Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Pine W]

Hi all,

OK, I've been reading this plus the emails that I got off-list. It seems
that there are a lot of diverse ideas and priorities, and probably the best
way to gather and prioritize them is through a strategic planning process
somewhat like what WMF and the community did in the last time around. I'm
not sensing a lot of appetite for strategic change that involves moving
away from the WMF hosting model, although am sensing interest in ongoing
conversations with WMF about expectations for how WMF behaves toward the
community especially around software deployments, and interest in a number
of other Meta-level issues. As probably could be expected, a lot of people
say "I'm upset about X" or "I want to change Y" but the level of interest
in walking through the steps that it takes to actually do something about X
or Y beyond talking about them is limited to a relatively small number of
people. I want to thank those who spoke up and hope that everyone stays
active in the already underway WMF-led strategic planning process as that
goes forward, and that we keep our ideas ready for when the right time
comes to provide input into that process.

Thanks again. This is of course not the end of the discussion about
strategic issues, so please continue talking if you wish. (:

Pine




On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Marc A. Pelletier 
wrote:

> On 07/14/2014 10:39 AM, Martijn Hoekstra wrote:
> > I still
> > believe, that the success of English Wikipedia hinges on the ability of
> the
> > community to generate content, and that that's the absolutely most
> > important part of English Wikipedia - all else, including consumption by
> > end users - follows from that.
>
> I don't believe that's where the value lies.  While I am certain we have
> a number of contributors who write for the sake of writing; ultimately
> we are *all* beholden to the readers.  Collecting the world's knowledge
> and making it available only has value insofar as it is, in fact, used
> as such.
>
> The servers running, the editors editing, the coders coding are all
> necessary components but all, in the end, subservient to the actual
> objective of serving the readers.  Everything else is replacable.
>
> In my long stint on the meta-side of the biggest project (and keeping
> abreast of what goes on elsewhere) I saw a very great deal of
> self-important navel gazing, but very little actual consideration that
> the "community" (if there is such a thing) is only a means to the actual
> end.  The WMF certainly does not do everything perfectly, but at the
> very least it actually /attempts/ to keep an eye on the prize.
>
> -- Marc
>
>
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Marc A. Pelletier]

On 07/14/2014 01:25 PM, Fæ wrote:
> Yes, some people may get scholarships to travel to Wikimania or other
> conferences, however my understanding is that this would be limited to
> those presenting.

Scholarships are also made available to attendees, specifically to allow
those who would not otherwise have the financial resources to do so the
opportunity to participate in those events.

Remote collaboration is perfectly workable; most of the ops team is
remote and we do the vast bulk of our communication online, though
email, on IRC and in hangouts.

But there /is/ value in the opportunity to connect physically with peers
and colleagues - even if infrequently.  Virtual participation also has
value (and I agree with you that we should strive to increase it
especially for big events like Wikimania) but they do not replace
meatspace entirely.

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Marc A. Pelletier]

On 07/14/2014 10:39 AM, Martijn Hoekstra wrote:
> I still
> believe, that the success of English Wikipedia hinges on the ability of the
> community to generate content, and that that's the absolutely most
> important part of English Wikipedia - all else, including consumption by
> end users - follows from that.

I don't believe that's where the value lies.  While I am certain we have
a number of contributors who write for the sake of writing; ultimately
we are *all* beholden to the readers.  Collecting the world's knowledge
and making it available only has value insofar as it is, in fact, used
as such.

The servers running, the editors editing, the coders coding are all
necessary components but all, in the end, subservient to the actual
objective of serving the readers.  Everything else is replacable.

In my long stint on the meta-side of the biggest project (and keeping
abreast of what goes on elsewhere) I saw a very great deal of
self-important navel gazing, but very little actual consideration that
the "community" (if there is such a thing) is only a means to the actual
end.  The WMF certainly does not do everything perfectly, but at the
very least it actually /attempts/ to keep an eye on the prize.

-- Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Fæ]

On 14/07/2014, Jane Darnell  wrote:
> Well maybe all of you are independently wealthy, have laptop and and will
> travel, but as I see it, for the rest of us, without travel budget
> facilitated by WMF and chapters, I don't see how we can achieve meetups to
> do any brainstorming at all. And poring over lists of ideas tucked away in
> the recesses of the deep dark Meta is not my idea of a good time (but as
> ever, thanks for the links Nemo)

We have very different views of the world. I have no expectation that
Wikimedia donations should pay for me to go to local
Wikimeets/meet-ups (which cost me about £3 in bus travel). Similarly,
as a member of the Steering Group for the GWToolset, I was happy to
have several significant strategy meetings via Google Hangout, which
cost the participants precisely nothing and Wikimedia nothing in
expenses, even though we were deciding how to invest a few hundred
thousand euros.

