Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Peter Southwood]

I think I agree with this.
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Gerard Meijssen
Sent: 21 February 2020 15:50
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

Hoi,
There are too many places where all kinds of conversations are held.
Everyone expects that others make use of their preferred platform. I can
use wikis and I am not able to cover all the Wikis where all kinds of
conversations are held that may be or may not be of interest to me.

As chaos reigns supreme we decidedly do not communicate well. Even this
platform is boycotted by some and some are boycotted from this platform. We
are really bad at getting communication going because any and all
conversations echo from different points in other directions.
Thanks,
   Gerard

On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 10:31, James Salsman  wrote:

> When we decide to use something other than wikis to help those who
> don't use wikis, instead of helping those who don't use wikis to use
> them, how is that not turning our backs on project editor recruitment?
> Is the problem that people can't use wikis or that they don't yet know
> how? It just seems like a profound waste to keep building new walled
> gardens at the expense of onboarding.
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
There are too many places where all kinds of conversations are held.
Everyone expects that others make use of their preferred platform. I can
use wikis and I am not able to cover all the Wikis where all kinds of
conversations are held that may be or may not be of interest to me.

As chaos reigns supreme we decidedly do not communicate well. Even this
platform is boycotted by some and some are boycotted from this platform. We
are really bad at getting communication going because any and all
conversations echo from different points in other directions.
Thanks,
   Gerard

On Fri, 21 Feb 2020 at 10:31, James Salsman  wrote:

> When we decide to use something other than wikis to help those who
> don't use wikis, instead of helping those who don't use wikis to use
> them, how is that not turning our backs on project editor recruitment?
> Is the problem that people can't use wikis or that they don't yet know
> how? It just seems like a profound waste to keep building new walled
> gardens at the expense of onboarding.
>
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[James Salsman]

When we decide to use something other than wikis to help those who
don't use wikis, instead of helping those who don't use wikis to use
them, how is that not turning our backs on project editor recruitment?
Is the problem that people can't use wikis or that they don't yet know
how? It just seems like a profound waste to keep building new walled
gardens at the expense of onboarding.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Peter Southwood]

Agree about the 3 features, have not given sufficient though to the rest yet to 
comment.
Cheers,
Peter
-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Aron Manning
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 4:04 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

Thank you, Quim Gil and your team all the effort that went into
discuss-space. We've seen a great platform being developed.
It was far from ready, however, and my impression was we were in a
pre-release phase. To add to the lessons learned, let me share my thoughts
on this.

From the recurring feedback that the forum did not become part of
contributors' everyday workflow, that groups are still using facebook for
similar purposes, we can deduce that a crucial feature-set was missing:
integration with our everyday on-wiki workflow. This would include 3
features:
* Notifications within Echo.
* Automatic listing of active and on-topic discussions on wiki pages (in
project namespace mostly).
* Including (transcluding) discussions on wiki-pages.

The first one is crucial, the next two "just" very important. If there will
be any similar solution in the future, these will be the hard criteria for
adoption and success.
Without these features the expectation that this forum becomes widely
adopted was unfounded: it's still in its infancy and it was judged too
early.

The foundation of it - an established forum engine - is solid, any solution
that would be chosen in the future would recreate this or similar
functionality. That would be a massive endeavour. The WMF devs have their
hands full all the time, how would that be possible?

I'm sure the success of such a project hinges on the above critical
features. Even if the WMF stops developing these features, nothing is lost:
interest from volunteers might be enough to develop some of these features.
I've shown interest in one of these, GSoC also will be an opportunity for
motivated developers to contribute and grant proposals could be made for
the most important features. In true collaborative fashion, the WMF can
enable the community to turn this experiment into a fully-featured,
integrated product. I believe this is the best path to take, that's in line
with the Mid-Term Plan's targets.

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 at 11:31, Quim Gil  wrote:

> While we remain committed to this important goal ...


Given how overwhelming the positive expectations are about this project, I
think the best path to take for the WMF is to halt the development, but
continue operating the platform and motivate volunteers to get involved
with its development. At least that's how I see the ideal role of WMF in
our Movement.

The Space blog, which continues to fill
> a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> new home.
>

A subjective note: I think both the blog and the forum would be more
accessible on simpler URLs, I've always found "discuss-space" unusual.
Wikimedia Space is a good name for those projects all together but in the
URLs I find it confusing.

I would have suggested these URLs instead:
* "discuss.wmflabs.org"
  * or simply "discourse.wmflabs.org" as usual in the free-software
community
  * or "forum.wmflabs.org" (following the KISS
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle> principle)
* "blog.wmflabs.org"
* "events.wmflabs.org/calendar"
* "events.wmflabs.org/map"

If any of these is released to production, ".wmflabs.org" would be replaced
by ".wikimedia.org"


Thank you, Quim for asking feedback from the community.

Aron (Demian)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Aron Manning]

Thank you, Quim Gil and your team all the effort that went into
discuss-space. We've seen a great platform being developed.
It was far from ready, however, and my impression was we were in a
pre-release phase. To add to the lessons learned, let me share my thoughts
on this.

From the recurring feedback that the forum did not become part of
contributors' everyday workflow, that groups are still using facebook for
similar purposes, we can deduce that a crucial feature-set was missing:
integration with our everyday on-wiki workflow. This would include 3
features:
* Notifications within Echo.
* Automatic listing of active and on-topic discussions on wiki pages (in
project namespace mostly).
* Including (transcluding) discussions on wiki-pages.

