Re: [Vo]:Tritium generation in LENR

[Bob Cook]

Jones--


You should review the scope of NRC's authority.


IMHO NRC regulates "by products" of nuclear fission reactors, but not tritium 
produced by other methods.  Thus radioactive materials naturally occurring that 
are not fissile materials are not regulated.  Tritium resulting from LENR is 
not regulated by NRC IMHO.


However a device producing neutrons may very well be regulated by NRC, since it 
could be considered a device for the production of fissile materials--for 
example, Pu-239 from U-238 or U-233 from Th-232.   With this in mind I would be 
surprised to see an invention in the unclassified arena that involves 
production of neutrons.


A wise LENR inventor should avoid producing neutrons by his invention.


Bob Cook




From: Jones Beene 
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 7:30 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Tritium generation in LENR


Speaking of the Sun-Cell and its early commercialization...

Tritium generation is the gold standard of proof in LENR. There is nothing else 
which comes close to the certainty afforded by finding a reaction which 
produces tritium at lower energy input. But the experiment itself becomes 
radioactive and rather dangerous since tritium is hydrophilic and carcinogenic 
-- and is therefore seldom performed today.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) was created to ensure the safe use of 
radioactive materials for civilian purposes. The NRC regulates all commercial 
uses of nuclear materials, even the small amounts of tritium (micrograms) used 
in nuclear medicine.

The signature of tritium is a well-known beta decay with a short and 
predictable half-life which cannot happen naturally, and also is easy to detect 
with inexpensive meters. Discovery of the tritium signature is thus rock-solid 
proof of a nuclear reaction. The signal has been reported many times in peer 
reviewed experiments from the early days. These experiments have been generally 
ignored by the mainstream.

It may surprise many LENR advocates to learn that one of the first claimants of 
tritium production in light water electrolysis was none other than Randell 
Mills, who published his results in the highly regarded Fusion Technology 
Magazine over twenty-four years ago - long before there was even a company 
called Blacklight Power. Mills of course would love to have the world ignore 
this detail about tritium today, since he wants nothing to do with anything 
that smacks of "nuclear" and wishes to portray the Sun Cell as completely 
non-nuclear.

Yet the possibility that tritium occurs as an inherent result of the Mills 
effect will not be erased until he permits an independent observer to monitor 
the experiment for tritium (which has not happened). Any level of secrecy 
creates a problem for eventual certification of the Sun Cell - if it should 
bring the results into the purview of the NRC.

BTW - the legacy of tritium discovery by Mills lives on in US Patent 6,024,935 
- where the inventor himself quotes many varied and different sources to 
support the discovery of tritium in nickel-light water electrolysis (curiously 
ignoring Claytor and LANL) in favor of:

1)  Notoya, "Tritium Generation . . . Nickel Electrodes", Fusion 
Technology, vol. 26.

2)  Oka, et. al., "D2O-fueled fusion power reactor using 
electromagnetically induced...Deuterium-tritium reactions-- Fusion Technology, 
vol. 16, No. 2, Sep. 1989, pp. 263-267.

3)  Srinivasan, et. al., "Tritium and Excess Heat Generation during 
Electrolysis of Aqueous Solutions of Alkali Salts with Nickel Cathode", 3rd 
Annual Conference on Cold Fusion.

4)  Chien, et. al., "On an Electrode . . . Tritium and Helium", J. 
Electroanal Chem., 1992, pp. 189-212.

5)  Storms, et. al., "Electroyltic Tritium Production", Fusion Technology, 
vol. 17, Jul. 1990, pp. 680-695.

RE: [Vo]:Tritium generation in LENR

[Jones Beene]

Bob,

 

Mills uses water as his source of hydrogen. The water is recycled in the 
device. If tritium is being produced, then it will accumulate in the water. 
Tritium will always displace a proton to form tritiated water which then glows 
when a phosphor is added to the water. 

