Re: Sprain Mag Motor
I found the following KeelyNet reference to Sprain's motor. You will notice that he is referred to as Paul Harry Sprain, not Harry Paul Sprain as in the Wiki article and the patent. Sprain seems to be a remarkably uncommon name. It is probably a corruption of Strain. 8-) http://www.freshpatents.com/Apparatus-and-process-for- generating-energy-dt20060209ptan20060028080.php 02/28/06 - Overunity magnet motor claim This is the first OVERUNITY magnet motor released to the public! It produces more mechanical power than needed electrical input power for the electromagnet. It is the video from Mr. Paul Harry Sprain. I had signed NDA for it and now he has released it to the world! It is simular to the Takahaski design and Mr. Sprain has got a patent for it. The electromagnet at the end of the spiral stator switches for just a few Mikroseconds the field to zero flux density, so the rotor can escape the stator fields. For the rest of the rotation circle the rotor is purely accelerated into the track. All magnets are in attraction mode, stator and rotor magnets ! This is so far the best magnet motor shown. Mr. Sprain wrote: I have been working on this project for 4 years. I have spent a little under a million dollars. I have a patent and a working prototype (see attached photos). The rotational force is measured using a torque sensor that allows me to put it under load just like a real generat! or. I have measured the energy going into the electromagnet voltage and current. It comes from a digital power supply so there is no guessing as to what is being used. I'm using a super perm alloy core for the electromagnet. A digital encoder controls the firing of the electromagnet. My results: out-.6 Nm at 10 radian/sec =6W in-19.8v @ 1.9A = 37.62W each pulse is .028ms = 1.05 W per pulse 3 pulses per/sec = 3.1W total input. Please see patent 6,954,019. Some additional info about this remarkable claim. For more details on the Takahashi magnetic spiral motor. There is also a photo and diagram accompanying the above text at: http://www.keelynet.com/ Frank
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
It would appear that the Achilles heel of magnetic motors in general is that they are using up energy stored in the magnets in the form of negative entropy - in other words in the parallel orientation of the basic units of magnetism, whatever these may be. For people who have a naturally pessimistic outlook on life this is an attractive argument. It allows magnetic motors to be dismissed together with perpetual motion machines and cold fusion, etc. Since the majority of attempts to make a magnetic engine seem to have run into the sand such pessimists can assert that history is on their side. It is claimed that the Sprain Magnetic Motor, ... is very similar to the Takahashi motor, but in Paul Sprain´s motor he is just using all magnets in attraction mode, so they never discharge. I believe that I can see a reasonable argument to support this claim based on the existence of negative energy (see Negative Energy thread). Consider the mode of operation of The Newcomen Steam Engine. http://www.technology.niagarac.on.ca/staff/mcsele/newcomen.htm A laymen might describe it as a vacuum engine and think that the vacuum pulls the piston down into the cylinder. Anyone with an elementary knowledge of physics, however, would realise that the piston is pushed down by atmospheric pressure. Though the Newcomen and the Watt engine both use steam, their modes of operation are antithetical. Now the active agent in the Newcomen Engine is the pressure of the atmosphere and this pressure is constantly being replenished. It is inexhaustible. By contrast, the active agent in the Watt engine is the pressure of steam and this pressure is not inexhaustible. With reference to the Negative Energy thread one can see that the Newcomen steam engine is a negative energy engine analogous to a Stirling Engine driven by an ice cube whereas the Watt steam engine is a positive energy engine analogous to a Stirling Engine driven by a cup of hot coffee. The attraction between magnets in the Sprain Magnetic Motor (SMM) can be viewed as Bernoulli style low pressure region in the Beta-atmosphere. Clearly then, the SMM is analogous to the Newcomen Engine and the Beta-atmosphere analogous to the Alpha-atmosphere and equally inexhaustible. Since the microscopic units of each SMM magnet are being subjected to tension it seems more likely that the negative entropy of those magnets (internal order) will increase rather than decrease. It seems therefor that the claim that this is indeed the case can be justified on logical grounds. Whether this too good to be true motor is in fact raising high order atmospheric motion (Beta-.Gamma-) up to the electro mechanical level or not, remains to be seen. However, it can (and will) be shown by argument at a higher scale of aethereal atmosphere that such a system is no more a perpetual motion machine than, say, a photo- voltaic cell. Cheers, Frank Grimer
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