The first one is crucial, the next two "just" very important. If there will
be any similar solution in the future, these will be the hard criteria for
adoption and success.
Without these features the expectation that this forum becomes widely
adopted was unfounded: it's still in its infancy and it was judged too
early.

The foundation of it - an established forum engine - is solid, any solution
that would be chosen in the future would recreate this or similar
functionality. That would be a massive endeavour. The WMF devs have their
hands full all the time, how would that be possible?

I'm sure the success of such a project hinges on the above critical
features. Even if the WMF stops developing these features, nothing is lost:
interest from volunteers might be enough to develop some of these features.
I've shown interest in one of these, GSoC also will be an opportunity for
motivated developers to contribute and grant proposals could be made for
the most important features. In true collaborative fashion, the WMF can
enable the community to turn this experiment into a fully-featured,
integrated product. I believe this is the best path to take, that's in line
with the Mid-Term Plan's targets.

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 at 11:31, Quim Gil  wrote:

> While we remain committed to this important goal ...


Given how overwhelming the positive expectations are about this project, I
think the best path to take for the WMF is to halt the development, but
continue operating the platform and motivate volunteers to get involved
with its development. At least that's how I see the ideal role of WMF in
our Movement.

The Space blog, which continues to fill
> a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> new home.
>

A subjective note: I think both the blog and the forum would be more
accessible on simpler URLs, I've always found "discuss-space" unusual.
Wikimedia Space is a good name for those projects all together but in the
URLs I find it confusing.

I would have suggested these URLs instead:
* "discuss.wmflabs.org"
  * or simply "discourse.wmflabs.org" as usual in the free-software
community
  * or "forum.wmflabs.org" (following the KISS
 principle)
* "blog.wmflabs.org"
* "events.wmflabs.org/calendar"
* "events.wmflabs.org/map"

If any of these is released to production, ".wmflabs.org" would be replaced
by ".wikimedia.org"


Thank you, Quim for asking feedback from the community.

Aron (Demian)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Aron Manning]

Also +1 to Guillaume's comment, I couldn't have said better. A
user-friendly forum, like discuss-space is most needed by those, who want
to join the movement, whom the WMF wants to attract, not to those who are
comfortable with the current solutions.

And IRC being an appropriate real-time platform? It's a serious privacy
violation with the IP addresses published. It took me an hour to learn
about cloaks (to hide the IP) and find someone, who would add a cloak...
how many newbies would do that?
IRC also goes against the wiki way with "forgetting" all the history, about
which I always had concerns besides that it's very impractical: long-term
discussions cannot take place or the user has to be always online...

Aron (Demian)

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 23:32, Guillaume Paumier 
wrote:

> > That perspective suffers from a lack of empathy. "The tools we already
> have" may work for the limited sample of the population who are currently
> using them. Assuming that that sample is representative is flawed and is a
> classic example of survivorship bias. If we have learned anything from the
> Space experiment and from years of strategy discussions, it is that the
> tools we currently have do not, in fact, work just fine for a large number
> of people, whose voices are missing from our discussions and content.
>
> --
> Guillaume Paumier
> (he/him)
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Victoria Coleman]

+1 to Guillaume’s comment. 

Best,


Victoria Coleman

> On Feb 19, 2020, at 2:31 PM, Guillaume Paumier  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Le mer. 19 févr. 2020 à 10:31, Todd Allen  a écrit :
> 
>> I don't think anyone had bad intentions. It was just redundant.
>> 
>> Real time communication is on IRC. Asynchronous communication is either on
>> the wiki, preferably, or on the mailing list.
>> 
>> Quit trying to make us TwitFaceTube. The tools we already have work just
>> fine.
> 
> 
> That perspective suffers from a lack of empathy. "The tools we already
> have" may work for the limited sample of the population who are currently
> using them. Assuming that that sample is representative is flawed and is a
> classic example of survivorship bias. If we have learned anything from the
> Space experiment and from years of strategy discussions, it is that the
> tools we currently have do not, in fact, work just fine for a large number
> of people, whose voices are missing from our discussions and content.
> 
> -- 
> Guillaume Paumier
> (he/him)
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Juergen Fenn]

Am 19.02.20 um 22:52 Uhr schrieb Yaroslav Blanter:
>> Quit trying to make us TwitFaceTube. The tools we already have work just
>> fine.
>>
> Apparently not if people go there en masse instead of using on-wiki
> channels.


Most people do not go to TwitFaceTube in order to publish something
about themselves, but they use the closed channels those services
provide. That makes a difference. On-wiki everything is public by default.

Regards,
Jürgen.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Risker]

I do think that there are benefits in continuing to explore
WMF/movement-managed communication tools outside of the onwiki/IRC/mailing
list paradigm; we have long known that a lot of voices are excluded from
using these channels, and that is not helpful in growing a large,
international, multilingual movement.  We've also used YouTube for quite a
long time, and it has not been particularly problematic, but it's not
really a discussion platform, more an information-sharing one.  I noticed
that Wikimedia Space does have a higher than average concentration of posts
from outside the "English speaking" world that simply doesn't happen on
Meta.

On the other hand, I also agree that moving "official" communications to
platforms outside of the control of the WMF/movement,  like Facebook and
Twitter, are (for many of us in the movement) very problematic from a
privacy perspective, as well as unsatisfactory from an accessibility
perspective.

