Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-02 Thread Maciej Stachowiak

On Sep 1, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Dirk Pranke wrote:

> I suspect that Maciej is right and whatever speedup we would see would
> be inconsequential. It's still a slightly cleaner design to not have
> to shell out to Ruby from Python, jumping from one scripting language
> to another. The deadlocking issue is a serious issue, blocking us from
> increasing our usage of new-run-webkit-tests, but simply porting
> PrettyPatch isn't going to fix it (for the record, I am actively
> working on fixing the deadlocking issue).
> 
> But until we can put a stake into old-run-webkit-tests, we can't
> delete the ruby version anyway (well, I guess we could shell out from
> Perl to Python, but that would be only slightly less goofy).

PrettyPatch is also used by our bugzilla setup, which has no prospect of either 
going away or being rewritten from Perl to Python in the near feature. And it's 
useful standalone for other purposes. So there definitely needs to be a 
command-line version, even if there is also a library.

Regards,
Maciej

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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread Dirk Pranke
I suspect that Maciej is right and whatever speedup we would see would
be inconsequential. It's still a slightly cleaner design to not have
to shell out to Ruby from Python, jumping from one scripting language
to another. The deadlocking issue is a serious issue, blocking us from
increasing our usage of new-run-webkit-tests, but simply porting
PrettyPatch isn't going to fix it (for the record, I am actively
working on fixing the deadlocking issue).

But until we can put a stake into old-run-webkit-tests, we can't
delete the ruby version anyway (well, I guess we could shell out from
Perl to Python, but that would be only slightly less goofy).

-- Dirk

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Ryosuke Niwa  wrote:
> Oh, I didn't see your second post either.  Sounds like porting everything
> into Python would speed up new-run-webkit-tests?  Then I'm all for it.  I
> think other folks would be equally convinced as well if you could kindly
> measure the time difference between Ruby + Python + shell script
> implementation vs Python implementation.
> - Ryosuke
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Dirk Pranke  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sam,
>>
>> Did you see the reply I sent on this thread? There are actually decent
>> reasons to rewrite the code into Python, to simplify and speed up the
>> new-run-webkit-tests implementation. Given that, do you still object
>> to the patch landing (since the work has already been done)?
>>
>> -- Dirk
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Sam Weinig  wrote:
>> > Sorry, I seemed to have missed this thread.  Please do not rewrite
>> > scripts
>> > just to rewrite them in a language you like. WebKit's dependency on Ruby
>> > is
>> > here to stay. Just because python is common at Google does not make it
>> > universal.
>> > -Sam
>> >
>> > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Thanks.
>> >> So porting PrettyPatch to Python will make good benefit and should have
>> >> no
>> >> drawbacks.  I should go ahead.
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 09:21, William Siegrist 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:43 PM, TAMURA, Kent wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> >   Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes.
>> >>>
>> >>> -Bill
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> TAMURA Kent
>> >> Software Engineer, Google
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
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>> >
>> >
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread Ryosuke Niwa
Oh, I didn't see your second post either.  Sounds like porting everything
into Python would speed up new-run-webkit-tests?  Then I'm all for it.  I
think other folks would be equally convinced as well if you could kindly
measure the time difference between Ruby + Python + shell script
implementation vs Python implementation.

- Ryosuke

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Dirk Pranke  wrote:

> Hi Sam,
>
> Did you see the reply I sent on this thread? There are actually decent
> reasons to rewrite the code into Python, to simplify and speed up the
> new-run-webkit-tests implementation. Given that, do you still object
> to the patch landing (since the work has already been done)?
>
> -- Dirk
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Sam Weinig  wrote:
> > Sorry, I seemed to have missed this thread.  Please do not rewrite
> scripts
> > just to rewrite them in a language you like. WebKit's dependency on Ruby
> is
> > here to stay. Just because python is common at Google does not make it
> > universal.
> > -Sam
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >> So porting PrettyPatch to Python will make good benefit and should have
> no
> >> drawbacks.  I should go ahead.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 09:21, William Siegrist 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:43 PM, TAMURA, Kent wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >   Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?
> >>>
> >>> Yes.
> >>>
> >>> -Bill
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> TAMURA Kent
> >> Software Engineer, Google
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >>
> >
> >
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread Maciej Stachowiak

On Sep 1, 2010, at 10:46 PM, David Levin wrote:

> From reading this thread and the bug, it sounds like there is one key issue 
> installing something new on build machines.
> 
> As discussed before in regards to python, there was a desire not to go above 
> a certain version so that the tiger build machine could run a script. That 
> seemed reasonable to me.
> 
> Similarly there is a desire in this case to avoid Ruby because it means 
> installing something new on other build machines. This also seems reasonable 
> to me.