It's even better than the inventor thinks: .028ms * 37.62W = 1.05mJ per pulse, 3 pulses per sec = 3.1mW input, quite reasonable for 6W output ;) Just kidding, obviously he meant, per pulse, 0.28s instead of 0.28ms and 1.05J instead of 1.05 W. More annoying is the inconsistency of the 10 radian/sec figure (about 1.6 turn/sec) with the 3 pulses/sec: there is supposed to be 1 pulse per turn so it should be 1.6 pulse/sec. I hope he has been more rigorous than that in computing his energy balance but I wouldn't bet a million dollars on it, I'd rather bet them on cold fusion if I had them, how funny that the boring reasonable guys on this list are the pro-CF people ;) Michel - Original Message - From: Grimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 1:36 PM Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor I found the following KeelyNet reference to Sprain's motor. You will notice that he is referred to as Paul Harry Sprain, not Harry Paul Sprain as in the Wiki article and the patent. Sprain seems to be a remarkably uncommon name. It is probably a corruption of Strain. 8-) http://www.freshpatents.com/Apparatus-and-process-for- generating-energy-dt20060209ptan20060028080.php 02/28/06 - Overunity magnet motor claim This is the first OVERUNITY magnet motor released to the public! It produces more mechanical power than needed electrical input power for the electromagnet. It is the video from Mr. Paul Harry Sprain. I had signed NDA for it and now he has released it to the world! It is simular to the Takahaski design and Mr. Sprain has got a patent for it. The electromagnet at the end of the spiral stator switches for just a few Mikroseconds the field to zero flux density, so the rotor can escape the stator fields. For the rest of the rotation circle the rotor is purely accelerated into the track. All magnets are in attraction mode, stator and rotor magnets ! This is so far the best magnet motor shown. Mr. Sprain wrote: I have been working on this project for 4 years. I have spent a little under a million dollars. I have a patent and a working prototype (see attached photos). The rotational force is measured using a torque sensor that allows me to put it under load just like a real generat! or. I have measured the energy going into the electromagnet voltage and current. It comes from a digital power supply so there is no guessing as to what is being used. I'm using a super perm alloy core for the electromagnet. A digital encoder controls the firing of the electromagnet. My results: out-.6 Nm at 10 radian/sec =6W in-19.8v @ 1.9A = 37.62W each pulse is .028ms = 1.05 W per pulse 3 pulses per/sec = 3.1W total input. Please see patent 6,954,019. Some additional info about this remarkable claim. For more details on the Takahashi magnetic spiral motor. There is also a photo and diagram accompanying the above text at: http://www.keelynet.com/ Frank
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: Michel Jullian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 16:05:37 +0100 Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor It's even better than the inventor thinks: .028ms * 37.62W = 1.05mJ per pulse, 3 pulses per sec = 3.1mW input, quite reasonable for 6W output ;) Just kidding, obviously he meant, per pulse, 0.28s instead of 0.28ms and 1.05J instead of 1.05 W. snippage Paul is often a little sloppy with his terminology. He forgets to use the proper units. The pulse duration is not .028 ms, it's .028 s. For those remaining sceptics, I have finished reviewing additional data (subject to my NDA) and I would stake my reputation (FWIW g) that there is no measurement error. EMILIE *has* a COP 1. Terry Blanton, BEE, PE ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: hohlrauml6d Paul is often a little sloppy with his terminology. He forgets to use the proper units. The pulse duration is not .028 ms, it's .028 s. Damn, I didn't finish the post. Why does the brain degrade so quickly after reaching 50? I meant to add that Paul meant 1.05 Watt-seconds, a measure of energy equal to 1.05 Joule. It is usually considered polite to capitalize the units which represent a name. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
On Mar 2, 2006, at 7:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: hohlrauml6d Paul is often a little sloppy with his terminology. He forgets to use the proper units. The pulse duration is not .028 ms, it's .028 s. Damn, I didn't finish the post. Why does the brain degrade so quickly after reaching 50? I meant to add that Paul meant 1.05 Watt-seconds, a measure of energy equal to 1.05 Joule. It is usually considered polite to capitalize the units which represent a name. Surprisingly to many, this is not so. When a scientist's name reaches the exalted state of being used as a unit, then when spelled out in that usage it is no longer capitalized. This non- capitalization rule is in itself an honor, designating the use of an international standard. However, the name is still capitalized in the abbreviation. Consider the following SI units and their abbreviations: hertz Hz newton N Pascal Pa joule J watt W coulomb C volt V ohm (capital omega) siemens S farad F tesla T weber Wb henry H becquerel Bq gray Gy sievert Sv and some ordinary SI units: lumen lm lux lx radian rad steradian sr Horace Heffner