"Onwiki" is a nice concept.  The challenge here is that there are 700+
"onwiki" platforms, and only one hypothetically dedicated to inter-project
discussions, that being Meta.  I would venture to guess that probably
85-90% of Wikimedians either don't know Meta exists as a discussion
platform, or have tried to participate in a discussion there only to find
that it will often move very fast, is dominated by the English language
almost to the point of exclusion, and that their voice is drowned out
quickly or they are challenged in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable.
It's not helpful to take the "stay out of the kitchen if you can't stand
the heat" attitude, as it's neither welcoming nor accepting of other
ideas.  Meta is also very, very difficult to navigate; even I have
considerable difficulty finding material that I know for a fact exists on
that platform.  And we all know that Meta is not at all good at sharing
information and news about what's happening in other projects, or for
multiple projects (e.g., several projects in the same language, several
Wikisources, etc) to work together.

Wikimedia Space didn't feel like the right fit for us, either.  In
particular, I found it hard to figure out how to do things (like making
hyperlinks) that I've been doing comfortably on other existing platforms
for years.  But I think it is a worthwhile idea to keep looking for a
platform that isn't commercially/externally controlled (thus "selling" the
private information of our users) that works for more people. I think we
also need to figure out how to support multi-project discussions better
without pushing them all out to what is intended to be a global,
movement-wide platform (i.e., Meta).  Experiments are always worthwhile, as
they're opportunities to learn.  I will trust that Quim and the rest of the
Wikimedia Space team will be summarizing the positives and negatives about
this particular experiment.

Risker/Anne

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 17:49, Rebecca O'Neill 
wrote:

> I've been involved in the movement for ~7 years, took one look at IRC and
> walked very quickly the other way, having used it 15+ years ago. I'm all
> for retro, but that was taking it too far.
> Relying on a tool that has been been haemorrhaging users for years, and
> golden years are seen as around 20 years ago, seems less than ideal.
>
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 22:37, Todd Allen  wrote:
>
> > Then, they're welcome to pop on in any time. If they choose not to, well,
> > no one can make them. Anyone is able to use those tools.
> >
> > Todd
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 3:32 PM Guillaume Paumier <
> gpaum...@wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Le mer. 19 févr. 2020 à 10:31, Todd Allen  a
> > écrit :
> > >
> > > > I don't think anyone had bad intentions. It was just redundant.
> > > >
> > > > Real time communication is on IRC. Asynchronous communication is
> either
> > > on
> > > > the wiki, preferably, or on the mailing list.
> > > >
> > > > Quit trying to make us TwitFaceTube. The tools we already have work
> > just
> > > > fine.
> > >
> > >
> > > That perspective suffers from a lack of empathy. "The tools we already
> > > have" may work for the limited sample of the population who are
> currently
> > > using them. Assuming that that sample is representative is flawed and
> is
> > a
> > > classic example of survivorship bias. If we have learned anything from
> > the
> > > Space experiment and from years of strategy discussions, it is that the
> > > tools we currently have do not, in fact, work just fine for a large
> > number
> > > of people, whose voices are missing from our discussions and content.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Guillaume Paumier
> > > (he/him)
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
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> > > Unsubscribe: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Rebecca O'Neill]

I've been involved in the movement for ~7 years, took one look at IRC and
walked very quickly the other way, having used it 15+ years ago. I'm all
for retro, but that was taking it too far.
Relying on a tool that has been been haemorrhaging users for years, and
golden years are seen as around 20 years ago, seems less than ideal.

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 at 22:37, Todd Allen  wrote:

> Then, they're welcome to pop on in any time. If they choose not to, well,
> no one can make them. Anyone is able to use those tools.
>
> Todd
>
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 3:32 PM Guillaume Paumier 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Le mer. 19 févr. 2020 à 10:31, Todd Allen  a
> écrit :
> >
> > > I don't think anyone had bad intentions. It was just redundant.
> > >
> > > Real time communication is on IRC. Asynchronous communication is either
> > on
> > > the wiki, preferably, or on the mailing list.
> > >
> > > Quit trying to make us TwitFaceTube. The tools we already have work
> just
> > > fine.
> >
> >
> > That perspective suffers from a lack of empathy. "The tools we already
> > have" may work for the limited sample of the population who are currently
> > using them. Assuming that that sample is representative is flawed and is
> a
> > classic example of survivorship bias. If we have learned anything from
> the
> > Space experiment and from years of strategy discussions, it is that the
> > tools we currently have do not, in fact, work just fine for a large
> number
> > of people, whose voices are missing from our discussions and content.
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Paumier
> > (he/him)
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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> > 
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-- 
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Project Coordinator Wikimedia Community Ireland 
She/Her
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Todd Allen]

Then, they're welcome to pop on in any time. If they choose not to, well,
no one can make them. Anyone is able to use those tools.

Todd

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 3:32 PM Guillaume Paumier 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Le mer. 19 févr. 2020 à 10:31, Todd Allen  a écrit :
>
> > I don't think anyone had bad intentions. It was just redundant.
> >
> > Real time communication is on IRC. Asynchronous communication is either
> on
> > the wiki, preferably, or on the mailing list.
> >
> > Quit trying to make us TwitFaceTube. The tools we already have work just
> > fine.
>
>
> That perspective suffers from a lack of empathy. "The tools we already
> have" may work for the limited sample of the population who are currently
> using them. Assuming that that sample is representative is flawed and is a
> classic example of survivorship bias. If we have learned anything from the
> Space experiment and from years of strategy discussions, it is that the
> tools we currently have do not, in fact, work just fine for a large number
> of people, whose voices are missing from our discussions and content.
>
> --
> Guillaume Paumier
> (he/him)
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Guillaume Paumier]

Hi,

Le mer. 19 févr. 2020 à 10:31, Todd Allen  a écrit :

> I don't think anyone had bad intentions. It was just redundant.
>
> Real time communication is on IRC. Asynchronous communication is either on
> the wiki, preferably, or on the mailing list.
>
> Quit trying to make us TwitFaceTube. The tools we already have work just
> fine.


