[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. R2 sounds like the right question. Thanks.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Scott_WorldUnivAndSch, Micru, lisong, Lofhi, Nemo_bis, TomT0m, jrbs, EgonWillighagen, sarojdhakal, Agabi10, NMaia, Simon_Villeneuve, Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. Once again, it's silly to talk about this issue going to court. Wikimedia contributors are not taking other Wikimedia contributors to court over internal disagreements on how the CC-By-SA license should apply. But we're weakening the legitimacy of Wikimedia licenses by not resolving this. @Denny Thanks for steering the discussion toward concrete questions. I think your question sounds about right. I have a slight quibble with the phrasing "other facts, such as places of birth", as I believe the problem is not with the individual facts, but with processes that imported them in bulk.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Micru, lisong, Lofhi, Nemo_bis, TomT0m, jrbs, EgonWillighagen, sarojdhakal, Agabi10, NMaia, Simon_Villeneuve, Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. My previous comment probably crossed a line. I'm sorry. But your convoluted argument has shown nothing and is irrelevant to Wikidata. Wikipedia is fine with a very lax approach to attribution. It encourages external sites to attribute simply "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". As far as I know, everyone is fine with this. If you're not, have fun arguing that, but I can tell you don't seriously hold the position you profess about attribution, it just fit into the current theory you were concocting about why violating Share-Alike on Wikidata is okay. Fundamentally, your position amounts to that old favorite of nonsense Internet IP arguments: "you didn't enforce your copyright once, so now you don't have a copyright anymore". Very popular among people who once heard something about trademarks and misremembered it, and people who just want something legalish-sounding about why it's okay for them to copy stuff. Share-Alike is a real thing, and unfortunately I think that this Phabricator discussion is not going to get any closer to a serious discussion of how to change Wikidata's copyright status. I'd like to know, specifically, what it would take to get Wikidata to stop making the frequently-false claim on every page that its data is CC-0.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Lofhi, Nemo_bis, TomT0m, jrbs, EgonWillighagen, sarojdhakal, Agabi10, NMaia, Simon_Villeneuve, Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. This reads like the transcript of a "sovereign citizen" arguing why they don't have to pay taxes because the flag in the courtroom doesn't have some feature they insist on. If this isn't the place to be serious about changing Wikidata's license to CC-By-SA so it can keep its content that was copied in bulk from other projects, I would like to know what is.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Lofhi, Nemo_bis, TomT0m, jrbs, EgonWillighagen, sarojdhakal, Agabi10, NMaia, Simon_Villeneuve, Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. [...] without any reference to the originating author. So if that is the case, Wikipedia has already never been compliant with that license. Wikipedia's interpretation of attribution has always been that the page editing history is sufficient attribution. And, of course, the result is shared alike. Those are the two requirements: attribution, and share alike. Wikipedia follows Wikipedia's license, and therefore Wikipedians can use content from Wikipedia. For the same reason, Wikidata may not use content from Wikipedia. That's the topic of this task.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Lofhi, Nemo_bis, TomT0m, jrbs, EgonWillighagen, sarojdhakal, Agabi10, NMaia, Simon_Villeneuve, Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. @Denny Nobody's copyright is going to be invalidated by your personal beliefs. And what do bots have to do with anything? Wiki bots are simple scripts operated by humans. I know how the translation bots worked in particular -- they relied on active approval by their human operator, who would make decisions about how to resolve mismatches and ambiguities, one major task in creating a translation dictionary. All Wikipedia content is created using software. You do not lose your copyright when you use software.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Lofhi, Nemo_bis, TomT0m, jrbs, EgonWillighagen, sarojdhakal, Agabi10, NMaia, Simon_Villeneuve, Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. the fact that 'London' is called 'Londres' in Frech is rather un-creative @Denny: Where is this reductionism getting you? You can pick one simple example at a time and entirely miss the point. When you have, say, 20,000 English terms that are translated to 20,000 French terms, and not all of the mappings are as obvious or as one-to-one as the name of a major world city, that is a work that people created. It's not an authorless happenstance. It's not a "monkey selfie" as Tgh so insultingly put it. The fact that it's expressed as one Wikipedia page being the same as another doesn't make it authorless. That data came from inter-language links that were originally created on Wikipedia, and translation templates that were originally created on Wiktionary, all of which were entered by specific authors, under the CC-By-SA license. It seems that the entire point of this reductionist handwaving is to find an excuse to not follow the CC-By-SA license. Consider the case of importing bulk data from someplace outside of Wikimedia, which the legal team already gave a very clear ruling on, linked repeatedly in this thread: you can't do it unless the data is totally free. The "but it's just facts" argument has already been deemed insufficent. Why would that argument work against Wikipedia or Wiktionary when it doesn't work against OpenStreetMap?TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Lofhi, Nemo_bis, TomT0m, jrbs, EgonWillighagen, sarojdhakal, Agabi10, NMaia, Simon_Villeneuve, Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. If you really wish for your data to be under CC0, why would you have any preferences at all over what happens to it? CC0 is the license where your wishes don't matter. It's as close to public domain as possible. If you wish your data to remain under the same terms, that's exactly the purpose of a ShareAlike clause. You might sympathize with why Wikipedians like ShareAlike. The reason I suggested relicensing Wikidata as CC-By-SA is because most of its data comes from other Wikimedia projects, in violation of their licenses, and I have no patience for the people here who are looking for loopholes and excuses for why it's okay to violate CC-By-SA. But removing all the CC-By-SA data from Wikidata, and leaving only the small portion that was contributed directly as CC-0, would effectively destroy Wikidata. That's not what I want.