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: Horace Heffner Surprisingly to many, this is not so. When a scientist's name reaches the exalted state of being used as a unit, then when spelled out in that usage it is no longer capitalized. This non-capitalization rule is in itself an honor, designating the use of an international standard. However, the name is still capitalized in the abbreviation. You are right as usual. I actually did spell them out didn't I? g Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
At 11:32 am 02/03/2006 -0900, you wrote: On Mar 2, 2006, at 7:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: hohlrauml6d Paul is often a little sloppy with his terminology. He forgets to use the proper units. The pulse duration is not .028 ms, it's .028 s. Damn, I didn't finish the post. Why does the brain degrade so quickly after reaching 50? I meant to add that Paul meant 1.05 Watt-seconds, a measure of energy equal to 1.05 Joule. It is usually considered polite to capitalize the units which represent a name. Surprisingly to many, this is not so. When a scientist's name reaches the exalted state of being used as a unit, then when spelled out in that usage it is no longer capitalized. This non- capitalization rule is in itself an honor, designating the use of an international standard. However, the name is still capitalized in the abbreviation. Consider the following SI units and their abbreviations: hertz Hz newton N Pascal Pa joule J watt W coulomb C volt V ohm (capital omega) siemens S farad F tesla T weber Wb henry H becquerel Bq gray Gy sievert Sv and some ordinary SI units: lumen lm lux lx radian rad steradian sr Horace Heffner Personally, I find this canonization of scientists bloody annoying. As a protest I always write Centigrade instead of Celsius. At least with a unit like a lumen or lux, you know it has something to do with light - and a radian relates to a radius - but names like gray and sievert convey absolutely nothing to me. At least you yanks have stuck to the imperial system of weights and measures for common usage and not adopted the froggy metric - yet. ;-) Frank (even my spell checker didn't recognise sievert)
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
And a good thing you're all coming to froggy metric too ;) Horace good point again, but why shouldn't Pascal deserve the honor of de-capitalization like everybody else? As a fellow froggy, I resent this discrimination ;) Since we are discussing conventions, I have noticed that some of you usually write below earlier messages, I used to do the same for obvious chronological reasons, and also because I thought it was more polite, but a blind man once taught me that this was very bad for blind people who read their list messages via text to speech applications: they have to listen to all the old stuff they already know about before getting to the new bit. All email clients should have a setting for answering above quoted text by default, maybe we could adopt this convention? Michel - Original Message - From: Grimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 1:07 AM Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor At 11:32 am 02/03/2006 -0900, you wrote: On Mar 2, 2006, at 7:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: hohlrauml6d Paul is often a little sloppy with his terminology. He forgets to use the proper units. The pulse duration is not .028 ms, it's .028 s. Damn, I didn't finish the post. Why does the brain degrade so quickly after reaching 50? I meant to add that Paul meant 1.05 Watt-seconds, a measure of energy equal to 1.05 Joule. It is usually considered polite to capitalize the units which represent a name. Surprisingly to many, this is not so. When a scientist's name reaches the exalted state of being used as a unit, then when spelled out in that usage it is no longer capitalized. This non- capitalization rule is in itself an honor, designating the use of an international standard. However, the name is still capitalized in the abbreviation. Consider the following SI units and their abbreviations: hertz Hz newton N Pascal Pa joule J watt W coulomb C volt V ohm (capital omega) siemens S farad F tesla T weber Wb henry H becquerel Bq gray Gy sievert Sv and some ordinary SI units: lumen lm lux lx radian rad steradian sr Horace Heffner Personally, I find this canonization of scientists bloody annoying. As a protest I always write Centigrade instead of Celsius. At least with a unit like a lumen or lux, you know it has something to do with light - and a radian relates to a radius - but names like gray and sievert convey absolutely nothing to me. At least you yanks have stuck to the imperial system of weights and measures for common usage and not adopted the froggy metric - yet. ;-) Frank (even my spell checker didn't recognise sievert)
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: Grimer snip elegant analogy I now understand why the thing is so damned big compared to the Kawai/Takahashi motor - and why the rotor arm turns nice and slow - a great help for a doubting Thomas like me for whom seeing is believing. 8-) The slower that the build up can take place, the better. One needs a very large arm (or arms) and a gearing system to drive a generator. Of course, the speed is load dependent also, the vid I posted shows the rotor under load. It spins much faster freewheeling. I think I have an image of the axial generator somewhere. I load that up directly. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
