[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi Zeki, On Sat, 2013-02-16 at 02:26 +0200, Zeki Bildirici wrote: Previously i said that we should change people's habits to get help, and all stuff we had discussed are hypothetical base which we stand on. ... User surveys are best for in this conditions to get to know the users behavior. IMHO there is one user-survey which the user fills in for us when they are unable to work out what to do - and that is the 'search' entry in the wiki-help. And of course the help pages that they look at. I would -love- to have that data made available: a simple list of keywords and their frequency entered into that search box sorted by relevance would provide a very cheap easy method for working out what is going on ;-) Is that something the website / infrastructure guys could provide for us ? :-) Thanks ! Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi, Michael Meeks wrote on 2013-02-19 09:55: I would -love- to have that data made available: a simple list of keywords and their frequency entered into that search box sorted by relevance would provide a very cheap easy method for working out what is going on ;-) Is that something the website / infrastructure guys could provide for us ? :-) should you look at me, I would prefer if I could finish the migration of kermit (web server) and then bilbo (mail and download server), because both are rather critical and long overdue. Kermit is nearly done, but bilbo is at the end of its lifecycle, too, which we see in high load with every mirror push. After that, I have cycles free again, but until then, I'd like to focus on this work, if possible. :) Florian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi Donald, *, On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 2:04 AM, Donald Rogers donr2...@clear.net.nz wrote: Thank you and Adolfo for your replies. My main point was simply the huge amount of work and that small teams are trying to do. (EO team in my case). OK, I misunderstood it somewhat as all those stuff should be found on one website. On 18/02/2013, at 1:15 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Donald Rogers donr2...@clear.net.nz wrote: [...] But doing screenshots of dialogs is getting easier and easier thanks to the gladification of the UI. What is gladification? Formerly, dialogs in OpenOffice.org (and thus in LibreOffice) are using a fixed layout, i.e. they wouldn't resize, they wouldn't adapt to the actual length of translated strings, etc. So Caolan made it possible to use glade (a GTK-interface builder) to design the dialog and use those ui files dynamically. So to take screenshots, you can just open the dialog definition in glade instead of finding it in LibreOffice. http://blogs.linux.ie/caolan/2013/01/24/converting-libreoffice-dialogs-to-ui-format-100-conversions-milestone/ so far 100 dialogs are converted :-) ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi, Tom Thank you for your extensive explanation. Your comments on the Getting Started Guide are very helpful. Our team has never completed the help localization, even in earlier years (OOO) when we had a much bigger team. I doubt that we will ever catch up. 437219 words are a lot of words! I have had another look at the Documentation page of the Wiki and the ODFAuthors page. It is not clear to me whether these relate only to the English documentation, or whether they include the localization of those documents. Localization seems to be not covered. You know those items in the help that look like this? bookmark_valueformatting styles; styles and templates/bookmark_value bookmark_valuestyles; styles and templates/bookmark_value bookmark_valueorganizing; templates (guide)/bookmark_value bookmark_valuetemplates; organizing (guide)/bookmark_value I guess that they are used to construct the help index. Is there any documentation on this? We seem to have to guess how the users might enter index terms. If, instead, we could have a full word search, like Google does, we would not need these bookmark_value elements, and that would save us a heap of time! Regards Donald -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi Christian Thank you and Adolfo for your replies. My main point was simply the huge amount of work and that small teams are trying to do. (EO team in my case). Obviously we have to prioritize our tasks. I am trying to get a better feel for what is most important. We have the UI done, but the help is at about 40% done. I have stopped working on it because I found that some of the menus have changed in LO 4.0 and I personally don't want to translate stuff now and have to do it again when the help has been updated for v 4.0. On 18/02/2013, at 1:15 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi Donald, On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Donald Rogers donr2...