Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money?
Mark, I think he should have started his marketing campaign in a country with no internet connections. 2011/8/9 Mark Iverson zeropo...@charter.net Hi Steven... I've taken part in this aspect of a startup more than once. And it's just started for the E-Cat... No doubt there will be several more, but the bluff and posturing may never see the light of the public venue since Rossi has made it clear that he's holding nearly all the cards... He has shown that he has a low tolerance for excuses and bluffs... His attitude is, Either produce your side of the bargain or I'll select one of the hundreds of other lucky suitors! Defkalion went into the agreement with Rossi (or more accurately, his wife's company) without the capital needed, but they were betting that they could raise whatever was needed to meet certain financial requirements and timelines. Obviously, they failed to perform! One has to wonder if all the armchair critics and careless commentary about lies and failed demos, etc. has caused potential investors to hold off on promises to DGT... Are the comments here on vortex, and the criticisms on blogs on NyTeknik, Passerini, Rossi's Journal, etc, doing more damage than good, meaning, poisoning the well as far as the ability for DGT, or other entities, to raise the necessary $ to meet their contractual obligations? I hope Rossi has learned the lesson, and will only be making contracts with those who have plenty of liquid assets so they don't delay his schedule. -Mark -Original Message- From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson [mailto:svj.orionwo...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money? Thanks Andrea, It would appear that Mr. Iverson's assessment may have been pretty accurate. Put out [the money] or it's the hi-way. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money?
Andrea Selva wrote: Mark, I think he should have started his marketing campaign in a country with no internet connections. Yes! - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money?
Andrea and Jed sez: Mark, I think he should have started his marketing campaign in a country with no internet connections. Yes! North Korea could really use the energy. Guess they could go out and sell a couple of missals to al qaeda. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:The dream is over?
So, we now are aware that one of the parties, either Rossi's or Defkalion, has been telling big lies. That makes everything questionable. So, I think it is safe to say that, true or not, Rossi's device is at a dead end.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
It depends on what was your dream- Rossi's E-cat or LENR performed with Ni but also with all transition metals on industrial level. However it would be good to know who has told the Big LIe Rossi or the Greek Company- do they (the Company) have generators and some basic know how? Can they continue Rossiless?. I know somebody who has repeatedly warned the Greeks; Timeo Rossi et dona ferentes! For the moment, a great enigma. Peter On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: So, we now are aware that one of the parties, either Rossi's or Defkalion, has been telling big lies. That makes everything questionable. So, I think it is safe to say that, true or not, Rossi's device is at a dead end. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
I think it is difficult to think that Rossi was not aware of what was written on the Defkalion's forums by the their staff: - They have build working systems -- kilowatt scale and megawatt scale. - Their design for the reactor is different than yours, but is fully functional. - They never obtained an output of less than nineteen times the input, with their reactors. - As of a month ago they were in the middle of pilot production of their Hyperion systems. - These systems have underwent tests by the Greek government the first ten days of July. - At peak, they have tested one thousand Hyperion kernels at one time, producing a large amount of heat they share with a nearby police academy. (The list was summarized here http://pesn.com/2011/08/08/9501888_Betrayal_Catalyzed--An_Open_Letter_To_Andrea_Rossi/ ) I think it is more likely that Rossi is lying right now than Defkalion.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: So, we now are aware that one of the parties, either Rossi's or Defkalion, has been telling big lies. That makes everything questionable. So, I think it is safe to say that, true or not, Rossi's device is at a dead end. On the contrary, when people start fighting over money that is a good indication the claims are true. On 60 Minutes yesterday they interviewed Paul Allen, co-founder of Microsoft. He described some of vicious fights over money in the early years there, when they started to make big bucks. Rossi can all the lies he wants, but calorimetry does not lie, and I do not think it is possible to make such a simple device with hidden wires or some other trick that Levi et al. would not catch. Rossi said this is about money, nothing else. I doubt that's a lie. He also said Defkalion has not done a single test of E-cat technology. If that is true Defkalion must be lying and there is no way they will open a factory this year. If it is not true then Rossi is lying. He has been in Greece and he has visited Defkalion so I suppose he must know what they are doing. One or the other has to be lying. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
So, at the very least, Rossi erred by omission, a very bad one, by not dismissing Defkalion's claims of massively testing e-cats. So, he blatantly associated with liars and cheaters.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
I wrote: One or the other has to be lying. PESN agrees with me. See: http://pesn.com/2011/08/07/9501887_An_E-Cat_Full_of_Lies_-_Rossi_or_Defkalion/ This is a good summary of Rossi versus Defkalion claims, and Defkalion's statements about testing in the Greek government. A later report: http://pesn.com/2011/08/08/9501889_Defkalion_Responds_Ignores_Rossis_Accusation/ - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
From Daniel: So, at the very least, Rossi erred by omission, a very bad one, by not dismissing Defkalion's claims of massively testing e-cats. So, he blatantly associated with liars and cheaters. It's just business. Nothing personal. ;-) Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
