Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
Am 02.09.2011 22:04, schrieb Horace Heffner: The above makes no sense to me. Resistor wattage ratings are merely the maximum wattage that can be put though them without the expectation they will be destroyed. The power ratings are not used to compute the power or current through them. If you put 600 W through a 300 W resistor you can expect it to soon burn out. The printed values are the recommended safe operation conditions, not the maximum rating. With this type of heater resistors, the maximum rating depends mostly on cooling and can be multiply exceeded with good cooling. The problem is, then the voltage must been increased above 230V. P= U^2/R. For double power the voltage must be 1.41*230V. However, if I compare this resistor with the heater coil inside my hairdryer, then the coil in my hairdryer is much smaller and it has 1200W. So, with good cooling, the resistor could deliver about 4 times the wattage. Maybe the lifetime could decrease, but it should be possible.
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:17 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: I have attached a jpg of the inside of the controller box. Sure is a rat's nest of wires. Where did you get that? A screen capture from a video? A still image? - Jed Yes. I stopped the YouTube video and then did a selective screen cut (COMMAND option 4, NOT alt 4, when in finder mode) on my Mac. If you have Windows 7 it has a snipping tool which can snip parts of your screen. If not Windows 7, you can install Gadwin PrintScreen to get the same capability. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
I wrote: It is also notable that if the neutral and ground are shorted together in the blue box, and the ammeter is clamped on the neutral, that input power estimates could be double that estimated. That should read: It is also notable that if the neutral and ground are shorted together in the blue box, and the ammeter is clamped on the neutral, that true input power could be double that estimated. In the Krivit video at time 43 seconds you can see the meter is clamped on the brown lead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E This should be correct because the current IEC 60446 standard is neutral-blue, line-brown, and protective-earth-green/yellow. There appears to be some kind of short white adapter between the wall socket and the plug visible at time 41 seconds. Maybe that is just part of the plug? Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
Am 03.09.2011 14:11, schrieb Horace Heffner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E This should be correct because the current IEC 60446 standard is neutral-blue, line-brown, and protective-earth-green/yellow. There appears to be some kind of short white adapter between the wall socket and the plug visible at time 41 seconds. Maybe that is just part of the plug? Look here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stecker-Typ_L These plugs are symmetrical and blue-brown has no meaning, these can be plugged in both orientations. There is an 10A type and a 16 A type. Best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 3, 2011, at 3:34 AM, Peter Heckert wrote: Am 02.09.2011 22:04, schrieb Horace Heffner: The above makes no sense to me. Resistor wattage ratings are merely the maximum wattage that can be put though them without the expectation they will be destroyed. The power ratings are not used to compute the power or current through them. If you put 600 W through a 300 W resistor you can expect it to soon burn out. The printed values are the recommended safe operation conditions, not the maximum rating. Resistors Wattage Rating and is defined as the amount of heat that a resistive element can dissipate for an indefinite period of time without degrading its performance. http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_7.html Practical resistors are also specified as having a maximum power rating which must exceed the anticipated power dissipation of that resistor in a particular circuit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor I have had lots of experience burning out resistors. 8^) With this type of heater resistors, the maximum rating depends mostly on cooling and can be multiply exceeded with good cooling. The above is generally true. However, we are talking about band heaters and immersion heaters. They are designed for operation in the manner Rossi is using them, though probably *not* with thick insulation wrapped around the band heaters. Also, such things are made for heating water, not boiling water. The problem is, then the voltage must been increased above 230V. P= U^2/R. For double power the voltage must be 1.41*230V. My point was that the drawing posted showed two 300 W resistors. Rossi put 1200 W through his device in at least one test, AND his controllers output 220 V max. This indicates he has a device with multiple band heaters, or lower resistances and higher power ratings. Perhaps he has a higher wattage 220 V immersion heater inside. Who knows? However, if I compare this resistor with the heater coil inside my hairdryer, then the coil in my hairdryer is much smaller and it has 1200W. So, with good cooling, the resistor could deliver about 4 times the wattage. Maybe the lifetime could decrease, but it should be possible. This does not seem relevant to me because the resistors are being used as designed, at no more than 220 V, but with the exception of heavy insulation on the outside. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
Am 03.09.2011 14:48, schrieb Horace Heffner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor I have had lots of experience burning out resistors. 8^) I too. Electronics once was my hobby, and still is my day job ;-) Because I repair, test and develop I have seen burned devices of all kinds ;-) Another thought: When Rossi makes the e-cats in USA he probably must use other devices. The voltage is different.
