Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2013-01-12 Thread Anonymous User
Dear all, dear Tim,

I want to extend the thank you from the Uzbek Wikipedia community. I let
them use their own words (although, translated for the benefit of this
list).

user 1: wow, it's great! who has done it
user 2: wikimedia programmers
user 1; super! real heroes!
user 3: thank you, thank you, thank you!
user 4: so now we're waiting for google to index uzwiki
user 2: it's awesome, i cannot even express how awesome it is
user 2: Thank you guys for helping us. And special thanks to Tim Starling.
user 2: We're going to introduce Tim Starling day in Uzbek Wikipedia as well

I also pinged my contacts at Google, hoping that they can schedule the
reindexing soon. Thanks to everyone involved.

Rahmat va salomlar!





On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 6:17 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.orgwrote:

 On 24/12/12 20:23, Anonymous User wrote:
  I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If
 you'd
  ask me, I would suggest to be very serious, but we are not under a
  deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and
  setting the rel=caonical would already be really, really helpful.

 This is done now. It would be good if Google could crawl
 uz.wikipedia.org to update the canonical URLs.

 In case anyone is wondering, I don't think this would be a good thing
 to do on zh.wikipedia.org. The Chinese government would happily block
 *.wikipedia.org port 443 if it became popular. At least the current
 situation provides a way to work around keyword filtering for people
 who are sufficiently motivated -- if HTTPS was blocked, it would be
 much less useful.

 -- Tim Starling


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2013-01-06 Thread Tim Starling
On 24/12/12 20:23, Anonymous User wrote:
 I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If you'd
 ask me, I would suggest to be very serious, but we are not under a
 deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and
 setting the rel=caonical would already be really, really helpful.

This is done now. It would be good if Google could crawl
uz.wikipedia.org to update the canonical URLs.

In case anyone is wondering, I don't think this would be a good thing
to do on zh.wikipedia.org. The Chinese government would happily block
*.wikipedia.org port 443 if it became popular. At least the current
situation provides a way to work around keyword filtering for people
who are sufficiently motivated -- if HTTPS was blocked, it would be
much less useful.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2013-01-06 Thread Emmanuel Engelhart
Le 07/01/2013 06:17, Tim Starling a écrit :
 On 24/12/12 20:23, Anonymous User wrote:
 I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If you'd
 ask me, I would suggest to be very serious, but we are not under a
 deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and
 setting the rel=caonical would already be really, really helpful.
 
 This is done now. It would be good if Google could crawl
 uz.wikipedia.org to update the canonical URLs.
 
 In case anyone is wondering, I don't think this would be a good thing
 to do on zh.wikipedia.org. The Chinese government would happily block
 *.wikipedia.org port 443 if it became popular. At least the current
 situation provides a way to work around keyword filtering for people
 who are sufficiently motivated -- if HTTPS was blocked, it would be
 much less useful.

I have released last week a ZIM file of the Wikipedia in Uzbek to make
it available offline.

This is a pretty poor replacement for the online Wikipedia, but in some
cases this may help people accessing our contents.

Everything is on the Kiwix homepage http://www.kiwix.org.

Bundle with Kiwix:
http://download.kiwix.org/portable/wikipedia_uz_all.zip.torrent

Kind regards
Emmanuel




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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-28 Thread Anonymous User
Thank you everyone for your help, and I especially appreciate Sumanah for
setting up the bug and making the RT ticket happen. Unfortunately, I cannot
track the progress of the RT ticket, but I am sure someone will keep us
posted on the Bugzilla bug or on this list.

Eternal gratitude to everyone involved!



Regarding the discussion about the IP, here are my thoughts, but maybe I am
missing a number of the technical intricacies here:

I am not sure if I understand correctly, but having access through the IP
does not seem to improve the situation. Remember that access through https
is perfectly possible. So for anyone who really wants to access the wiki
and knows about the https-access, they can.

The problem are those people that do not know about it. There are no people
coming to the Uzbek Wikipedia through search engines, because they link to
the http-protocol version of the URLs. That is why making the https-Version
canonical and thus the addresses the search engines eventually point to
much more useful.

