Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[David Cuenca]

To add up a couple of comments to what Denny said, from my experience with
Wikisource, reaching out to international, loosely connected communities is
already a big challenge on its own. I would like to invite Wiktionary
contributors to take a look to this Individual Engagement Grant project
that Aubrey and me are doing for Wikisource, because maybe it would make
sense that a group of involved Wiktionarians started a similar initiative
for Wiktionary. The original application can be found here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision

And the midterm report:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Elaborate_Wikisource_strategic_vision

If anyone from the Wiktionary community wants to step forward, I would be
more than happy to share experiences and provide advice.

Cheers,
Micru

On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Denny Vrandečić <
denny.vrande...@wikimedia.de> wrote:

> [Sorry for cross-posting]
>
> Yes, I agree that the OmegaWiki community should be involved in the
> discussions, and I pointed GerardM to our proposals whenever and
> discussions, using him as a liaison. We also looked and keep looking at the
> OmegaWiki data model to see what we are missing.
>
> Our latest proposal is different from OmegaWiki in two major points:
>
> * our primary goal is to provide support for structured data in the
> Wiktionaries. We do not plan to be the main resource ourselves, where
> readers come to in order to look up something, we merely provide structured
> data that a Wiktionary may or may not use. This parallels the role of
> Wikidata has with regards to Wikipedia. This also highlights the difference
> between Wikidata and OmegaWiki, since OmegaWiki's goal is "to create a
> dictionary of all words of all languages, including lexical, terminological
> and ontological information."
>
> * a smaller difference is the data model. Wikidata's latest proposal to
> support Wiktionary is centered around lexemes, and we do not assume that
> there is such a things as a language-independent defined meaning. But no
> matter what model we end up with, it is important to ensure that the bulk
> of the data could freely flow between the projects, and even though we
> might disagree on this issue in the modeling, it is ensured that the
> exchange of data is widely possible.
>
> We tried to keep notes on the discussion we had today: <
> http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata>
>
> My major take home message for me is that:
> * the proposal needs more visual elements, especially a mock-up or sketch
> of how it would look like and how it could be used on the Wiktionaries
> * there is no generally accepted place for a discussion that involves all
> Wiktionary projects. Still, my initial decision to have the discussion on
> the Wikidata wiki was not a good one, and it should and will be moved to
> Meta.
>
> Having said that, the current proposal for the data model of how to support
> Wiktionary with Wikidata seems to have garnered a lot of support so far. So
> this is what I will continue building upon. Further comments are extremely
> welcomed. You can find it here:
>
> 
>
> As said, it will be moved to Meta, as soon as the requested mockups and
> extensions are done.
>
> Cheers,
> Denny
>
>
>
>
>
> 2013/8/10 Samuel Klein 
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland 
> wrote:
> > >> I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale 
> wrote:
> > > Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
> > > because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,
> >
> > This is not actually the case.
> > There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at
> > least simply providing hosting.  It stalled because the code needed a
> > security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to
> > put some time into that.  The OW editors and dev were very interested
> > in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined
> > project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and
> > translations.
> >
> > Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the
> > criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
> > * It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
> > * It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
> > scope of free knowledge
> > * It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
> > grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years
> > alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
> > * It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki
> >
> > Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary
> > update -- and this idea was proposed and taken s

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[Denny Vrandečić]

[Sorry for cross-posting]

Yes, I agree that the OmegaWiki community should be involved in the
discussions, and I pointed GerardM to our proposals whenever and
discussions, using him as a liaison. We also looked and keep looking at the
OmegaWiki data model to see what we are missing.

Our latest proposal is different from OmegaWiki in two major points:

* our primary goal is to provide support for structured data in the
Wiktionaries. We do not plan to be the main resource ourselves, where
readers come to in order to look up something, we merely provide structured
data that a Wiktionary may or may not use. This parallels the role of
Wikidata has with regards to Wikipedia. This also highlights the difference
between Wikidata and OmegaWiki, since OmegaWiki's goal is "to create a
dictionary of all words of all languages, including lexical, terminological
and ontological information."

* a smaller difference is the data model. Wikidata's latest proposal to
support Wiktionary is centered around lexemes, and we do not assume that
there is such a things as a language-independent defined meaning. But no
matter what model we end up with, it is important to ensure that the bulk
of the data could freely flow between the projects, and even though we
might disagree on this issue in the modeling, it is ensured that the
exchange of data is widely possible.

