RE: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
It will have to come about in stages. Right now, step one is ( I hope) seeing a permanent end to US hegemony and policing the world. What is the point of clamoring for fairness and other progressive ideas if there’s no money to do anything with? I don’t comprehend the current mindset that complains about racism/sexism/injustice – but accepts pointless, expensive wars across the globe. There’s an outcry whenever some act of discrimination gets exposed here – but the lives of millions of Libyans ( after the US destroyed their government) mean almost nothing, not even an issue in a national political campaign. Money for health care and education gets wasted on futile conflicts. Putin is hated because he wants a free trade zone ‘from Lisbon to Vladivostok’ – which would leave Russia happily in the middle and the US outside. God speed to that.
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Do you know of any other solution to the mess? I fear we are in for more of the same, just with a different slogan. AA On 12/12/2016 10:52 AM, Chris Zell wrote: I read most of your letter and found it articulate. *From:*a.ashfield [mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net] *Sent:* Monday, December 12, 2016 10:44 AM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away Chris, I take it you didn't read the piece I linked after your previous comment AA On 12/12/2016 10:18 AM, Chris Zell wrote: During wartime or prison camp conditions, people commonly turn on one another and slide backwards into predation. I think much of that fight for survival would be eliminated with free energy and whatever “communism” emerged would be very different from the horrors we’ve seen in the 20^th century. Someone once argued that part of the drive to conquer eastern Europe by the Nazi’s was derived from their failure to make agriculture more productive. We already have services that are managed in common such as national parks, police and fire departments.
RE: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
I read most of your letter and found it articulate. From: a.ashfield [mailto:a.ashfi...@verizon.net] Sent: Monday, December 12, 2016 10:44 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away Chris, I take it you didn't read the piece I linked after your previous comment AA On 12/12/2016 10:18 AM, Chris Zell wrote: During wartime or prison camp conditions, people commonly turn on one another and slide backwards into predation. I think much of that fight for survival would be eliminated with free energy and whatever “communism” emerged would be very different from the horrors we’ve seen in the 20th century. Someone once argued that part of the drive to conquer eastern Europe by the Nazi’s was derived from their failure to make agriculture more productive. We already have services that are managed in common such as national parks, police and fire departments.
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Chris, I take it you didn't read the piece I linked after your previous comment AA On 12/12/2016 10:18 AM, Chris Zell wrote: During wartime or prison camp conditions, people commonly turn on one another and slide backwards into predation. I think much of that fight for survival would be eliminated with free energy and whatever “communism” emerged would be very different from the horrors we’ve seen in the 20^th century. Someone once argued that part of the drive to conquer eastern Europe by the Nazi’s was derived from their failure to make agriculture more productive. We already have services that are managed in common such as national parks, police and fire departments.
RE: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
During wartime or prison camp conditions, people commonly turn on one another and slide backwards into predation. I think much of that fight for survival would be eliminated with free energy and whatever “communism” emerged would be very different from the horrors we’ve seen in the 20th century. Someone once argued that part of the drive to conquer eastern Europe by the Nazi’s was derived from their failure to make agriculture more productive. We already have services that are managed in common such as national parks, police and fire departments.
