[libreoffice-website] Re: ConfCall wiki page broken?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-08 03:51, Manuel Schneider a écrit :

Hi Florian,

FCKEditor is already disabled since Wednesday last week as per Stefan
Weigel's request.

Concerning your argument for the WYSIWYG editor:

I have ask for people to speak up if they need the editor. So far I have
not received a single person speaking up for itself in favour of the
editor.

The statistics I have provided you with speak the same language - only
one user of more than 200 using it.

Just because /we believe/ or /fear/ that we need one is a bad argument
for it.



/Manuel




Sorry Manuel, I must have missed your message.

My hand is up for WYSIWYG editor. I use WYSIWYG for 90% or more of my 
work as a teacher and I have been using the WYSIWYG editor on the wiki 
here too.


I must be the only sole user then. :-)

Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: ConfCall wiki page broken?

[Stefan Weigel]

Am 08.11.2010 14:37, schrieb klaus-jürgen weghorn ol:

 Damned Rich Editor.
 I crashed all the links in http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA
 because of this RE.
 I only deactivate RE, copy in {{OrigLang|}} and after saving the
 links are crashed.

I fixed it.

Stefan


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LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir!

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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: ConfCall wiki page broken?

[drew]

On Mon, 2010-11-08 at 14:37 +0100, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol wrote:
 Damned Rich Editor.
 I crashed all the links in
 http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA because 
 of this RE. 

Klaus I feel your pain..

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Drew#Personal_Pages

Edited 3 pages yesterday, lots of lost work and duplicate effort...the
RT editor as it is setup really does has a problem and for the moment I
would agree with those that would disable it until it can be fixed or
replaced, right now it is bound to cause more problems then assistance,
IMO.

I fixed the other pages, at the end saw the above and left for it for
today to fix.

Drew


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[libreoffice-website] Re: ConfCall wiki page broken?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-08 06:04, Stefan Weigel a écrit :

Hi Marc,

Am 08.11.2010 10:20, schrieb Marc Paré:


Yup, I'm on the wiki now, using the rich text editor and it works
fine for me.


Just avoid to copy  paste wiki source code into the Rich Editor.
This may mess up your article completely. ;-)

Cheers,
Stefan



Thanks Stefan. I also notice that the FCKEditor has not been replaced by 
CKEditor yet. It looks like the CKEditor devs are working on it but 
still not ready. For those who are not aware, the FCKEditor and its 
newest version CKEditor for WikiMedia are rewoked versions made to 
output in wiki code. They are not the same versions as the text WYSIWYG 
FCKEditor and CKEditor.


I know that as WYSIWYG editors go, CKEditor is one of the best WYSYWYG 
version going on the market, along with, IMO Xanhia.


BTW, in all fairness, there are probably more people like me who would 
rather work through WYSIWYG editors but when presented with an editor 
are just not that committed to learning wiki code. Myself, I have no 
interest in learning wiki code, but am interested in helping out and 
contributing. I am sure that I am not the only one who feels this way.


I am old enough to have gone through, years ago, the boo's and jeers 
from Wordprocessor purists who told me that writing in code rather than 
writing with a WYSIWYG programme was the only real way to write 
documents; same thing when I was boo'ed, jeered when I was told that 
using a text browser only was the only way to browse;  as well as boo'ed 
and jeered because I used a spellcheck in my wordprocessors and mail 
programmes ... . History, it seems, will repeat itself.


Here are the arguments that I used 30 years ago in trying to convince 
others that a WYSIWYG wordprecessor was a better option ... By using a 
WYSIWYG that works, we are including that ability of 100%o of 
participation from the general public. Document writing is not there to 
collect users who are expert in text coding; it's there to gather 
information and encourage participation from everyone. I was, at the 
time, working for a music magazine, using CP/M with a text editor and, I 
had bought an AtariST with STWriter, and I could type in my text quicker 
than anyone in the magazine office because it was functional and I was 
not slowed down by text formatting codes.


As for the FCKEditor, We should be looking at other WYSIWYG editors that 
work if this one doesn't suit, or disable identified problem functions 
until we find a fix.


But really, are we not looking for full participation or the potential 
of full participation? We could still have the wiki editors for the 
wiki-code-proficient group and for the rest of us who would like to jump 
in and help out, we could also have a WYSIWYG editor. That would then 
make for 100% membership participation.