That perspective suffers from a lack of empathy. "The tools we already
have" may work for the limited sample of the population who are currently
using them. Assuming that that sample is representative is flawed and is a
classic example of survivorship bias. If we have learned anything from the
Space experiment and from years of strategy discussions, it is that the
tools we currently have do not, in fact, work just fine for a large number
of people, whose voices are missing from our discussions and content.

-- 
Guillaume Paumier
(he/him)
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Yaroslav Blanter]

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:31 PM Todd Allen  wrote:

>
> Quit trying to make us TwitFaceTube. The tools we already have work just
> fine.
>

Apparently not if people go there en masse instead of using on-wiki
channels.

Yaroslav


>
> Todd
>
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:41 AM Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:
>
> > I provided feedback previously on Space earlier and I could not find it
> now
> > but I assume it was taken into consideration when the decision was taken.
> > Without repeating it, let me remark that the two main questions, which
> > remained unsolved, were (i) what is the target audience and (ii) what is
> > the content to be discussed there. For (i), we have many different groups
> > with many different interests. We have project people (editors), active
> on
> > different projects, we have affiliate people, we have WMF people, there
> is
> > certain overlap between these categories, but I am afraid not much. They
> > have very different interests and vision. If I understand it correctly,
> the
> > idea was to bridge the gap between these categories (primarily, between
> WMF
> > and community), but it did not work - it is understandable that people
> who
> > never edited Wikipedia and have no interest editing it, do not find a
> topic
> > on the first Wikipedia contribution very appealing, and those for example
> > who deal with Wikipedia as their daily job are not so keen to discuss the
> > job on social media - I also have an exciting job but I do not have any
> > desire to discuss it anywhere in my free time. Concerning (ii), we have
> > people who were looking for something like social media, just to hang
> out,
> > we had people who wanted to discuss project and foundation issues which
> > they found important, we had people who were only posting announcements -
> > but I do not think we had general understanding why people should come to
> > Space to discuss, and what they should discuss. There are discussions
> going
> > on in the projects. Meta started as a cross-product (and cross-language)
> > discussion venue, but now it is essentially dead - I long ago stopped
> > following my watchlist there. The mailing lists are mainly dead or at
> least
> > half-dead. Understandably, people went to FB and Twitter - they will
> > discover at some point that there are serious privacy issues, and, in
> > addition, this is like Wild West where you are on your own (I had my FB
> > account disabled for alleged copyright violations last year, and there is
> > nothing I can do about it), but before they discover it I am not sure why
> > they should go to any other platform to discuss - what? There might be
> some
> > room for a social media platform run by WMF, but it should be very well
> > discussed what exactly we expect, what we can provide, and how this can
> be
> > done. I would recommend a community conversation - not a "community
> > consultation", when a decision has already been taken, and the
> > "consultation" is used to legitimize this decision, but a real
> > brainstorming, and see what the stakeholders are and what they want. I am
> > afraid though that it would be difficult to organize even this
> > brainstorming and collect a sufficient number of responses to make
> > meaningful conclusions.
> >
> > (There were opinions voiced that the Space would never take off because
> it
> > is run by WMF who would erase any criticism - well, I have not seen this
> > happening. This would not be my concern at this point.)
> >
> > Despite my skepticism, I believe that people who were running the Space
> and
> > people who invested into the Space clearly had good intentions, and
> whereas
> > things did not work at the end, I would like to thank them - mainly Elena
> > and Quim I guess.
> >
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 3:35 PM Quim Gil  wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you for all the feedback. After scanning different channels, we
> > have
> > > a wide range of opinions which reflect how deep and complex the problem
> > of
> > > cross-wiki collaboration is, and also how differently the Space
> prototype
> > > and this decision is being perceived. We will process this feedback and
> > > integrate it in the lessons learned. If you have more feedback or
> > > questions, please share. This conversation is important.
> > >
> > > The channels we are watching:
> > >
> > > *
> https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/3184
> > > *
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space#Next_steps_on_Wikimedia_Space
> > > *
> > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2020-February/094269.html
> > > and replies
> > > *
> > >
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/2699004306814050/
> > >
> > > If you are aware of more conversations related to this announcement,
> > please
> > > share them here as well.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:30 AM Quim Gil  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Todd Allen]

I don't think anyone had bad intentions. It was just redundant.

Real time communication is on IRC. Asynchronous communication is either on
the wiki, preferably, or on the mailing list.

Quit trying to make us TwitFaceTube. The tools we already have work just
fine.

