difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of
>> differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in
>> temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more 
>> hot
>> or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the
>> difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency
>> determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the
>> oscillator.
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this
>>> was  in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies –
>>> single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been
>>> reported by Letts/Cravens.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -
>>>  but I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is 
>>> leading
>>> anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *H LV 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>>>
>>> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis
>>> Letts and Peter Hagelstein
>>>
>>> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

So the addition of frequencies requires that the input signal already
contains a non-linear component.
and for entirely linear input the frequencies would not be additive.
Harry

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:08 PM Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
> nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a +
> bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
> then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
> Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
> nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
> frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
> It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
> frequencies.
>
> In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication taking
> place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
> difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
>> wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
>> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
>> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
>> this additive process for me?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>>

RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

I consudert that the phonic parat
Meters of a given system are a function of the size of the qm system the has 
the phonic capability.

The ambient magnetic field controles the direction of the angu7lar momentum of 
the elecvtronic structure.  \
\
To allow a transfer of angular momentum iit is necessary to have the phonic 
magnetic moment near the directiuon of the nuclear entity giving up angular 
momentum and energy rto to the accepting phonic structure of the coupled 
system,.

A laser magmetic  field may supply the required direction in the instant the 
“phase change” happens/,.  Angular momemtum m and energy must be conserved

A strong ambient magnetic field math a coridnated laser beam may make the 
reaction easier to contril/.

Bob Cook

Y spelling i9s poor because of pour eye sight.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jürg Wyttenbach
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 3:18 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats


Unluckily Hagelstein has no clue of LENR!

Phonons energy up-scaling is not what enables LENR. The LENR reaction needs no 
energy input to induce it. It's the other way round. LENR happens if you can 
extract the excess energy. But the end of all energy is always phonons=heat and 
thus a LENR reaction needs an optimal phonon target energy for maximal 
efficient coupling. The more phonons are ready to synchronize the faster a 
reaction runs.

Gamma radiation only occurs when the phonon resonance stops/ is broken.

J.W.




On 16.10.2020 18:29, Bob Higgins wrote:
We are talking about THz stimulation of a cathode in a Pd-D electrolysis LENR 
cell.  Certain frequencies of THz excitation stimulate LENR to occur, the 
frequencies being around 8, 15, 21 THz.  These are believed to be phonon 
frequencies in the loaded Pd-D lattice.  Thus, the Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein 
experiment of the tuned dual laser illumination seems to implicate phonons in, 
at least, the stimulation of LENR.  It is a very interesting probe into the 
underlying mechanism of LENR.

Here is the curve:
[cid:image002.png@01D6A53C.D9C92FF0]
It is from:

Hagelstein, P. L., D. Letts, and D. Cravens. "Terahertz difference frequency 
response of Pd-D in two-lader experiments." J. Condensed Matter Nucl. Sci. 3 
(2010) 59-76


On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:32 PM Robert Lee 
mailto:mrrobert...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or removing heat 
in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or simply producing 
energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously, missed a few emails, too. 
Just curious.
Bob Lee

[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png]
Virus-free. 
www.avg.com

--

Jürg Wyttenbach

Bifangstr. 22

8910 Affoltern am Albis



+41 44 760 14 18

+41 79 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a +
bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
frequencies.

In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication taking
place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:

> Hi,
> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third wave
> with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
> this additive process for me?
>
> Harry
>
>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

If cold is a thing, then perhaps the laser is a cold pump and what is being
extracted are longer (cooler) wavelength vibrations  from the electrode,
thereby increasing the electrode's capacity to absorb shorter (hotter)
wavelengths from the laboratory surroundings. These hotter wavelengths then
enable nuclear activity.

Notice this explanation does not violate the phenomenological or classical
second law of thermodynamics since the excess energy is absorbed from the
surroundings.

Anyway nature is coaxed into doing the hard work, but the coaxing does
require little prep work.

Harry


On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 6:18 AM Jürg Wyttenbach  wrote:

> Unluckily Hagelstein has no clue of LENR!
>
> Phonons energy up-scaling is not what enables LENR. The LENR reaction
> needs no energy input to induce it. It's the other way round. LENR happens
> if you can extract the excess energy. But the end of all energy is always
> phonons=heat and thus a LENR reaction needs an optimal phonon target energy
> for maximal efficient coupling. The more phonons are ready to synchronize
> the faster a reaction runs.
>
> Gamma radiation only occurs when the phonon resonance stops/ is broken.
>
> J.W.
>
>
>
> On 16.10.2020 18:29, Bob Higgins wrote:
>
> We are talking about THz stimulation of a cathode in a Pd-D electrolysis
> LENR cell.  Certain frequencies of THz excitation stimulate LENR to occur,
> the frequencies being around 8, 15, 21 THz.  These are believed to be
> phonon frequencies in the loaded Pd-D lattice.  Thus, the
> Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment of the tuned dual laser illumination
> seems to implicate phonons in, at least, the stimulation of LENR.  It is a
> very interesting probe into the underlying mechanism of LENR.
>
> Here is the curve:
> [image: XPvsLaserBeatFrequency_Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein.png]
> It is from:
>
> Hagelstein, P. L., D. Letts, and D. Cravens. "Terahertz difference
> frequency response of Pd-D in two-lader experiments." J. Condensed Matter
> Nucl. Sci. 3 (2010) 59-76
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:32 PM Robert Lee  wrote:
>
>> I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or
>> removing heat in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or
>> simply producing energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously,
>> missed a few emails, too. Just curious.
>> Bob Lee
>>
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
>
> --
> Jürg Wyttenbach
> Bifangstr. 22
> 8910 Affoltern am Albis
>
> +41 44 760 14 18
> +41 79 246 36 06
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Hi,
When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third wave
with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
this additive process for me?

Harry

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 3:56 PM Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz
> signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte.  In the
> Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the
> cathode to produce the nonlinearity.  Did it work because it formed a diode
> junction?  Was the nonlinearity plasmon related?  That is presently unknown
> - but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target.
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>
>> Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear
>> element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they
>> shine on, itself?
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins  wrote:
>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can be
>>> driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary
>>> output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive
>>> "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.
>>>
>>> Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
>>> experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
>>> fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
>>> continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
>>> nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>>>
 Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
 sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
 "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies
 (sidebands, or heterodynes).


 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:

> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory
> of radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>
> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended)
> with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the
> difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of
> differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in
> temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more hot
> or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the
> difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency
> determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the
> oscillator.
>
> Harry
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was
>>  in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>>
>>
>>
>> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies –
>> single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been
>> reported by Letts/Cravens.
>>
>>
>>
>> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -
>>  but I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading
>> anywhere.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *H LV 
>>
>>
>>
>> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>>
>> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis
>> Letts and Peter Hagelstein
>>
>> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>