@clear.net.nz wrote: It seems to me that there is a lot of duplication of effort and fragmentation of the help. We have at least the following: LO Help from the Help menu help.libreoffice.org Those are identical. That's the whole point of help.libreoffice.org That's good. (I mostly use the menu help) wiki.documentfoundation.org this is more developer / active contributer oriented and less for endusers, although stuff is published there. But there's another discussion (or actually in this thread, I lost track) about not abusing wiki to publish large files, etc. the guides FAQ How can these be extra points when these are hosted on the mentioned sites? They all add to the work that could be done. ask.libreoffice.org A user-helps-user platform, no static documentation, but answeres/solutions for specific problems. You cannot cover every cornercase in regular documentation. accessibility info features See above, not really belong here as separate points, as they are found on sites. Otherwise you could just make separate bulletpoints for whetever you like. But the new-features page surely is also a marketing tool. installation instructions Nobody reads those anyway :-) But what is wrong with having those? I am not saying there is anything wrong with having them. They have to be accessible before installing LO, so obviously aren't part of the menu help. mailing lists similar to ask.libreoffice.org, but most mailinglists are for coordination of active contributors. And while ask.libreoffice.org is fine for easy problems, more complex ones are better off on the maiing list. Nabble That's just an interface to the mailinglists. Not everybody likes using their mailclient. And you forgot gmane/newsgroup interface, that also is an additional way to access/participate in the mailing lists. IRC (near) real-time discussion - so again a different scope, useful for different stuff than the other ways to get help. You did happily mix passive sources of information with interactive stuff... Each has a separate focus, as I see it. The guides are very good but to localize them requires not just translation and adaption, but also all the screen shots and other pictures need to be redone for each language. This would be a huge task. There are no guides yet for version 4.0. I just checked. EN has guides for 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 or 4.0, and ID has the full set of about 80 documents for LO 3.3, 3.4 or 3.5. FR has 36 (by my count) for LO 3.5 or 3.6. All other languages apparently have none. (I looked on wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr and equivalent pages.) The principles of usage are the same, so no big deal really... And whether you do the screen shots or not is also a matter of taste... But doing screenshots of dialogs is getting easier and easier thanks to the gladification of the UI. What is gladification? If we are to continue to have both the Help menu help and help.libreoffice.org help, can someone write some code to generate the help.libreoffice.org help from the same .po files that are used for the Help menu help? That was already answered help.libreoffice.org is what is in the help-module. What sort of help is meant to be in the wiki? See above. I see it mainly as a source for information for active contributors/developers, less so for the enduser. Is there any possible synergy between the FAQ and ask.libreoffice.org? Are they to be localized too? well, apart from people monitoring what kind of questions get asked the most on ask.libreoffice.org, there is no synergy. Questions are too widespread/too special in most cases. LO apparently doesn't have the people power to keep even the English helps up to date, let alone all the other languages. Some of the localization teams are very small and can't keep up with even one of the help systems. Please explain / give an example what you are talking about here. I hate statements like that. LO is about to publish version 4.0.1 but we have not yet finished the help for 4.0.0. The Wiki is easier to work with than the CMS. What CMS please. There are tons of them. I refered to the Silverstripe CMS that we use in xx.libreoffice.org. This is not an important point, and I am
[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi, the only survey that would answer how good or bad current help content and current organization of help topics as well as need for help by the users would be to add a survey system into the LO UI, that would report back to a server - where/when do users press F1, what topics they look for etc. Upon installation of LO user would be asked if she allows LO to report back anonymously about the use of help system. Hopefully that could be done in a simple way, I just hope that help content calls are small parts of data that could be easily tracked back to actual situations. Such a query should run for a few months and then the data should be mined through to get meaningful results. Then one can start talking about other kinds of help etc. Lp, m. 2013/2/16 Zeki Bildirici z...