I don't think you can close the loop on 2 Joules per cycle. There are too many inefficiencies in the generation and transformation of the pulse energy. The torque transducer was necessary for the development of EMILIE. This is like a 5th generation prototype. The next step is to create a demostration unit with a COP of 20. Here is an image of the axial flux alternator that I think Paul said he would use in the demonstration unit. http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Axial_flux_alternator.jpg Terry -Original Message- From: Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:53:16 - Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor Wouldn't it be relatively trivial to close the loop on this one - instead of having his $10k torque measurer, why not stick a (cheaper) generator on the shaft feeding a capacitor smoothed power supply for the electromagnet? Far more convincing than possibly dodgy oscilloscope measurements of power in vs power out... Nick Palmer ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: hohlrauml6d Of course, the speed is load dependent also, the vid I posted shows the rotor under load. It spins much faster freewheeling. I think I have an image of the axial generator somewhere. I load that up directly. http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/Axial_flux_alternator.jpg ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
Hey, Paul, look . . . . you made peswiki.com!! Now you're (in)famous! g Terry (Thanks, Frank) -Original Message- From: Grimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 05:54:00 + Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor I notice that there is an interesting article in Wiki on Harry Paul Sprain's magnetic motor. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor Frank ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
Hi Jones and Terry, I am almost always subscribed to vortex-l, but I do not read every post. Magnetic motors are one of my main interests. Terry posted: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/pulse_display.jpg Indicates less that he is inputting less than 1.1 Watt-seconds of electrical energy into the pulse. In 3*Pi radians (1.5 rotations) he has input less than 3.2 Ws (3 pulses) and output around 6 Nm of mechanical energy (1 Nm = 1 Ws = 1 Joule). This is a COP of 1.88. I presume that channel 1 in the scope photo is the voltage waveform. What is the channel two waveform? It looks like the voltage across a current sampling resistor in series with the solenoid. What is the value of the sampling resistor? The mechanical energy output looks more difficult to verify. The only proof of utility that would be convincing is a self runner. Put an efficient permanent magnet generator on the shaft and measure the electrical output as a next step toward a self runner. An electrical to electrical energy comparison would be more convincing. George Holz Varitronics Systems
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: George Holz George: I presume that channel 1 in the scope photo is the voltage waveform. What is the channel two waveform? It looks like the voltage across a current sampling resistor in series with the solenoid. What is the value of the sampling resistor? Terry: No, the input is a current probe: Here are the specs (thanks Keith): http://assets.fluke.com/datasheets/80i-110s-Spexs.pdf Here's a piccy in operation: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/current_probe.JPG George: The mechanical energy output looks more difficult to verify. The only proof of utility that would be convincing is a self runner. Put an efficient permanent magnet generator on the shaft and measure the electrical output as a next step toward a self runner. An electrical to electrical energy comparison would be more convincing. Terry: Agreed on sefl-running. However, he only has about 2 Joules per cycle to play with. His torque measurement device was custom make and the sensor cost him $10k. BTW, for the next iteration, Paul has publicly claimed he hopes to have a COP of 20 with plenty energy to self run and drive an electric load. Where are you located, George? Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: jonfli Just curious as to the calibration/div for the current probe used on Ch2 to arrive at your energy calc above? See the post to George on the probe specs. Does that answer your question? Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
At 01:17 pm 27/02/2006 -0500, you wrote: -Original Message- From: George Holz George:The mechanical energy output looks more difficult to verify. The only proof of utility that would be convincing is a self runner. Put an efficient permanent magnet generator on the shaft and measure the electrical output as a next step toward a self runner. An electrical to electrical energy comparison would be more convincing. Terry: Agreed on sefl-running. However, he only has about 2 Joules per cycle to play with. His torque measurement device was custom make and the sensor cost him $10k. BTW, for the next iteration, Paul has publicly claimed he hopes to have a COP of 20 with plenty energy to self run and drive an electric load. I admire his seflconfidence. ;-) Frank