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Alain I have the same experience about China.(France and US). Isn't a good idea neglect political labels. There is none providing a 'best' result or worse for that matter. The culture with which they are implemented is more of an important factor. Eliminating energy pro lens would be a step to reduce tension in the world. LENR is an important issue. Another important factor would be to eliminate the bureaucrats supported by various political and cultural dogma. I think that can happen when we find out that life is not a zero-sum game. Just the opposite. Lennart On Dec 9, 2016 04:09, "Alain Sepeda" wrote: > the mentality of Chinese people is very capitalist at local level, and > also more family than individual oriented. > However at the political level they seems more imperial, and abroad they > tolerate the local authorities, even local criminality as long as it is not > impairing business... > It is a mix we have problem to understand in the West. > In a way I see a similar misunderstanding between French culture > considering US way. It is hard to see in france that US solidarity is more > group/community driven than state driven, even if things are changing (and > many disagree, in both countries). > > The "policy mix" of a culture is surprising for another culture. > In China "capitalism" is more popular in poling than in france and even in > USA. > > french are more negative than people of irak about their future... > > Note that China may not be globally capitalist, more Mercantilist or > Colbertist as we say in france (Crony too)... Not so different from US-way > in foreign trade, with huge state implication in business to protect > installed players. > However both US and China (more China) unlike France, have a very strong > local free capitalism with huge competition. > > 2016-12-08 22:26 GMT+01:00 Chris Zell : > >> China is the nation to watch as to Communism. I understand that it sees >> capitalist methods as useful on a path to Communism and has never given up >> on this idea. If they can hold back corruption, they may continue with >> the Party being dominant over all corporate forces (unlike the US in which >> it is the other way around). >> >> >> >> Communism is mostly about developing and maintaining enough resources to >> be easily shared. If abundance can be created technologically, there could >> be a withering away of the state. Think about what free energy, future 3-D >> printing and digital currencies could accomplish. We already have an >> enormous resource of free information at our fingertips – that frustrates >> centralized media and governance. Who knows what follows next? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
the mentality of Chinese people is very capitalist at local level, and also more family than individual oriented. However at the political level they seems more imperial, and abroad they tolerate the local authorities, even local criminality as long as it is not impairing business... It is a mix we have problem to understand in the West. In a way I see a similar misunderstanding between French culture considering US way. It is hard to see in france that US solidarity is more group/community driven than state driven, even if things are changing (and many disagree, in both countries). The "policy mix" of a culture is surprising for another culture. In China "capitalism" is more popular in poling than in france and even in USA. french are more negative than people of irak about their future... Note that China may not be globally capitalist, more Mercantilist or Colbertist as we say in france (Crony too)... Not so different from US-way in foreign trade, with huge state implication in business to protect installed players. However both US and China (more China) unlike France, have a very strong local free capitalism with huge competition. 2016-12-08 22:26 GMT+01:00 Chris Zell : > China is the nation to watch as to Communism. I understand that it sees > capitalist methods as useful on a path to Communism and has never given up > on this idea. If they can hold back corruption, they may continue with > the Party being dominant over all corporate forces (unlike the US in which > it is the other way around). > > > > Communism is mostly about developing and maintaining enough resources to > be easily shared. If abundance can be created technologically, there could > be a withering away of the state. Think about what free energy, future 3-D > printing and digital currencies could accomplish. We already have an > enormous resource of free information at our fingertips – that frustrates > centralized media and governance. Who knows what follows next? > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
For another solution see my letter to the DelcoTimes. Real change is needed to end this mess http://www.delcotimes.com/opinion/20161205/letter-to-the-editor-real-change-is-needed-to-end-this-mess On 12/8/2016 4:26 PM, Chris Zell wrote: China is the nation to watch as to Communism. I understand that it sees capitalist methods as useful on a path to Communism and has never given up on this idea. If they can hold back corruption, they may continue with the Party being dominant over all corporate forces (unlike the US in which it is the other way around). Communism is mostly about developing and maintaining enough resources to be easily shared. If abundance can be created technologically, there could be a withering away of the state. Think about what free energy, future 3-D printing and digital currencies could accomplish. We already have an enormous resource of free information at our fingertips – that frustrates centralized media and governance. Who knows what follows next?
RE: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
China is the nation to watch as to Communism. I understand that it sees capitalist methods as useful on a path to Communism and has never given up on this idea. If they can hold back corruption, they may continue with the Party being dominant over all corporate forces (unlike the US in which it is the other way around). Communism is mostly about developing and maintaining enough resources to be easily shared. If abundance can be created technologically, there could be a withering away of the state. Think about what free energy, future 3-D printing and digital currencies could accomplish. We already have an enormous resource of free information at our fingertips – that frustrates centralized media and governance. Who knows what follows next?