I am not talking about something personal. Just that there was at the very least a scam from Defkalion.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: So, at the very least, Rossi erred by omission, a very bad one, by not dismissing Defkalion's claims of massively testing e-cats. So, he blatantly associated with liars and cheaters. I do not understand what you mean, not dismissing. He does dismiss them. He says Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greece. That dismisses their claims. If that is true, I do not understand why he said nothing during the press conference, when they made all those claims and distributed their White Paper. One side or the other appears to be liars and cheaters. Maybe both are. However, that has no bearing on the technical validity of their claims. To see what I mean, read some biographies of famous inventors, technologists and industrialists such as Edison or Bill Gates. You will find that such people are often liars and cheaters. They are not seldom nice people. At least, not when they are at the office. Sometimes they have different personalities in different circumstances. Andrew Carnegie and Bill Gates in retirement turned into some of the greatest humanitarian philanthropists in history. I never would have guessed Gates would. It is wonderful thing. As a businessman and boss he was as nasty as they come. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
At 11:37 AM 8/8/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: I wrote: One or the other has to be lying. PESN agrees with me. See: http://pesn.com/2011/08/07/9501887_An_E-Cat_Full_of_Lies_-_Rossi_or_Defkalion/ This is a good summary of Rossi versus Defkalion claims, and Defkalion's statements about testing in the Greek government. Except that Defkalion never said they built a CORE (The fist-sized part of the mini-eCat). They DO claim to have built a closed-loop glycol REACTOR. which could have been done round a Rossi-supplied CORE. They never said that Rossi disclosed what is in the core. In their offer letter they did say that they would make the cores at an unspecified time in the future. So on that basis neither is lying : Insufficient evidence.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: I am not talking about something personal. Just that there was at the very least a scam from Defkalion. Perhaps, but I think it is more likely that Rossi is lying about what Defkalion has. I think it is unlikely he does not realize what they have. But I suppose it is possible. Both sides are behaving abominably in my opinion. Such behavior is common in high-stakes start-up business ventures, but it is still abominable. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
From Daniel: I am not talking about something personal. Just that there was at the very least a scam from Defkalion. Again, it's just business! Perhaps the following links will shed light on the nothing personal phrase. ;-) http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/29227 http://www.great-quotes.com/quote/173936 Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: This is a good summary of Rossi versus Defkalion claims, and Defkalion's statements about testing in the Greek government. Except that Defkalion never said they built a CORE (The fist-sized part of the mini-eCat). Rossi says Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greece. That rules out using his Cores in government testing. They DO claim to have built a closed-loop glycol REACTOR. which could have been done round a Rossi-supplied CORE. They never said that Rossi disclosed what is in the core. In their offer letter they did say that they would make the cores at an unspecified time in the future. An interesting point. However, I think Rossi's statement rules this out. He said not a single test. Furthermore, I doubt that the Greek Min. of Energy or any EU safety related agency would certify this machine as safe without first examining the inside of reactor core and subjecting it to many tests for radioactivity and so on. Frankly, I find that inconceivable. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
Jed, I meant dismissed before he split out of Defkalion. He was okay with them lying while there was promise of money from Defkalion. If that was some minor detail, that would be alright, like releasing date, some fine detail about the working of the machines. But, they lied about everything! They built a forum just to spread lies in Defkalion's website. Also, Stremmentos was part of the board of directors of Defkalion, and he is one that tested the device. So, the whole things sounds fishy now to me.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money?
Andrea Rossi August 8th, 2011 at 1:38 PM Dear Alessandro Casali: I repeat that the reason of the split from Defkalion has been only and exclusively financial. As for all the other issue: as all our Readers know, I always said that we would have been ready for the market from November only with the 1 MW plants, while for the small units more time was necessary, for many issues. In fact, we will start in October our 1 MW plant, and we will be ready to sell such plants from November, as I always said, while we will be ready for the small plants in due time. It is true that Defkalion, which is an entity indipendent form us, has repeatedly published that they were ready to make a mass production of E-Cats, they also said repeatedly and publicly that they were ready to invest hundreds od millions of Euros. I had no reason not to believe them. I could not know which kind of assets they had, so, theoretically, they could be able to make what they said, after getting from me the technology to make the core of the reactors. There was not reason not to believe. The problem emerged when, after we waited until the maximum possible term, we demanded that the financial duties be respected. At that point it emerged that the financial resources were not enough to go on. This is the sole real problem. There have not been technological problems (see the comment of their chief scientist Prof. Christos Stremmenos, published here few minutes ago), there have not been personal problems, at all, not counting the fact that I love Greece (by the way: to visit Greece in this season is like to go in Paradise), there have not been problems of delivery, I have already perfectly in schedule my 1 MW plant, while the production in big series of the E-Cats was not my duty ( by the way, I always said them that this policy was completely wrong, for the first 2 years, but they were free to do what they want in reece and Balkans); the only problem has been that they were delaying from months their financial duties, until it has not been possible to go ahead. Of course, since they have not respected what due, I did not give them any confidential information regarding the inside of the reactors. Warm Regards, A.R.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money?