Hmm, I thought Ruby was a very longstanding dependency for the layout tests but 
it looks like it was a little over a year ago:

2009-04-24  Eric Seidel  

Reviewed by Adam Roben.

Add PrettyPatch support to run-webkit-tests

* Scripts/run-webkit-tests:

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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread Maciej Stachowiak

On Sep 1, 2010, at 9:28 PM, Dirk Pranke wrote:

> Hi Sam,
> 
> Did you see the reply I sent on this thread? There are actually decent
> reasons to rewrite the code into Python, to simplify and speed up the
> new-run-webkit-tests implementation. Given that, do you still object
> to the patch landing (since the work has already been done)?

If there is a practical improvement that is best achieved by rewriting the tool 
in another language, then by all means let's do it. And I would also prefer to 
see fewer different languages used for scripts, since it is hard to be good at 
all of them. (I know Perl a lot better than Python or Ruby, but I would not 
recommend it for new tools.) I do agree with Sam that language rewrites just to 
use a new language are not so great.

I am mildly skeptical that using PrettyPatch as a library is a major 
performance win, since in the common case of running tests there are few 
failures so it should not need to be invoked many times. (If it is invoked even 
for tests that didn't fail, then a much better performance improvement would be 
to not do that.) My skepticism would be 100% cured by a measurement of the 
actual performance improvement.

I also note that the "make new-run-webkit-tests faster" motivation was not 
cited at all in the bug, just a "reduce dependencies" motivation, which doesn't 
seem well-aligned with where we are currently. If this was our only Ruby script 
I might feel differently.

I think for new tools, we should definitely encourage a particular language, 
not just make it a free-for-all. And Python seems like the most plausible 
candidate going forward (Perl is too crufty and Ruby is less popular without 
being clearly better). OTOH it seems like some third-party tools such as 
bugzilla or iexploder will continue to use Perl or Ruby respectively since it 
would be unwise to work them just to change the language.

Regards,
Maciej

> 
> -- Dirk
> 
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Sam Weinig  wrote:
>> Sorry, I seemed to have missed this thread.  Please do not rewrite scripts
>> just to rewrite them in a language you like. WebKit's dependency on Ruby is
>> here to stay. Just because python is common at Google does not make it
>> universal.
>> -Sam
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> So porting PrettyPatch to Python will make good benefit and should have no
>>> drawbacks.  I should go ahead.
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 09:21, William Siegrist 
>>> wrote:
 
 On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:43 PM, TAMURA, Kent wrote:
 
>   Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?
 
 Yes.
 
 -Bill
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> TAMURA Kent
>>> Software Engineer, Google
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread David Levin
>From reading this thread and the bug, it sounds like there is one key issue
installing something new on build machines.

As discussed before in regards to python, there was a desire not to go above
a certain version so that the tiger build machine could run a script. That
seemed reasonable to me.

Similarly there is a desire in this case to avoid Ruby because it means
installing something new on other build machines. This also seems reasonable
to me.

There are other issues that seem tangential which are being brought up and
only confuse the subject for me:

   - Speed -- without numbers this is meaningless to me.
   - A hang that might be reduced -- since it will remain, it sounds like
   there is a deeper issue to fix.
   - People like python -- me too, but perhaps not a deciding factor.

It probably didn't help that the subject of the email focuses on languages
in a highlander smack down style as if there can be only one.

Focusing again, given the build machine issue:

   - Is it best to have a separate script that is similar to PrettyPatch
   solve the issue?
   - Or replace the script?
   - Or can the dependency on PrettyPatch be controlled via a commandline
   option and just turned off on build machines?
   - Or have folks explain why they don't want to install more on their
   build machine?


dave
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread Dirk Pranke
Hi Sam,

Did you see the reply I sent on this thread? There are actually decent
reasons to rewrite the code into Python, to simplify and speed up the
new-run-webkit-tests implementation. Given that, do you still object
to the patch landing (since the work has already been done)?