We tried to keep notes on the discussion we had today: <
http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata>

My major take home message for me is that:
* the proposal needs more visual elements, especially a mock-up or sketch
of how it would look like and how it could be used on the Wiktionaries
* there is no generally accepted place for a discussion that involves all
Wiktionary projects. Still, my initial decision to have the discussion on
the Wikidata wiki was not a good one, and it should and will be moved to
Meta.

Having said that, the current proposal for the data model of how to support
Wiktionary with Wikidata seems to have garnered a lot of support so far. So
this is what I will continue building upon. Further comments are extremely
welcomed. You can find it here:



As said, it will be moved to Meta, as soon as the requested mockups and
extensions are done.

Cheers,
Denny





2013/8/10 Samuel Klein 

> Hello,
>
> > On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland  wrote:
> >> I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
>
> Agreed.
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale  wrote:
> > Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
> > because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,
>
> This is not actually the case.
> There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at
> least simply providing hosting.  It stalled because the code needed a
> security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to
> put some time into that.  The OW editors and dev were very interested
> in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined
> project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and
> translations.
>
> Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the
> criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
> * It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
> * It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
> scope of free knowledge
> * It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
> grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years
> alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
> * It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki
>
> Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary
> update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW
> devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions
> about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to
> dedicate themselves to.
>
> Regards,
> Sam.
>
> ___
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> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



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Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[Denny Vrandečić]

We are keeping notes on Etherpad
http://epl.wikimedia.org/p/WiktionaryAndWikidata

If connectivity allows, you can also try to connect via Hangout or Skype or
IRC. Ping aude or me on #wikimedia-wikidata on IRC.

Cheers,
Denny




2013/8/10 Samuel Klein 

> Hello,
>
> > On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland  wrote:
> >> I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
>
> Agreed.
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale  wrote:
> > Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
> > because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,
>
> This is not actually the case.
> There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at
> least simply providing hosting.  It stalled because the code needed a
> security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to
> put some time into that.  The OW editors and dev were very interested
> in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined
> project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and
> translations.
>
> Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the
> criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
> * It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
> * It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
> scope of free knowledge
> * It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
> grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years
> alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
> * It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki
>
> Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary
> update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW
> devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions
> about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to
> dedicate themselves to.
>
> Regards,
> Sam.
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>



-- 
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Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Obentrautstr. 72 | 10963 Berlin
Tel. +49-30-219 158 26-0 | http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.
Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter
der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[Samuel Klein]

Hello,

> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland  wrote:
>> I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.

Agreed.

On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 12:22 PM, Laura Hale  wrote:
> Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
> because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary,

This is not actually the case.
There was overwhelming community support for adopting Omegawiki - at
least simply providing hosting.  It stalled because the code needed a
security and style review, and Kip (the lead developer) was going to
put some time into that.  The OW editors and dev were very interested
in finding a way forward that involved Wikidata and led to a combined
project with a single repository of terms, meanings, definitions and
translations.

Recap: The page describing the OmegaWiki project satisfies all of the
criteria for requesting WMF adoption.
* It is well-defined on Meta http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Omegawiki
* It describes an interesting idea clearly aligned with expanding the
scope of free knowledge
* It is not a 'competing' project to Wiktionaries; it is an idea that
grew out of the Wiktionary community, has been developed for years
alongside it, and shares many active contributors and linguiaphiles.
* It started an RfC which garnered 85% support for adoption.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Adopt_OmegaWiki

Even if the current OW code is not used at all for a future Wiktionary
update -- and this idea was proposed and taken seriously by the OW
devs -- their community of contributors should be part of discussions
about how to solve the Wiktionary problem that they were the first to
dedicate themselves to.

Regards,
Sam.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[JP Béland]

Just because the service Wikidata could provide to Wiktionaries is exactly
what Omegawiki is doing. I'm not saying to talk about Omegawiki joining WMF
but looking at a way to use what volunteers already committed time to
develop on Omegawiki on Wikidata implementation for Wiktionaries.
 On Aug 10, 2013 12:22 AM, "Laura Hale"  wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland  wrote:
>
> > I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
> >
>
> Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
> because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary, and the
> technology they use cannot be supported with the existing resources
> available.  There was a great deal of community reasoned community
> opposition.
>
> If they independently want to engage in the process on the Wikidata side
> without a goal of creating a competing Wikimedia project, that is one
> thing... but bringing them to the table as equals sets bad precedent for
> sister projects, contributor retention, community support, etc.
>
>
> --
> twitter: purplepopple
> blog: ozziesport.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[Laura Hale]

On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:13 PM, JP Béland  wrote:

> I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.
>

Why? The question of moving them into the WMF fold was pretty much no,
because the project has an overlapping purpose with Wiktionary, and the
technology they use cannot be supported with the existing resources
available.  There was a great deal of community reasoned community
opposition.