Todd

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 10:41 AM Yaroslav Blanter  wrote:

> I provided feedback previously on Space earlier and I could not find it now
> but I assume it was taken into consideration when the decision was taken.
> Without repeating it, let me remark that the two main questions, which
> remained unsolved, were (i) what is the target audience and (ii) what is
> the content to be discussed there. For (i), we have many different groups
> with many different interests. We have project people (editors), active on
> different projects, we have affiliate people, we have WMF people, there is
> certain overlap between these categories, but I am afraid not much. They
> have very different interests and vision. If I understand it correctly, the
> idea was to bridge the gap between these categories (primarily, between WMF
> and community), but it did not work - it is understandable that people who
> never edited Wikipedia and have no interest editing it, do not find a topic
> on the first Wikipedia contribution very appealing, and those for example
> who deal with Wikipedia as their daily job are not so keen to discuss the
> job on social media - I also have an exciting job but I do not have any
> desire to discuss it anywhere in my free time. Concerning (ii), we have
> people who were looking for something like social media, just to hang out,
> we had people who wanted to discuss project and foundation issues which
> they found important, we had people who were only posting announcements -
> but I do not think we had general understanding why people should come to
> Space to discuss, and what they should discuss. There are discussions going
> on in the projects. Meta started as a cross-product (and cross-language)
> discussion venue, but now it is essentially dead - I long ago stopped
> following my watchlist there. The mailing lists are mainly dead or at least
> half-dead. Understandably, people went to FB and Twitter - they will
> discover at some point that there are serious privacy issues, and, in
> addition, this is like Wild West where you are on your own (I had my FB
> account disabled for alleged copyright violations last year, and there is
> nothing I can do about it), but before they discover it I am not sure why
> they should go to any other platform to discuss - what? There might be some
> room for a social media platform run by WMF, but it should be very well
> discussed what exactly we expect, what we can provide, and how this can be
> done. I would recommend a community conversation - not a "community
> consultation", when a decision has already been taken, and the
> "consultation" is used to legitimize this decision, but a real
> brainstorming, and see what the stakeholders are and what they want. I am
> afraid though that it would be difficult to organize even this
> brainstorming and collect a sufficient number of responses to make
> meaningful conclusions.
>
> (There were opinions voiced that the Space would never take off because it
> is run by WMF who would erase any criticism - well, I have not seen this
> happening. This would not be my concern at this point.)
>
> Despite my skepticism, I believe that people who were running the Space and
> people who invested into the Space clearly had good intentions, and whereas
> things did not work at the end, I would like to thank them - mainly Elena
> and Quim I guess.
>
> Yaroslav
>
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 3:35 PM Quim Gil  wrote:
>
> > Thank you for all the feedback. After scanning different channels, we
> have
> > a wide range of opinions which reflect how deep and complex the problem
> of
> > cross-wiki collaboration is, and also how differently the Space prototype
> > and this decision is being perceived. We will process this feedback and
> > integrate it in the lessons learned. If you have more feedback or
> > questions, please share. This conversation is important.
> >
> > The channels we are watching:
> >
> > * https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/3184
> > *
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space#Next_steps_on_Wikimedia_Space
> > *
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2020-February/094269.html
> > and replies
> > *
> >
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/2699004306814050/
> >
> > If you are aware of more conversations related to this announcement,
> please
> > share them here as well.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:30 AM Quim Gil  wrote:
> >
> > > Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to
> > experiment
> > > with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation,
> and
> > > showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Yaroslav Blanter]

I provided feedback previously on Space earlier and I could not find it now
but I assume it was taken into consideration when the decision was taken.
Without repeating it, let me remark that the two main questions, which
remained unsolved, were (i) what is the target audience and (ii) what is
the content to be discussed there. For (i), we have many different groups
with many different interests. We have project people (editors), active on
different projects, we have affiliate people, we have WMF people, there is
certain overlap between these categories, but I am afraid not much. They
have very different interests and vision. If I understand it correctly, the
idea was to bridge the gap between these categories (primarily, between WMF
and community), but it did not work - it is understandable that people who
never edited Wikipedia and have no interest editing it, do not find a topic
on the first Wikipedia contribution very appealing, and those for example
who deal with Wikipedia as their daily job are not so keen to discuss the
job on social media - I also have an exciting job but I do not have any
desire to discuss it anywhere in my free time. Concerning (ii), we have
people who were looking for something like social media, just to hang out,
we had people who wanted to discuss project and foundation issues which
they found important, we had people who were only posting announcements -
but I do not think we had general understanding why people should come to
Space to discuss, and what they should discuss. There are discussions going
on in the projects. Meta started as a cross-product (and cross-language)
discussion venue, but now it is essentially dead - I long ago stopped
following my watchlist there. The mailing lists are mainly dead or at least
half-dead. Understandably, people went to FB and Twitter - they will
discover at some point that there are serious privacy issues, and, in
addition, this is like Wild West where you are on your own (I had my FB
account disabled for alleged copyright violations last year, and there is
nothing I can do about it), but before they discover it I am not sure why
they should go to any other platform to discuss - what? There might be some
room for a social media platform run by WMF, but it should be very well
discussed what exactly we expect, what we can provide, and how this can be
done. I would recommend a community conversation - not a "community
consultation", when a decision has already been taken, and the
"consultation" is used to legitimize this decision, but a real
brainstorming, and see what the stakeholders are and what they want. I am
afraid though that it would be difficult to organize even this
brainstorming and collect a sufficient number of responses to make
meaningful conclusions.

(There were opinions voiced that the Space would never take off because it
is run by WMF who would erase any criticism - well, I have not seen this
happening. This would not be my concern at this point.)

Despite my skepticism, I believe that people who were running the Space and
people who invested into the Space clearly had good intentions, and whereas
things did not work at the end, I would like to thank them - mainly Elena
and Quim I guess.