 

Anyone given a vial of water from the Sun Cell can perform a simple luminosity 
test in a darkened room. This would determine only that some (any) source of 
radioactivity is present – not necessarily tritium. Nevertheless, it provides a 
prima facie case for tritium, since no other radioactive species would be 
suspected in the water. I can think of few simpler tests. From there on, it 
gets more complicated – so what? The case has been made for nuclear energy, 
over and above anything related to a putative hydrino - and that means a lot.

 

From: Bob Higgins 

 

Jones, 

While I agree 100% that tritium is one of the most convincing evidences for 
LENR, I beg to differ on your ease of detection comment for tritium:

>> The signature of tritium is a well-known beta decay with a short and 
>> predictable half-life which cannot happen naturally, and also is easy to 
>> detect with inexpensive meters. 

The low energy beta particles will not penetrate the device (metal or glass) 
holding the tritium gas, nor will the beta particles easily be detected in low 
concentration in the atmosphere (you do not want to be in a position to have 
tritium in the atmosphere).  Also, once in the atmosphere, tritium will diffuse 
extremely quickly, reducing the local concentration to a small level 
(thankfully).  Thus, detection of tritium via GM tubes is impractical.  Tritium 
is also extremely difficult to detect in a mass spectrometer due to the ionic 
interferers, such as HD.  The gold standard for tritium detection is to 
catalyze it into T2O and mix into a solution having a liquid beta scintillator. 
 Then this container with the scintillator and the T2O is placed inside a 
closed photomultiplier sensor where the beta produced scintillations are 
counted - for many hours.  The count provides the tritium concentration.  It is 
not a capability you would find in many laboratories.

 

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:

Speaking of the Sun-Cell and its early commercialization…

Tritium generation is the gold standard of proof in LENR. There is nothing else 
which comes close to the certainty afforded by finding a reaction which 
produces tritium at lower energy input. But the experiment itself becomes 
radioactive and rather dangerous since tritium is hydrophilic and carcinogenic 
-- and is therefore seldom performed today.

The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) was created to ensure the safe use of 
radioactive materials for civilian purposes. The NRC regulates all commercial 
uses of nuclear materials, even the small amounts of tritium (micrograms) used 
in nuclear medicine.

The signature of tritium is a well-known beta decay with a short and 
predictable half-life which cannot happen naturally, and also is easy to detect 
with inexpensive meters. Discovery of the tritium signature is thus rock-solid 
proof of a nuclear reaction. The signal has been reported many times in peer 
reviewed experiments from the early days. These experiments have been generally 
ignored by the mainstream.

It may surprise many LENR advocates to learn that one of the first claimants of 
tritium production in light water electrolysis was none other than Randell 
Mills, who published his results in the highly regarded Fusion Technology 
Magazine over twenty-four years ago – long before there was even a company 
called Blacklight Power. Mills of course would love to have the world ignore 
this detail about tritium today, since he wants nothing to do with anything 
that smacks of “nuclear” and wishes to portray the Sun Cell as completely 
non-nuclear. 

Yet the possibility that tritium occurs as an inherent result of the Mills 
effect will not be erased until he permits an independent observer to monitor 
the experiment for tritium (which has not happened). Any level of secrecy 
creates a problem for eventual certification of the Sun Cell - if it should 
bring the results into the purview of the NRC. 

BTW - the legacy of tritium discovery by Mills lives on in US Patent 6,024,935 
- where the inventor himself quotes many varied and different sources to 
support the discovery of tritium in nickel-light water electrolysis (curiously 
ignoring Claytor and LANL) in favor of:

1)  Notoya, "Tritium Generation . . . Nickel Electrodes", Fusion 
Technology, vol. 26. 

2)  Oka, et. al., "D2O-fueled fusion power reactor using 
electromagnetically induced…Deuterium-tritium reactions-- Fusion Technology, 
vol. 16, No. 2, Sep. 1989, pp. 263-267.

3)  Srinivasan, et. al., "Tritium and Excess Heat Generation during 
Electrolysis of Aqueous Solutions of Alkali Salts with Nickel Cathode", 3rd 
Annual Conference on Cold Fusion.