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 3, 2011, at 4:24 AM, Peter Heckert wrote:Am 03.09.2011 14:11, schrieb Horace Heffner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98EThis should be correct because the current IEC60446 standard is neutral-blue,line-brown, and protective-earth-green/yellow. There appears to be some kind of short white adapter betweenthe wall socket and the plug visible at time 41 seconds. Maybethat is just part of the plug? Look here:http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stecker-Typ_LThese plugs are symmetrical and blue-brown has no meaning, these canbe plugged in both orientations.There is an 10A type and a 16 A type.Best,Peter Wow, that is interesting. Thanks for posting that! The ground is the center conductor, so neutral and line can be easily interchanged. If the ground and neutral are shorted in the controller box then plugging in an L-type plug gives one a 50-50 chance of sparks and triggered circuit breaker. If they should happen to be shorted it in the blue box would likely be intentional.The above reference is for an L-type connector. I have appended a jpg showing the wall connections. The plug on the left appears to be an L-type. However, its cord runs up toward the ceiling. The cord on the plug on the right leads to Rossi's power meter connection. It is not clear to me that the receptacle on the right is an L-type. Its border is different. Perhaps it is vertically aligned? The white adapter might be to convert from a polarized 3 prong plug to an L-type. I have a 120 V to 220 V EU converter box (useable vice versa) which has a polarized receptacle for both voltages (differing configuration though), and no L-type receptacle. The gray plug appears it might be a polarized plug. I have no way to tell if the white thing is plugged into an L-type receptacle. Maybe you are familiar with this kind of wall mount box? Best regards,Horace Heffnerhttp://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
Am 03.09.2011 15:23, schrieb Horace Heffner: On Sep 3, 2011, at 4:24 AM, Peter Heckert wrote: Am 03.09.2011 14:11, schrieb Horace Heffner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E This should be correct because the current IEC 60446 standard is neutral-blue, line-brown, and protective-earth-green/yellow. There appears to be some kind of short white adapter between the wall socket and the plug visible at time 41 seconds. Maybe that is just part of the plug? Look here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stecker-Typ_L These plugs are symmetrical and blue-brown has no meaning, these can be plugged in both orientations. There is an 10A type and a 16 A type. Best, Peter Wow, that is interesting. Thanks for posting that! The ground is the center conductor, so neutral and line can be easily interchanged. I dont suspect tricks with the power line. This is easily detected and Matts Levan already used his own instrument during the test. If the ground and neutral are shorted in the controller box then plugging in an L-type plug gives one a 50-50 chance of sparks and triggered circuit breaker. If they should happen to be shorted it in the blue box would likely be intentional. The above reference is for an L-type connector. I have appended a jpg showing the wall connections. The plug on the left appears to be an L-type. However, its cord runs up toward the ceiling. The cord on the plug on the right leads to Rossi's power meter connection. It is not clear to me that the receptacle on the right is an L-type. Its border is different. Perhaps it is vertically aligned? The white adapter might be to convert from a polarized 3 prong plug to an L-type. I have a 120 V to 220 V EU converter box (useable vice versa) which has a polarized receptacle for both voltages (differing configuration though), and no L-type receptacle. The gray plug appears it might be a polarized plug. I have no way to tell if the white thing is plugged into an L-type receptacle. Maybe you are familiar with this kind of wall mount box? I think this at the left side is a multinorm compatible Schuko. The right plug in Rossis outlet is type L. I dont know the purpose of the left cable. It is thin. Possibly it is for the coffee machine ;-) Look here, there are better images and english descriptions.: http://users.telenet.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm#plugs Schuko is type F. Im used to Schuko (type F). (Im in Germany) These are electrically compatible but not mechanically. Schuko is non-polarized and I am used to that. Rossis wall outlet seems to be a combined Schuko - Type L outlet. This makes sense, as they traditionally use Type L in Italy, but in new installations they use Schuko, and so they probably have combined wall outlets that support both standards. There has also been some confusion about the voltage. Sometimes they say 220V and sometimes 230V. This is easily explained: In earlier times some countries in europe used 220V and some used 240V. European union tries to harmonize the situation and so, some years ago we went here in germany from 220 to 230V. But 220 V devices are still in use and they work. 220V is the old standard