Re: [Wikimedia-l] Board update on Branding: Briefing postponement

[Todd Allen]

And, how might one view it?

Todd

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 11:29 AM Zack McCune  wrote:

> Hello all -
>
> A quick update on timing: this Board briefing has been rescheduled for July
> 28th.
>
> thanks,
>
> - Zack
>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 6:24 AM João Alexandre Peschanski <
> joa...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the update Nataliia. I hope he or she is feeling better. Best,
> > João
> >
> > Em qua., 8 de jul. de 2020 às 14:44, Nataliia Tymkiv <
> > ntym...@wikimedia.org>
> > escreveu:
> >
> > >  Hello! Just a quick update: the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees
> > was
> > > notified by staff on the night of July 7th that the briefing of July
> 8th
> > > needs to be rescheduled because of the illness of one of the key staff
> > > members. We are looking for a new date before the August board meeting,
> > and
> > > we shall share an updated timeline in a few days.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > antanana / Nataliia Tymkiv
> > > Vice Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees
> > >
> > > *NOTICE: You may have received this message outside of your normal
> > working
> > > hours/days, as I usually can work more as a volunteer during weekend.
> You
> > > should not feel obligated to answer it during your days off. Thank you
> in
> > > advance!*
> > > ___
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> > > 
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Zack McCune (he/him)
>
> Director of Brand
>
> Wikimedia Foundation 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

[Pete Forsyth]

Andy, I agree with you on the substance -- that we should get to a place
where there are clearly articulated policies, with widespread buy-in, that
are reliably adhered to.

It's the interpersonal stuff that I feel is distracting in a public
discussion. If you feel it's worthwhile to talk that stuff through, I'd be
happy to do so offlist. But I won't discuss it further on this list, which
amounts to asking our colleagues in the Wikimedia world to endure something
they don't need to. I've already told you I regret my mistaken remark about
your intentions, so if you like, we could leave it at that.

Anyway, for the list -- what would you propose as a next step that you or I
could take, without relying on anybody else in the short term? Can you
think of anything? Or does that strike you as completely impossible? I am
rather skeptical that this particular 20-post thread has moved any hearts
or minds (but perhaps you have reason to disagree with that - ?)

-Pete
--
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:41 PM Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 17:19, Pete Forsyth  wrote:
>
> > Since it seems
> > that multiple people are misunderstanding you on this point, I wonder
> > whether there's anything you could do to express your views on this point
> > more clearly.
>
> Here is the entire post I made to Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard on 27 February:
>
> #~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#
>
> We need answers to the following questions (some asked, but not
> answered, above, some arising from that discussion):
>
> 1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
> 2. where are those rules and policies documented, and why are they not
> public?
> 3. where are those rules and polices discussed and decided?
> 4. what is the process for getting those rules and policies changed
> (or reworded for clarity)?
> 5. how is OTRS overseen, and who by?
> 6. what is the approval process for an individual to become an OTRS agent?
> 7. what is the process for the community to remove an individual's
> OTRS permissions, if they fail to uphold or abide by policy?
> 8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
> process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
> (including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
> 9. which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent, or remove their
> permissions?
> 10. how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?
>
> Clearly, the equivalent for these exists on Commons, and our sister
> projects. OTRS agents can not expect to act without equivalent levels
> of transparency and accountability, even if individual transactions
> are confidential.
>
> #~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#
>
> Please tell me which parts of it could be more clear, and how.
>
> You certainly did not seem to be concerned about a lack of clarity in
> it, when you replied:
>
>Excellent list, Andy. I concur... I think it would be very much in
> the interests of OTRS
>agents and the Wikimedia movement overall to address this list of
> questions in a
>forthright way, and make some adjustments (such as publishing
> policies and a process
>for amending policies)
>
> shortly after I posted it.
>
> Or did you have some other unclear post in mind?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

[Andy Mabbett]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 17:19, Pete Forsyth  wrote:

> Since it seems
> that multiple people are misunderstanding you on this point, I wonder
> whether there's anything you could do to express your views on this point
> more clearly.

Here is the entire post I made to Commons:OTRS/Noticeboard on 27 February:

#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#

We need answers to the following questions (some asked, but not
answered, above, some arising from that discussion):

1. what are OTRS' rules and policies?
2. where are those rules and policies documented, and why are they not public?
3. where are those rules and polices discussed and decided?
4. what is the process for getting those rules and policies changed
(or reworded for clarity)?
5. how is OTRS overseen, and who by?
6. what is the approval process for an individual to become an OTRS agent?
7. what is the process for the community to remove an individual's
OTRS permissions, if they fail to uphold or abide by policy?
8. if an individual has been acting contrary to policy, what is the
process for reviewing and if necessary overturning their past actions
(including contacting and apologising to their correspondents)?
9. which individuals can make someone an OTRS agent, or remove their
permissions?
10. how are the individuals in #9 appointed and overseen?

Clearly, the equivalent for these exists on Commons, and our sister
projects. OTRS agents can not expect to act without equivalent levels
of transparency and accountability, even if individual transactions
are confidential.

#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#~#

Please tell me which parts of it could be more clear, and how.

You certainly did not seem to be concerned about a lack of clarity in
it, when you replied:

   Excellent list, Andy. I concur... I think it would be very much in
the interests of OTRS
   agents and the Wikimedia movement overall to address this list of
questions in a
   forthright way, and make some adjustments (such as publishing
policies and a process
   for amending policies)

shortly after I posted it.

