Re: [vos-d] C#
On 3/12/06, Peter Amstutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, a while back :-D : If I were to develop in C# in my own projects, I would used the freesoftware implementation, Mono.Hmmm, that's possibly a good idea :-D ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] [philosophical] VOS as AI
Something I've been thinking about a lot is replication and migration ofcomputation.If a VOS AI bot could upload itself to other servers (givenproper credentials, of course) it could quite literally wander from server to server, well beyond the purview of the creator.Unlike a virus orworm, it would retain memories of what it had seen and done, so it couldlearn as it travels.VOS would provide the environment for this new kind of artifical life. Whoa, that sounds like Skyn*carrier lost*Peter, this sounds awesome. ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] makehuman
Ben wrote: It can't be cool, it's C ;-) C dlls are pretty easy to wrap with managed code, as long as there arent too many structures or arrays flying around in the interface. Peter wrote: They're rewriting it in C++, I'm not sure if that helps or hurts the cause Hurts, as you guessed. C dlls are rather easy to integrate into .Net applications in any language. C++ need to be wrapped with a managed C++ wrapper. On 3/17/06, Peter Amstutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1They're rewriting it in C++, I'm not sure if that helps or hurts the cause:-)On Fri, 17 Mar 2006, Benjamin Mesing wrote: This is incredibly cool. It can't be cool, it's C ;-) Ben[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey:pgpkeys.mit.edu18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFEGtAPaeHUyhjCHfcRAu9JAJ9cEIkgBpsiNeI7W2wp9P/5XN9NdwCgmLlZ UnLopigHLXC1n3bwEU4Gn8I==0qle-END PGP SIGNATURE-___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] makehuman
Peter, This is incredibly cool. On 3/15/06, Peter Amstutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1I had heard about this as a plugin to Blender, but in fact it is a standalone GPL'd C library for constructing humanoid characters:http://www.dedalo-3d.com/index.php?filename=SXCOL/makehuman/abstract.html This is absolutely something we want to incorporate into VOS for a futureavatar construction kit...[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED]][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ] [ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey:pgpkeys.mit.edu18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFEFy42aeHUyhjCHfcRAhCzAJjTPsTw7N+r5aVBWvTOMtMijhgtAKCaJfXhhLjuzYFe6v0KgGCrqswEvA===Wpac-END PGP SIGNATURE-___vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Re: [OFF] typing
Lalo, On 3/14/06, Lalo Martins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And you can constrain even that using slots.If you're interested,contact me in private :-) otherwise, just record the fact that it's possible.(A class with slots makes all attribute assignments failunless the attribute name is in the slots list.) Hmmm, that does sound like it resolves this issue. Perhaps it's this simple? I guess there is one other thing I like about C# compared with using Python, which is that once you've compiled it you know you're not going to wait for the application to load, start trying some command, and Boom! you mistyped a variable name, and the program dies... Is there some way to force Python to compile everything right at the start? ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Swig
Yeah, Neil is 100% right. FWIW, I'm using Scite as my editor, and lescript as my build tool. Scite: http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html lescript: http://manageddreams.com/utils/lescriptmar9.zip Lescript lets you use C# as though it is a scripting language, ie you can do: C:\ lescript --nologohelloworld.cs Hello World! C:\ You need to have .Net Framework 1.1runtimeinstalled to use lescript ( http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=262d25e3-f589-4842-8157-034d1e7cf3a3DisplayLang=en ) Hugh http://manageddreams.com On 3/13/06, Neil Mosafi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That it costs anything is a common misconception: The Microsoft C# compiler comes for free with Windows. You can download the Visual Studio 2005 Express Editions for free for a year. You can download other integrated development enviroments for free (such as SharpDevelop) You canbuild C# in Mono for free, which also runs on Linux which is a free OS. All the MSDN documentation is available for free online. So altogether, it is highly possible to spend no money and build C# apps. ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Re: Swig