and 230V is the new standard, and normally thes are compatible. I think, they have the same situation in Italy. Best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 3, 2011, at 7:06 AM, Peter Heckert wrote: [snip] Thanks for all the good information. There has also been some confusion about the voltage. Sometimes they say 220V and sometimes 230V. This is easily explained: In earlier times some countries in europe used 220V and some used 240V. European union tries to harmonize the situation and so, some years ago we went here in germany from 220 to 230V. But 220 V devices are still in use and they work. 220V is the old standard and 230V is the new standard, and normally thes are compatible. I think, they have the same situation in Italy. Best, Peter If the power actually is 230 V instead of 220 V then the power would be about 9% higher than estimated (not that important). If 240 V instead of 220 V, then power is off by 19%. I guess Mats Lewan's work would also not have this problem though. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
There is a pretty good photo by Mats Lewan of the band heater and reactor section here: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
At 04:57 PM 9/1/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: The total power of resisters (in your drawing) at 300 W + 300 W = 600 W seems low. Rossi states in Krivit's film he is using 748 watts, from which I did the following computations: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/KrivitFilm.pdf In another demo the power was up over 1000 W. I don't see wiring for any sensors that the controller might use in the above photo. There is a white cable coming out of the back right side in the film. It is not possible to tell if sensor wires are included in the white cables along with the power wires. I've seen no wires from the eCat to the computer. In this setup Rossi looks at his computer screen and adjusts the power controllers by hand. Specs for the controller unit have been posted (here?) ... the display reads 0 ... 9 As a first approximation they just modulate the power by chopping it, so let's say it modulates the power linearly from 0/9 to 9/9. Videos always show one set to '3' and one to '9' R1 is known to be 300W R2 is unknown For Krivit the total power was 770W Lewan says the controller power was 65W So we have either 9+3 : 9/9 * 300W + 3/9 * R2 = (770W - 65W) giving R2 = 1215W and maximum power at 9+9 is 1515W 3+9 : 3/9 * 300W + 9/9 * R2 = (770W - 65W) giving R2 = 605W and maximum power at 9+9 is 905W If we could trace the cables then we could pick the right one. Or just take the average -- R2 = 910W and round it up to 1KW
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 04:57 PM 9/1/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: The total power of resisters (in your drawing) at 300 W + 300 W = 600 W seems low. Rossi states in Krivit's film he is using 748 watts, from which I did the following computations: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/KrivitFilm.pdf In another demo the power was up over 1000 W. I don't see wiring for any sensors that the controller might use in the above photo. There is a white cable coming out of the back right side in the film. It is not possible to tell if sensor wires are included in the white cables along with the power wires. I've seen no wires from the eCat to the computer. In this setup Rossi looks at his computer screen and adjusts the power controllers by hand. Oh! I didn't get that. (Slaps forehead!) I just assumed they were programmable controllers. Thanks for the info. This is nonsensical to me. You can buy 1000 watt light dimmers at Home Depot and other places very cheaply. Why go to the bother of building the box? http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-Dimmers/h_d1/ N-5yc1vZ1xg1Zbnni/h_d2/Navigation? langId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053cm_mmc=SEM|THD|D27EElectrical| DimmersLightControlsskwcid=TC|13168|%2B1000%20%2Bwatt%20%2Bdimmer||S| b|7710963877 http://tinyurl.com/3vbjq5k Gee, if choppers are used this creates transients in the input, and invalidates the use of ordinary current meters or power meters. Specs for the controller unit have been posted (here?) ... the display reads 0 ... 9 As a first approximation they just modulate the power by chopping it, so let's say it modulates the power linearly from 0/9 to 9/9. Videos always show one set to '3' and one to '9' R1 is known to be 300W R2 is unknown For Krivit the total power was 770W Lewan says the controller power was 65W So we have either 9+3 : 9/9 * 300W + 3/9 * R2 = (770W - 65W) giving R2 = 1215W and maximum power at 9+9 is 1515W 3+9 : 3/9 * 300W + 9/9 * R2 = (770W - 65W) giving R2 = 605W and maximum power at 9+9 is 905W If we could trace the cables then we could pick the right one. Or just take the average -- R2 = 910W and round it up to 1KW The above makes no sense to me. Resistor wattage ratings are merely the maximum wattage that can be put though them without the expectation they will be destroyed. The power ratings are not used to compute the power or current through them. If you put 600 W through a 300 W resistor you can expect it to soon burn out. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