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Communism is a wonderful system for saintly men, Religious orders have used this system for centuries to great effect and benefit. The problem with the system arises when imperfect men are involved in the system. The system can be used to enslave and to dehumanize. Controlling imperfect men are a unsolved problem that no system has yet been invented to solve. On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 5:59 PM, Che wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Lennart Thornros > wrote: > >> Che >> What else. do you know? >> I guarantee that I have seen more of communism than you. >> I guess what you meant was you have no argument. >> Lennart >> > > What's it like to be a senile old fart, Lennart? > > > > > >> >> On Dec 6, 2016 23:25, "Che" wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Lennart Thornros >>> wrote: >>> Che you hit the wrong guy. The bureaucracy cannot take any thing from me except my pension. They try but . . . You believe in an idea almost 200 years old andays refuse to see that communism has failed since the 1850is . That is doing the same thing over aND over again. . .. Move to Venezuela. Lennartout >>> >>> >>> Speak about things you actually understand. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 6, 2016 18:32, "Che" wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Lennart Thornros > wrote: > >> Che, >> Venezuela, Cuba! >> How about accepting bygones, live today and plan for the future. >> Have a goal. >> Maybe moving to Venezuela could be yours? Bring some food as they >> are starving. If you like the system , well then I suppose food is a >> minor >> problem. >> > > Blah, blah blah I'll wait to see what you have to say when the > looming next stage of the World financial crisis loots your 'wealth'. > > > > >> Lennart >> >> On Dec 6, 2016 18:04, "Che" wrote: >> >> >> The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT >> automation. >> >> No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. >> Opinions to the contrary are worthless. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: >> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to >>> -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html >>> >>> Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience >>> >>> The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. >>> >>> http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm >>> >>> Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a >>> year. What will Trump do about this new automation threat? >>> >> >> >> > >>> >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Che I am impressed. You have the solution to implement Marxism and you are a remote medical guru. I'd say you probably should taste your own medicine. As there are few evidence you even have a solid argument. Try Venezuela. I meet people daily with experience from there visitors and people leaving long term living there. Lennart On Dec 7, 2016 19:01, "Che" wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Lennart Thornros > wrote: > >> Che >> What else. do you know? >> I guarantee that I have seen more of communism than you. >> I guess what you meant was you have no argument. >> Lennart >> > > What's it like to be a senile old fart, Lennart? > > > > > >> >> On Dec 6, 2016 23:25, "Che" wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Lennart Thornros >>> wrote: >>> Che you hit the wrong guy. The bureaucracy cannot take any thing from me except my pension. They try but . . . You believe in an idea almost 200 years old andays refuse to see that communism has failed since the 1850is . That is doing the same thing over aND over again. . .. Move to Venezuela. Lennartout >>> >>> >>> Speak about things you actually understand. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 6, 2016 18:32, "Che" wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Lennart Thornros > wrote: > >> Che, >> Venezuela, Cuba! >> How about accepting bygones, live today and plan for the future. >> Have a goal. >> Maybe moving to Venezuela could be yours? Bring some food as they >> are starving. If you like the system , well then I suppose food is a >> minor >> problem. >> > > Blah, blah blah I'll wait to see what you have to say when the > looming next stage of the World financial crisis loots your 'wealth'. > > > > >> Lennart >> >> On Dec 6, 2016 18:04, "Che" wrote: >> >> >> The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT >> automation. >> >> No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. >> Opinions to the contrary are worthless. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: >> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to >>> -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html >>> >>> Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience >>> >>> The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. >>> >>> http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm >>> >>> Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a >>> year. What will Trump do about this new automation threat? >>> >> >> >> > >>> >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
The 2 might intersect, but one of them will ignore your arguments. You won't be causing any trouble, just wasting your energy. 2016-12-07 23:13 GMT-02:00 Che : > > > I don't shy away from trouble. Ask the local deathsquad. >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