Yes, some people may get scholarships to travel to Wikimania or other
conferences, however my understanding is that this would be limited to
those presenting.

A lot can be done using virtual tools, and we should all be experts in
making this work well. I would much rather virtual discussion be used
for maximum effect and the default choice, so that flying people
around the planet is kept for special events with high measurable
returns for the money spent. I still regret that for every Wikimania
so far, we have not cracked the virtual participation problem by
live-streaming and accepting questions via live-chat or similar.
Anyway, this is a bit tangential...

Fae
-- 
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Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Bohdan Melnychuk]

I'm too lazy to read all above and below but I think we might try. 
Wikicommunities blackouted wikis protest to some political laws in some 
countries which is beyond not-a-soapbox pillar but they can't stand 
WMF's pressure. Should be vice versa IMHO.

--Base

14.07.2014 10:25, Pine W написав(ла):

Hi community members,

I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC meeting
regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to negotiate
with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
strategic plan and develop strategic options.

Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are not
likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and laying
some foundations.

Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:

1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF for
hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
aligned with community values.

2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.

Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:

3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at Wikimedia's
founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.

4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.

I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested in
participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how we
want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have time.
If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may need
additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.

If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond to
me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level of
the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we need
to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.

Thanks,

Pine
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Jane Darnell]

Well maybe all of you are independently wealthy, have laptop and and will
travel, but as I see it, for the rest of us, without travel budget
facilitated by WMF and chapters, I don't see how we can achieve meetups to
do any brainstorming at all. And poring over lists of ideas tucked away in
the recesses of the deep dark Meta is not my idea of a good time (but as
ever, thanks for the links Nemo)


On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Gryllida  wrote:

> Pine,
>
> We need more of
>
> - decentralized development so that people can write new gadgets and
> extensions easier like firefox jetpack for example.. Each project needs its
> own editing and feedback tools that it would happily design on wiki in
> collaborative fashion
>
> - means to encourage more content work from community with less noise and
> drama
>
> I could expect wmf to do the former but the latter is up to us all, you
> and me...
>
> As people replied, & please mind that you do not know the situation in
> other projects and languages - proper feedback or outreach software is
> needed here and community can shape a spec at least, which the wmf can code
> or fund through its Ieg grants program. I am sure you could draft the idea
> and help it evolve, then apply for a grant and hire someone to do it.
>
> The brainstorming might be too early, I am yet to see any proper analysis
> of what the users /really/ need or have trouble with (no, not learning the
> markup or getting articles or uploads in, unlike the current focuses). We
> need a lot more information/feedback here than a brainstorming session...
>
> Gryllida.
>
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2014, at 17:25, Pine W wrote:
> > Hi community members,
> >
> > I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC
> meeting
> > regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
> > our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
> > days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
> > especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to negotiate
> > with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
> > strategic plan and develop strategic options.
> >
> > Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are
> not
> > likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and
> laying
> > some foundations.
> >
> > Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:
> >
> > 1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF
> for
> > hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
> > aligned with community values.
> >
> > 2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.
> >
> > Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:
> >
> > 3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at Wikimedia's
> > founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.
> >
> > 4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.
> >
> > I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested in
> > participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how
> we
> > want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have
> time.
> > If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may need
> > additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.
> >
> > If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond to
> > me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level of
> > the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we need
> > to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
> > strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Pine
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Martijn Hoekstra]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> Hi community members,
>
> I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC meeting
> regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
> our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
> days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
> especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to negotiate
> with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
> strategic plan and develop strategic options.
>
> Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are not
> likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and laying
> some foundations.
>
> Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:
>
> 1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF for
> hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
> aligned with community values.
>

I think this isn't as mad as it may sound. It seems some editors of the
English Wikipedia have a strong dislike for many of the WMF decisions, and
distrust the WMF staff to make the calls that are best for our shared
goals, and vice versa. It's been often said that competition would be good
for the project. It would lead to duplicated effort, yes. It also gives the
opportunity to learn from each other. I have always believed, and I still
believe, that the success of English Wikipedia hinges on the ability of the
community to generate content, and that that's the absolutely most
important part of English Wikipedia - all else, including consumption by
end users - follows from that. A fork where one project is more content
creation focused, and one more end-user presentation focused, with strong
cooperation between the two projects would IMO be absolutely great. Who has
the keys to the servers is less important IMO (which also keeps the option
open for an "in-house fork").