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
Terry, Yes, thank you. However, the CH2 Mean measurement of 71.3mv isn't accurate because it appears to be 200mv! I assume the probe was set at 0-10A with an output of 10mv/Amp, this makes the input current measurement on CH2 to be 2A Mean. The CH1 voltage measurement seems to indicate the coil is driven from a positive supply thru a P-Channel FET or equiv and the power supply voltage is ~20Vdc judging from the CH1 vertical cal at 4.52v/div!? The pulse width measurements are different between CH1 and CH2 so, taking the longer CH1 duration of 27.5ms, these measurements yield 1.1J/pulse which is somewhat close to your calcs. One thing that bothers me a little is the increase in saturation voltage of the assumed P-Channel FET at the relative low current of ~ 2A so they must be using a small die area device. This could certainly be improved upon. Jon F -Original Message- From: jonfli Just curious as to the calibration/div for the current probe used on Ch2 to arrive at your energy calc above? See the post to George on the probe specs. Does that answer your question? Terry
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: George Holz George: I cannot tell from the picture the range to which the current probe is set. If it is the 10 Amp range , then the 100 mv/amp signal would give an energy per pulse from the scope waveforms essentially equal to your calculation of 1.1 Joules per pulse. This is an appropriate measurement technique and the probe bandwidth should be sufficient for accurate measurement. Please verify the range setting on the probe. Terry: I'll check to see if I have some better images. I'm sure it set correctly since they were willing to show me anything. I was simply so excited that I did not do good due diligence. I am trying to assemble two good men who are willing to evaluate the mechanical and electrical aspects of the device and provide testimony. One forensic electrical engineer has already pretty much agreed. The second mechanical engineer is considering the offer. I am a EE but am too much of a believer to be objective. George: Scaling a device whose OU mechanism is not well understood is extremely difficult. From experience, it is difficult even when the mechanism is fairly well understood. snip George: In central New Jersey, my office is on US Hwy 22 East in Bound Brook. Terry: Let me know if you get near Atlanta any time soon. As they say Whether you go to heaven or hell, you must change planes in Atlanta. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: Grimer I admire his seflconfidence. ;-) :-Þ ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
I'll be going back soon with a better ELECTRICAL Engr. While my degree is in EE, I have been in photonics so long I don't trust my oscilloscope capabilities any more -- especially these new-fangled, digital storage, self normalizing, display maximizing types. Now give me an Optical Time Domain Reflectometer and I'll find your Course Wavelength Division Multiplexing problems at the speed of light in glass. g Regards, Terry -Original Message- From: jonfli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:41:10 -0800 Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor Terry, Yes, thank you. However, the CH2 Mean measurement of 71.3mv isn't accurate because it appears to be 200mv! I assume the probe was set at 0-10A with an output of 10mv/Amp, this makes the input current measurement on CH2 to be 2A Mean. The CH1 voltage measurement seems to indicate the coil is driven from a positive supply thru a P-Channel FET or equiv and the power supply voltage is ~20Vdc judging from the CH1 vertical cal at 4.52v/div!? The pulse width measurements are different between CH1 and CH2 so, taking the longer CH1 duration of 27.5ms, these measurements yield 1.1J/pulse which is somewhat close to your calcs. One thing that bothers me a little is the increase in saturation voltage of the assumed P-Channel FET at the relative low current of ~ 2A so they must be using a small die area device. This could certainly be improved upon. Jon F -Original Message- From: jonfli Just curious as to the calibration/div for the current probe used on Ch2 to arrive at your energy calc above? See the post to George on the probe specs. Does that answer your question? Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