At 12:01 PM 8/8/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: Andrea Rossi August 8th, 2011 at 1:38 PM the only problem has been that they were delaying from months their financial duties, until it has not been possible to go ahead. Of course, since they have not respected what due, Which contradicts Rossi's repeated statements that he would get nothing until the 1MW system was accepted. Maybe he required that the money was put in escrow ... so again, it could be not-a-lie. I did not give them any confidential information regarding the inside of the reactors. Again, he could have delivered cores. (messages are flying, so from your previous post: ) Rossi says Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greece. That rules out using his Cores in government testing. I think we're asking too much -- expecting Rossi to be clear and consistent.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money?
Thanks Andrea, It would appear that Mr. Iverson's assessment may have been pretty accurate. Put out [the money] or it's the hi-way. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:The dream is over?
Whoa! The Dream is not over. It has just been renamed . and/or redefined. There does not have to be a lie. The scenario which keeps everyone (both Rossi and DGT) technically honest is: 1)Cyprus is not Greece, and there are at least two corporate entities involved with similar names - maybe three, and the Hyperion is not an E-Cat ! (technically) 2)There are no Rossi reactors in Greece. True. In fact the reactors submitted to the Greek government are made by DGT, called Hyperions and are not Rossi's E-Cats, and come from a design of Praxen-DGT, a separate company. 3)DGT does not know the industrial secret. True. The industrial secret or one which is similar, has been developed by another company called Praxen-DGT in Cyprus, not Greece. 4) No one in Greece knows the secret. Possibly true. Again PDGT is in Cyprus, which is a primo tax haven; and thus PDGT cannot allow itself to be too closely identified with DGT or else the taxman will get involved. 5)There is nothing going on in Xanthi - this could be true, since all the action appears to be in Limassol but if DGT gets the funds for Xanthi, reactors can still be made in Cyprus The big question is how PDGT was able to either copy (rename) or improve (redefine) the Rossi technology in a relatively short time. (if they did). For you IBMers, did they rename of redefine the design (and the dream) ? at least there used to be a difference in COBOL :-) The best guess on that one, is that there is a massive oversupply of high-level PhD scientists in a certain former World power, who are extraordinarily underpaid by EEC standards, and who would relocate in a heartbeat to one of Europe's most desirable locations, even if it were not a tax haven. Imagine hiring a cadre of smiling top scientists for minimum wage (CA) - that is not too far-off from what is possible, following the end of the Cold War. Let me emphasize that I am not suggesting the above scenario is fact - merely that it is consistent with the circumstances, as we know them on Aug8. From: Daniel Rocha I think it is difficult to think that Rossi was not aware of what was written on the Defkalion's forums by the their staff: * They have build working systems -- kilowatt scale and megawatt scale. * Their design for the reactor is different than yours, but is fully functional. * They never obtained an output of less than nineteen times the input, with their reactors. * As of a month ago they were in the middle of pilot production of their Hyperion systems. * These systems have underwent tests by the Greek government the first ten days of July. * At peak, they have tested one thousand Hyperion kernels at one time, producing a large amount of heat they share with a nearby police academy. (The list was summarized here http://pesn.com/2011/08/08/9501888_Betrayal_Catalyzed--An_Open_Letter_To_And rea_Rossi/) I think it is more likely that Rossi is lying right now than Defkalion.