If they independently want to engage in the process on the Wikidata side
without a goal of creating a competing Wikimedia project, that is one
thing... but bringing them to the table as equals sets bad precedent for
sister projects, contributor retention, community support, etc.


-- 
twitter: purplepopple
blog: ozziesport.com
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[JP Béland]

I agree. We also need to include the Omegawiki community.

JP
On Aug 9, 2013 8:17 PM, "Mathieu Stumpf" 
wrote:

> Le 2013-08-09 13:04, Romaine Wiki a écrit :
>
>> Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any
>> of the Dutch users is, I can't say for others.
>>
>> I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside
>> the wider Wiktionary community. To me the group of users participating
>> is too narrow. Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users
>> from Wiktionary do not read that. I think a Wikt-community wide
>> discussion is needed.
>>
>
> I agree, and I think meta would be the most obvious channel for such
> a discussion.
>
> As said in the previous email, there's already [[Wiktionary future]]
> which is waiting for contributions and discussion on meta. Anyway,
> whatever the canal, it would be realy important to make aware as
> much contributors as possible aware of this initiative, so they can
> provide relevant feedback specific to their needs.
>
>
>> Romaine
>>
>>
>> --**--
>> On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca  wrote:
>>
>>  Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata
>>  To: wiktionary-l@lists.wikimedia.**org,
>> "Wikimania general list (open
>> subscription)" 
>> >,
>> "Discussion list for
>> the Wikidata project." 
>> >,
>> "Wikimedia
>> Mailing List" 
>> 
>> >
>>  Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM
>>
>>  Hi,
>>
>>
>>  If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating
>>  in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in
>>  Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several
>>  proposals.
>>
>>
>>
>>  http://wikimania2013.**wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_**
>> Wiktionary_in_Wikidata
>>
>>  Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm
>>
>>
>>  Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)
>>
>>  See you there,
>>  Micru
>>
>>
>>  -Inline Attachment Follows-
>>
>>  __**_
>>  Wikidata-l mailing list
>>  wikidat...@lists.wikimedia.org
>>  
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>> __**_
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> wikidat...@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>
> --
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> http://www.culture-libre.org/
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[Mathieu Stumpf]

Le 2013-08-09 13:04, Romaine Wiki a écrit :

Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any
of the Dutch users is, I can't say for others.

I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside
the wider Wiktionary community. To me the group of users 
participating

is too narrow. Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users
from Wiktionary do not read that. I think a Wikt-community wide
discussion is needed.


I agree, and I think meta would be the most obvious channel for such
a discussion.

As said in the previous email, there's already [[Wiktionary future]]
which is waiting for contributions and discussion on meta. Anyway,
whatever the canal, it would be realy important to make aware as
much contributors as possible aware of this initiative, so they can
provide relevant feedback specific to their needs.



Romaine



On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca  wrote:

 Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in 
Wikidata

 To: wiktionar...@lists.wikimedia.org, "Wikimania general list (open
subscription)" , "Discussion list 
for

the Wikidata project." , "Wikimedia
Mailing List" 
 Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM

 Hi,


 If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating
 in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in
 Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several
 proposals.



 
http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata


 Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm


 Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)

 See you there,
 Micru


 -Inline Attachment Follows-

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata

[Romaine Wiki]

Are there much users from Wiktionary in Hong Kong? I do not think any of the 
Dutch users is, I can't say for others.

I think it would be essential that this subject is discussed inside the wider 
Wiktionary community. To me the group of users participating is too narrow. 
Also is a mailing list not handy as most of the users from Wiktionary do not 
read that. I think a Wikt-community wide discussion is needed.

Romaine



On Fri, 8/9/13, David Cuenca  wrote:

 Subject: [Wikidata-l] Meeting about the support of Wiktionary in Wikidata
 To: wiktionar...@lists.wikimedia.org, "Wikimania general list (open 
subscription)" , "Discussion list for the 
Wikidata project." , "Wikimedia Mailing List" 

 Date: Friday, August 9, 2013, 4:43 AM
 
 Hi,
 
 
 If there is someone in Wikimania interested in participating
 in the talks about the future support of Wiktionary in
 Wikidata, we will having a discussion about the several
 proposals.
 
 
 
 http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Support_of_Wiktionary_in_Wikidata
 
 Date : Saturday, 10 Aug, 11:30 am - 1:00 pm
 
 
 Place: Y520 (block Y, 5th floor)
 
 See you there,
 Micru
 
 
 -Inline Attachment Follows-
 
 ___
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 wikidat...@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
 

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