To have an educated opinion from someone in contact with poors in emerging countries, I advise this article, and moer generally to follows Hernando De Soto http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hernando-de-soto/piketty-wrong-third-world_b_6751634.html globally my position, inspired by a personal experience from western socialized society to emerging country is that the problem is not capitalisme, but lack of real free capitalism, and weak state of law. In Egypt, half of what was said to be wages, salaries, in Egypt statistics after some There is no problem about robots if the worker can own a robot. It should happen as the robots will be made by robots thus will be cheap. problems is that in many place, even USA, what de Soto called mercantilism, what some call Crony capitalism, what french call Colbertism, is the reality of pretended capitalism. Why a taxi should be afraid of losing his job if he can make his taxi work for him, and why not buy many taxi to transport many more clients for the same budget as before, but without much work ? As I understand the price of things is simply the price of work, even if the currency change around that reality (not the opposite). Energy is work, biased by taxes imposed by monopolies like when you pay oil to someone who did not cook it few millions years ago. anyway if you buy oil to the emirs, this mean that for you it saves work to make oil from whale oil or from corn. The price you pay to the emirs is just below the price of that work you don't pay. I'm not afraid of AI, my latest AI is made by two great inventors, me and my wife, and the training phase is a job in itself... much more difficult than programming, but in fact most humans are OK with that competence. Programmes will lose their jobs, but will become just professors. the horse never put slaves on the dole, it just allowed them to be independent farmers. capitalism for all, this is the new utopia. Not easy as everywhere the lobbies of incumbent try to exploit government to shelter them from competition and poors who organized to innovate. PS: I'm just typeproofing a testimony of a tapol (Communist/leftist political prIsoners of Soeharto US backed regime in indonesia) exiled in Buru island... The irony is that the island was managed like a soviet farm, forced to make rice with no freedom ... around 72 (after some escaped following a murder of a guardian, later attributed to a battle between guardians who trafficked wood pieces) there was a reform and they allowed, like in USSR or in popular China, some private business, some currency usage , beside the soviet economy of rice as decided by the ministers. It worked and they ate better, even if the prisoner was moaning some get richer because of lucky positions... Hard to explain to someone devoted to communisme whose life was runed by pretended capitalism system, that he was starved in a communist prison system, by a crony capitalist government, and he could only eat better when it became more entrepreneur-friendly and accepted inequality rise... 2016-12-07 23:39 GMT+01:00 Daniel Rocha : > It's a waste of time to argue with those with petite bourgeois mentality, > at least in Marxist terms, that's what I mean. > > 2016-12-07 16:12 GMT-02:00 Che : > >> >> I don't even know what you getting at, fella. >> >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: > You will certain not prevail in this media. Let me tell you something. In > my country, Brazil, evangelicals were suppressed or ridiculed by the > catholic church and mainstream media. But, John Pope II made the grave > mistake of alienating the popular movement of the church that helped bring > down the military dictatorship. What happened is that evangelicals seized > the opportunity to grab a lot Catholics, despite all contrary pressure from > the media. > > The point is that you should get a distance from middle class and target > the poor. Forget the 1% complaints, focus on the lower 10% against the rest > (that is obviously much more difficult in developed countries, since on > these you have a much stronger "safety net"). Eventually, you will reach a > larger base. > I have a life -- a political life -- outside of an interest in the likes of Cold Fusion (I hate the cowardly 'LENR' euphemism -- however 'more accurate' it is). Socialism is the real goal for Humanity -- whatever petit-bourgeois boobs here opine. The two intersect -- and always will. Whatever they believe. I've clearly and logically stated as much. I don't shy away from trouble. Ask the local deathsquad. > > > 2016-12-07 20:58 GMT-02:00 Che : > >> >> >> The immediate problem is that such social types usually intend to get the >> last word... because there's an audience. So it's not really possible in >> this totalitarian society to simply assert inconvenient truths about >> Capitalism -- and posit the alternative -- without being attacked. >> >> >>
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
You will certain not prevail in this media. Let me tell you something. In my country, Brazil, evangelicals were suppressed or ridiculed by the catholic church and mainstream media. But, John Pope II made the grave mistake of alienating the popular movement of the church that helped bring down the military dictatorship. What happened is that evangelicals seized the opportunity to grab a lot Catholics, despite all contrary pressure from the media. The point is that you should get a distance from middle class and target the poor. Forget the 1% complaints, focus on the lower 10% against the rest (that is obviously much more difficult in developed countries, since on these you have a much stronger "safety net"). Eventually, you will reach a larger base. 2016-12-07 20:58 GMT-02:00 Che : > > > The immediate problem is that such social types usually intend to get the > last word... because there's an audience. So it's not really possible in > this totalitarian society to simply assert inconvenient truths about > Capitalism -- and posit the alternative -- without being