Yaroslav

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 3:35 PM Quim Gil  wrote:

> Thank you for all the feedback. After scanning different channels, we have
> a wide range of opinions which reflect how deep and complex the problem of
> cross-wiki collaboration is, and also how differently the Space prototype
> and this decision is being perceived. We will process this feedback and
> integrate it in the lessons learned. If you have more feedback or
> questions, please share. This conversation is important.
>
> The channels we are watching:
>
> * https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/3184
> *
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space#Next_steps_on_Wikimedia_Space
> *
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2020-February/094269.html
> and replies
> *
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/2699004306814050/
>
> If you are aware of more conversations related to this announcement, please
> share them here as well.
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:30 AM Quim Gil  wrote:
>
> > Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to
> experiment
> > with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
> > showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
> > goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the
> Foundation
> > has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to
> fill
> > a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> > new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so
> that
> > we may share them with the movement.
> >
> > To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Quim Gil]

Thank you for all the feedback. After scanning different channels, we have
a wide range of opinions which reflect how deep and complex the problem of
cross-wiki collaboration is, and also how differently the Space prototype
and this decision is being perceived. We will process this feedback and
integrate it in the lessons learned. If you have more feedback or
questions, please share. This conversation is important.

The channels we are watching:

* https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/t/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/3184
*
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space#Next_steps_on_Wikimedia_Space
*
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2020-February/094269.html
and replies
*
https://www.facebook.com/groups/wikipediaweekly/permalink/2699004306814050/

If you are aware of more conversations related to this announcement, please
share them here as well.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:30 AM Quim Gil  wrote:

> Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to experiment
> with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
> showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
> goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the Foundation
> has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to fill
> a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so that
> we may share them with the movement.
>
> To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
> https://space.wmflabs.org/2020/02/18/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/
>
> We have learned a lot from this initiative and want to thank all Space
> users [2] for their time and contributions. We also invite everyone
> interested in documenting lessons learned and discussing next steps to join
> us in taking this effort even further, either at the About Wikimedia Space
> category in Discuss [3] or the Space talk page in Meta [4].
>
> [1]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Space/Editorial_guidelines#How_to_get_started
> [2] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/u?period=all
> [3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/about-wikimedia-space/2
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space
>
> --
> Quim Gil (he/him)
> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
>


-- 
Quim Gil (he/him)
Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[James Salsman]

> ... it has been a mistake to keep spinning off new discussion
> platforms, in the hope that the next one will be different and controllable
> and totally replace everything else. This has been an anti-pattern for a
> decade. Far better to make a real investment (including both a social and a
> technical investment) in the actual community platforms based on MediaWiki,

Apparently the plan is to try something completely new other than
Wikis from scratch:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Recommendations/Plan_Infrastructure_Scalability

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Fæ]

Thankyou Pharos for expressing the issue so clearly.

In the last 2 days, purely as part of our Wikimedia projects, I have felt
/obliged/ to contribute to discussions on Telegram, Twitter, Facebook, Zoom
and IRC (and at least 2 other platforms in a passive way). All of these
discussion spaces are used by our community to talk about our Wikimedia
community issues or to work together in parallel to the normal and more
permanent on-wiki talk pages of Wikipedia, Commons, Meta... Honestly, I do
not see the point of spinning off a fringe Wikimedia alternate that in
practice cannot be expected to match the well tested and well-understood
capabilities of the mainstream applications.

Fae

On Tue, 18 Feb 2020 at 20:18, Michael Peel  wrote:

>
>
> > On 18 Feb 2020, at 19:53, Pharos  wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 8:49 AM Samuel Klein  wrote:
> >
> >> Phase V confirmed! -- I hope this means related features (a calendar +
> >> forum :) are getting included in mediawiki propre...
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >
> > Indeed, it has been a mistake to keep spinning off new discussion
> > platforms, in the hope that the next one will be different and
> controllable
> > and totally replace everything else. This has been an anti-pattern for a
> > decade. Far better to make a real investment (including both a social
> and a
> > technical investment) in the actual community platforms based on
> MediaWiki,
> > where many of the ideas that were developed for Space could be rather
> more
> > fruitfully applied, and the existing eforts by good people not be put to
> > waste.
>
> I completely agree - investing in the core platform the way to go. See you
> all on-wiki with everyone else?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
> ___
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-- 
fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Michael Peel]

> On 18 Feb 2020, at 19:53, Pharos  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 8:49 AM Samuel Klein  wrote:
> 
>> Phase V confirmed! -- I hope this means related features (a calendar +
>> forum :) are getting included in mediawiki propre...
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> Indeed, it has been a mistake to keep spinning off new discussion
> platforms, in the hope that the next one will be different and controllable
> and totally replace everything else. This has been an anti-pattern for a
> decade. Far better to make a real investment (including both a social and a
> technical investment) in the actual community platforms based on MediaWiki,
> where many of the ideas that were developed for Space could be rather more
> fruitfully applied, and the existing eforts by good people not be put to
> waste.

I completely agree - investing in the core platform the way to go. See you all 
on-wiki with everyone else?

Thanks,
Mike
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Pharos]

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 8:49 AM Samuel Klein  wrote:

> Phase V confirmed! -- I hope this means related features (a calendar +
> forum :) are getting included in mediawiki propre...
>
> 
>

Indeed, it has been a mistake to keep spinning off new discussion
platforms, in the hope that the next one will be different and controllable
and totally replace everything else. This has been an anti-pattern for a
decade. Far better to make a real investment (including both a social and a
technical investment) in the actual community platforms based on MediaWiki,
where many of the ideas that were developed for Space could be rather more
fruitfully applied, and the existing eforts by good people not be put to
waste.

Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)


> On Tue., Feb. 18, 2020, 5:31 a.m. Quim Gil,  wrote:
>
> > Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to
> experiment
> > with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
> > showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
> > goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the
> Foundation
> > has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to
> fill
> > a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> > new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so
> that
> > we may share them with the movement.
> >
> > To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
> > https://space.wmflabs.org/2020/02/18/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/
> >
> > We have learned a lot from this initiative and want to thank all Space
> > users [2] for their time and contributions. We also invite everyone
> > interested in documenting lessons learned and discussing next steps to
> join
> > us in taking this effort even further, either at the About Wikimedia
> Space
> > category in Discuss [3] or the Space talk page in Meta [4].
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Space/Editorial_guidelines#How_to_get_started
> > [2] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/u?period=all
> > [3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/about-wikimedia-space/2
> > [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space
> >
> > --
> > Quim Gil (he/him)
> > Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Toni Ristovski]

Thank you Quim for this unfortunate information.

This is surprise for me, as Wikimedia Space is given too little time to
evolve. I really like this idea and I remembered when people asked me on
conferences what we miss as a movement, I would say that we miss place like
*Space* where you can see what others do, to see discussion about
everything, to ask ordinary questions, to share some news, to share some
beautiful moments as editors. So, this decision for me is wrong. I don`t
know who is responsible for this, but they should ask for thoughts/opinions
of people on Space and outside of Space and then to decide this kind of
decision.

Now, we are back on looking information about what is happening in
Wiki-world on your personal will, to search across haotic Meta, to read
newsletters that is too long, or to open Facebook, which I personally avoid.

And most importantly, Space for me was a channel that I could rely when I
have some problem (especially technical), but I don`t know who is
responsible in Foundation, and I would want to ask something without
annoying hundreds people on e-mail, so I would share my issue on Space, and
someone will help. So, in conclusion, finally something good happens in
movement, and Foundation decide to ruined it and kill it on a very
beginning.

Toni
editor and admin on Macedonian Wikipedia

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 4:14 PM Ziko van Dijk  wrote:

> Hello Quim,
>
> Thank you for the information. It was not quite a surprise, as we did not
> hear much of Space in the last time, and I must confess myself that I only
> used it in the iniatial phase and somewhat later. I feel sorry for those
> who invested time and energy in it.
>
> I am interested in a report later, about what worked and what did not work,
> and maybe why.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ziko
>
>
>
>
>
> Am Di., 18. Feb. 2020 um 11:31 Uhr schrieb Quim Gil :
>
> > Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to
> experiment
> > with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
> > showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
> > goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the
> Foundation
> > has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to
> fill
> > a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> > new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so
> that
> > we may share them with the movement.
> >
> > To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
> > https://space.wmflabs.org/2020/02/18/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/
> >
> > We have learned a lot from this initiative and want to thank all Space
> > users [2] for their time and contributions. We also invite everyone
> > interested in documenting lessons learned and discussing next steps to
> join
> > us in taking this effort even further, either at the About Wikimedia
> Space
> > category in Discuss [3] or the Space talk page in Meta [4].
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Space/Editorial_guidelines#How_to_get_started
> > [2] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/u?period=all
> > [3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/about-wikimedia-space/2
> > [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space
> >
> > --
> > Quim Gil (he/him)
> > Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
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> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Ziko van Dijk]

Hello Quim,

Thank you for the information. It was not quite a surprise, as we did not
hear much of Space in the last time, and I must confess myself that I only
used it in the iniatial phase and somewhat later. I feel sorry for those
who invested time and energy in it.

I am interested in a report later, about what worked and what did not work,
and maybe why.

Kind regards,
Ziko





Am Di., 18. Feb. 2020 um 11:31 Uhr schrieb Quim Gil :

> Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to experiment
> with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
> showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
> goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the Foundation
> has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to fill
> a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so that
> we may share them with the movement.
>
> To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
> https://space.wmflabs.org/2020/02/18/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/
>
> We have learned a lot from this initiative and want to thank all Space
> users [2] for their time and contributions. We also invite everyone
> interested in documenting lessons learned and discussing next steps to join
> us in taking this effort even further, either at the About Wikimedia Space
> category in Discuss [3] or the Space talk page in Meta [4].
>
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Space/Editorial_guidelines#How_to_get_started
> [2] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/u?period=all
> [3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/about-wikimedia-space/2
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space
>
> --
> Quim Gil (he/him)
> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Samuel Klein]

Phase V confirmed! -- I hope this means related features (a calendar +
forum :) are getting included in mediawiki propre...



On Tue., Feb. 18, 2020, 5:31 a.m. Quim Gil,  wrote:

> Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to experiment
> with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
> showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
> goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the Foundation
> has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to fill
> a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so that
> we may share them with the movement.
>
> To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
> https://space.wmflabs.org/2020/02/18/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/
>
> We have learned a lot from this initiative and want to thank all Space
> users [2] for their time and contributions. We also invite everyone
> interested in documenting lessons learned and discussing next steps to join
> us in taking this effort even further, either at the About Wikimedia Space
> category in Discuss [3] or the Space talk page in Meta [4].
>
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Space/Editorial_guidelines#How_to_get_started
> [2] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/u?period=all
> [3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/about-wikimedia-space/2
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space
>
> --
> Quim Gil (he/him)
> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Camelia Boban]

Hi Quim and Paulo,

Like anything we lose as a movement (see also Wikipedia Zero), I am very
sorry for this decision, for those who worked and for those who were
comfortable with the platform.
I was not, as I am not with Phabricator (despite being a developer). It's a
matter of habits and preferences, of course, so my opinion has the same
value as someone else who loves them.
I don't really know the whole situation (expenses, number of users etc),
but I think we shouldn't have the same philosophy as Google, which lets go
of products that - not only from a commercial point of view, but in terms
of use - they didn't have the turnout expected.
We are different and I may be sentimental, but I expect that we keep the
projects standing even if we have only one user.