Hi Lalo, Yes, you're right, for many applications weak typing is better, because it produces more compact, easier to read code.On 3/13/06, Lalo Martins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:And so says Hugh Perkins on 12/03/06 14:27... Just to throw some salt in the wounds of the Python discussions, I cant help thinking that C# has all the advantages of both Python (run from source, easy to read) and C++ (strong typing, runs quickly). agreeing to that would require me to agree that strong typing is anadvantage :-) I think it's a serious weakness.best, Lalo Martins-- ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Swig
Hmmm, After playing around a little with C#, I have to agree with Neil: C# rocks. Just to throw some salt in the wounds of the Python discussions, I cant help thinking that C# has all the advantages of both Python (run from source, easy to read) and C++ (strong typing, runs quickly). Btw, OSMP is now available in a C# version ;-) http://manageddreams.com/osmpbb/viewtopic.php?t=333 On 9/2/05, Neil Mosafi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, not had much practise with managed C++ as I'm lazy and C# is so much easier (!), but I guessmanaged C++ could be the way to go for integrating with VOS as it can fully utilise the C++ classes. Still there'd be work required to make the API more .net like ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] C#
Hi Peter, C# runs from source? What?? While the compiler is in fact part of theruntime (so there are APIs to load and compile source on the fly) it stillis generally statically compiled. Good to see you spotted my intentionally controversial comment ;-) So, as you say C# is a compiled language, not an interpreted one; however there are two characteristics about the C# compiler that make this distinction somewhat academic: - the C# compiler, and everything needed to use it (libraries, ...) is included with thebasic .Net Framework runtime - the C# compiler runs *very* fast. To illustrate that second assertion, thatC# compiler runs fast, here's a comparison. OSMP C++ edition will build in around 30-60 minutes, depending on your machine. OSMP C# will build in between 500ms and 10 seconds, depending on your machine. That's fast enough that OSMP C# does actually run from source-code, using lescript, at application start-up. On 3/12/06, Peter Amstutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1On Sun, 12 Mar 2006, Hugh Perkins wrote: Hmmm, After playing around a little with C#, I have to agree with Neil: C# rocks.At my work we have a large (300,000+ line) application written mostly inC# and C++ (managed and unmanaged projects).On the whole I would say C# is very good, particularly now that in .NET 2.0 they have introducedcross-langauge generics.At work all our new code is written in C# thesedays. Just to throw some salt in the wounds of the Python discussions, I cant help thinking that C# has all the advantages of both Python (run from source, easy to read) and C++ (strong typing, runs quickly).C# runs from source?What?? While the compiler is in fact part of the runtime (so there are APIs to load and compile source on the fly) it stillis generally statically compiled. Btw, OSMP is now available in a C# version ;-) http://manageddreams.com/osmpbb/viewtopic.php?t=333Neat.What are you using for your 3D engine?If I were to develop in C# in my own projects, I would used the freesoftware implementation, Mono.However I have not looked at it yet, so I can't comment whether it is any good.The biggest concern I have with C#as a language for developing free software is cross-platform support --Microsoft and Mono don't have the same APIs and the runtime system just isn't a standard component on non-Windows platforms.Making VOS accessable in .NET (either binding the C++ library or actuallyreimplementing it) is something I have given some thought to.However,nobody has specifically asked for it yet, and we've already got a TODO list a mile long...[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED]][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet] [ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFEE9JlaeHUyhjCHfcRAiOLAKCsZ6Nt3Pb9f8iK5RzkaOhUuWF/0ACgiYvy5LHKtPAkh5H5iQKFthguaN4==CfXg-END PGP SIGNATURE- ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] Web 3D Graphics Formats
Interesting, Hugh On 9/25/05, Reed Hedges [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A comparison of Google searches for VRML, X3D, Shockwave3D and AdobeAtmosphere: http://www.karmanaut.com/virtuality/zeitgeist/VRML comes out way ahead, followed by X3D. Both are actually increasing.Shockwave and Atmosphere are no longer supported by Macromedia or Adobeand are losing. ___vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] struggling with Windows...