One could make the IP-Adress directly canonical -- otherwise setting up
this extra-IP would not bring any advantage -- and thus avoid DNS, but this
is not required to resolve the current problem, and it sure would not be
very pretty. Also, IP-banning a single IP through an ISP is all but hard
for an ISP. And anyway, it would need to be configured to setup a canonical
URL, which is the currently suggested next step anyway.

Therefore I would suggest to refrain from setting up a specific IP (besides
the technicality of having too few IPs around), at least for now, and
concentrate on canonizing the HTTPS protocol (as summed up in the Bug).

Thank you again!





On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 3:05 AM, John Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote:

 How many languages _need_ this?

 Is it only one language-project?

 If you only need one IP address, to avoid censorship by one country, it
 should be achievable.

 John Vandenberg.
 sent from Galaxy Note
 On Dec 28, 2012 4:21 AM, Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org wrote:

  
   I wish that  http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and
   https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the
   foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP
   addresses for each language's Wikipedia.
 
  As one of the network folks, I will answer this.   We do not have
  enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each
  project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4
  addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we
  will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing
  IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite
  strict with their new IPv4 allocations.
 
  If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few
 links
  https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3
  https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html
  https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6)
 
 
  Leslie
 
  --
  Leslie Carr
  Wikimedia Foundation
  AS 14907, 43821
  http://as14907.peeringdb.com/
 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread Marc A. Pelletier

On 27/12/2012 5:54 AM, Anonymous User wrote:

thank you again for your answers so far. I would have had hoped to have
more voices participating, but everyone who did agreed that it should be
done.



I think this is the closest I've ever seen to universal support on 
Wikimedia-l ever.  :-)


-- Coren / Marc


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread Sumana Harihareswara
On 12/27/2012 10:46 AM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
 On 27/12/2012 5:54 AM, Anonymous User wrote:
 thank you again for your answers so far. I would have had hoped to have
 more voices participating, but everyone who did agreed that it should be
 done.

 
 I think this is the closest I've ever seen to universal support on
 Wikimedia-l ever.  :-)
 
 -- Coren / Marc

So, I just asked Chris Steipp (WMF engineer in charge of software
security) for his thoughts on this:

  I can add a, I think it's a good idea to the list, but Ops will need to be 
 ok with the shift. I don't think it would be a problem, but it does mean 
 google spidering our https site, and that may concern them. I think ops would 
 also be the ones to implement the actual change.

So in my opinion we can move discussion over to
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43466 (when serving
Uzbek Wikipedia, make HTTPS canonical).  I've asked a bug wrangler to
contact Ops about it as well.

-- 
Sumana Harihareswara
Engineering Community Manager
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread Sumana Harihareswara
On 12/27/2012 03:08 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:

 So in my opinion we can move discussion over to
 https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43466 (when serving
 Uzbek Wikipedia, make HTTPS canonical).  I've asked a bug wrangler to
 contact Ops about it as well.

(Maybe I should just include a link to
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Glossary in every email I send because I
do use a lot of jargon!  Sorry about that.)

-- 
Sumana Harihareswara
Engineering Community Manager
Wikimedia Foundation

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread Leslie Carr

 I wish that  http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and
 https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the
 foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP
 addresses for each language's Wikipedia.

As one of the network folks, I will answer this.   We do not have
enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each
project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4
addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we
will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing
IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite
strict with their new IPv4 allocations.

If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few links
https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3
https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6)


Leslie

-- 
Leslie Carr
Wikimedia Foundation
AS 14907, 43821
http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread Marco Fleckinger




Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org schrieb:


 I wish that  http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and
 https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the
 foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP
 addresses for each language's Wikipedia.

As one of the network folks, I will answer this.   We do not have
enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each
project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4
addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we
will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing
IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite
strict with their new IPv4 allocations.

If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few
links
https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3
https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6)

Just an idea, which is not very beautiful: What about a router forwarding ports 
to the correct machine by using iptables? Would that also work in connection 
with search engines?

Cheers

Marco

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread Leslie Carr
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Fleckinger
marco.fleckin...@wikipedia.at wrote:




 Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org schrieb:


 I wish that  http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and
 https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the
 foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP
 addresses for each language's Wikipedia.