Hi Terry, Let's examine the workings of the Sprain Mag Motor in Carnot cycle terms. With reference to the diagram at: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/carnot.html the conventional Carnot cycle takes the following clockwise path. Isothermal expansion Adiabatic expansion Isothermal compression Adiabatic compression To get the refrigeration or heat pump cycle we have circle around widdershins, i.e. Adiabatic compression Isothermal compression Adiabatic expansion Isothermal expansion Now the adiabatic and isothermal sections of the path are often looked at in terms of the introduction and the removal of an insulator for heat. With the insulator present we have adiabatic conditions. With the insulator absent we have isothermal conditions. But we can view the insulator as merely a means of slowing the systems internal biological clock. Insulator present, the internal clock runs slow. Insulator absent, the internal clock runs fast. But we can do away with the insulator and achieve the same effect by manipulating the system's external clock. Now the Carnot cycle becomes, Slow expansion - Heat has long time to enter system. Fast expansion - Heat has little time to enter system. Slow compression- Heat has long time to exit system. Fast compression- Heat has little time to exit system. Assuming that the Sprain Mag Motor works, it seems to me that it has the essentail elements needed to take the working fluid (internal Beta-atmosphere) around a hysteresis cycle. We have the slow build up as the arm circles through nearly 360 degrees - and we have the rapid reversal provided by the electronic bag of tricks. I now understand why the thing is so damned big compared to the Kawai/Takahashi motor - and why the rotor arm turns nice and slow - a great help for a doubting Thomas like me for whom seeing is believing. 8-) The slower that the build up can take place, the better. One needs a very large arm (or arms) and a gearing system to drive a generator. I visualize a vertical arrangement which looks like one of those enormous 19th Century overshot watermill wheels that were used to provide all the energy needs for manufacturing. The Old Bale Mill overshot wheel at Calistoga, California is a good example. See:- http://www.spoom.org/locator/States-HTML/CA/CA-Mill-HTML/CA-028-001BalesMill.htm http://tinyurl.com/mxksq Cheers, Frank Grimer
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
I notice that there is an interesting article in Wiki on Harry Paul Sprain's magnetic motor. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Paul_Harry_Sprain_magnet_motor Frank
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:29:33 - Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor Terry - this motor looks like another variation on the regauging idea. Permanent magnets on the rotor are attracted to others on the perimeter, spaced progressively closer to the rotor so there is a magnetic hill to go down. At the bottom of the hill is a pulsed electromagnet to pull the rotor magnet past the bottom of the hill and regauge it. Surely these motors fail because the amount of energy needed to regauge is equal to, or in excess of, that which can be extracted from the rotor as it goes round? I'm glad you asked. g According to the inventor, and as I observed. The rotor will not self-start. You can place it in most any position and it will not move with a load on the shaft. Paul initiates the rotation (as can be seen in the vid) by passing one of the rotor mags near the emag. Position sensors wake up the microcontroller, Paul gives the rotor a kick start, and away she goes. Position sensors at the bottom of the shaft determine when to fire the emag. The emag (electromagnet, btw) fires just when the rotor mag begins to exit the field. The short pulse momentarily negates the attracting field of the mag with the smallest airgap to the rotor allowing the rotor intertia to take it over the hump and onto another cycle. Now, the shaft is split between the rotor and the top bearing and load device. In the split is a $10k custom built, hall-effect torque sensor. This is the only device with which I have no experience. I will return with my ME buddy to take a look later; but, having faith in who seems to be an honest inventor, I believe the device accurately measures the torque on the shaft. Paul applies a load on the bearing side of the shaft with the screws visible in the image: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/load_screws.jpg The display for the load sensor reads 0.6 Newton-meters as the device rotates. The electrical pulse: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/pulse_display.jpg Indicates less that he is inputting less than 1.1 Watt-seconds of electrical energy into the pulse. In 3*Pi radians (1.5 rotations) he has input less than 3.2 Ws (3 pulses) and output around 6 Nm of mechanical energy (1 Nm = 1 Ws = 1 Joule). This is a COP of 1.88. Regauging? Call it what you may, I think it just might be the Holy Grail. Terry PS I have blind copied the inventor to be sure I have not made any mistakes here. ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:29:33 - Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor Terry - this motor looks like another variation on the regauging idea. Permanent magnets on the rotor are attracted to others on the perimeter, spaced progressively closer to the rotor so there is a magnetic hill to go down. At the bottom of the hill is a pulsed electromagnet to pull the rotor magnet past the bottom of the hill and regauge it. Surely these motors fail because the amount of energy needed to regauge is equal to, or in excess of, that which can be extracted from the rotor as it goes round? Nick Palmer I might not have been clear about the rotor self-starting. With no load, I'm sure it will spin around. And without a load, it spins much faster as I witnessed. This is thanks to the microcontroller which shapes and times the pulse perfectly. I was trying to replicate the patent which is what got me involved. I'm glad I got to meet the inventor. He went through every iteration that I had imagined and then some. Many worked but were not ou (one of his partners hates that term since energy must come from somewhere.) I'm going to finish my replication. I think I can make it spin, but it will not be ou. He stressed that those funds included payment to lawyers for patents, etc. Terry PS Paul, could you remind me what the acronym 'EMILIE' means (to my other address). ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