msvcrt.dll is the old pre-.net dll, msvcr71.dll is the .net dll The import libraries have teh same name in each case (msvcrt.lib, msvcprt.lib) but point towards a differently named dll, one of those above, depending on the compiler version.On 8/15/05, Peter Amstutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, res wrote: Don't know if you have tried yet, but check out gdb-6.3 (from mingw.org, a bit down the downloads list). I had to do some (little) debugging recently, and while gdb-5.something failed to get CS plugin debug info, 6.3 worked well in this regard.Ok, good suggestion.I'll look into that.By the way, when I run anything in gdb, I get the following warning over and over and over again:SIGTRAP:Invalid Address specified to RtlFreeHeap( XX, XX )I thought maybe it was the multiple-heaps issue with Windows DLLs, exceptthat a) I can continue and it doesn't crash and b) I'm pretty sure mingw compiles everything against the same C runtime DLL (msvcrt.dll), so thereshould only *be* one heap.Have you ever seen this before? There are the Debugging Tools which also contain a GUI debugger, WinDbg. I never used it, though.Aha, I'll look for that. The VC 2003 Toolkit is limited in other regards, too. For example, it doesn't get shipped with the libraries to link with the DLL version of the C runtime (msvcr71.dll). If you google around, you'll find instructions and workarounds to use the VC Toolkit for a number of OSS projects - but it seems it's actually a bit of work to get the VC Toolkit properly support a project.What's the difference between msvcrt.dll and msvcr71.dll?I thought thelatter is just a newer version shipped with the newer compiler, or is itmore complicated than that? What limits do you mean? At least CrystalSpace compiles with it. There were some rough edges first, though, but I eventually sorted them out.Well, specifically the inability to add include search paths, so I couldn't point it at the Win32 SDK.I eventually googled and found theinstructions on a Microsoft developers fucking BLOG (great documentationguys), but when I tried it it didn't work (although I didn't spend that much time tinkering with it).I would very much appreciate some hints on how to compile Crystal Spacewith VC++ Express Beta 2.[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED]][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey:pgpkeys.mit.edu18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFDAL8GaeHUyhjCHfcRAp8aAJ92nMVuqajQwGtmt5RU4aNFQg5AiQCfTpfuJxhmBL9/T0FP5NRAbjVMQG4==FjBl-END PGP SIGNATURE-___ vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] struggling with Windows...
It's almost like Microsoft is trying to discourage distributed development (typical of free software) Yeah, it sucks, but hey theres a lot of people out there using Windows, and thats not going to change overnight. Hi Hugh, haven't heard from you in a while.Last I heard you had been sucked into the World of Warcraft?:-) Back in Paris, took my old job back for a few months for the summer. Hugh On 8/15/05, Peter Amstutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1Hi Hugh, haven't heard from you in a while.Last I heard you had beensucked into the World of Warcraft?:-)On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Hugh Perkins wrote: windebug works ok.Its free, and it basically does everything that the full Visual Studio debugger does.Obviously it only works with msvc-compiled objects.Well, it's still a step up from no debugger at all. You can get the C runtime by installing .net runtime followed by .net sdk (in that order).It will appear in c:\program files\microsoft .net sdk (something like that, but definitely on C:, in program files), independent of the directory you actually chose to install the .net sdk into. The C++ runtime is a little trickier to get.Theres a CERN site that has the import library for download. http://root.cern.ch/root/Procedure/Procedure%20to%20install%20the%20free%20Microsoft%20Visual%20C.htm Argh.Why do they make this so complicated? Other than that, the visual C++ toolkit is the full, optimizing compiler that comes with Visual Studio .Net professional/enterprise. You can use Cygwin/mingw to use msvc compiler from a configure file, by using cccl.On the other hand cygwin and mingw have unresolved issues with forking not releasing memory on certain windows xp machines (independent of which compiler is used), so using gnumake could be more reliable.I tried cccl and couldn't get it to do anything useful, so what I ended updoing was writing a makefile script that ran from automake files and produced nmake files.A nice hack and actually worked pretty well, butall in all nmake is fairly useless and most people would prefer to avoidit.What might make more sense would be to do something similar that automatically produces visual studio project files.Of course, then youget into the issue of what _version_ project files you generate, since VS7.1 is not backwards compatible with 7.0, which is not backwards compatible with 6.0.I don't know if VS 8.0 (.NET 2005) projects arecompatible with 7.1. Theres some detailed info on the Visual C++ Toolkit at http://manageddreams.com/osmpwiki/index.php?title=Notes_on_Microsoft_Visual_CPP_Toolkit_2003It's almost like Microsoft is trying to discourage distributed development(typical of free software) by making it impossible for any given group of people to be able to collaborate unless they're using exactly the sameversion of exactly the same compiler... ***Argh!!!***[ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED]][Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet][ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ][ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey:pgpkeys.mit.edu18C21DF7 ]-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFDAMIpaeHUyhjCHfcRAiUjAJ4jE8oVy22WVcd+TO31Z4ZZb43oBQCeISPer6OBWp6avJfaH/OKT9rWeV4==/ecl-END PGP SIGNATURE-___ vos-d mailing listvos-d@interreality.orghttp://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