@ozgurlukicin.com: Hi, After reading the replies, and remembering the previous arguments, i want to point the important distinction between which is better approach and which way we should improve approach. Previously i said that we should change people's habits to get help, and all stuff we had discussed are hypothetical base which we stand on. But i am wondering that do we know people's choices, habits and their experiences on reaching help info or their thoughts? User surveys are best for in this conditions to get to know the users behavior. I can give my example about a user survey about the Pardus GNU/Linux which i've prepared and had very good results and feedback from users. It was about the problems on getting help, inclusion on contribution and their discouragements and plus and minus points. Maybe we should issue a survey about the general help picture of LibreOffice. English is not my native language thus it may have considered a weird language. I've used kwiksurveys before, that was very simple and has good options, if we have a better platform then it will be better. The basic questions can be as follows: - Have you ever heard the following help channels of LibreOffice --- ask.libreoffice.org portal --- LibreOffice forums --- LibreOffice user e-mail lists --- #LibreOffice IRC channel --- LibreOffice bundled/online help on help.libreoffice.org --- LibreOffice user guides - What will you do if you need help on LibreOffice --- I search the info for the solution on internet --- Ask to my friends who knows LibreOffice better --- Ask for help on genereal (non-LibreOffice) forums --- Ask for help on LibreOffice forums --- Ask for help on LibreOffice user e-mail lists --- Search on LibreOffice bundled help --- Search on LibreOffice Users gide - If you have used ask.libreoffice.org, could you please rate your satisfaction (1-10, 1 is worse 10 is very satisfying) . (same question for other channels) - Have you ever used LibreOffice bundled help, to learn new stuff and improve your skills to use LibreOffice components? - Have you ever used LibreOffice Guides, to learn new stuff and improve your skills to use LibreOffice components? - What do you feel during your search about getting help on LibreOffice --- I have no idea how to get help for my problem --- I am generally hopeless to find help, but i keep on trying --- I rarely find help --- I am very disappointed about all my this tries to get help --- I can usually find help --- I am a self learner and i love to find my own solutions, thus i am confident --- I always find help from real life friends --- I can find help from people on various internet platforms - What do you think about bundled help (help.libreoffice.org) -- I have no idea about it -- Yes i know it but i never used it for help -- It is crap, it gives me no help -- Not very good but sometimes useful -- Very good for self learning -- It is nice, have plenty of information and info about LibreOffice functions and tips -- Very good and satisfying - What do you think about LibreOffice Guides -- I have no idea about it -- Yes i know it but i never used one for help -- It is crap, it gives me no help -- Not good but sometimes useful -- It is nice, have plenty of information and info about LibreOffice functions and tips -- Very good and satisfying -- Teaches me all the stuff i need - Have you ever tried to learn more about using LibreOffice components and improve your skills by LibreOffice bundled help? If so, please rate it (1-10, 1 is worse 10 is very satisfying) - Have you ever tried to learn more about using LibreOffice components and improve your skills by LibreOffice Guides? If so, please rate it (1-10, 1 is worse 10 is very satisfying) - What do you think about ask.libreoffice.org -- I have no idea about it -- Ooo, the ghost cowboy town you mean? -- People are rude and they don't help me -- Finding answers could be late but it works -- Nice though -- Very good, the first place i ask for help and get it -- Thank god for it! (irc and e-mail list
[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
2013/2/16 Martin Srebotnjak mi...@filmsi.net: Hi, Hi Martin, the only survey that would answer how good or bad current help content and current organization of help topics as well as need for help by the users would be to add a survey system into the LO UI, that would report back to a server - where/when do users press F1, what topics they look for etc. Upon installation of LO user would be asked if she allows LO to report back anonymously about the use of help system. Hopefully that could be done in a simple way, I just hope that help content calls are small parts of data that could be easily tracked back to actual situations. Such a query should run for a few months and then the data should be mined through to get meaningful results. I don't think this kind of tracking would give sufficient information. First there is a technical restriction, this kind of tracking will not include users which are staying the last stable version. And it is not a community sense approach, the info will be data only and it will be accumulated slowly and it will be very hard to comment of the output. Also many people will ignore such notification. It is a machine way and gives no space for the people's social behaviour and alternatives. We should see the help channels together in a complex picture, They must be taken complementary of each other Then one can start talking about other kinds of help etc. As i said, we shouldn't separate them or put them in order. Help is needed an it is served in multiple ways, the problem is awareness and promoting people to use them in any way which suits their needs. Starting with a simple and friendly survey will be a first step, also we all know that LibreOffice has a restricted manpower and other critical priorities. This kind of implementation may never come into life, or may irritate people to collect their information. I want