attacked. > > >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Lennart Thornros wrote: > Che > What else. do you know? > I guarantee that I have seen more of communism than you. > I guess what you meant was you have no argument. > Lennart > What's it like to be a senile old fart, Lennart? > > On Dec 6, 2016 23:25, "Che" wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Lennart Thornros >> wrote: >> >>> Che you hit the wrong guy. The bureaucracy cannot take any thing from >>> me except my pension. They try but . . . >>> You believe in an idea almost 200 years old andays refuse to see that >>> communism has failed since the 1850is . That is doing the same thing over >>> aND over again. . .. Move to Venezuela. >>> Lennartout >>> >> >> >> Speak about things you actually understand. >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On Dec 6, 2016 18:32, "Che" wrote: >>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Lennart Thornros wrote: > Che, > Venezuela, Cuba! > How about accepting bygones, live today and plan for the future. > Have a goal. > Maybe moving to Venezuela could be yours? Bring some food as they are > starving. If you like the system , well then I suppose food is a minor > problem. > Blah, blah blah I'll wait to see what you have to say when the looming next stage of the World financial crisis loots your 'wealth'. > Lennart > > On Dec 6, 2016 18:04, "Che" wrote: > > > The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT > automation. > > No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. > Opinions to the contrary are worthless. > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to >> -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html >> >> Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience >> >> The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. >> >> http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm >> >> Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a >> year. What will Trump do about this new automation threat? >> > > > >>
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Che What else. do you know? I guarantee that I have seen more of communism than you. I guess what you meant was you have no argument. Lennart On Dec 6, 2016 23:25, "Che" wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Lennart Thornros > wrote: > >> Che you hit the wrong guy. The bureaucracy cannot take any thing from me >> except my pension. They try but . . . >> You believe in an idea almost 200 years old andays refuse to see that >> communism has failed since the 1850is . That is doing the same thing over >> aND over again. . .. Move to Venezuela. >> Lennartout >> > > > Speak about things you actually understand. > > > > >> >> On Dec 6, 2016 18:32, "Che" wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Lennart Thornros >>> wrote: >>> Che, Venezuela, Cuba! How about accepting bygones, live today and plan for the future. Have a goal. Maybe moving to Venezuela could be yours? Bring some food as they are starving. If you like the system , well then I suppose food is a minor problem. >>> >>> Blah, blah blah I'll wait to see what you have to say when the >>> looming next stage of the World financial crisis loots your 'wealth'. >>> >>> >>> >>> Lennart On Dec 6, 2016 18:04, "Che" wrote: The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT automation. No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. Opinions to the contrary are worthless. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to > -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html > > Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience > > The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. > > http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm > > Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a > year. What will Trump do about this new automation threat? > >>> >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote: > It's a waste of time to argue with those with petite bourgeois mentality, > at least in Marxist terms, that's what I mean. > The immediate problem is that such social types usually intend to get the last word... because there's an audience. So it's not really possible in this totalitarian society to simply assert inconvenient truths about Capitalism -- and posit the alternative -- without being attacked. I wonder what that sounds like, eh..? > > > 2016-12-07 16:12 GMT-02:00 Che : > >> >> I don't even know what you getting at, fella. >> >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
It's a waste of time to argue with those with petite bourgeois mentality, at least in Marxist terms, that's what I mean. 2016-12-07 16:12 GMT-02:00 Che : > > I don't even know what you getting at, fella. >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Daniel Rocha wrote: > Che, you are barking on the wrong trees. I think it would be better to > find a better tree. Like me :P > I don't even know what you getting at, fella. Stick to Cold Fusion, eh? It's a subject we all share and know precious little about, here -- not unlike the naive-yet-vociferous politix we have to witness on occasion. However, when people here inevitably bring up the relationship of new teknology to Human society, discussion invariably comes up against the very real limits of capitalist organizational capabilities. I note this limitation (a limitation based in ideology and propaganda and ignorance) -- and explain what can certainly be the ONLY possible solution to this pressing issue. Your nay-saying OTOH is simply pure hubristic, smug ignorance of all that. In actual fact -- you're only aiding the oligarchs and their minions in maintaining their control over Humanity. I thought Cold Fusion was about setting Humanity free. Nothing free about the way Capitalism sits on our collective sleeping chests, like some parasitic Succubus. > > > 2016-12-07 1:23 GMT-02:00 Che : > >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Lennart Thornros >> wrote: >> >>> Che you hit the wrong guy. The bureaucracy cannot take any thing from >>> me except my pension. They try but . . . >>> You believe in an idea almost 200 years old andays refuse to see that >>> communism has failed since the 1850is . That is doing the same thing over >>> aND over again. . .. Move to Venezuela. >>> Lennartout >>> >> >> >>
