Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Ray Saintonge wrote: > On 04/18/12 6:54 AM, Mike Dupont wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Fae wrote: >>> >>> I just would prefer that this not be a launch pad for change or >>> tangential discussions. >>> >>> fair enough! lets keep it that way. We dont want to give that >> >> madman Breivik more influence that he has. >> > > The influence that people like Breivik have is nourished by feeding trolls. > > We have no control over how any individual may choose to [mis]interpret any > article that he reads. Try as we may to choose our neutralities, there will > always be someone to see it differently. > Sadly, he has a point. There are definite crusaders on the English Language wikipedia, trying to keep it from acknowledging outside of europe influences. Check the talk page for the list of oldest universities in the world. Or check the article on Catalan Numbers. There is a sentence that baldly claims Catalan Numbers were "invented here", and then there is a weasel worded statement noting that evidence exists that Chinese Mathematicians knew and used them. -- -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On 04/18/12 6:54 AM, Mike Dupont wrote: On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Fae wrote: I just would prefer that this not be a launch pad for change or tangential discussions. fair enough! lets keep it that way. We dont want to give that madman Breivik more influence that he has. The influence that people like Breivik have is nourished by feeding trolls. We have no control over how any individual may choose to [mis]interpret any article that he reads. Try as we may to choose our neutralities, there will always be someone to see it differently. Ray ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:04 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: > People like Breivik who have a desire to promote fringe views turn up to > edit Wikipedia in droves. I would not be surprised if he had an account, > like Bedell before him. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Pentagon_shooting > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/JPatrickBedell > According to this article http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/rogaland/1.8045907 Breivik was indeed a contributor, to the Norwegian Wikipedia at least. And he specifically mentioned Wikipedia in his manifesto as a vital propaganda tool, saying: "The European resistance movement must prioritize contributions to Wikipedia, as a general method to introduce our worldview, our political doctrines and our definition of history. Wikipedia should not be underestimated as the primary source to create "established truths". We must strive to present our views in the most favorable way, while we put our enemies into disrepute. It is a venue we have to focus on." In court, he specifically praised the content of the English Wikipedia, according to Guardian reporter Helen Pidd. He apparently said that much of his "learning" comes from Wikipedia and that "The English articles there contain a lot of information". Andreas ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
2012/4/18 Hans A. Rosbach : > You can find the live reporting in the Norwegian newspaper VG here: > https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/22-juli/rettssaken/artikkel.php?artid=10065284 So basically, he's interested in history and the history of religion, among other subjects. He claims to have spent 15.000 hours reading about them, gathering information from a multitude of sources, among them Wikipedia. Hardly something that truly merits "Wikipedia made me do it" headlines. //Johan Jönsson -- http://johanjonsson.net/wikipedia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
People like Breivik who have a desire to promote fringe views turn up to edit Wikipedia in droves. I would not be surprised if he had an account, like Bedell before him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Pentagon_shooting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/JPatrickBedell A. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
You can find the live reporting in the Norwegian newspaper VG here: https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/22-juli/rettssaken/artikkel.php?artid=10065284 I found the google translate result of the relevant portion to be readable. Search for *Aktor Inga Bejer-Engh: Men du, når du snakker om 15.000 timer. Hva regner du inn der da? Hva slags type lesning eller informasjonsinnhenting er det du trekker inn? * in the document. The context is his lack of formal education. Hans A. Rosbach On 18 April 2012 15:44, Mike Dupont wrote: > Yes, I also found it upsetting, but I decided to bring this topic up as > someone had sent it to me, > and thought that it is better that we know about what is going on before it > hits us and we dont know about it. > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Fae wrote: > > > I find this context upsetting regardless of the points being raised. > > > > > -- > James Michael DuPont > Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Fae wrote: > I just would prefer that this not be a launch pad for change or > tangential discussions. > > fair enough! lets keep it that way. We dont want to give that madman Breivik more influence that he has. mike ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On 18 April 2012 14:44, Mike Dupont wrote: > Yes, I also found it upsetting, but I decided to bring this topic up as > someone had sent it to me, > and thought that it is better that we know about what is going on before it > hits us and we dont know about it. I'm not having a poke at you Mike, I agree we should note it as possibly newsworthy and be prepared for questions that might arise. I just would prefer that this not be a launch pad for change or tangential discussions. Thanks, Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
Yes, I also found it upsetting, but I decided to bring this topic up as someone had sent it to me, and thought that it is better that we know about what is going on before it hits us and we dont know about it. On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Fae wrote: > I find this context upsetting regardless of the points being raised. -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
I find this context upsetting regardless of the points being raised. My personal request for any reader of this email thread, is that if there are any changes you would like to see on Wikipedia or other Wikimedia projects, please don't use anything that this monster says as a reason for action. It would be a terrible starting point and taint any discussion. Nothing he has to say has any chance of being notable or rational enough for us to concern ourselves about. I look forward to him being permanently locked away from society and we can turn our backs and move on. Thanks, Fae -- http://enwp.org/user_talk:Fae http://enwp.org/user:Fae/events ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
Thanks, for that, I really dont want to only talk about my personal pet peeves here, but make the case that we have a huge backlog of disputes that are not really being looked into. My vision is a conflict resolution system somewhat like a court system with a hearing, jury and judge. From that view, wp has a huge backlog of open cases. mike On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Marc Riddell wrote: > I also agree with Mike that the growing size and complexity of the > Encyclopedia needs stronger and more objective oversight. > -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
