Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Darin Adler]

> On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:30 AM, Martin Robinson  wrote:
> 
> request that the work be done using cross-platform abstractions, so that it 
> can be shared

I looked at http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/173521 and I didn’t see anything 
platform-specific there.

So I think we’re already on the right track.

— Darin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Martin Robinson]

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:54 PM, Myles C. Maxfield  wrote:
> With this in mind, my original question should make more sense - are there 
> any ports who want support for SVG fonts but whose platforms don’t support 
> OpenType? It sounds like the GTK platform supports OTF, which means they are 
> likely okay with this proposal. mrobinson: is that correct?

Thanks for the clarification. All platforms that WebKitGTK+ supports
have OpenType support, so the plan will likely work for us.

--Martin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Myles C. Maxfield]

Sorry for all the confusion on this. Let me clarify the proposal:

I am not proposing dropping support for SVG fonts. I am proposing transcoding 
SVG fonts on-the-fly, at page-load time, to OpenType fonts, then delivering the 
OpenType fonts to the underlying platform (just as if the original page was 
using a web OTF font in the first place).

100% of this work is platform-agnostic.

Once this converter is in place, it will mean that we can remove all of our 
custom SVG-font-rendering code in WebCore (because the platform will be 
responsible for drawing the text instead of WebCore), which would be a very 
good thing for the many reasons listed earlier.

With this in mind, my original question should make more sense - are there any 
ports who want support for SVG fonts but whose platforms don’t support 
OpenType? It sounds like the GTK platform supports OTF, which means they are 
likely okay with this proposal. mrobinson: is that correct?

Thanks,
Myles

> On Sep 15, 2014, at 10:30 AM, Martin Robinson  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Tim Horton  wrote:
>> On 2014.09.14, at 01:11, Dirk Schulze  wrote:
>>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Martin Robinson  wrote:
 WebKitGTK+ supports OpenType natively and I as far as I know we have
 no problems dropping support for SVG fonts. If SVG fonts are supported
 by the Mac port though, we will probably still want to maintain
 support for our own port, if possible.
>>> 
>>> SVG Fonts live in the non-platform WebCore space. Dropping support for one 
>>> platform but keeping the code around for another wouldn’t be of any benefit 
>>> for WebCore as a whole.
>> 
>> Agreed (but I don’t think the original email was suggesting that; pretty 
>> sure Myles was just gauging whether there were any ports that don’t have OT 
>> support but need SVG fonts, which would preclude switching over to the 
>> translation approach).
> 
> Sorry. I probably should have been less obscure about this, but this
> was a gentle request that the work be done using cross-platform
> abstractions, so that it can be shared. If that's difficult or
> impossible, we'll figure something else out. :)
> 
> --Martin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Martin Robinson]

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Tim Horton  wrote:
> On 2014.09.14, at 01:11, Dirk Schulze  wrote:
>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Martin Robinson  wrote:
>>> WebKitGTK+ supports OpenType natively and I as far as I know we have
>>> no problems dropping support for SVG fonts. If SVG fonts are supported
>>> by the Mac port though, we will probably still want to maintain
>>> support for our own port, if possible.
>>
>> SVG Fonts live in the non-platform WebCore space. Dropping support for one 
>> platform but keeping the code around for another wouldn’t be of any benefit 
>> for WebCore as a whole.
>
> Agreed (but I don’t think the original email was suggesting that; pretty sure 
> Myles was just gauging whether there were any ports that don’t have OT 
> support but need SVG fonts, which would preclude switching over to the 
> translation approach).

Sorry. I probably should have been less obscure about this, but this
was a gentle request that the work be done using cross-platform
abstractions, so that it can be shared. If that's difficult or
impossible, we'll figure something else out. :)

--Martin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Tim Horton]

On 2014.09.14, at 01:11, Dirk Schulze  wrote:

> 
> On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Martin Robinson  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Myles C. Maxfield  
>> wrote:
>>> My question to WebKit-Dev is: Are there any ports who:
>>> 1) Want continued support for SVG fonts, and
>>> 2) Whose platforms do not support OpenType fonts natively?
>> 
>> WebKitGTK+ supports OpenType natively and I as far as I know we have
>> no problems dropping support for SVG fonts. If SVG fonts are supported
>> by the Mac port though, we will probably still want to maintain
>> support for our own port, if possible.
> 
> SVG Fonts live in the non-platform WebCore space. Dropping support for one 
> platform but keeping the code around for another wouldn’t be of any benefit 
> for WebCore as a whole.

Agreed (but I don’t think the original email was suggesting that; pretty sure 
Myles was just gauging whether there were any ports that don’t have OT support 
but need SVG fonts, which would preclude switching over to the translation 
approach).

