Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
Dear all, dear Tim, I want to extend the "thank you" from the Uzbek Wikipedia community. I let them use their own words (although, translated for the benefit of this list). user 1: wow, it's great! who has done it user 2: wikimedia programmers user 1; super! real heroes! user 3: thank you, thank you, thank you! user 4: so now we're waiting for google to index uzwiki user 2: it's awesome, i cannot even express how awesome it is user 2: Thank you guys for helping us. And special thanks to Tim Starling. user 2: We're going to introduce Tim Starling day in Uzbek Wikipedia as well I also pinged my contacts at Google, hoping that they can schedule the reindexing soon. Thanks to everyone involved. Rahmat va salomlar! On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 6:17 AM, Tim Starling wrote: > On 24/12/12 20:23, Anonymous User wrote: > > I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If > you'd > > ask me, I would suggest to be "very serious", but we are not under a > > deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and > > setting the rel="caonical" would already be really, really helpful. > > This is done now. It would be good if Google could crawl > uz.wikipedia.org to update the canonical URLs. > > In case anyone is wondering, I don't think this would be a good thing > to do on zh.wikipedia.org. The Chinese government would happily block > *.wikipedia.org port 443 if it became popular. At least the current > situation provides a way to work around keyword filtering for people > who are sufficiently motivated -- if HTTPS was blocked, it would be > much less useful. > > -- Tim Starling > > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
Le 07/01/2013 06:17, Tim Starling a écrit : > On 24/12/12 20:23, Anonymous User wrote: >> I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If you'd >> ask me, I would suggest to be "very serious", but we are not under a >> deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and >> setting the rel="caonical" would already be really, really helpful. > > This is done now. It would be good if Google could crawl > uz.wikipedia.org to update the canonical URLs. > > In case anyone is wondering, I don't think this would be a good thing > to do on zh.wikipedia.org. The Chinese government would happily block > *.wikipedia.org port 443 if it became popular. At least the current > situation provides a way to work around keyword filtering for people > who are sufficiently motivated -- if HTTPS was blocked, it would be > much less useful. I have released last week a ZIM file of the Wikipedia in Uzbek to make it available offline. This is a pretty poor replacement for the online Wikipedia, but in some cases this may help people accessing our contents. Everything is on the Kiwix homepage http://www.kiwix.org. Bundle with Kiwix: http://download.kiwix.org/portable/wikipedia_uz_all.zip.torrent Kind regards Emmanuel signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
On 24/12/12 20:23, Anonymous User wrote: > I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If you'd > ask me, I would suggest to be "very serious", but we are not under a > deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and > setting the rel="caonical" would already be really, really helpful. This is done now. It would be good if Google could crawl uz.wikipedia.org to update the canonical URLs. In case anyone is wondering, I don't think this would be a good thing to do on zh.wikipedia.org. The Chinese government would happily block *.wikipedia.org port 443 if it became popular. At least the current situation provides a way to work around keyword filtering for people who are sufficiently motivated -- if HTTPS was blocked, it would be much less useful. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
Thank you everyone for your help, and I especially appreciate Sumanah for setting up the bug and making the RT ticket happen. Unfortunately, I cannot track the progress of the RT ticket, but I am sure someone will keep us posted on the Bugzilla bug or on this list. Eternal gratitude to everyone involved! Regarding the discussion about the IP, here are my thoughts, but maybe I am missing a number of the technical intricacies here: I am not sure if I understand correctly, but having access through the IP does not seem to improve the situation. Remember that access through https is perfectly possible. So for anyone who really wants to access the wiki and knows about the https-access, they can. The problem are those people that do not know about it. There are no people coming to the Uzbek Wikipedia through search engines, because they link to the http-protocol version of the URLs. That is why making the https-Version canonical and thus the addresses the search engines eventually point to much more useful. One could make the IP-Adress directly canonical -- otherwise setting up this extra-IP would not bring any advantage -- and thus avoid DNS, but this is not required to resolve the current problem, and it sure would not be very pretty. Also, IP-banning a single IP through an ISP is all but hard for an ISP. And anyway, it would need to be configured to setup a canonical URL, which is the currently suggested next step anyway. Therefore I would suggest to refrain from setting up a specific IP (besides the technicality of having too few IPs around), at least for now, and concentrate on canonizing the HTTPS protocol (as summed up in the Bug). Thank you again! On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 3:05 AM, John Vandenberg wrote: > How many languages _need_ this? > > Is it only one language-project? > > If you only need one IP address, to avoid censorship by one country, it > should be achievable. > > John Vandenberg. > sent from Galaxy Note > On Dec 28, 2012 4:21 AM, "Leslie Carr" wrote: > > > > > > > I wish that http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and > > > https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the > > > foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP > > > addresses for each language's Wikipedia. > > > > As one of the network folks, I will answer this. We do not have > > enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each > > project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4 > > addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we > > will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing > > IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite > > strict with their new IPv4 allocations. > > > > If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few > links > > https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3 > > https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html > > https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6) > > > > > > Leslie > > > > -- > > Leslie Carr > > Wikimedia Foundation > > AS 14907, 43821 > > http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ > > > > ___ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
How many languages _need_ this? Is it only one language-project? If you only need one IP address, to avoid censorship by one country, it should be achievable. John Vandenberg. sent from Galaxy Note On Dec 28, 2012 4:21 AM, "Leslie Carr" wrote: > > > > I wish that http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and > > https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the > > foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP > > addresses for each language's Wikipedia. > > As one of the network folks, I will answer this. We do not have > enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each > project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4 > addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we > will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing > IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite > strict with their new IPv4 allocations. > > If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few links > https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3 > https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html > https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6) > > > Leslie > > -- > Leslie Carr > Wikimedia Foundation > AS 14907, 43821 > http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Marco Fleckinger wrote: > > > > > Leslie Carr schrieb: > >>On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Fleckinger >> wrote: > >>> Just an idea, which is not very beautiful: What about a router >>forwarding ports to the correct machine by using iptables? Would that >>also work in connection with search engines? >> >>Are you suggesting we use different nonstandard ports for each >>different wiki/language combo that resides on the same IP ? >> > Yes exactly! > I guess that is theoretically possible with a more intrusive load balancer in the middle. We need the HOST information from the http header to be added as we have our varnish caches serving multiple services, not one(or more) per language/project combo. I'm pretty sure that lvs doesn't have this ability (which we use). Some large commercial load balancers have the ability to rewrite some headers, but that would be a pretty intensive operation (think lots of cpu needed, since it needs to terminate SSL and then rewrite headers) and would probably be expensive. If you have another way you think we can do this, I am all ears! We may want to move this discussion to wikitech-l as all the technical discussions probably bore most of the people on wikimedia-l Leslie > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
Leslie Carr schrieb: >On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Fleckinger > wrote: >> Just an idea, which is not very beautiful: What about a router >forwarding ports to the correct machine by using iptables? Would that >also work in connection with search engines? > >Are you suggesting we use different nonstandard ports for each >different wiki/language combo that resides on the same IP ? > Yes exactly! ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Marco Fleckinger wrote: > > > > > Leslie Carr schrieb: > >>> >>> I wish that http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and >>> https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the >>> foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP >>> addresses for each language's Wikipedia. >> >>As one of the network folks, I will answer this. We do not have >>enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each >>project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4 >>addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we >>will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing >>IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite >>strict with their new IPv4 allocations. >> >>If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few >>links >>https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3 >>https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html >>https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6) >> > Just an idea, which is not very beautiful: What about a router forwarding > ports to the correct machine by using iptables? Would that also work in > connection with search engines? Are you suggesting we use different nonstandard ports for each different wiki/language combo that resides on the same IP ? > > Cheers > > Marco > > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l -- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