Or did you have some other unclear post in mind?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Board update on Branding: Briefing postponement

[Zack McCune]

Hello all -

A quick update on timing: this Board briefing has been rescheduled for July
28th.

thanks,

- Zack

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 6:24 AM João Alexandre Peschanski 
wrote:

> Thanks for the update Nataliia. I hope he or she is feeling better. Best,
> João
>
> Em qua., 8 de jul. de 2020 às 14:44, Nataliia Tymkiv <
> ntym...@wikimedia.org>
> escreveu:
>
> >  Hello! Just a quick update: the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees
> was
> > notified by staff on the night of July 7th that the briefing of July 8th
> > needs to be rescheduled because of the illness of one of the key staff
> > members. We are looking for a new date before the August board meeting,
> and
> > we shall share an updated timeline in a few days.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > antanana / Nataliia Tymkiv
> > Vice Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees
> >
> > *NOTICE: You may have received this message outside of your normal
> working
> > hours/days, as I usually can work more as a volunteer during weekend. You
> > should not feel obligated to answer it during your days off. Thank you in
> > advance!*
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
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> 



-- 

Zack McCune (he/him)

Director of Brand

Wikimedia Foundation 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

[Pete Forsyth]

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 4:17 AM Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 02:47, Pete Forsyth  wrote:
>
> > We would be better off if
> > there were clearly articulated, published policies for OTRS
>
> Indeed.
>

Glad we agree on this central point! I think if we can stick to mapping out
a path that would get us to this, we can have. aproductive discussion.

>
> > I think Andy wants to hold somebody responsible for the
> > absence of those things
>
> You are mistaken; and I have complained previously in this thread and
> in the on-wiki discussion about other people attempting to ascribe to
> me motives or intentions that are not mine.
>
> I am unsure why this happens, why people are so bad at it, or what
> purpose it is supposed to achieve.
>
> Please do not do so.
>

My apologies. I will be more careful about it going forward. Since it seems
that multiple people are misunderstanding you on this point, I wonder
whether there's anything you could do to express your views on this point
more clearly.


>
> > But I would very much support an effort to draft, review, and publish
> > policies and procedures going forward.
>
> This is the wrong order; we /first/ need OTRS (or whoever oversees
> OTRS, though five months after asking, we still don't know who that
> is, if anyone) to publish its existing policies etc; then we can
> review them; then we can, if necessary, draft and propose changes or
> additions. And report any instances where OTRS agents are not acting
> within them.
>

I don't disagree -- the order you describe would be optimal. But it's not
in your control, it's not in my control, and I haven't seen anybody who has
access to that information commit to taking the first steps. So, it seems
worthwhile to discuss alternate ways to get to a goal that (I think)
everybody would support. Even if they're a little messy or less than
optimal. To me, the outcome is far more important than a perfect process.

>
> > For what it's worth, I was an OTRS agent for several years; but,
> precisely
> > because of the absence of policies
>
> This was presumably historical, because we have been told that there
> are (now) polices, but they are (partly, perhaps mostly) on a
> non-public wiki.
>

Let me clarify -- I didn't say there were no policies at all, but that the
absence of certain policies made it specifically challenging for me. If
memory serves, there were a few policy pages on the OTRS wiki, but not as
much detail as I would have liked to see, and there were transparency and
trust issues within the OTRS world (between agents and OTRS admins) as
well, which made internal discussion there challenging too.

-Pete
--
[[User:Peteforsyth]]
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Operation and oversight of OTRS system

[Andy Mabbett]

On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 02:47, Pete Forsyth  wrote:

> We would be better off if
> there were clearly articulated, published policies for OTRS

Indeed.

> I think Andy wants to hold somebody responsible for the
> absence of those things

You are mistaken; and I have complained previously in this thread and
in the on-wiki discussion about other people attempting to ascribe to
me motives or intentions that are not mine.

I am unsure why this happens, why people are so bad at it, or what
purpose it is supposed to achieve.

Please do not do so.

> But I would very much support an effort to draft, review, and publish
> policies and procedures going forward.

This is the wrong order; we /first/ need OTRS (or whoever oversees
OTRS, though five months after asking, we still don't know who that
is, if anyone) to publish its existing policies etc; then we can
review them; then we can, if necessary, draft and propose changes or
additions. And report any instances where OTRS agents are not acting
within them.

> For what it's worth, I was an OTRS agent for several years; but, precisely
> because of the absence of policies

This was presumably historical, because we have been told that there
are (now) polices, but they are (partly, perhaps mostly) on a
non-public wiki.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing Diff – a blog by and for the Wikimedia volunteer community

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 23:42, Quim Gil  wrote:

> When we announced Next steps for Wikimedia Space [1] we said that the Space
> blog would continue in a new home, and this is exactly what we have done.

It is not exactly what you have done, because you have merged it with
(content from) another blog or blogs.

> In order to identify the posts coming from the
> Wikimedia Blog, the Wikimedia Foundation site or Space, we have attached a
> string of text. Andy, this is why your now imported blog post from 2017 has
> that extra text.

If the aim is to "identify the posts coming from the Wikimedia Blog",
then text saying "This is an archived post from blog.wikimedia.org"
will suffice.

> > > > What consultation was carried out with contributors, and the
> > > > wider the Wikimedia community, to inform this change?

Although you quoted it, you seem to have overlooked this question.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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