As an aside, I don't think there is such a thing as "community values". I
sincerely doubt there is even such a thing as a "community", or "community
consensus", even for a single project (though it might (still) exist for
smaller projects), and certainly not for the WikiMedia movement as a whole.

-- Martijn
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Chris Keating]

>
>
>
> I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested in
> participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how we
> want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have time.
>

Hi Pine,

I think it would be much more productive to think about these kinds of
issues (and indeed those that Jane and Anders have brought up) inside a
Wikimedia movement strategic planning process, rather than trying to set up
a separate one (even more so, a separate one with an implicit assumption of
creating a project fork, which I think is what you're proposing).

I think your suggested solution is actually at a different scale to the
problem you're having. I can certainly see there are upset people. But I
think the way to move things forward would be to have more conversation
about "How quickly do technical developments from WMF need to go?" and "How
can we get a smoother relationship between WMF product developers and
long-term editors?". I think those are much more sensible conversations to
have, rather than either "Should MediaViewer be on or off by default?"
(that's been answered) or "How can I replace the Wikimedia Foundation with
something I like more?" (which is unlikely to achieve very much).

Regards,

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Gryllida]

Pine,

We need more of

- decentralized development so that people can write new gadgets and extensions 
easier like firefox jetpack for example.. Each project needs its own editing 
and feedback tools that it would happily design on wiki in collaborative fashion

- means to encourage more content work from community with less noise and drama

I could expect wmf to do the former but the latter is up to us all, you and 
me...

As people replied, & please mind that you do not know the situation in other 
projects and languages - proper feedback or outreach software is needed here 
and community can shape a spec at least, which the wmf can code or fund through 
its Ieg grants program. I am sure you could draft the idea and help it evolve, 
then apply for a grant and hire someone to do it.

The brainstorming might be too early, I am yet to see any proper analysis of 
what the users /really/ need or have trouble with (no, not learning the markup 
or getting articles or uploads in, unlike the current focuses). We need a lot 
more information/feedback here than a brainstorming session...

Gryllida.

On Mon, 14 Jul 2014, at 17:25, Pine W wrote:
> Hi community members,
> 
> I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC meeting
> regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
> our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
> days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
> especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to negotiate
> with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
> strategic plan and develop strategic options.
> 
> Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are not
> likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and laying
> some foundations.
> 
> Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:
> 
> 1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF for
> hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
> aligned with community values.
> 
> 2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.
> 
> Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:
> 
> 3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at Wikimedia's
> founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.
> 
> 4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.
> 
> I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested in
> participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how we
> want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have time.
> If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may need
> additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.
> 
> If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond to
> me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level of
> the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we need
> to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
> strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Pine
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Nathan]

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 3:25 AM, Pine W  wrote:

> Hi community members,
>
> I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC meeting
> regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
> our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
> days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
> especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to negotiate
> with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
> strategic plan and develop strategic options.
>
> Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are not
> likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and laying
> some foundations.
>
> Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:
>
> 1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF for
> hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
> aligned with community values.
>
> 2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.
>
> Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:
>
> 3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at Wikimedia's
> founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.
>
> 4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.
>
> I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested in
> participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how we
> want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have time.
> If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may need
> additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.
>
> If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond to
> me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level of
> the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we need
> to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
> strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pine


It seems like there are a number of more relevant strategic issues than who
hosts the sites. I know that the "power struggle" between some people on
the English Wikipedia and the WMF has captivated your attention for some
time, but it is a minor issue compared to the other challenges the movement
faces in achieving its mission.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Balázs Viczián, 14/07/2014 13:53:
> Imo all of the below and about 70-80% of the topics previously brough up in
> this thread can be solved/actioned/discussed/amended/etc by the community

So you're confirming that they're on topic for the proposal :) which was
«Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own strategic
plan and develop strategic options».
Interestingly, no topic so far was mentioned by more than one person
among those who replied so far. Such a list of topics would therefore
result in everyone talking past each other.
To avoid that, maybe topic proposals should be about generic issues and
medium/long-term goals rather than about your pet peeve or pet proposal.
As a reminder, thousands of such "atomic" items are already best
collected on our wikis, for instance
* https://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Proposals
* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Issues
* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Proposals
where I encourage you to add stubs for each idea you have. The problem
is always identifying a common ground where to actually meet and build a
shared understanding of the way forward. (Or even just a self-consistent
summary of all opinions.) Read
https://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force subpages again, 5 years
later, if you doubt.