The dimmers are commercial ones from an Italian manifacturer. Here the specs http://www.gsei.it/attachs/P020_01.pdf In Italian sorry. Try google translator. 2011/9/2 Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 04:57 PM 9/1/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: The total power of resisters (in your drawing) at 300 W + 300 W = 600 W seems low. Rossi states in Krivit's film he is using 748 watts, from which I did the following computations: http://www.mtaonline.net/~**hheffner/KrivitFilm.pdfhttp://www.mtaonline.net/%7Ehheffner/KrivitFilm.pdf In another demo the power was up over 1000 W. I don't see wiring for any sensors that the controller might use in the above photo. There is a white cable coming out of the back right side in the film. It is not possible to tell if sensor wires are included in the white cables along with the power wires. I've seen no wires from the eCat to the computer. In this setup Rossi looks at his computer screen and adjusts the power controllers by hand. Oh! I didn't get that. (Slaps forehead!) I just assumed they were programmable controllers. Thanks for the info. This is nonsensical to me. You can buy 1000 watt light dimmers at Home Depot and other places very cheaply. Why go to the bother of building the box? http://www.homedepot.com/**Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-**Dimmers/h_d1/N-** 5yc1vZ1xg1Zbnni/h_d2/**Navigation?langId=-1storeId=** 10051catalogId=10053cm_mmc=**SEM|THD|D27EElectrical|** DimmersLightControlsskwcid=**TC|13168|%2B1000%20%2Bwatt%20%** 2Bdimmer||S|b|7710963877http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Dimmers-Switches-Dimmers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xg1Zbnni/h_d2/Navigation?langId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053cm_mmc=SEM%7CTHD%7CD27EElectrical%7CDimmersLightControlsskwcid=TC%7C13168%7C%2B1000%20%2Bwatt%20%2Bdimmer%7C%7CS%7Cb%7C7710963877 http://tinyurl.com/3vbjq5k Gee, if choppers are used this creates transients in the input, and invalidates the use of ordinary current meters or power meters. Specs for the controller unit have been posted (here?) ... the display reads 0 ... 9 As a first approximation they just modulate the power by chopping it, so let's say it modulates the power linearly from 0/9 to 9/9. Videos always show one set to '3' and one to '9' R1 is known to be 300W R2 is unknown For Krivit the total power was 770W Lewan says the controller power was 65W So we have either 9+3 : 9/9 * 300W + 3/9 * R2 = (770W - 65W) giving R2 = 1215W and maximum power at 9+9 is 1515W 3+9 : 3/9 * 300W + 9/9 * R2 = (770W - 65W) giving R2 = 605W and maximum power at 9+9 is 905W If we could trace the cables then we could pick the right one. Or just take the average -- R2 = 910W and round it up to 1KW The above makes no sense to me. Resistor wattage ratings are merely the maximum wattage that can be put though them without the expectation they will be destroyed. The power ratings are not used to compute the power or current through them. If you put 600 W through a 300 W resistor you can expect it to soon burn out. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~**hheffner/http://www.mtaonline.net/%7Ehheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
It would have been so much better to use a variac or multi-tapped transformer to vary power. Then a very cheap meter (under $30) could have been used to monitor both instant power and accumulated kWh. This could have been done for about $100 per power lead into the device. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
At 01:04 PM 9/2/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: So we have either 9+3 : 9/9 * 300W + 3/9 * R2 = (770W - 65W) giving R2 = 1215W and maximum power at 9+9 is 1515W 3+9 : 3/9 * 300W + 9/9 * R2 = (770W - 65W) giving R2 = 605W and maximum power at 9+9 is 905W If we could trace the cables then we could pick the right one. Or just take the average -- R2 = 910W and round it up to 1KW The above makes no sense to me. Resistor wattage ratings are merely the maximum wattage that can be put though them without the expectation they will be destroyed. The power ratings are not used to compute the power or current through them. If you put 600 W through a 300 W resistor you can expect it to soon burn out. That was just a first-order calculation. I presumed the maximum wattages are for the same input voltages. You can do the whole V=IR foo if you want to, but you don't know the voltages applied to the resistors or the resistor values themselves. Gee, if choppers are used this creates transients in the input, and invalidates the use of ordinary current meters or power meters. The current meters in the experiments were on the mains-side of the control box. At 01:12 PM 9/2/2011, Susan Gipp wrote: The dimmers are commercial ones from an Italian manifacturer. Here the specs http://www.gsei.it/attachs/P020_01.pdf In Italian sorry. Try google translator. Thanks. TECHNICAL DATA 10 / 20 Amp: * RANGE: 0 - 100% 20 Steps. CURRENT linearization. SAVE SETUP TO E2PROM. * BREAKING LOAD ALARM / FUSE SEMICONDUCTOR AND WITH CONTACT N.a. 48V 1A AC / DC. TIME RESPONSE FROM EVENT 200mS. (Appears only point on the display). PHASE-ANGLE: 200mS * SOFT START AND AUTO SOFT START FOR LACK OF TEMPORARY LINE VOLTAGE AND POWER TOOL. ZERO-CROSSING FAST With preheating: * SOFT START PHASE ANGLE, MAINTENANCE AND PASSAGE FOR 5 Sec ZERO CROSSING WITH FAST CYCLE TIME 400ms. Hmmm 0 - 100% 20 Steps. (But it only displays one digit?) Zero crossing and CURRENT linearization implies it's not simple chopper