As one of the network folks, I will answer this.   We do not have
enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each
project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4
addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we
will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing
IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite
strict with their new IPv4 allocations.

If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few
links
https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3
https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html
https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6)

 Just an idea, which is not very beautiful: What about a router forwarding 
 ports to the correct machine by using iptables? Would that also work in 
 connection with search engines?

Are you suggesting we use different nonstandard ports for each
different wiki/language combo that resides on the same IP ?


 Cheers

 Marco

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AS 14907, 43821
http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread Marco Fleckinger




Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org schrieb:

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Fleckinger
marco.fleckin...@wikipedia.at wrote: 
 
 Just an idea, which is not very beautiful: What about a router
forwarding ports to the correct machine by using iptables? Would that
also work in connection with search engines?

Are you suggesting we use different nonstandard ports for each
different wiki/language combo that resides on the same IP ?

Yes exactly!


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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread Leslie Carr
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Marco Fleckinger
marco.fleckin...@wikipedia.at wrote:




 Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org schrieb:

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Fleckinger
marco.fleckin...@wikipedia.at wrote:

 Just an idea, which is not very beautiful: What about a router
forwarding ports to the correct machine by using iptables? Would that
also work in connection with search engines?

Are you suggesting we use different nonstandard ports for each
different wiki/language combo that resides on the same IP ?

 Yes exactly!


I guess that is theoretically possible with a more intrusive load
balancer in the middle. We need the HOST information from the http
header to be added as we have our varnish caches serving multiple
services, not one(or more) per language/project combo.  I'm pretty
sure that lvs doesn't have this ability (which we use).  Some large
commercial load balancers have the ability to rewrite some headers,
but that would be a pretty intensive operation (think lots of cpu
needed, since it needs to terminate SSL and then rewrite headers) and
would probably be expensive.  If you have another way you think we can
do this, I am all ears!

We may want to move this discussion to wikitech-l as all the technical
discussions probably bore most of the people on wikimedia-l

Leslie


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http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-27 Thread John Vandenberg
How many languages _need_ this?

Is it only one language-project?

If you only need one IP address, to avoid censorship by one country, it
should be achievable.

John Vandenberg.
sent from Galaxy Note
On Dec 28, 2012 4:21 AM, Leslie Carr lc...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 
  I wish that  http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and
  https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the
  foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP
  addresses for each language's Wikipedia.

 As one of the network folks, I will answer this.   We do not have
 enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each
 project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4
 addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we
 will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing
 IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite
 strict with their new IPv4 allocations.

 If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few links
 https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3
 https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html
 https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6)


 Leslie

 --
 Leslie Carr
 Wikimedia Foundation
 AS 14907, 43821
 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-24 Thread Anonymous User
On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Tim Starling tstarl...@wikimedia.org
 wrote:

 Is it enough to set the link rel=canonical, or is it also
 necessary to redirect?


When I asked the nice folks at Google's search team, they answered me the
following:

* The best answer would for them to use rel=canonical tags so that
http://example.wikimedia.uz points to http*s*://example.wikimedia.uz. So
I'd send them this page:
http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=139394 and
tell them to start doing that. If they're very serious (and it's a small
property, so there's not much risk) then they could make every http page
301 to the https version as well.



I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If you'd
ask me, I would suggest to be very serious, but we are not under a
deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and
setting the rel=caonical would already be really, really helpful.

Thank you all for your encouraging comments so far.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan

2012-12-23 Thread Tim Starling
On 23/12/12 22:15, Anonymous User wrote:
 We discussed both with search engine providers and Wikimedia developers if
 there is a way to resolve this issue, and there is: by making the HTTPS
 version of the Uzbek Wikipedia canonical the search engines would list the
 HTTPS version in the search results, thus circumventing the glitch. As far
 as I understood the technical folks at Wikimedia this can be done with a
 small amount of effort.

Is it enough to set the link rel=canonical, or is it also
necessary to redirect?

Either way, the Squid cache would have to be purged, then the search
engines would have to reread that site.

-- Tim Starling


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