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: EgonWillighagen, sarojdhakal, Agabi10, NMaia, Simon_Villeneuve, Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. The point is not whether Wikipedia (or another project) can "claim infringement" against Wikidata. The point is that Wikidata should just not infringe anyway. Wikidata is not being an equitable ally to other projects when it doesn't respect the terms of their licenses, even if it could get away with it. Even if you were to create a "monkey selfie" case, claiming that Wikipedia contributors have no rights because there are too many of them or something -- and keep in mind that this sounds like utter nonsense to me, in my layman opinion -- if you accomplished anything like that, it would be a self-own. It would be a sabotage of Wikimedia. You don't test copyright by violating the copyright of the same organization you're involved with! I've sometimes thought it would be nice if WMF could defend community copyrights in court, but that seems to be a very different discussion.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, pajz, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. I must amend my previous statement; I thought Wikipedia categories were all represented on Wikidata, but it appears they may not be. Maybe I don't know how to use Wikidata, or maybe this is something that could be possible if Wikidata were CC-By-SA. A different example, then, would be translations of article titles into different languages. Aligning article topics across languages, despite that different languages and of course different authors group concepts differently, required conscious decisions by Wikipedians.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, pajz, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. Wikidata has copied the entire ontology of Wikipedia categories. The claim that ontologies are not copyrightable would be controversial at best, actively untrue if our EU experts are to be believed, and certainly should not be an official position taken by a Wikimedia project.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Jarekt, Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, pajz, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment. Tgr: The situation of having the copyright on a project held by a large number of different individuals is not unique, and it does not at all make the copyright invalid like the "monkey selfie". This is the way that most open-source software projects work. Wikimedia content is copyrighted, and the copyrights are held by the individuals who wrote the content. The thing that makes this copyrighted content usable, without having to license it specifically from an infeasibly large number of different people, is the CC-By-SA license. CC-By-SA is definitely not the public domain. It is a license to use the data by meeting two specific requirements, and therefore it's important that we begin the difficult process of making WIkidata follow those requirements. The large number of copyright holders does make it difficult to enforce the license (although, historically, some open source licenses really have been enforced). However, Wikidata is a Wikimedia project! Its responsibility to do the right thing is not based on the threat of enforcement. Wikidata should follow the license of other Wikimedia content because we are all part of the same project, and shouldn't be breaking the license that we expect others to follow.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, pajz, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___ Wikidata-bugs mailing list Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T193728: Solve legal uncertainty of Wikidata
Rspeer added a comment.
I agree that Wikidata has been making a big mistake here.
Many Wikipedia editors put incredible amounts of effort into maintaining things such as its infoboxes and category structure. These are not merely a list of facts about the world -- they are curated, they attempt to be organized into an ontology, and the judgment of what is factual enough involves Wikipedia's editing process and its standards for verifiability. Does anyone here think that the editors all agreed, as they were doing so, that their contributions would be dual-licensed under CC-0 and CC-By-SA?
So Wikidata isn't sharing alike. It's not even meeting the requirement of attribution, given that most facts have 0 references! I have tried to figure out whether there's even implicit attribution of Wikidata facts (knowledge provenance is something that I'm interested in), but tracking the source of any fact mostly involves guessing.
It seems that currently Wikidata is under the "who's gonna stop me" license, like Baidu Baike. Unfortunately, this provides cover to other projects that reuse large amounts of content from Wikipedia ("look, everyone ignores the actual terms of CC licenses! Even this official Wikimedia project does it!").
It is going to take a lot of effort to make Wikidata follow Creative Commons licenses. It seems possible -- there are copyright gnomes who put lots of effort into sorting out the many licenses of Wikimedia Commons. But the result will probably be complex, like Commons is.
My unfortunate suggestion is that Wikidata should start by removing its claim to be CC-0. Even with nothing to replace it with at the moment. Users ought to be aware of this legal limbo, and shouldn't be granted a false license.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T193728EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: RspeerCc: Rspeer, OhKayeSierra, Aschmidt, AndrewSu, Mateusz_Konieczny, Maxlath, Huji, Glrx, Realworldobject, Ltrlg, pajz, Papapep, Tgr, Ayack, Gnom1, MichaelMaggs, MisterSynergy, Pasleim, Cirdan, 0x010C, Sylvain_WMFr, Denny, Ivanhercaz, Pintoch, Lydia_Pintscher, Lea_Lacroix_WMDE, Aklapper, Psychoslave, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, ZhouZ, Mpaulson, Wikidata-bugs, aude, jayvdb, Slaporte, Mbch331, Jay8g___
Wikidata-bugs mailing list
Wikidata-bugs@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-bugs