Nemo

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Fæ]

On 14/07/2014, Jane Darnell  wrote:
> Balazs,
> It's interesting that you feel that way, because I disagree entirely. Out
> of curiosity, have you ever met another Wikipedian in real life, and do you
> feel that meet-ups are beneficial to the movement?
> Jane

Jane,

"Without a single person involved (ever) from WMF or any of the
chapters" has nothing to do with meeting other Wikimedians in real
life (or Wikipedians for that matter). The comment was about whether
strategic discussion automatically means the WMF or Chapters need to
be in the middle of it. They don't, even at real life meetings.

As an example, in the UK our Wiki-meets are not the domain of
Wikimedia UK, they are independent. Keeping them that way ensures that
if the community of UK Wikimedians have issues with their local
Chapter or WMF funding, then we are not in the bizarre position of
only being able to talk to each other at chapter/WMF sponsored and
controlled events or in chapter/WMF controlled forums. If this were
the case then it would rapidly only become possible to talk about
"Public Relations positive" affairs.

Volunteer community independence and associated free speech are
generally thought to be a good thing for the purposes of governance,
though not everyone agrees, or at least, by their actions support this
philosophy when faced with "Public Relations non-positive" subjects.

Fae
-- 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Jane Darnell]

Balazs,
It's interesting that you feel that way, because I disagree entirely. Out
of curiosity, have you ever met another Wikipedian in real life, and do you
feel that meet-ups are beneficial to the movement?
Jane


On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 1:53 PM, Balázs Viczián  wrote:

> Bear in mind WikiPedia =/= WikiMedia.
>
> Imo all of the below and about 70-80% of the topics previously brough up in
> this thread can be solved/actioned/discussed/amended/etc by the community
> solely through Village Pump (or other relevant forums) without a single
> person involved (ever) from WMF or any of the chapters.
>
> Balazs
>
> 1) exposing missing, confusing, or outdated local policies by using policy
>
> > comparisons cross-wiki
> > 2) handling multi-language issues such as highlighting
> article-for-deletion
> > discussions for each language in which the article exists, not just the
> > local one
> > 3) defining an "embedded system" factor by automatic checking of
> similarity
> > of metadata of articles across languages and projects
> > 4) how can we emphasize techniques that attract contributions that are
> 100%
> > non-controversial and fun at the same time?
> > 5) how can we organize local x-language meet-up days across the globe
> using
> > our international network of chapters?
> > 6) how can we set up a new "Wikicouch" project whereby Wikipedians can
> > couch surf (I mean more group editting rather than sleeping) with other
> > Wikipedians' across the globe
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Anders Wennersten <
> > m...@anderswennersten.se> wrote:
> >
> > > I am interested in community strategy but have very different topics in
> > > mind
> > > *how should we handle the 50-100 projects that today in practice are
> > dead.
> > > They are open for anyone (besides vandals that already infest these) to
> > > hi-jack
> > > *how should we handle the 5-10 projects that are already hi-jacket and
> > > spreading info contradictory to our values? (think belarous wikipedia)
> > > *Could we find means to help struggling communitiies, there are several
> > > having a hard time neutrilizing POV, internal fight and even having
> > problem
> > > neutralising vandal attacks
> > > *how could we spread best practice to make certain our project do not
> > > unnecessary diverge
> > > *and the complex of bot generation over several projects - wikidata
> where
> > > efforts for the moment are not harmonized as they ought to
> > > etc
> > >
> > > Anders
> > >
> > > Pine W skrev 2014-07-14 09:25:
> > >
> > >  Hi community members,
> > >>
> > >> I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC
> > meeting
> > >> regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially
> developing
> > >> our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past
> few
> > >> days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and
> pessimism,
> > >> especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to
> > negotiate
> > >> with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
> > >> strategic plan and develop strategic options.
> > >>
> > >> Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are
> > not
> > >> likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and
> > >> laying
> > >> some foundations.
> > >>
> > >> Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:
> > >>
> > >> 1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF
> > for
> > >> hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
> > >> aligned with community values.
> > >>
> > >> 2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.
> > >>
> > >> Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:
> > >>
> > >> 3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at
> Wikimedia's
> > >> founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.
> > >>
> > >> 4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.
> > >>
> > >> I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested
> > in
> > >> participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about
> how
> > we
> > >> want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have
> > time.
> > >> If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may
> need
> > >> additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.
> > >>
> > >> If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond
> > to
> > >> me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level
> > of
> > >> the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we
> > need
> > >> to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
> > >> strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Pine
> > >> ___
> > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guideli