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Jed, I meant dismissed before he split out of Defkalion. He was okay with them lying while there was promise of money from Defkalion. If that was some minor detail, that would be alright, like releasing date, some fine detail about the working of the machines. But, they lied about everything! They built a forum just to spread lies in Defkalion's website. I suppose that is one scenario. You are assuming that Rossi is telling the truth, and Defkalion was lying. However, I think this scenario is more likely: 1. Defkalion was telling the truth then, and they are telling the truth now. They really have tested many reactors. 2. Yesterday, in a fit of anger, Rossi suddenly decided to lie and claim that they have done not a single test. 3. Hours later he stopped lying, and dropped that subject. He then told NyTeknik, the issue is just financial, not personal, nor technological, nor scientific. If it is not technological then I suppose he means he is not contradicting Defkalion after all, and they *did* do tests. 4. Now he says they have been delaying for months a payment or an escrow account or who knows what. You know what I think? I think that when Rossi gets upset he says all kinds of stuff, which you should ignore. He does not mean it. A few hours later he says something that contradicts what he said earlier. I think we should take this whole outburst and file it under Rossi, A. -- annoying antics (if there is any room left in that folder). Forget it. I don't think it means a darn thing. I doubt he will file a lawsuit. Also, Stremmentos was part of the board of directors of Defkalion, and he is one that tested the device. So, the whole things sounds fishy now to me. Everything about Rossi sounds fishy even when it isn't. You should not assume there is any merit to his accusations. He has stopped making most of the accusations. He'll probably forget all about it in a few days. He thrives on drama. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:The dream is over?
It takes a lawyer, or a former lawyer, to recognize the following comment by Jones (a former lawyer): 2)There are no Rossi reactors in Greece. True. In fact the reactors submitted to the Greek government are made by DGT, called Hyperions and are not Rossi's E-Cats, and come from a design of Praxen-DGT, a separate company. Rossi: No E-Cats have ever been testing in Greece... DGT: Claims of testing Hyperions and submitting units to govt for testing... How can both of these statements be true? How can Rossi be both right and wrong? If Rossi is clever enough, then that statement could be true as literally and strictly interpreted... as Jones points out. It would be in Rossi's interest to make it look like DGT might have stretched the truth a bit (by claiming to have tested devices in Greece). Rossi knows where every single E-Cat reactor is, and he can say with certainty that one was never given to Greece/DGT... that could very well be a true statement. However, the DGT claim of testing Hyperions in Greece could also be true if DGT has succeeded in producing reactors which also work, without having reverse-engineered one given to them by Rossi... DGT is not Rossi, and Hyperions are not E-Cats. You have to read these things very carefully! It is common knowledge in the legal realm (attorneys, judges and courtrooms) that 'LEGAL' definitions are very different from the 'common' or 'slang' definition... and it is almost always the LEGAL definition that applies in those venues. With all the interaction and courtroom time that Rossi has seen due to prior 'legal complications', he is probably very aware of the subtleties of legal jargon. -Mark
Re: [Vo]:The dream is over?
Rossi says no tests of his e-cat technology have been made in GREECE. Defkalion may still have some prototype hyperion units (containing e-cats) in another country. Harry From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 2:57:41 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Alan J Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: This is a good summary of Rossi versus Defkalion claims, and Defkalion's statements about testing in the Greek government. Except that Defkalion never said they built a CORE (The fist-sized part of the mini-eCat). Rossi says Not one single test, of the many demonstrations of the E-Cat technology held around the world, has ever been done in Greece. That rules out using his Cores in government testing. They DO claim to have built a closed-loop glycol REACTOR. which could have been done round a Rossi-supplied CORE. They never said that Rossi disclosed what is in the core. In their offer letter they did say that they would make the cores at an unspecified time in the future. An interesting point. However, I think Rossi's statement rules this out. He said not a single test. Furthermore, I doubt that the Greek Min. of Energy or any EU safety related agency would certify this machine as safe without first examining the inside of reactor core and subjecting it to many tests for radioactivity and so on. Frankly, I find that inconceivable. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money?
Hi Steven... I've taken part in this aspect of a startup more than once. And it's just started for the E-Cat... No doubt there will be several more, but the bluff and posturing may never see the light of the public venue since Rossi has made it clear that he's holding nearly all the cards... He has shown that he has a low tolerance for excuses and bluffs... His attitude is, Either produce your side of the bargain or I'll select one of the hundreds of other lucky suitors! Defkalion went into the agreement with Rossi (or more accurately, his wife's company) without the capital needed, but they were betting that they could raise whatever was needed to meet certain financial requirements and timelines. Obviously, they failed to perform! One has to wonder if all the armchair critics and careless commentary about lies and failed demos, etc. has caused potential investors to hold off on promises to DGT... Are the comments here on vortex, and the criticisms on blogs on NyTeknik, Passerini, Rossi's Journal, etc, doing more damage than good, meaning, poisoning the well as far as the ability for DGT, or other entities, to raise the necessary $ to meet their contractual obligations? I hope Rossi has learned the lesson, and will only be making contracts with those who have plenty of liquid assets so they don't delay his schedule. -Mark -Original Message- From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson [mailto:svj.orionwo...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The dream is over? Rossi - Defkalion ran out of money? Thanks Andrea, It would appear that Mr. Iverson's assessment may have been pretty accurate. Put out [the money] or it's the hi-way. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