-- Dirk

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Sam Weinig  wrote:
> Sorry, I seemed to have missed this thread.  Please do not rewrite scripts
> just to rewrite them in a language you like. WebKit's dependency on Ruby is
> here to stay. Just because python is common at Google does not make it
> universal.
> -Sam
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks.
>> So porting PrettyPatch to Python will make good benefit and should have no
>> drawbacks.  I should go ahead.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 09:21, William Siegrist 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:43 PM, TAMURA, Kent wrote:
>>>
>>> >   Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> -Bill
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> TAMURA Kent
>> Software Engineer, Google
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread Ryosuke Niwa
Hi,

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 7:56 AM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:

> Do we have any recommendation of programming language for scripts such as
> WebKitTools/Scripts?
> It seems new scripts are written by Python and Ruby code is very rare.
>
> Is it reasonable to port a Ruby script to Python?
> I tried to port PrettyPatch.rb to Python in
> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43617 in order to remove Ruby
> dependency for many developers and buildbots.  However bdash objected it.
>

Why Ruby to Python?  There are also Perl scripts in WebKitTools/Scripts.
 Could you explain the benefits of converting Ruby scripts to Python?

I agree that having to install Ruby, Python, and Perl is a burden for many
Windows developers but most of us use Mac / Linux for WebKit development
anyways.

- Ryosuke
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread Eric Seidel
Here are the list of files in the project which use ruby:

Scripts/check-for-inappropriate-files-in-framework:#!/usr/bin/env ruby
Scripts/check-for-webkit-framework-include-consistency:#!/usr/bin/env ruby
Scripts/clean-header-guards:#!/usr/bin/ruby
Scripts/roll-over-ChangeLogs:#!/usr/bin/env ruby
iExploder/htdocs/iexploder.cgi:#!/usr/bin/ruby
iExploder/htdocs/iexploder.rb:# These if statements are so
that mod_ruby doesn't have to reload the files
iExploder/htdocs/webserver.rb:#!/usr/bin/ruby
iExploder/tools/lasthit.rb:#!/usr/bin/ruby
iExploder/tools/osx_last_crash.rb:#!/usr/bin/ruby
iExploder/tools/showtest.rb:#!/usr/bin/ruby

-eric

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:40 PM, Sam Weinig  wrote:
> Sorry, I seemed to have missed this thread.  Please do not rewrite scripts
> just to rewrite them in a language you like. WebKit's dependency on Ruby is
> here to stay. Just because python is common at Google does not make it
> universal.
> -Sam
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks.
>> So porting PrettyPatch to Python will make good benefit and should have no
>> drawbacks.  I should go ahead.
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 09:21, William Siegrist 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:43 PM, TAMURA, Kent wrote:
>>>
>>> >   Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?
>>>
>>> Yes.
>>>
>>> -Bill
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> TAMURA Kent
>> Software Engineer, Google
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread Sam Weinig
Sorry, I seemed to have missed this thread.  Please do not rewrite scripts
just to rewrite them in a language you like. WebKit's dependency on Ruby is
here to stay. Just because python is common at Google does not make it
universal.

-Sam

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 4:48 PM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:

> Thanks.
> So porting PrettyPatch to Python will make good benefit and should have no
> drawbacks.  I should go ahead.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 09:21, William Siegrist wrote:
>
>> On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:43 PM, TAMURA, Kent wrote:
>>
>> >   Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> TAMURA Kent
> Software Engineer, Google
>
>
>
>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-09-01 Thread TAMURA, Kent

Thanks.
So porting PrettyPatch to Python will make good benefit and should have no
drawbacks.  I should go ahead.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 09:21, William Siegrist  wrote:


On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:43 PM, TAMURA, Kent wrote:



>   Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?



Yes.



-Bill





--
TAMURA Kent
Software Engineer, Google




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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-08-31 Thread William Siegrist
On Aug 31, 2010, at 4:43 PM, TAMURA, Kent wrote:

>   Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?

Yes. 

-Bill

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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-08-31 Thread TAMURA, Kent

WebKitTools/iExploder has some ruby scripts.
  
LayoutTests/platform/mac/fast/loader/resources/mimeTypeExamples/example-rb.rb

is an empty file.  I don't know others.

PrettyPatch on Python would remove Ruby dependency from new-run-webkit-tests
and webkit-patch. But I'm not sure if we can remove BugsSite/PrettyPatch.
 Can we run python scripts on bugs.webkit.org server?

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 04:26, Dirk Pranke  wrote:


I think generally most scripts are written in Python nowadays, and we
have a large legacy of perl scripts that are getting ported over.



bdash mentions in the bug that there are other scripts written in Ruby
besides PrettyPatch, but that's news to me. What are they, and what
are they used for? Is there a particular reason that they're in Ruby?



I agree with Jeremy that, all other things being equal, fewer
languages is better, and I'm not sure that Ruby offers many compelling
advantages over Python (disclaimer: I personally like Ruby the
language better than Python, although I have a lot more experience w/
Python than I do w/ Ruby).