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Che, you are barking on the wrong trees. I think it would be better to find a better tree. Like me :P 2016-12-07 1:23 GMT-02:00 Che : > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Lennart Thornros > wrote: > >> Che you hit the wrong guy. The bureaucracy cannot take any thing from me >> except my pension. They try but . . . >> You believe in an idea almost 200 years old andays refuse to see that >> communism has failed since the 1850is . That is doing the same thing over >> aND over again. . .. Move to Venezuela. >> Lennartout >> > > >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Lennart Thornros wrote: > Che you hit the wrong guy. The bureaucracy cannot take any thing from me > except my pension. They try but . . . > You believe in an idea almost 200 years old andays refuse to see that > communism has failed since the 1850is . That is doing the same thing over > aND over again. . .. Move to Venezuela. > Lennartout > Speak about things you actually understand. > > On Dec 6, 2016 18:32, "Che" wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Lennart Thornros >> wrote: >> >>> Che, >>> Venezuela, Cuba! >>> How about accepting bygones, live today and plan for the future. >>> Have a goal. >>> Maybe moving to Venezuela could be yours? Bring some food as they are >>> starving. If you like the system , well then I suppose food is a minor >>> problem. >>> >> >> Blah, blah blah I'll wait to see what you have to say when the >> looming next stage of the World financial crisis loots your 'wealth'. >> >> >> >> >>> Lennart >>> >>> On Dec 6, 2016 18:04, "Che" wrote: >>> >>> >>> The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT >>> automation. >>> >>> No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. >>> Opinions to the contrary are worthless. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a year. What will Trump do about this new automation threat? >>> >>> >>> >>
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Che you hit the wrong guy. The bureaucracy cannot take any thing from me except my pension. They try but . . . You believe in an idea almost 200 years old andays refuse to see that communism has failed since the 1850is . That is doing the same thing over aND over again. . .. Move to Venezuela. Lennart On Dec 6, 2016 18:32, "Che" wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Lennart Thornros > wrote: > >> Che, >> Venezuela, Cuba! >> How about accepting bygones, live today and plan for the future. >> Have a goal. >> Maybe moving to Venezuela could be yours? Bring some food as they are >> starving. If you like the system , well then I suppose food is a minor >> problem. >> > > Blah, blah blah I'll wait to see what you have to say when the looming > next stage of the World financial crisis loots your 'wealth'. > > > > >> Lennart >> >> On Dec 6, 2016 18:04, "Che" wrote: >> >> >> The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT >> automation. >> >> No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. >> Opinions to the contrary are worthless. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: >> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to >>> -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html >>> >>> Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience >>> >>> The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. >>> >>> http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm >>> >>> Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a year. >>> What will Trump do about this new automation threat? >>> >> >> >> >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Lennart Thornros wrote: > Che, > Venezuela, Cuba! > How about accepting bygones, live today and plan for the future. > Have a goal. > Maybe moving to Venezuela could be yours? Bring some food as they are > starving. If you like the system , well then I suppose food is a minor > problem. > Blah, blah blah I'll wait to see what you have to say when the looming next stage of the World financial crisis loots your 'wealth'. > Lennart > > On Dec 6, 2016 18:04, "Che" wrote: > > > The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT > automation. > > No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. > Opinions to the contrary are worthless. > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to >> -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html >> >> Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience >> >> The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. >> >> http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm >> >> Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a year. >> What will Trump do about this new automation threat? >> > > >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Che, Venezuela, Cuba! How about accepting bygones, live today and plan for the future. Have a goal. Maybe moving to Venezuela could be yours? Bring some food as they are starving. If you like the system , well then I suppose food is a minor problem. Lennart On Dec 6, 2016 18:04, "Che" wrote: The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT automation. No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. Opinions to the contrary are worthless. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to > -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html > > Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience > > The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. > > http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm > > Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a year. > What will Trump do about this new automation threat? >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