> Adobe’s TypeKit team dropped support for SVG Fonts a couple of months ago and 
> got very view complains. OT should be supported for WebKitGTK+ from the 
> beginning and is a better replacement for WebCore’s SVG Font implementation 
> in any possible way. It is much less likely that content for WebKitGTK+ uses 
> SVG Fonts than for content for iOS. And even Apple seems to be willing to 
> drop support now.

As mentioned recently, we probably can’t drop support outright, but if Myles’ 
experiment with translating straightforward (no color/animation/etc.) SVG fonts 
to OpenType and rendering them that way pans out (which it seems like it’s 
going to), we can remove a good deal of scary code and do it that way instead 
(that should cover most-if-not-all of the cases that block us from removing 
support entirely).

> Greetings,
> Dirk
> 
>> 
>> --Martin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Dirk Schulze]

On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Martin Robinson  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Myles C. Maxfield  
> wrote:
>> My question to WebKit-Dev is: Are there any ports who:
>> 1) Want continued support for SVG fonts, and
>> 2) Whose platforms do not support OpenType fonts natively?
> 
> WebKitGTK+ supports OpenType natively and I as far as I know we have
> no problems dropping support for SVG fonts. If SVG fonts are supported
> by the Mac port though, we will probably still want to maintain
> support for our own port, if possible.

SVG Fonts live in the non-platform WebCore space. Dropping support for one 
platform but keeping the code around for another wouldn’t be of any benefit for 
WebCore as a whole.

Adobe’s TypeKit team dropped support for SVG Fonts a couple of months ago and 
got very view complains. OT should be supported for WebKitGTK+ from the 
beginning and is a better replacement for WebCore’s SVG Font implementation in 
any possible way. It is much less likely that content for WebKitGTK+ uses SVG 
Fonts than for content for iOS. And even Apple seems to be willing to drop 
support now.

Greetings,
Dirk

> 
> --Martin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Dirk Schulze]

Previous attempts to drop SVG Fonts failed because SVG Fonts were used in older 
iOS version without WOFF support a lot. My latest unofficial/informal attempt 
was a couple of weeks ago by asking one Apple representative. What changed 
since then?

Greetings,
Dirk

On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Martin Robinson  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Myles C. Maxfield  
> wrote:
>> My question to WebKit-Dev is: Are there any ports who:
>> 1) Want continued support for SVG fonts, and
>> 2) Whose platforms do not support OpenType fonts natively?
> 
> WebKitGTK+ supports OpenType natively and I as far as I know we have
> no problems dropping support for SVG fonts. If SVG fonts are supported
> by the Mac port though, we will probably still want to maintain
> support for our own port, if possible.
> 
> --Martin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Martin Robinson]

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Myles C. Maxfield  wrote:
> My question to WebKit-Dev is: Are there any ports who:
> 1) Want continued support for SVG fonts, and
> 2) Whose platforms do not support OpenType fonts natively?

WebKitGTK+ supports OpenType natively and I as far as I know we have
no problems dropping support for SVG fonts. If SVG fonts are supported
by the Mac port though, we will probably still want to maintain
support for our own port, if possible.

--Martin
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Re: [webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Dan Bernstein]

> On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Myles C. Maxfield  wrote:
> 
> Hello, Webkittens!
> 
> I have started work on an SVG font -> OpenType converter [1] with the intent 
> of eventually getting rid of our code path which lays out and draws text 
> using SVG fonts. The motivation is fourfold:
> 
> 1) Performance: on OS X the native text libraries are over 1000x faster than 
> our SVG code path.
> 2) Security: There have been numerous security bugs in the SVG font code path.
> 3) Code clarity: This would greatly simplify the text rendering code.
> 4) The next version of SVG is removing SVG fonts completely [2]. Chrome has 
> recently dropped support for SVG fonts [3] and Firefox/IE never had it [4] 
> [5].

5) Correctness: using an SVG font will no longer mean you don’t get subpixel 
antialiasing (and perhaps other text effects?)
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[webkit-dev] Port-specific OpenType support

[Myles C. Maxfield]

Hello, Webkittens!

I have started work on an SVG font -> OpenType converter [1] with the intent of 
eventually getting rid of our code path which lays out and draws text using SVG 
fonts. The motivation is fourfold:

1) Performance: on OS X the native text libraries are over 1000x faster than 
our SVG code path.
2) Security: There have been numerous security bugs in the SVG font code path.
3) Code clarity: This would greatly simplify the text rendering code.
4) The next version of SVG is removing SVG fonts completely [2]. Chrome has 
recently dropped support for SVG fonts [3] and Firefox/IE never had it [4] [5].

My question to WebKit-Dev is: Are there any ports who:
1) Want continued support for SVG fonts, and
2) Whose platforms do not support OpenType fonts natively?

Thanks,
Myles C. Maxfield

[1] http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/173521 

[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG2/fonts.html 
[3] 
https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!msg/blink-dev/pYbbUcYvlYY/LQvFvM8KZZEJ
 

[4] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=119490 

[5] http://caniuse.com/#feat=svg-fonts 
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