At 10:18 am 26/02/2006 -0500, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Nick Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:29:33 - Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor Terry - this motor looks like another variation on the regauging idea. Permanent magnets on the rotor are attracted to others on the perimeter, spaced progressively closer to the rotor so there is a magnetic hill to go down. At the bottom of the hill is a pulsed electromagnet to pull the rotor magnet past the bottom of the hill and regauge it. Surely these motors fail because the amount of energy needed to regauge is equal to, or in excess of, that which can be extracted from the rotor as it goes round? I'm glad you asked. g According to the inventor, and as I observed. The rotor will not self-start. You can place it in most any position and it will not move with a load on the shaft. Paul initiates the rotation (as can be seen in the vid) by passing one of the rotor mags near the emag. Position sensors wake up the microcontroller, Paul gives the rotor a kick start, and away she goes. Position sensors at the bottom of the shaft determine when to fire the emag. The emag (electromagnet, btw) fires just when the rotor mag begins to exit the field. The short pulse momentarily negates the attracting field of the mag with the smallest airgap to the rotor allowing the rotor inertia to take it over the hump and onto another cycle. Now, the shaft is split between the rotor and the top bearing and load device. In the split is a $10k custom built, hall-effect torque sensor. This is the only device with which I have no experience. I will return with my ME buddy to take a look later; but, having faith in who seems to be an honest inventor, I believe the device accurately measures the torque on the shaft. Paul applies a load on the bearing side of the shaft with the screws visible in the image: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/load_screws.jpg The display for the load sensor reads 0.6 Newton-meters as the device rotates. The electrical pulse: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/pulse_display.jpg Indicates less that he is inputting less than 1.1 Watt-seconds of electrical energy into the pulse. In 3*Pi radians (1.5 rotations) he has input less than 3.2 Ws (3 pulses) and output around 6 Nm of mechanical energy (1 Nm = 1 Ws = 1 Joule). This is a COP of 1.88. Regauging? Call it what you may, I think it just might be the Holy Grail. Terry £££ Mmm...All very interesting. It seems to me it's a bit like the SMOT which you mentioned in another post, only whereas the SMOT used gravity this uses inertia as the other arm of the cycle. The trouble with the SMOT was, it resembled the John Logie Baird TV system whereas the Sprain is more akin to the Philo T. Farnsworth system - with the difference of course that unlike the SMOT the Baird system did at least work, albeit crudely. I must admit that I would be happier if the energy output was measured by the kind of brake used to measure the output of automotive engines in my mechanical engineering practicals at college, i.e. by a steel band around a flywheel with a weight hanging on the end and cooling water steaming away merrily. Still, as the good book says: Blessed are those who believe and have not seen. or words to that effect. 8-) As for the emag being the Holy Grail, I would rather think it's more akin to the Philosophers Stone which can deliver an inexhaustible supply of Black Gold's energy. Frank Grimer
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
Frank: Mmm...All very interesting. It seems to me it's a bit like the SMOT which you mentioned in another post, only whereas the SMOT used gravity this uses inertia as the other arm of the cycle. Terry: Frank, I would absolutely love to have you explain your theories to them. As usual, you have hit the nail with your concrete-head. Frank: The trouble with the SMOT was, it resembled the John Logie Baird TV system whereas the Sprain is more akin to the Philo T. Farnsworth system - with the difference of course that unlike the SMOT the Baird system did at least work, albeit crudely. Terry: Well, the SMOT does demonstrate ou. You have to study this page carefully. http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/smotidx.htm JLN dropped the ball manually (fingers?) from two different heights and saw a difference of 55 mm in the roll away. Drop it from a mile and see more. g He then had the magnets replace his fingers. 