to quote David Watson's words, sometimes you don't have to do it right, you just need to do something, or an old Turkish word Caravan train is merged on the road We cannot be perfect at the beginning but we have to start. I think such survey will also help to make people aware of LibreOffice's help channels at least which can be considered as a big gain imho. Best regards, Zeki -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi, After reading the replies, and remembering the previous arguments, i want to point the important distinction between which is better approach and which way we should improve approach. Previously i said that we should change people's habits to get help, and all stuff we had discussed are hypothetical base which we stand on. But i am wondering that do we know people's choices, habits and their experiences on reaching help info or their thoughts? User surveys are best for in this conditions to get to know the users behavior. I can give my example about a user survey about the Pardus GNU/Linux which i've prepared and had very good results and feedback from users. It was about the problems on getting help, inclusion on contribution and their discouragements and plus and minus points. Maybe we should issue a survey about the general help picture of LibreOffice. English is not my native language thus it may have considered a weird language. I've used kwiksurveys before, that was very simple and has good options, if we have a better platform then it will be better. The basic questions can be as follows: - Have you ever heard the following help channels of LibreOffice --- ask.libreoffice.org portal --- LibreOffice forums --- LibreOffice user e-mail lists --- #LibreOffice IRC channel --- LibreOffice bundled/online help on help.libreoffice.org --- LibreOffice user guides - What will you do if you need help on LibreOffice --- I search the info for the solution on internet --- Ask to my friends who knows LibreOffice better --- Ask for help on genereal (non-LibreOffice) forums --- Ask for help on LibreOffice forums --- Ask for help on LibreOffice user e-mail lists --- Search on LibreOffice bundled help --- Search on LibreOffice Users gide - If you have used ask.libreoffice.org, could you please rate your satisfaction (1-10, 1 is worse 10 is very satisfying) . (same question for other channels) - Have you ever used LibreOffice bundled help, to learn new stuff and improve your skills to use LibreOffice components? - Have you ever used LibreOffice Guides, to learn new stuff and improve your skills to use LibreOffice components? - What do you feel during your search about getting help on LibreOffice --- I have no idea how to get help for my problem --- I am generally hopeless to find help, but i keep on trying --- I rarely find help --- I am very disappointed about all my this tries to get help --- I can usually find help --- I am a self learner and i love to find my own solutions, thus i am confident --- I always find help from real life friends --- I can find help from people on various internet platforms - What do you think about bundled help (help.libreoffice.org) -- I have no idea about it -- Yes i know it but i never used it for help -- It is crap, it gives me no help -- Not very good but sometimes useful -- Very good for self learning -- It is nice, have plenty of information and info about LibreOffice functions and tips -- Very good and satisfying - What do you think about LibreOffice Guides -- I have no idea about it -- Yes i know it but i never used one for help -- It is crap, it gives me no help -- Not good but sometimes useful -- It is nice, have plenty of information and info about LibreOffice functions and tips -- Very good and satisfying -- Teaches me all the stuff i need - Have you ever tried to learn more about using LibreOffice components and improve your skills by LibreOffice bundled help? If so, please rate it (1-10, 1 is worse 10 is very satisfying) - Have you ever tried to learn more about using LibreOffice components and improve your skills by LibreOffice Guides? If so, please rate it (1-10, 1 is worse 10 is very satisfying) - What do you think about ask.libreoffice.org -- I have no idea about it -- Ooo, the ghost cowboy town you mean? -- People are rude and they don't help me -- Finding answers could be late but it works -- Nice though -- Very good, the first place i ask for help and get it -- Thank god for it! (irc and e-mail list questions may be added similarly) - Did you ever got help from using social media (facebook, twitter, linkedin etc) -- Never tried, does it works? -- No, i am not a geek nor my network! -- Asked some but no one helped me -- Yes i had some -- My network is cool, and it is the fastest way to get help - Have you ever used Microsoft Office bundled help or help portal, if so, please share your thoughts (free format answers) If we could understand people's behavior better, we should focus on the minuses and improve them. But i should say that, getting help is about willing to get help and about self learning and willing to learn more. Which is the key point that we can promote it by our help resources. Best regards, Zeki -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to website+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems?