Re: [Vo]:Tritium generation in LENR

[Bob Higgins]

Jones,

While I agree 100% that tritium is one of the most convincing evidences for
LENR, I beg to differ on your ease of detection comment for tritium:

>> The signature of tritium is a well-known beta decay with a short and
predictable half-life which cannot happen naturally, and also is easy to
detect with inexpensive meters.

The low energy beta particles will not penetrate the device (metal or
glass) holding the tritium gas, nor will the beta particles easily be
detected in low concentration in the atmosphere (you do not want to be in a
position to have tritium in the atmosphere).  Also, once in the atmosphere,
tritium will diffuse extremely quickly, reducing the local concentration to
a small level (thankfully).  Thus, detection of tritium via GM tubes is
impractical.  Tritium is also extremely difficult to detect in a mass
spectrometer due to the ionic interferers, such as HD.  The gold standard
for tritium detection is to catalyze it into T2O and mix into a solution
having a liquid beta scintillator.  Then this container with the
scintillator and the T2O is placed inside a closed photomultiplier sensor
where the beta produced scintillations are counted - for many hours.  The
count provides the tritium concentration.  It is not a capability you would
find in many laboratories.

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Jones Beene  wrote:

> Speaking of the Sun-Cell and its early commercialization…
>
> Tritium generation is the gold standard of proof in LENR. There is
> nothing else which comes close to the certainty afforded by finding a
> reaction which produces tritium at lower energy input. But the experiment
> itself becomes radioactive and rather dangerous since tritium is
> hydrophilic and carcinogenic -- and is therefore seldom performed today.
>
> The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) was created to ensure the safe use
> of radioactive materials for civilian purposes. The NRC regulates all 
> commercial
> uses of nuclear materials, even the small amounts of tritium (micrograms)
> used in nuclear medicine.
>
> The signature of tritium is a well-known beta decay with a short and
> predictable half-life which cannot happen naturally, and also is easy to
> detect with inexpensive meters. Discovery of the tritium signature is thus 
> rock-solid
> proof of a nuclear reaction. The signal has been reported many times in
> peer reviewed experiments from the early days. These experiments have
> been generally ignored by the mainstream.
>
> It may surprise many LENR advocates to learn that one of the first
> claimants of tritium production in light water electrolysis was none
> other than Randell Mills, who published his results in the highly regarded
> Fusion Technology Magazine over twenty-four years ago – long before there
> was even a company called Blacklight Power. Mills of course would love to
> have the world ignore this detail about tritium today, since he wants
> nothing to do with anything that smacks of “nuclear” and wishes to
> portray the Sun Cell as completely non-nuclear.
>
> Yet the possibility that tritium occurs as an inherent result of the
> Mills effect will not be erased until he permits an independent observer
> to monitor the experiment for tritium (which has not happened). Any level
> of secrecy creates a problem for eventual certification of the Sun Cell - if
> it should bring the results into the purview of the NRC.
>
> BTW - the legacy of tritium discovery by Mills lives on in US Patent
> 6,024,935 - where the inventor himself quotes many varied and different
> sources to support the discovery of tritium in nickel-light water
> electrolysis (curiously ignoring Claytor and LANL) in favor of:
>
> 1)  Notoya, "Tritium Generation . . . Nickel Electrodes",* Fusion
> Technology*, vol. 26.
>
> 2)  Oka, et. al., "D2O-fueled fusion power reactor using 
> electromagnetically
> induced…Deuterium-tritium reactions--* Fusion Technology*, vol. 16, No.
> 2, Sep. 1989, pp. 263-267.
>
> 3)  Srinivasan, et. al., "Tritium and Excess Heat Generation during
> Electrolysis of Aqueous Solutions of Alkali Salts with Nickel Cathode", 3rd
> Annual Conference on Cold Fusion.
>
> 4)  Chien, et. al., "On an Electrode . . . Tritium and Helium",* J.
> Electroanal Chem.*, 1992, pp. 189-212.
>
> 5)  Storms, et. al., "Electroyltic Tritium Production",* Fusion
> Technology*, vol. 17, Jul. 1990, pp. 680-695.
>