>> on 4/18/12 4:53 AM, Mike Dupont at jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: >> >>> this just in, scary. >>> >>> Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia >>> >> http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest ->> i >>> nfluence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 On 18 April 2012 13:55, Marc Riddell wrote: >> >> Unless he expanded on his statement, which isn't in the posted clip, his >> "answer" could very well be a sarcastic non-answer to an entity he believes >> has neither credibility nor authority over him. >> >> Marc Riddell > > > It's my understanding that what he said is that Wikipedia was venue he used > for researching his ideology. > > At the end of the day Wikipedia is full of right wing material - because it > is a part of history/culture and we have to record it (neutrally). It is > entirely possible to take that material and use it to build a world view. > > This is what people do anyway. > > We simply have to be accepting of the fact that, while our intent might be > to spread a more inclusive society by opening up knowledge to the masses, > there is a portion of the population who will form views we find abhorrent. > I agree with you, Thomas, that some persons are going to use - or twist - facts to support their own, already-established views. I also agree with Mike that the growing size and complexity of the Encyclopedia needs stronger and more objective oversight. Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On 18 April 2012 13:55, Marc Riddell wrote: > on 4/18/12 4:53 AM, Mike Dupont at jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: > > > this just in, scary. > > > > Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia > > > http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest-i > > nfluence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 > > Unless he expanded on his statement, which isn't in the posted clip, his > "answer" could very well be a sarcastic non-answer to an entity he believes > has neither credibility nor authority over him. > > Marc Riddell It's my understanding that what he said is that Wikipedia was venue he used for researching his ideology. At the end of the day Wikipedia is full of right wing material - because it is a part of history/culture and we have to record it (neutrally). It is entirely possible to take that material and use it to build a world view. This is what people do anyway. We simply have to be accepting of the fact that, while our intent might be to spread a more inclusive society by opening up knowledge to the masses, there is a portion of the population who will form views we find abhorrent. Tom ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
on 4/18/12 4:53 AM, Mike Dupont at jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: > this just in, scary. > > Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia > http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest-i > nfluence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 Unless he expanded on his statement, which isn't in the posted clip, his "answer" could very well be a sarcastic non-answer to an entity he believes has neither credibility nor authority over him. Marc Riddell ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On 18 April 2012 09:53, Mike Dupont wrote: > Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia > http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest-influence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 The word "influence" appears to have been a journalist's invention and not something said by Breivik during the trial. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 11:27 AM, George Herbert wrote: > Does an open content, liberal open encyclopedia sound like we'd be his > friend? > Well I agree that this guy was out to do harm, and that we cannot trust anything he says as being truthful. People will use radicals like this for pushing more controls and less freedom. On the other side, I think that wikipedia has a lot of work to do in cleaning up. warning, now comes my chip on the shoulder, you can skip this if you want. RANT BEGIN there are a great deal of inconsistencies on fringe topics (and i wont bore you with the name of my favorite topic right now, but you can guess) where both sides of the argument are equally twisted. there is a lack of experienced moderators and also the problem is that you dont want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. So really I think for my favorite topics the neutrally is really lacking and radicals reign. this inspires more radicals and causes a total lack of trust in wikipedia on the other side of the POV. I have met people who think that wikipedia should be boycotted because they are seen to be supporting one side of the argument, and this is just because no one has the time to deal with the large number of organized radicals. I try to tell them that they can also get involved and make things better, but my personal experience in the wikihounding has also made me lose all interest in continued editing on some topics. How can I in good faith ask a total noob to walk in the lions den? RANT END thanks, mike -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 11:08 AM, Svip wrote: > On 18 April 2012 10:53, Mike Dupont wrote: > >> this just in, scary. >> >> Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia >> http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest-influence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 > > Maybe he read the articles during vandalism? Nah, he probably just read neutral information from Wikipedia - and then consumed that with a lot of confirmation bias. It's a fact of life - Wikipedia makes information more easily available for everyone, also for those who use it for bad. -- André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
We should probably not read too much into this. His public statements seem to have been calculated to harm his perceived enemies. Does an open content, liberal open encyclopedia sound like we'd be his friend? George William Herbert Sent from my iPhone On Apr 18, 2012, at 2:10, Anirudh Bhati wrote: > Open source models have also inspired guerrilla insurgent groups. > > http://www.zinelibrary.info/fourth-generation-warfare-standing-orders-open-source-insurgencies > (Open Source Jihad) > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Svip wrote: > >> On 18 April 2012 10:53, Mike Dupont >> wrote: >> >>> this just in, scary. >>> >>> Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia >>> >> http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest-influence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 >> >> Maybe he read the articles during vandalism? >> >> ___ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >> > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
Open source models have also inspired guerrilla insurgent groups. http://www.zinelibrary.info/fourth-generation-warfare-standing-orders-open-source-insurgencies (Open Source Jihad) On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Svip wrote: > On 18 April 2012 10:53, Mike Dupont > wrote: > > > this just in, scary. > > > > Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia > > > http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest-influence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 > > Maybe he read the articles during vandalism? > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
On 18 April 2012 10:53, Mike Dupont wrote: > this just in, scary. > > Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia > http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest-influence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 Maybe he read the articles during vandalism? ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
[Wikimedia-l] Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia
this just in, scary. Breivik: My Biggest Influence Was Wikipedia http://www.businessinsider.com/norwegian-terrorist-anders-breivik-my-biggest-influence-was-wikipedia-2012-4#ixzz1sN3LZci6 mike -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