Camelia


--
*Camelia Boban*

*| Java EE Developer |*



*Affiliations Committee - **Wikimedia Foundation*
Diversity WG for Wikimedia Strategy 2030
*Interwiki Women
 | **Wiki
Loves Sport  | Wiki Loves
Fashion *
WMIT  - WMSE
 - WMAR
 - WMCH
 Member

M. +39 3383385545
camelia.bo...@gmail.com
*Aissa Technologies* * | *Twitter
 *|* *LinkedIn
*
*Wikipedia  **| **WikiDonne
UG * | *WikiDonne Project
 *












Il giorno mar 18 feb 2020 alle ore 11:44 Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Hello Quim,
>
> I knew this was a possibility, but it still is a big surprise for me that
> the WMF has not recognized the enormous value and potential of Wikimedia
> Space, which was a space incredibly more friendlier and easier to use than
> anything I've ever seen onwiki. As we discussed last November in
> WikiIndaba, it only needed to be somehow connected to the Wikimedia
> Projects, so that we could get the notifications there - as a standalone
> project it's very difficult to follow, since apart from real life we have
> mail, social networks, chats - and the wikimedia projects constantly
> draining attention and competing for time.
>
> But... All the investment, all the information shared there, will be lost?
>
> I suspect that after this last debacle of Wikimedia Space, it will be
> considerably more difficult for people to embark in more new WMF
> adventures. It was already difficult with this one.
>
> Bad decisions at top level -> lots of money wasted, valuable WMF staff time
> and expertise wasted... and a lot of volunteer time and expertise, and
> community goodwill burned for nothing, like if we have plenty of that.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> Quim Gil  escreveu no dia terça, 18/02/2020 à(s)
> 10:31:
>
> > Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to
> experiment
> > with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
> > showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
> > goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the
> Foundation
> > has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to
> fill
> > a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> > new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so
> that
> > we may share them with the movement.
> >
> > To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
> > https://space.wmflabs.org/2020/02/18/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/
> >
> > We have learned a lot from this initiative and want to thank all Space
> > users [2] for their time and contributions. We also invite everyone
> > interested in documenting lessons learned and discussing next steps to
> join
> > us in taking this effort even further, either at the About Wikimedia
> Space
> > category in Discuss [3] or the Space talk page in Meta [4].
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Space/Editorial_guidelines#How_to_get_started
> > [2] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/u?period=all
> > [3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/about-wikimedia-space/2
> > [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space
> >
> > --
> > Quim Gil (he/him)
> > Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Hello Quim,

I knew this was a possibility, but it still is a big surprise for me that
the WMF has not recognized the enormous value and potential of Wikimedia
Space, which was a space incredibly more friendlier and easier to use than
anything I've ever seen onwiki. As we discussed last November in
WikiIndaba, it only needed to be somehow connected to the Wikimedia
Projects, so that we could get the notifications there - as a standalone
project it's very difficult to follow, since apart from real life we have
mail, social networks, chats - and the wikimedia projects constantly
draining attention and competing for time.

But... All the investment, all the information shared there, will be lost?

I suspect that after this last debacle of Wikimedia Space, it will be
considerably more difficult for people to embark in more new WMF
adventures. It was already difficult with this one.

Bad decisions at top level -> lots of money wasted, valuable WMF staff time
and expertise wasted... and a lot of volunteer time and expertise, and
community goodwill burned for nothing, like if we have plenty of that.

Best,
Paulo

Quim Gil  escreveu no dia terça, 18/02/2020 à(s) 10:31:

> Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to experiment
> with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
> showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
> goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the Foundation
> has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to fill
> a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
> new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so that
> we may share them with the movement.
>
> To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
> https://space.wmflabs.org/2020/02/18/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/
>
> We have learned a lot from this initiative and want to thank all Space
> users [2] for their time and contributions. We also invite everyone
> interested in documenting lessons learned and discussing next steps to join
> us in taking this effort even further, either at the About Wikimedia Space
> category in Discuss [3] or the Space talk page in Meta [4].
>
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Space/Editorial_guidelines#How_to_get_started
> [2] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/u?period=all
> [3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/about-wikimedia-space/2
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space
>
> --
> Quim Gil (he/him)
> Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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[Wikimedia-l] Next steps on Wikimedia Space

[Quim Gil]

Last year, the Wikimedia Foundation launched Wikimedia Space to experiment
with new ways to connect volunteers, increase movement participation, and
showcase community stories. While we remain committed to this important
goal, based on lessons learned through the Space prototype, the Foundation
has decided to close Discuss Space. The Space blog, which continues to fill
a need to share news for the movement by the movement, will continue in a
new home. Please continue to submit community-focused stories [1], so that
we may share them with the movement.

To learn more about the next steps, check the full announcement at
https://space.wmflabs.org/2020/02/18/next-steps-on-wikimedia-space/

We have learned a lot from this initiative and want to thank all Space
users [2] for their time and contributions. We also invite everyone
interested in documenting lessons learned and discussing next steps to join
us in taking this effort even further, either at the About Wikimedia Space
category in Discuss [3] or the Space talk page in Meta [4].

[1]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Space/Editorial_guidelines#How_to_get_started
[2] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/u?period=all
[3] https://discuss-space.wmflabs.org/c/about-wikimedia-space/2
[4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Space

--
Quim Gil (he/him)
Senior Manager of Community Relations @ Wikimedia Foundation
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Qgil-WMF
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