Cheers

Marc


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[libreoffice-website] Re: ConfCall wiki page broken?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-08 08:49, Stefan Weigel a écrit :

Am 08.11.2010 14:37, schrieb klaus-jürgen weghorn ol:


Damned Rich Editor.
I crashed all the links in http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA
because of this RE.
I only deactivate RE, copy in {{OrigLang|}} and after saving the
links are crashed.


I fixed it.

Stefan



Thanks Stefan, this is great!

Marc


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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: ConfCall wiki page broken?

[Carlos Jenkins]

2010/11/5 Michael Wheatland mich...@wheatland.com.au

 Sorry to jump in here, but I really dislike working with wiki markup,
 as I am sure a lot of others are too.
 Correct me if I am wrong but this problem was catalysed by someone
 copying and pasting markup as text inside the WYSIWYG editor. This
 will always happen no matter what WYSIWYG editor you use, that is
 exactly what it is meant to do.

On Drupal I choose: Force cleanup on standard paste. So, the copied text
is always forced to plain text and automatically unformated. I suppose there
should be a configuration parameter on MediaWiki too.

Cheers

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http://www.cjenkins.net/
http://csl-tec.softwarelibrecr.org/

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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: ConfCall wiki page broken?

[Nino Novak]

On Friday 05 November 2010 22:19, Marc Paré wrote:
 Le 2010-11-05 16:04, Nino Novak a écrit :
  On Friday 05 November 2010 20:27, Marc Paré wrote:
  I would not go to Wiki-markup.
 
  Please read Manuals reply.
 
  It's not about supposed potential users but actual contributors.
  They predominantly seem to switch off the editor.
 
  So the editor should be disabled until a fixed version is
  found/installed.
 
  Nino
  EOD for me

 Thanks Nino. Don't take the rest of the following as an angry retort
 but more of a discussion more on the philosophy behind what I
 consider the use of WYSIWYG editors.

I'll give it a try ;)


 I don't have a problem with turning off the editor if it is not
 working. But would like to have the option of using it if this is
 possible at all ... pretty please. BTW, I am probably the one who
 turned the editor on in Manuel stats. LOL

 Also BTW, thanks for Manuel for all of his hard work. It is
 appreciated.

 I do all of my contributions with WYSIWYG editors wherever I
 participate. I find that I can format more efficiently and have more
 time and leave the formatting coding up to the editor. This is not to
 say that I could not do it or stop contributing to the project, but
 it would certainly slow down the process.

while I see this, please see also that I'm scared of the problems a 
broken editor produces, i.e. additional work and possible data loss. 
Therefore, it's a question of balancing arguments.


 I find it a little strange that we are debating about the virtues of
 using  WYSIWYG editors while at the same time advocating a suite
 built on the principles of WYSIWYG.

It's not about the principles of WYSIWYG but about weighting pros and 
cons of a /broken/ editor. No one would complain if the editor wouldn't 
destroy text. 


 How ironic, when you think that 
 the majority of people would definitely use the LibO suite and not
 return to the CP/M days of coding all aspects of formatting to write
 an article .. Wordstar these days would clearly not sell.

see above. Nobody talks about principles, it's about working efficiency.


 If we are looking to increasing the amount of membership
 participation on the project, then, presumably they are here because
 they believe in the LibO suite and would like to contribute. By
 providing these new members a means by which to participate that
 includes subscribing to a text editor that requires an output better
 suited to a WYSIWYG editor is self-defeating.

Again, read Manuel's mail. 

We should not argue about potential but actual contributors.

 Having more members participate will make for a better and more
 popular vibrant project.

For me, nothing is more de-motivating than if you're using tools that 
erase your contributions silently. 

Remember: I'm not talking about principles but concrete problems.

Nino

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[libreoffice-website] Re: ConfCall wiki page broken?

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-04 05:59, Florian Effenberger a écrit :

Hi,

Carlos Jenkins wrote on 2010-11-04 10.57:

Actually I was looking at the code generated by the actual editor and is
quite ugly... terrible indeed :S But I understand is difficult for
users to
write in mediawiki format... mmm... I see no solution here. Wikipedia
has a
very nice little, very little bar that inserts the tags on the text,
instead
of generating it a visually interpret them. There is no a little more
complete editor with those features? Not generating, just inserting the
tags?


believe me - we *NEED* a WYSIWYG editor, if we want large contributions
to the wiki (which we do). ;)

Florian



Ok, I'll chime in on this one. A WYSIWYG is definitely needed. Or we 
will all suffer the wrath of new users' use of the MW syntax inluding 
mine. Not a nice sight. You will not want to go there unless you want 
more help mails from users.


Marc


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