Leslie Carr schrieb: >> >> I wish that http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and >> https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the >> foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP >> addresses for each language's Wikipedia. > >As one of the network folks, I will answer this. We do not have >enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each >project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4 >addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we >will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing >IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite >strict with their new IPv4 allocations. > >If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few >links >https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3 >https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html >https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6) > Just an idea, which is not very beautiful: What about a router forwarding ports to the correct machine by using iptables? Would that also work in connection with search engines? Cheers Marco ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
> > I wish that http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and > https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the > foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP > addresses for each language's Wikipedia. As one of the network folks, I will answer this. We do not have enough public IP(v4)s for an address for each language in each project, and unless someone gives us a major donation of IPv4 addresses (anyone have a spare /20 laying around?), I don't think we will be able to make this happen as we are frugal with our existing IPs and the allocating authorities (RIPE and ARIN) are being quite strict with their new IPv4 allocations. If you'd like to read more about IP allocation policies, here's a few links https://www.arin.net/policy/nrpm.html#four3 https://www.arin.net/resources/request/ipv4_depletion.html https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-553 (see section 5.6) Leslie -- Leslie Carr Wikimedia Foundation AS 14907, 43821 http://as14907.peeringdb.com/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
On 12/27/2012 03:08 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
> So in my opinion we can move discussion over to
> https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43466 ("when serving
> Uzbek Wikipedia, make HTTPS canonical"). I've asked a bug wrangler to
> contact Ops about it as well.
(Maybe I should just include a link to
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Glossary in every email I send because I
do use a lot of jargon! Sorry about that.)
--
Sumana Harihareswara
Engineering Community Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
On 12/27/2012 10:46 AM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote:
> On 27/12/2012 5:54 AM, Anonymous User wrote:
>> thank you again for your answers so far. I would have had hoped to have
>> more voices participating, but everyone who did agreed that it should be
>> done.
>>
>
> I think this is the closest I've ever seen to "universal support" on
> Wikimedia-l ever. :-)
>
> -- Coren / Marc
So, I just asked Chris Steipp (WMF engineer in charge of software
security) for his thoughts on this:
> I can add a, "I think it's a good idea" to the list, but Ops will need to be
> ok with the shift. I don't think it would be a problem, but it does mean
> google spidering our https site, and that may concern them. I think ops would
> also be the ones to implement the actual change.
So in my opinion we can move discussion over to
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43466 ("when serving
Uzbek Wikipedia, make HTTPS canonical"). I've asked a bug wrangler to
contact Ops about it as well.
--
Sumana Harihareswara
Engineering Community Manager
Wikimedia Foundation
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
On 27/12/2012 5:54 AM, Anonymous User wrote: thank you again for your answers so far. I would have had hoped to have more voices participating, but everyone who did agreed that it should be done. I think this is the closest I've ever seen to "universal support" on Wikimedia-l ever. :-) -- Coren / Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
Dear all, thank you again for your answers so far. I would have had hoped to have more voices participating, but everyone who did agreed that it should be done. If you want to state your opinion -- whether support or worry -- on setting HTTPS canonical for the Uzbek Wikipedia, please do so. I am sure it will support the Foundation in making the right decision. All the best greetings. On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Anonymous User wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Tim Starling > wrote: > > Is it enough to set the , or is it also >> necessary to redirect? >> > > When I asked the nice folks at Google's search team, they answered me the > following: > > * The best answer would for them to use rel=canonical tags so that > http://example.wikimedia.uz points to http*s*://example.wikimedia.uz. So > I'd send them this page: > http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=139394 and > tell them to start doing that. If they're very serious (and it's a small > property, so there's not much risk) then they could make every http page > 301 to the https version as well. > > > > I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If you'd > ask me, I would suggest to be "very serious", but we are not under a > deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and > setting the rel="caonical" would already be really, really helpful. > > Thank you all for your encouraging comments so far. > > ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 1:15 AM, Tim Starling wrote: > Is it enough to set the , or is it also > necessary to redirect? > When I asked the nice folks at Google's search team, they answered me the following: * The best answer would for them to use rel=canonical tags so that http://example.wikimedia.uz points to http*s*://example.wikimedia.uz. So I'd send them this page: http://support.google.com/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=139394 and tell them to start doing that. If they're very serious (and it's a small property, so there's not much risk) then they could make every http page 301 to the https version as well. I don't know how much effort each of these two measures would be. If you'd ask me, I would suggest to be "very serious", but we are not under a deadline (the situation has been like this for more than a year now), and setting the rel="caonical" would already be really, really helpful. Thank you all for your encouraging comments so far. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
On 23/12/12 22:15, Anonymous User wrote: > We discussed both with search engine providers and Wikimedia developers if > there is a way to resolve this issue, and there is: by making the HTTPS > version of the Uzbek Wikipedia canonical the search engines would list the > HTTPS version in the search results, thus circumventing the glitch. As far > as I understood the technical folks at Wikimedia this can be done with a > small amount of effort. Is it enough to set the , or is it also necessary to redirect? Either way, the Squid cache would have to be purged, then the search engines would have to reread that site. -- Tim Starling ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
"Federico Leva (Nemo)" schrieb: >If, as I'd think, switching to HTTPS only is only a matter of a rather >simple configuration change (for a wiki like this that doesn't impact >load much), and has even a small chance to help in such an unfortunate >situation, then it should be done as soon as possible IMHO. > Apache allows virtual server config based on the used URL. Maybe one of Wikimedia's IP addresses could be used to show the Wikipedia in Uzbek? IMHO it is just a question of time, until https will also be redirected. Is it also be possible, that this is a cracker's work and not that of the ISP? Marco ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
If, as I'd think, switching to HTTPS only is only a matter of a rather simple configuration change (for a wiki like this that doesn't impact load much), and has even a small chance to help in such an unfortunate situation, then it should be done as soon as possible IMHO. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
Re: [Wikimedia-l] No access to the Uzbek Wikipedia in Uzbekistan
> The question this list would need to find agreement on is: should the Uzbek > Wikipedia be set up in a way that makes access via the HTTPS protocol the > canonical one? Certainly. There is already widespread agreement on supporting HTTPS in the archives, and no question that it should be canonical when ISPs or governments seek to block the HTTP access. Any government taking those measures is likely to take other measures which might put editors using HTTP instead of HTTPS at risk, so it makes abundant sense to do this if we have any respect for our editors' safety at all. I wish that http://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa and https://208.80.154.225/wiki/Bosh_Sahifa would work, too, but the foundation apparently can't or chooses not to afford separate IP addresses for each language's Wikipedia. The Foundation in years past would take advantage of the end of the annual fundraiser to write a thank you letter to donors which included other less well funded charity foundations and organization which the leadership would recommend endorsing. One of those foundations, the EFF, publishes this page with helpful background information: https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere One of the reasons that donor response was so strong this year is because this past January, the Foundation decided to join with the EFF and others in support of what turned out to be a very popular activism campaign against the proposed U.S. SOPA/PIPA legislation, primarily in the interest of the Foundation's legal and office actions staff which would have been substantially burdened with the task of removing links to external sites deemed infringing in ex parte court applications had the legislation become law. Can you imagine what would happen if the Foundation decided to support more than just their own staff and take action to support the nearly one fifth of long time editors who toil in near-poverty or impoverished conditions by with an activism campaign based on Chart 4 of http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2011/09/berg.htm or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Employment_growth_by_top_tax_rate.jpg or https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Yz3W7LVnwne79wiwxdqKiRuFRAyQX-JXIAbAeuWuVXk/edit#slide=id.p10 ? Best regards, James Salsman ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