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
At 01:54 PM 9/2/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: That was just a first-order calculation. I presumed the maximum wattages are for the same input voltages. You can do the whole V=IR foo if you want to, but you don't know the voltages applied to the resistors or the resistor values themselves. Krivit's picture of the control box shows no transformers, so we mains voltage was probably used. http://www.esowatch.com/en/images/7/7c/RF_control_box.jpg The collar resistor http://www.esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=File:Rossi_Ecat.jpg is clearly stamped V 230 -- but no other numbers are legible.
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:14 PM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 01:54 PM 9/2/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: That was just a first-order calculation. I presumed the maximum wattages are for the same input voltages. You can do the whole V=IR foo if you want to, but you don't know the voltages applied to the resistors or the resistor values themselves. Krivit's picture of the control box shows no transformers, so we mains voltage was probably used. http://www.esowatch.com/en/images/7/7c/RF_control_box.jpg Cool - someone snipped exactly the same frame of Krivit's video I did, based on the finger positions. I thought it was the best frame also. The collar resistor http://www.esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=File:Rossi_Ecat.jpg is clearly stamped V 230 -- but no other numbers are legible. Yes of course - the controllers control 220V (or more). As I noted, the specifications seem to indicate that auxiliary 24 V and 48 V inputs are required by the controllers. The white boxes in the lower left of the blue controller box appear to be transformers to meet these auxiliary requirements. We are possibly looking at multiple transformer secondary output ports on top of the white boxes. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:17 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: I have attached a jpg of the inside of the controller box. Sure is a rat's nest of wires. Where did you get that? A screen capture from a video? A still image? - Jed Yes. I stopped the YouTube video and then did a selective screen cut (shift option 4. i.e. alt 4, when in finder mode) on my Mac. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 2, 2011, at 12:54 PM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 01:04 PM 9/2/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: [snip] Gee, if choppers are used this creates transients in the input, and invalidates the use of ordinary current meters or power meters. The current meters in the experiments were on the mains-side of the control box. Yes, I was very familiar with this. I watched the video. Rossi used a clamp on AC ammeter, clamped around a wire exposed by cutting into the power cord insulation. My point is choppers put significant current and voltage transients on the input (and output) power supply lines. The adverse effect of erratic pulsed signals on rms current and power measurement has been discussed since the days of Fleischmann and Pons. Using rms current and voltage to compute power then results in a power that is way too low. A fast integrating power meter, such as the Clarke-Hess wattmeters is required for accurate power and total energy measurements. See: http://www.clarke-hess.com/ http://www.clarke-hess.com/chinfo.html The only way reasonable power measurement is likely to occur without a fast integrating watt meter is if there is an adequate filter between the meter and the blue box. Same goes for output leads. Being able to plot cumulative energy in vs cumulative energy out is very important to excess thermal energy experiments, especially if instabilities are involved, or in-run thermal pulses are used to validate calibration. The difficulty with transients on input power lines is that they skew the results in the direction of apparent (false) excess power. Therefore they can not be ignored. It is also notable that if the neutral and ground are shorted together in the blue box, and the ammeter is clamped on the neutral, that input power estimates could be double that estimated. There are good digital power plus kWh meters that can be had for under $200. For example: http://kwhmeters.com/EKM-23IDS-N_v.2.html However, they need fairly smooth sinusoidal demand. For 120 V operation a Kill-A-Watt brand meter can be obtained from amazon.com for under $20. Not useful for Rossi, except maybe in the USA, but I have found this to be a very useful meter. P3 International also has lots of other cool stuff: http://www.p3international.com/products/index.html Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