The problem remains the *capitalist* organization of society. NOT automation. No capitalists are EVER going to fix it. That's a job for Socialism. Opinions to the contrary are worthless. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 2:01 AM, Axil Axil wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to > -cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html > > Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience > > The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. > > http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm > > Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a year. > What will Trump do about this new automation threat? >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Axil Axil wrote: your cell phone can be controlled from anywhere by anybody > Well, not anybody. It often takes an expert, depending on the technique. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
your cell phone can be controlled from anywhere by anybody https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGUR6kao9ys The hacker can watch where you go and hear what you say. They can see what you buy, and do what you can do like banking. On Tue, Dec 6, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > > And of course it can read the RfID chip in your credit card as well, so >> there's no real need to even pause -- you'll (eventually) automatically pay >> for everything in your cart simply by leaving the store. >> > > That is what is shown in the IBM ad. That is the goal. > > > >> And of course anyone in the area with the right kind of equipment >> (stashed in a briefcase, in their pocket, or in the van parked outside) can >> read your credit card info too, as well as obtaining a list of everything >> you bought. > > > That is a legitimate concern, but I think that can be prevented. RFiD tags > are already in use, and there are security concerns already. For example, > trucks loaded with designer clothes could be detected by the methods you > describe. The reader technology is being developed with security in mind. I > think you will have to be authorized with a password to get into the > database of RFiD codes or to operate equipment. > > In the early days of ATM machines and electronic credit card readers > people raised similar legitimate concerns. They were addressed, with > considerable effort and ingenuity. I am not saying security is easy. > > Note also that anyone can now get a list of most of the things you bought > by taking a photo of the shopping cart in the store. We do not have perfect > security. > > Vans parked in parking lots engaged in nefarious digital crimes are not > unheard of. A few years ago a band of high tech thieves parked at night in > front of stores such as Target and tapped into wifi and digital > transmissions of credit card transactions. I don't know how they did it, > but they stole a lot of money. A policewoman caught them early in the > morning and arrested them. I guess for trespassing. I gather she did not > know what they were up to but they seemed suspicious. The reporter said > something like, "she figured they were not playing video games at three in > the morning in a van full of equipment." > > > >> And they can probably backtrack it to you, so they know who you are, as >> well as what you're buying. "Only works in the near-field of the card" ... >> but how "near" is "near"? > > > 1 m or 12 m depending on the type of RFiD tag. The ones used for grocery > products would need a short range. Otherwise, someone walking by the store > eating a banana may be accidentally charged for it. There were problems > like that with some of the early bar code readers, with tags that got stuck > to shopping carts. > > I am sure the credit card and license RFiD tags will be encoded and > secured. The CIA or the Mafia may be able to break into them but I doubt > ordinary street punk hackers will. There have been tremendous security > problems with the Internet and Russian mobs and whatnot. The Internet was > not designed for security, and retrofitting it has been a nightmare. I do > not think the next big technology will be rolled out with similar built in > weaknesses. As I said, ATMs were not. > > - Jed > >
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: > Bleagh. With every reduction in the number of "clicks" needed to buy > something things get less secure. Not true. The new EMV debit and credit cards are way more secure. No more clicks than before, but way more secure. But boy are they slow to transact! It's like we are back in 1990 again. I almost expect to hear a 1200 BAUD dial up modem connect, with a sound like a duck choking on a kazoo, as Dave Barry put it. And then the vendors can say "OMG we totally didn't see this coming! These > security problems were entirely unexpected!" Believe me, they don't say that kind of thing any more. 40 years ago maybe they did, but there have been way too many lawsuits and billions of dollars stolen since then. (I should explain that 40 years ago I was working for one of those vendors, writing technical manuals for the equipment. That's how I know about some of the early equipment headaches and security issues.) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: And of course it can read the RfID chip in your credit card as well, so > there's no real need to even pause -- you'll (eventually) automatically pay > for everything in your cart simply by leaving the store. > That is what is shown in the IBM ad. That is the goal. > And of course anyone in the area with the right kind of equipment (stashed > in a briefcase, in their pocket, or in the van parked outside) can read > your credit card info too, as well as obtaining a list of everything you > bought. That is a legitimate concern, but I think that can be prevented. RFiD tags are already in use, and there are security concerns already. For example, trucks loaded with designer clothes could be detected by the methods you describe. The reader technology is being developed with security in mind. I think you will have to be authorized with a password to get into the database of RFiD codes or to operate equipment. In the early days of ATM machines and electronic credit card readers people raised similar legitimate concerns. They were addressed, with considerable effort and ingenuity. I am not saying security is easy. Note also that anyone can now get a list of most of the things you bought by taking a photo of the shopping cart in the store. We do not have perfect security. Vans parked in parking lots engaged in nefarious digital crimes are not unheard of. A few years ago a band of high tech thieves parked at night in front of stores such as Target and tapped into wifi and digital transmissions of credit card transactions. I don't know how they did it, but they stole a lot of money. A policewoman caught them early in the morning and arrested them. I guess for trespassing. I gather she did not know what they were up to but they seemed suspicious. The reporter said something like, "she figured they were not playing video games at three in the morning in a van full of equipment." > And they can probably backtrack it to you, so they know who you are, as > well as what you're buying. "Only works in the near-field of the card" ... > but how "near" is "near"? 1 m or 12 m depending on the type of RFiD tag. The ones used for grocery products would need a short range. Otherwise, someone walking by the store eating a banana may be accidentally charged for it. There were problems like that with some of the early bar code readers, with tags that got stuck to shopping carts. I am sure the credit card and license RFiD tags will be encoded and secured. The CIA or the Mafia may be able to break into them but I doubt ordinary street punk hackers will. There have been tremendous security problems with the Internet and Russian mobs and whatnot. The Internet was not designed for security, and retrofitting it has been a nightmare. I do not think the next big technology will be rolled out with similar built in weaknesses. As I said, ATMs were not. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
And of course it can read the RfID chip in your credit card as well, so there's no real need to even pause -- you'll (eventually) automatically pay for everything in your cart simply by leaving the store. And of course anyone in the area with the right kind of equipment (stashed in a briefcase, in their pocket, or in the van parked outside) can read your credit card info too, as well as obtaining a list of everything you bought. And they can probably backtrack it to you, so they know who you are, as well as what you're buying. "Only works in the near-field of the card" ... but how "near" is "near"? That's like saying "Only works with a heap of sand". How far the "near field" extends depends on the equipment reading it. Most of the spies will just be working to produce more targeted advertising (where the "YUGE" money is) but there will no doubt be some identity thieves as well. And then the vendors can say "OMG we totally didn't see this coming! These security problems were entirely unexpected!" Bleagh. With every reduction in the number of "clicks" needed to buy something things get less secure. On 12/06/2016 10:10 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: This article says that Amazon is using cameras and AI to implement this. IBM and others are working on RfID technology that would make "grab and go" grocery stores much easier to implement. Here is an advertisement showing how this would work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk As you see, the scanner works at a distance and it scans all items simultaneously. A few years ago, RfID tags were still too expensive for grocery items, but the prices were falling rapidly. I think this system is inevitable. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:more jobs are going away
This article says that Amazon is using cameras and AI to implement this. IBM and others are working on RfID technology that would make "grab and go" grocery stores much easier to implement. Here is an advertisement showing how this would work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk As you see, the scanner works at a distance and it scans all items simultaneously. A few years ago, RfID tags were still too expensive for grocery items, but the prices were falling rapidly. I think this system is inevitable. - Jed
[Vo]:more jobs are going away
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/technology/amazon-moves-to-cut-checkout-line-promoting-a-grab-and-go-experience.html Amazon Moves to Cut Checkout Line, Promoting a Grab-and-Go Experience The millions of jobs working the checkout lines are going to go away. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/sales/cashiers.htm Upto 3.5 million jobs are on the cutting block payung about 20K a year. What will Trump do about this new automation threat?
