Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)

[Ryosuke Niwa]

On Jun 6, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Charles McCathie Nevile  
wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 14:22:48 +0200, Koji Ishii  
> wrote:
> 
>> On Jun 5, 2014, at 22:08, Tab Atkins Jr.  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
>>>  wrote:
 Brett Zamir  writes:
 
> On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
>>  wrote:
> ...
>>> There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
>>> pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.
>>> 
>>> As an initial suggestion:
>>> 
>>> iPad
>>> 
>>> (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
>>> International Phonetic Alphabet.)
>>> 
>>> What are your thoughts on this,
> ...
>> This is already theoretically addressed by ,
>> linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format.  Nobody
>> implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course.
> 
> I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of
> Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word
> referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced
> accurately.
 
 Is there any reason one cannot use the  element for pronunciation?
 
 Example:
 
 Elfriede Jelinek (ɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk) 
 
>>> 
>>> That's adequate for visually providing the pronunciation, but I think
>>> the original request was for a way to tell screen readers and similar
>>> tools how to pronounce an unfamiliar word.
>> 
>> True, but one could still use  for its semantics, and visually use the 
>> CSS to hide the pronunciations:
>> 
>>  rp, rt, rtc { display: none; }
> 
> In general screen readers respect HTML. If you use display:none they will not 
> render that content. So please do not do that.
> 
> Besides, the information is normally useful to people who can see it too - or 
> who can partially see it.
> 
>> Screen readers may have supported reading text in  instead of its base 
>> text when they supported Japanese. At least some screen readers in Japan 
>> does this.
> 
> The common use case for Ruby in both chinese and japanese, as far as I 
> understand, is to provide pronunciation. I don't see why that would be 
> inappropriate in general.

I agree.  The whole idea of using ruby for other kinds of footnote-like 
annotations is rather red herring because that's not how ruby is used.  Given 
the presentation of ruby elements are now fully spec'ed by CSS, there's nothing 
that prevents authors from using other HTML elements such as span, or even add 
a new element for annotations.  Or perhaps adding some attribute on ruby 
indicating whether a given ruby text is used to annotate or to indicate 
pronunciation might be sufficient.

-  R. Niwa

Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)

[Charles McCathie Nevile]

On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 14:22:48 +0200, Koji Ishii   
wrote:



On Jun 5, 2014, at 22:08, Tab Atkins Jr.  wrote:


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
 wrote:

Brett Zamir  writes:


On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
 wrote:

...

There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.

As an initial suggestion:

iPad

(Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
International Phonetic Alphabet.)

What are your thoughts on this,

...

This is already theoretically addressed by ,
linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format.  Nobody
implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of  
course.


I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of
Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word
referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced
accurately.


Is there any reason one cannot use the  element for  
pronunciation?


Example:

Elfriede Jelinek (ɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk)  



That's adequate for visually providing the pronunciation, but I think
the original request was for a way to tell screen readers and similar
tools how to pronounce an unfamiliar word.


True, but one could still use  for its semantics, and visually use  
the CSS to hide the pronunciations:


  rp, rt, rtc { display: none; }


In general screen readers respect HTML. If you use display:none they will  
not render that content. So please do not do that.


Besides, the information is normally useful to people who can see it too -  
or who can partially see it.


Screen readers may have supported reading text in  instead of its  
base text when they supported Japanese. At least some screen readers in  
Japan does this.


The common use case for Ruby in both chinese and japanese, as far as I  
understand, is to provide pronunciation. I don't see why that would be  
inappropriate in general.


The last thing I saw in Wikipedia was "Ray and Maria Stata Center  
(/steɪtə/ stay-ta)". This seems like a pretty clear use case for ruby to  
me.


There is also the "Pronunciation Lexicon Specification" which is a W3C  
Recommendation, but it would take some effort to get that into browsers,  
and the browser world seems to find XML too difficult these days so it may  
need to be re-done in another format.