On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 7:56 AM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:
> Do we have any recommendation of programming language for scripts such  
as

> WebKitTools/Scripts?
> It seems new scripts are written by Python and Ruby code is very rare.
> Is it reasonable to port a Ruby script to Python?
> I tried to port PrettyPatch.rb to Python
> in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43617 in order to remove Ruby
> dependency for many developers and buildbots.  However bdash objected  
it.

> --
> TAMURA Kent
> Software Engineer, Google
>
>
>
>
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>





--
TAMURA Kent
Software Engineer, Google




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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-08-31 Thread Dirk Pranke
Oh, I should have mentioned that there is actually a compelling reason
to port PrettyPatch over, namely that if we can port it to a Python
library than we can avoid having to shell out to it from
new-run-webkit-tests. Shelling out, in addition to being slower, seems
to contribute to the Python multithreading deadlocking issues we've
seen.

-- Dirk

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Dirk Pranke  wrote:
> I think generally most scripts are written in Python nowadays, and we
> have a large legacy of perl scripts that are getting ported over.
>
> bdash mentions in the bug that there are other scripts written in Ruby
> besides PrettyPatch, but that's news to me. What are they, and what
> are they used for? Is there a particular reason that they're in Ruby?
>
> I agree with Jeremy that, all other things being equal, fewer
> languages is better, and I'm not sure that Ruby offers many compelling
> advantages over Python (disclaimer: I personally like Ruby the
> language better than Python, although I have a lot more experience w/
> Python than I do w/ Ruby).
>
> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 7:56 AM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:
>> Do we have any recommendation of programming language for scripts such as
>> WebKitTools/Scripts?
>> It seems new scripts are written by Python and Ruby code is very rare.
>> Is it reasonable to port a Ruby script to Python?
>> I tried to port PrettyPatch.rb to Python
>> in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43617 in order to remove Ruby
>> dependency for many developers and buildbots.  However bdash objected it.
>> --
>> TAMURA Kent
>> Software Engineer, Google
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-08-31 Thread Dirk Pranke
I think generally most scripts are written in Python nowadays, and we
have a large legacy of perl scripts that are getting ported over.

bdash mentions in the bug that there are other scripts written in Ruby
besides PrettyPatch, but that's news to me. What are they, and what
are they used for? Is there a particular reason that they're in Ruby?

I agree with Jeremy that, all other things being equal, fewer
languages is better, and I'm not sure that Ruby offers many compelling
advantages over Python (disclaimer: I personally like Ruby the
language better than Python, although I have a lot more experience w/
Python than I do w/ Ruby).

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 7:56 AM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:
> Do we have any recommendation of programming language for scripts such as
> WebKitTools/Scripts?
> It seems new scripts are written by Python and Ruby code is very rare.
> Is it reasonable to port a Ruby script to Python?
> I tried to port PrettyPatch.rb to Python
> in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43617 in order to remove Ruby
> dependency for many developers and buildbots.  However bdash objected it.
> --
> TAMURA Kent
> Software Engineer, Google
>
>
>
>
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Re: [webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-08-31 Thread Jeremy Orlow
The fewer languages we use, the easier it is for people to hack on stuff.
 Python is especially nice because it's optimized for readability and
predictability, so it's more approachable to people who aren't experts in
that language.  If we currently have only a small dependency on Ruby, it
makes sense to me to bring that dependence to 0 and to try and stick with
Python from now on.

J

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 3:56 PM, TAMURA, Kent  wrote:

> Do we have any recommendation of programming language for scripts such as
> WebKitTools/Scripts?
> It seems new scripts are written by Python and Ruby code is very rare.
>
> Is it reasonable to port a Ruby script to Python?
> I tried to port PrettyPatch.rb to Python in
> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43617 in order to remove Ruby
> dependency for many developers and buildbots.  However bdash objected it.
>
> --
> TAMURA Kent
> Software Engineer, Google
>
>
>
>
> ___
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[webkit-dev] Script programming language: Perl, Python, or Ruby?

2010-08-31 Thread TAMURA, Kent

Do we have any recommendation of programming language for scripts such as
WebKitTools/Scripts?
It seems new scripts are written by Python and Ruby code is very rare.

Is it reasonable to port a Ruby script to Python?
I tried to port PrettyPatch.rb to Python in
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43617 in order to remove Ruby
dependency for many developers and buildbots.  However bdash objected it.

--
TAMURA Kent
Software Engineer, Google




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