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Balázs Viczián]

Bear in mind WikiPedia =/= WikiMedia.

Imo all of the below and about 70-80% of the topics previously brough up in
this thread can be solved/actioned/discussed/amended/etc by the community
solely through Village Pump (or other relevant forums) without a single
person involved (ever) from WMF or any of the chapters.

Balazs

1) exposing missing, confusing, or outdated local policies by using policy

> comparisons cross-wiki
> 2) handling multi-language issues such as highlighting article-for-deletion
> discussions for each language in which the article exists, not just the
> local one
> 3) defining an "embedded system" factor by automatic checking of similarity
> of metadata of articles across languages and projects
> 4) how can we emphasize techniques that attract contributions that are 100%
> non-controversial and fun at the same time?
> 5) how can we organize local x-language meet-up days across the globe using
> our international network of chapters?
> 6) how can we set up a new "Wikicouch" project whereby Wikipedians can
> couch surf (I mean more group editting rather than sleeping) with other
> Wikipedians' across the globe
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Anders Wennersten <
> m...@anderswennersten.se> wrote:
>
> > I am interested in community strategy but have very different topics in
> > mind
> > *how should we handle the 50-100 projects that today in practice are
> dead.
> > They are open for anyone (besides vandals that already infest these) to
> > hi-jack
> > *how should we handle the 5-10 projects that are already hi-jacket and
> > spreading info contradictory to our values? (think belarous wikipedia)
> > *Could we find means to help struggling communitiies, there are several
> > having a hard time neutrilizing POV, internal fight and even having
> problem
> > neutralising vandal attacks
> > *how could we spread best practice to make certain our project do not
> > unnecessary diverge
> > *and the complex of bot generation over several projects - wikidata where
> > efforts for the moment are not harmonized as they ought to
> > etc
> >
> > Anders
> >
> > Pine W skrev 2014-07-14 09:25:
> >
> >  Hi community members,
> >>
> >> I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC
> meeting
> >> regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
> >> our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
> >> days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
> >> especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to
> negotiate
> >> with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
> >> strategic plan and develop strategic options.
> >>
> >> Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are
> not
> >> likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and
> >> laying
> >> some foundations.
> >>
> >> Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:
> >>
> >> 1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF
> for
> >> hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
> >> aligned with community values.
> >>
> >> 2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.
> >>
> >> Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:
> >>
> >> 3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at Wikimedia's
> >> founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.
> >>
> >> 4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.
> >>
> >> I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested
> in
> >> participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how
> we
> >> want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have
> time.
> >> If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may need
> >> additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.
> >>
> >> If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond
> to
> >> me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level
> of
> >> the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we
> need
> >> to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
> >> strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Pine
> >> ___
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> >> 
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Jane Darnell]

I am interested in community strategy to tackle such things as
1) exposing missing, confusing, or outdated local policies by using policy
comparisons cross-wiki
2) handling multi-language issues such as highlighting article-for-deletion
discussions for each language in which the article exists, not just the
local one
3) defining an "embedded system" factor by automatic checking of similarity
of metadata of articles across languages and projects
4) how can we emphasize techniques that attract contributions that are 100%
non-controversial and fun at the same time?
5) how can we organize local x-language meet-up days across the globe using
our international network of chapters?
6) how can we set up a new "Wikicouch" project whereby Wikipedians can
couch surf (I mean more group editting rather than sleeping) with other
Wikipedians' across the globe


On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Anders Wennersten <
m...@anderswennersten.se> wrote:

> I am interested in community strategy but have very different topics in
> mind
> *how should we handle the 50-100 projects that today in practice are dead.
> They are open for anyone (besides vandals that already infest these) to
> hi-jack
> *how should we handle the 5-10 projects that are already hi-jacket and
> spreading info contradictory to our values? (think belarous wikipedia)
> *Could we find means to help struggling communitiies, there are several
> having a hard time neutrilizing POV, internal fight and even having problem
> neutralising vandal attacks
> *how could we spread best practice to make certain our project do not
> unnecessary diverge
> *and the complex of bot generation over several projects - wikidata where
> efforts for the moment are not harmonized as they ought to
> etc
>
> Anders
>
> Pine W skrev 2014-07-14 09:25:
>
>  Hi community members,
>>
>> I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC meeting
>> regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
>> our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
>> days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
>> especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to negotiate
>> with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
>> strategic plan and develop strategic options.
>>
>> Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are not
>> likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and
>> laying
>> some foundations.
>>
>> Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:
>>
>> 1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF for
>> hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
>> aligned with community values.
>>
>> 2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.
>>
>> Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:
>>
>> 3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at Wikimedia's
>> founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.
>>
>> 4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.
>>
>> I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested in
>> participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how we
>> want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have time.
>> If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may need
>> additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.
>>
>> If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond to
>> me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level of
>> the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we need
>> to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
>> strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Pine
>> ___
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> 
>>
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Anders Wennersten]

I am interested in community strategy but have very different topics in mind
*how should we handle the 50-100 projects that today in practice are 
dead. They are open for anyone (besides vandals that already infest 
these) to hi-jack
*how should we handle the 5-10 projects that are already hi-jacket and 
spreading info contradictory to our values? (think belarous wikipedia)
*Could we find means to help struggling communitiies, there are several 
having a hard time neutrilizing POV, internal fight and even having 
problem neutralising vandal attacks
*how could we spread best practice to make certain our project do not 
unnecessary diverge
*and the complex of bot generation over several projects - wikidata 
where efforts for the moment are not harmonized as they ought to

etc

Anders

Pine W skrev 2014-07-14 09:25:

Hi community members,

I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC meeting
regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to negotiate
with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
strategic plan and develop strategic options.

Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are not
likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and laying
some foundations.

Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:

1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF for
hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
aligned with community values.

2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.

Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:

3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at Wikimedia's
founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.

4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.

I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested in
participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how we
want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have time.
If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may need
additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.

If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond to
me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level of
the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we need
to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.

Thanks,

Pine
___
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Richard Ames]

On 14/07/14 17:25, Pine W wrote:

Hi community members,






Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:

1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF for
hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
aligned with community values.


This idea would split the community to the disadvantage of both 'halves'.

I suspect the majority of editors (and certainly readers) have no idea 
about these difficulties between the foundation and its volunteers.


I do think the WMF should be paying attention!

Regards, Richard.

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[Wikimedia-l] Interest in a community strategic planning meeting?

[Pine W]

Hi community members,

I'm wondering how many people might be interested in having an IRC meeting
regarding the community's relationship to WMF and potentially developing
our own strategic plan that would be independent of WMF. In the past few
days I've heard some defense of WMF but mainly criticism and pessimism,
especially people recalling past hurts and feeling powerless to negotiate
with WMF. Perhaps it's time that we in the community create our own
strategic plan and develop strategic options.

Please note that this would be a long-term planning meeting and we are not
likely to make major decisions, but we would start brainstorming and laying
some foundations.

Topics of possible discussion regarding our relationship with WMF:

1. Strategic options, such as finding alternative organizations to WMF for
hosting Wikimedia sites or creating a new hosting organization that is
aligned with community values.

2. Activism at the Board and grassroots levels.

Topics of possible discussion regarding other strategic issues:

3. Internal reform of the community, such as a fresh look at Wikimedia's
founding principles and the Five Pillars, including civility.

4. What we can do as a community about our active editor statistics.

I expect this would be an interesting meeting if people are interested in
participating, and I hope that we would brainstorm some ideas about how we
want to move forward on all of these questions and others if we have time.
If there are many participants, which would be *great*, then we may need
additional meetings or to move the conversation on-wiki.

If you're interested, you can respond on list but feel free to respond to
me off-list also. I'm just trying to get a sense of the interest level of
the community. I hear a lot of people being upset but what I feel we need
to know is how many people would be interested in creating a long-term
strategic plan and brainstorming strategic options.

Thanks,

Pine
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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