I have to question that order, esp the heater abutting the lead. Also I'm not entirely convinced there isn't electrical conduction through the water. - Original Message - From: Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net To: Vortex-L vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 12:01 PM Subject: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device This post is just to check my understanding of the supposed structure of the Rossi device. As I understand it, the device elements, in cross section of the reactor portion, are annular in nature, radially symmetric, except for the band heaters which roughly approximate radial symmetry. The following layers comprise the cross section, from innermost to outermost: 1. Reactor material with hydrogen 2. Steel reactor container 3. Water 4. Copper outer jacket 5. Band heater resistors driven by 220 V 6. A lead shield 7. Insulation An exception to the above is there is a resistance heater located in or around the steel reactor container? There are temperature sensors in the device which allow the controller to individually apply current to the resistance heating elements. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
Horace, What is unseen remains a matter of conjecture. T On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: This post is just to check my understanding of the supposed structure of the Rossi device. As I understand it, the device elements, in cross section of the reactor portion, are annular in nature, radially symmetric, except for the band heaters which roughly approximate radial symmetry. The following layers comprise the cross section, from innermost to outermost: 1. Reactor material with hydrogen 2. Steel reactor container 3. Water 4. Copper outer jacket 5. Band heater resistors driven by 220 V 6. A lead shield 7. Insulation An exception to the above is there is a resistance heater located in or around the steel reactor container? There are temperature sensors in the device which allow the controller to individually apply current to the resistance heating elements. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
At 09:01 AM 9/1/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: This post is just to check my understanding of the supposed structure of the Rossi device. I think that this (speculative!) diagram best shows the location of the heating resistors. http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3724appendixc8.shtml or my hacked version -- http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/NET-MechEng-Effective-MethodFULL-C.png Links have been posted to manufacturer's information for both the collar resistor and the probe resistor. The latter is available in sizes up to several kW.
Re: [Vo]:Structure of Rossi device
On Sep 1, 2011, at 1:07 PM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 09:01 AM 9/1/2011, Horace Heffner wrote: This post is just to check my understanding of the supposed structure of the Rossi device. I think that this (speculative!) diagram best shows the location of the heating resistors. http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/3724appendixc8.shtml or my hacked version -- http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/NET-MechEng-Effective-MethodFULL-C.png Links have been posted to manufacturer's information for both the collar resistor and the probe resistor. The latter is available in sizes up to several kW. Thanks for taking the time to post this. This seems to match the shape (external shape anyway) of the E-cats as they were at one point: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VIn_mQi1H-M/TZ1ZIpKD4-I/LAE/ xo1T4ZRm41o/s1600/ECAT_explained.jpg It is difficult to determine if lead shielding was used, but it does appear there is a sheet of material showing on the back end underneath the foil of the wrapped one. The melting point of lead is 327°C, so that would put a limit on the temperature of the outside resistors. The E-cats as demonstrated in Krivit's video are here at time 1:42: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E I see the tall large diameter chimney has been replaced with a short one. Perhaps just the fat part was removed, leaving the short narrow vertical tube. The central bulge does not look to be as large a diameter either, but there is no way to tell how thick the insulation is at various points. The total power of resisters (in your drawing) at 300 W + 300 W = 600 W seems low. Rossi states in Krivit's film he is using 748 watts, from which I did the following computations: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/KrivitFilm.pdf In another demo the power was up over 1000 W. I don't see wiring for any sensors that the controller might use in the above photo. There is a white cable coming out of the back right side in the film. It is not possible to tell if sensor wires are included in the white cables along with the power wires. As Terry Blanton stated, What is unseen remains a matter of conjecture. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