Of course syntax is trivial - you could rebuild it as microdata, or RDFa,  
or something. The trick is getting people to agree on something they will  
implement. I don't recommend microdata because you can't mix vocabularies,  
and you may want to have e.g. schema.org data and pronunciation  
information for the same content. But


--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
cha...@yandex-team.ru Find more at http://yandex.com

Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)

[Koji Ishii]

On Jun 5, 2014, at 22:08, Tab Atkins Jr.  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
>  wrote:
>> Brett Zamir  writes:
>> 
>>> On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
 
 On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
  wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more
> recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google
> Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the
> appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the
> pronunciation of words on a web page.
> 
> There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
> pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.
> 
> As an initial suggestion:
> 
> iPad
> 
> (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
> International Phonetic Alphabet.)
> 
> What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I
> am not aware of?
 This is already theoretically addressed by ,
 linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format.  Nobody
 implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course.
>>> 
>>> I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of
>>> Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word
>>> referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced
>>> accurately.
>> 
>> Is there any reason one cannot use the  element for pronunciation?
>> 
>> Example:
>> 
>> Elfriede Jelinek (ɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk) 
>> 
> 
> That's adequate for visually providing the pronunciation, but I think
> the original request was for a way to tell screen readers and similar
> tools how to pronounce an unfamiliar word.

True, but one could still use  for its semantics, and visually use the 
CSS to hide the pronunciations:

  rp, rt, rtc { display: none; }

Screen readers may have supported reading text in  instead of its base text 
when they supported Japanese. At least some screen readers in Japan does this.

/koji

Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)

[Tab Atkins Jr.]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Nils Dagsson Moskopp
 wrote:
> Brett Zamir  writes:
>
>> On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
>>>  wrote:
 Hello,

 With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more
 recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google
 Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the
 appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the
 pronunciation of words on a web page.

 There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
 pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.

 As an initial suggestion:

 iPad

 (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
 International Phonetic Alphabet.)

 What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I
 am not aware of?
>>> This is already theoretically addressed by ,
>>> linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format.  Nobody
>>> implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course.
>>
>> I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of
>> Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word
>> referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced
>> accurately.
>
> Is there any reason one cannot use the  element for pronunciation?
>
> Example:
>
> Elfriede Jelinek (ɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk) 

That's adequate for visually providing the pronunciation, but I think
the original request was for a way to tell screen readers and similar
tools how to pronounce an unfamiliar word.

~TJ

Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)

[Nils Dagsson Moskopp]

Brett Zamir  writes:

> On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
>>   
>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris
>>  wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more
>>> recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google
>>> Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the
>>> appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the
>>> pronunciation of words on a web page.
>>>
>>> There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
>>> pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.
>>>
>>> As an initial suggestion:
>>>
>>> iPad
>>>
>>> (Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
>>> International Phonetic Alphabet.)
>>>
>>> What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I
>>> am not aware of?
>> This is already theoretically addressed by ,
>> linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format.  Nobody
>> implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course.
>>
>> ~TJ
>
> I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of 
> Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word 
> referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced 
> accurately.
>
> Brett

Is there any reason one cannot use the  element for pronunciation?

Example:

Elfriede Jelinek (ɛlˈfʀiːdə ˈjɛlinɛk) 

-- 
Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann

Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Inline pronounce element (Tab Atkins Jr.)

[Brett Zamir]

On 6/5/2014 3:05 AM, whatwg-requ...@lists.whatwg.org wrote:
  
On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:26 AM, Daniel Morris

 wrote:

Hello,

With existing assistive technology such as screen readers, and more
recently the pervasiveness of new technologies such as Siri and Google
Now to name two examples, I have been thinking about the
appropriateness and potential of having a way to represent the
pronunciation of words on a web page.

There is currently no other text-level semantic that I know of for
pronunciation, but we have elements for abbreviation and definition.

As an initial suggestion:

iPad

(Where the `ipa` attribute is the pronunciation using the
International Phonetic Alphabet.)

What are your thoughts on this, or does something already exist that I
am not aware of?

This is already theoretically addressed by ,
linking to a well-defined pronunciation file format.  Nobody
implements that, but nobody implements anything new either, of course.

~TJ


I think it'd be a lot easier for sites, say along the lines of 
Wikipedia, to support inline markup to allow users to get a word 
referenced at the beginning of an article, for example, pronounced 
accurately.


Brett