5 mm of fingers vs. magnetism gave 13% of work by the magnets. Frank: I must admit that I would be happier if the energy output was measured by the kind of brake used to measure the output of automotive engines in my mechanical engineering practicals at college, i.e. by a steel band around a flywheel with a weight hanging on the end and cooling water steaming away merrily. Terry: Well if it comes down to it, Scott Little Has calormetry, Will travel. g Actually, he would want Paul to bring his device to EarthTech (Austin, Tx). And I don't think the Magmo will fit in Scotts box. bg Frank: Still, as the good book says: Blessed are those who believe and have not seen. or words to that effect. 8-) Terry: Geeze, Grimer! Are you saying you have faith in little ole me? Frank: As for the emag being the Holy Grail, I would rather think it's more akin to the Philosophers Stone which can deliver an inexhaustible supply of Black Gold's energy. Terry: Yes, but from whence does that energy come? One of the inventor's partners objects to the term ou. He has a perfect right to do so. Those of faith know that there is only one Source. Physicists call it the big bang. Creationists call it creation. Both have faith and I am not anti-semaNtic. g ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: hohlrauml6d Paul Sprain, the inventor, is from Birmingham (there not here). Paul corrected me in that he's only a half Brit. Whew! Here's a piccy of the motor for those who don't want to go join Stefan's site: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/magmo.jpg In action: http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/magmodemo.avi Terry PS Yahoo limits BW to about 5 M per hour. The piccy's small but the .avi is 3/4 M. So, you might have to try later. ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Sprain Mag Motor
-Original Message- From: Grimer Let's hope so. I'll be interested to read your impression of the demo. I saw convincing evidence of 6 Newton-meters produced by 3.2 Watt-seconds. The electrical energy was displayed on a good digital oscope. The inventor used the conservative values for V and I in his Ws calculation. We actually ran several tests. He filters out high frequency components on his electrical input which actually makes the Ws calculation more conservative. He uses a custom made torque measurement device from Lorentz something from Germany. I was a bit concerned to learn that it used a Hall effect device until they agreed to hold a neodymium magnet near the transducer with no apparent effect. We got into a brief discussion on theory. They have their opinion; but, we disagreed. I cut that discussion short; although, one concrete-head's ideas did get injected. I have no doubts that he has spent the near $1M he claims on the development. He showed me several prototypes. He went public Wednesday with the prototype. I was person number 5 to request a viewing. They asked me lots of trick questions. I got most of them right. g Paul Sprain, the inventor, is from Birmingham (there not here). Can't seem to shake you Brits. Anyone have any questions? I believe I can get others in to see the device if there are any takers. It is magnificent. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
RE: Sprain Mag Motor
The oldest question: If it's real, you should be able to make it self running, with an output of excess power. If this seems possible, I would try to design something using a bunch of ultracapacitors to hold the juice - and thereby avoid any questions about batteries being a circuit element, as has happened in the Correa device, etc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 3:41 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sprain Mag Motor -Original Message- From: Grimer Let's hope so. I'll be interested to read your impression of the demo. I saw convincing evidence of 6 Newton-meters produced by 3.2 Watt-seconds. The electrical energy was displayed on a good digital oscope. The inventor used the conservative values for V and I in his Ws calculation. We actually ran several tests. He filters out high frequency components on his electrical input which actually makes the Ws calculation more conservative. He uses a custom made torque measurement device from Lorentz something from Germany. I was a bit concerned to learn that it used a Hall effect device until they agreed to hold a neodymium magnet near the transducer with no apparent effect. We got into a brief discussion on theory. They have their opinion; but, we disagreed. I cut that discussion short; although, one concrete-head's ideas did get injected. I have no doubts that he has spent the near $1M he claims on the development. He showed me several prototypes. He went public Wednesday with the prototype. I was person number 5 to request a viewing. They asked me lots of trick questions. I got most of them right. g Paul Sprain, the inventor, is from Birmingham (there not here). Can't seem to shake you Brits. Anyone have any questions? I believe I can get others in to see the device if there are any takers. It is magnificent. Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
